Conference wahoo::fishing

     If you're fishing strictly ponds and lakes, make sure the canoe
    has a keel to help it track straighter. In a river, a keel just
    hangs up on rocks. Get the kind of seat that you can (if you wish)
    attach a back to; it'll make a day's fishing a lot easier if you
    have something to lean against periodically.
    
    --"The Dice Man".
    

    Most of the big name manufacturers offer wide stable canoes designed
    for fishing and most have catalogs available at the dealers, check
    them out.
    
    I believe most manufacturers offer blems as well.  I know Old Town
    does.  You can even have your dealer order a blem for you.  I called
    Old Town last year about blems.  I was considering taking a ride
    up to look at what they had, but they said that most dealers could
    offer a blem at the same price that they would at the factory store.
                 
    Don Mac

    Have you checked out the Riverrat's notesfile? It's on Sage::Riverrat.
    
    jim e
    

    
    	Thanks for the inputs, Have you guys noticed if the color of
    the canoe has an effect on your fishing success??  
    
    - Rob
    

    We have a 17' Coleman canoe, made of poly-something. It's lightweight,
    easy to handle, tough, won't crack, and inexpensive ($300). We got
    ours on a special deal at MVP Sports, which included paddles, life
    jackets, and a car-top carrier (foam blocks w. straps) all for around
    $300 bucks. It has a keel, too.
    
    The down side is that it was a real pain to put together, but once
    that's done, nooo problem!
    
    Ed

    Rob,
    
    I've got a flat bottom pea-green Cadorette which is real beamy and
    has 3 keels along the bottom.  It tracks real straight on flat water.
    It is made of fiberglass and has aluminum gunnels.  Although
    Cadorette is out of business, they sold out to Three Rivers canoe
    company.  They're a little better priced than the Mad Rivers, et
    al.  You may want to check it out.
    
    Dave

    	I have a 15' fiberglass Old Town I picked up second hand. It's
    big enough for 2 people and small enough to be loaded/unloaded by
    one person. Brand new it goes for about $350. It has a wide flat
    bottom with about a 1" high keel from front to back and is very 
    stable for a canoe. It is also got a very rugged look and feel. 
    I'm no expert but I wouldn't settle for any less than an Old Town 
    when/if I ever need to buy another one.
    
    	RAYJ

    Rob,
    
      I would tend to agree with the other noters that favor the Old
    Town's and Mad River's. I canoed the Alagash wilderness waterway
    (starts in Baxter state pask, Maine) a few years ago. We had 3 canoes,
    all different brands. The one I was in most of the time was a 17'
    Mansfield with a keel. It was nice on the lakes, but was a little
    hairy in the rapids/shallow water. We ripped most of the keel off
    in the first section of rapids (nothing like mid-trip repairs).
    The other canoes in our group were a 17' Grummon (sp) aluminum and
    a 14' something (similar to Mansfield construction, can't remember
    the name). The Grummon was nice (light, sturdy, durable), but for 
    your application (fishing) it might be too noisy. This was all our
    own equipment.
    
      Most of the people we ran into that were on guided trips had Old
    Towns' and Mad River's. They were good river canoes. They had flat
    bottoms (no keel to catch on the rocks), and were very durable.
    None of them had much damage due to the rocks, and the molded hull
    seemed to be real rugged.
    
      If you ever get the chance to do any canoeing in Maine, you should
    give the Alagash waterway a try. Very beautiful trip and lots of
    wildlife (we saw 16 moose and 10 deer in 7 days on the water). The
    fishing wasn't the greatest but we went late in the year. We went
    in mid-August (water was low but we didn't have to contend with
    the black flies as much).
    
    -Ron-

      BTW, the Mansfield that I have was bought as a "blem" (factory
    second). If you decide to go this route, get there early. The factory
    was advertising the blem sale as starting at 8:00am one Saturday.
    I got their at 7:50am or so, and met several cars leaving the place
    already with canoes strapped on the top. Some people got there early
    (7:00am) to get the best picks, and they started selling before
    the advertised starting time. What a rip-off!!!
    
      The blem on my canoe is a cracked side rail, which was split by
    a misplaced screw (I hate it when that happens ;') ). Very minor
    damage, and I got it at a real good price.
    
    -Ron-

    
    Are you sure you want a canoe ?  Canoes are wonderfull, gracefull
    boats (when designed and made properly) but they are not the world's
    best fishing platform.  I've owned several canoes in the past, and
    would like still more, but if fishing were my main objective I'd
    get something different.  I'd buy a little jon boat or perhaps a 
    'scanoue' (coleman).    About the same price  (700-1000) as a good
    canoe and a better design for fishing.
    
    
    

We have a Merrimack; I think it's 16'. We bought it specifically for
fishing the little bitty places where neither our 14�' nor the 24' could
go. It's beamy enough to be stable; I've stood in it to fly cast, but I
don't make a steady habit of it. 

I heartily recommend glass or ABS over aluminum if fishing's your game.
We occasionally use a 17' Grumman aluminum; a fine canoe, extremely
strong, but N O I S Y !!! 

Our Merrimack weighs 75#. I'm soft, out of shape, and 5' 8". I can hoist
the canoe onto my shoulders and carry it from truck to pond. It also has 
a keel - about 1�" - that runs the length of the canoe. Doesn't sound 
like much of a keel, eh? Take an inch and a half, and multiply it times
the number of inches in sixteen feet, and that's the surface area.

Canoes have gained a reputation for being "tippy" over the years. Well,
I'd rather be in a canoe that tilts more and more then finally goes over,
than a jon boat that just suddenly flips. (From friend's experiences.)
And, the canoe bow rises up to cut through reasonable waves, where those
same waves would come across the bow or poop of a jon boat.

My observations - experiences - opinions,

Art

    
    	Wow, this is great stuff, and I appreciate all your responses.
    Actually my main concern is with fishing, but just paddling around
    with my wife is something I'll probably do as well.  I will most
    definately go with fiberglass because of the quiteness, and I don't
    expect to do any whitewater, so I guess I should get one with a
    keel.  Something light (65 lbs doesn't sound bad) also.  The price
    of the Old Town sounds pretty good at around $350.  Do any of you
    guys know of anyplace in the Greater Burlington area where I could
    check some of these out (BTO)??  Again many thanks, but don't stop
    if you have a preference for a particular brand, Pros AND cons,
    etc...  I'm all ears (eyes here :') ).
    
    - Rob

    re: .9
    
    Ron,
    	Where is the Mansfield factory??  Are they the same as the "Stowe"
    canoes?  I'd like to check them out as well.
    
    - Rob
    

    Re:.12
    
      -- Canoe Imports on Shelburne Rd in Shelburne.
    
    Re:.13
    
      -- One in the same.  On Rt 100 (shortly before you hit 108) 
    	 right on the river.
    
    Dave

   The best "fishing only" canoe I've seen is the Sport's Pal or the Sport's
   Pal clones.  You can paddle them, row them or attach an electric motor to
   them.  However, the original is aluminum but is lined on the inside with
   a material that looks like ethafoam. It doesn't fit your criteria of
   glass but the insulation causes it to be quieter and warmer. They are
   ugly as hell as they have a big strip of black flotation material above
   the water line the length of the canoe.  The price is also high at around
   $600 but I have seen some used ones in the past for less.  Kittery
   Trading post in Kittery, Maine carried these as well as several other
   brands.  The Sport's Pal also seems best suited for the guy that usually
   goes out alone and is not interested in touring. 

    I second the suggestion of the Sportspal canoe; I have a 14' Sportspal
    with a 3hp Minnkota electric trolling motor on a side-mount bracket.
    The canoe is extremely stable and has great capacity: I sometimes
    fish with my 2 dogs, a 75 lb Golden Retriever and a 55 lb Keeshond
    (although I rarely catch anything with them in the boat - constantly
    sticking their heads in the water!!) and have never tipped. I'll
    admit its an ugly canoe (fake birchbark paint job!) and doesn't paddle
    very well, but its tough to beat for stability (those ugly black
    sponsons (foam strips) on the side add a lot to the stability).
    The foam on the inside makes it very quiet and it's a light 65 lbs.
    
    - Dave

    
    
    I own a 13' Merrimack canoe, it's a cream color! It only weighs
    58 lbs and comes with a center yoke for easy portage. From my under-
    standing that these two brothers used to build the Merrimack, in
    Merrimack, NH. years ago, then one brother decided to go his own
    way and he built the Mansfield up in VT!! They, meaning the Merrimack
    and Mansfield, where very similiar in design, they improved the
    canoe as the years went by. "Stowe" later bought out the Mansfield,
    and called it "Stowe", I believe?? But the Merrimack canoe is still
    being made down in Tennesse, last I heard. I brought mine from the
    onwers daughter up here in Merrimack, NH., I guess her father gives
    her a new canoe every year!!, so I lucked out....
    
    I've seen alot of canoe's, and a fiberglass canoe is the way to
    go!!!  You can't white water with it, but you sure can get alot
    of use of it....  These canoe's are not cheap, but believe me they
    are worth the investment in the long run!!
    
    
    Andy

    	I own a 13' STOWE. Its fiberglass with wood gunnals, seats,
    thwart, aft and stern decking etc. weighs 60# and is rated at 600#.
    STOWE is NOT made by OLD TOWN and I love mine. I suspect, by the length
    you are interested in, that you want to be able to portage your canoe
    and my only STRONG advice would be to be certain that you get or
    order a yoke type center thwart. It's shaped like an Ox yoke and
    fits the sholders much more comfortably than a straight one.
    
                             Joe Whittemore - Where the Westfield
                                              Meets the Westfield
                                                 By the Westfield
                                                    In Huntington (MA)     

    I may as well throw my two cents in here. I bought a White Stillwater
    about eighteen months ago for just the purpose you describe - fishing
    and the occasional paddle. A few things come to mind - I would
    definitely go for Cane seats - they are much cooler and generally
    more comfortable than solid ones. I echo the note about the yoke
    - you need one if you want to look reasonably graceful when waddling
    around the shore with your legs sticking out from under the boat.
    My boat is short - 14ft and wide - 39" - this makes it stable but
    slow - I think if I had my time again I would go for a 16ft a little
    narrower - mine is a bit of a squeeze with wife and two kids.
    One thing you may want to consider - the guy in the dealers in
    Newburyportpassed on this gem so take it for what its worth - he
    told me that the cheaper fiberglass boats are made under less
    controlled conditions and that if they are layed up in damp weather
    they tend to weigh much more than if made in dry weather - this
    means a large variation in weight - may just mean the difference
    between a boat you can lift and one you cant.
    Rod

    One more piece of advice.  Unless your strong get the lightest canoe
    you can.  I made the mistatke of buying for my friends instead of
    me!  If I can't find someone to go out with me I can't go out by
    myself!! 
    
    				Bart Lasky

    re: lifting heavy canoes
    
    Sometimes, with a little practice, you can learn to handle a canoe
    by yourself that you previously thought was impossible. I learned
    that last year when my pregnant wife couldn't handle the other end
    of the canoe. Turns out it's more a matter of leverage and timing
    than the weight of the canoe. I can load and unload our 17' Coleman 
    on the roof of the car all by myself now. Back then it was either
    do it myself or don't go fishing! (or wait until I could find someone
    to help me) Well... a little motivation goes a long way! (I think
    the canoe weighs around 70lb - not *too* bad)
    
    Ed

    
    	 I checked out a couple of canoes at Canoe Imports yesterday.
    The two I looked at were a White Stillwater and a Mad River Winooski.
    The White was around $500 and the Mad River was about $700.  The
    White I looked at was a 12 ft, 50 lbs, and the Mad River was a 14
    foot, 65 lbs I think.  The dealer said the Mad River was a Much
    stronger canoe because of the Cloth Fiberglass construction.  Both
    had cane seats.  Also, the Mad River had a shallow-v hull which
    he said was quite stable and definately better on any moving water.
    Any comments on the Shallow-V hull??  The guy said it was a little
    tippy at first but that I'd get used to it.  Actually he was
    trying to sell me the Mad River over ALL else.
    	I didn't get a chance to look at the Stowe unfortunately, but
    the 13' was $675 list price.  All these canoes have 39-41" beams.
    	Do these prices sound reasonable??  I was hoping I might be
    able to talk the guy down a bit - kind of like buying a car.
    He did say he was getting a Stowe "Mansfield" in (13ft) shortly
    so I could check that out too.  I would like to get the best value
    for my money...  I don't mind spending five to seven hundred on
    a canoe if I'm sure it'll last many years with proper care.
    
    re .20 - Were you suggesting that the White canoe is of relatively
    	     poor quality??
    
                            
    Thanks Again for all the inputs.  - Rob
    

    I noticed that my dad put in a reply 962.11 about our Merrimack canoe.
    I have a few things to add:

    First, one of the previous notes asked about color.  Well, our's is cream
    colored and its nice because it doesn't show scratches like a red or
    green canoe would. Even if you just fish in quiet ponds you're going
    to get some scratches on the bottom every time you beach it.  Take a
    look at the keel on a three or four year old green fiberglass canoe
    and it'll look like someone took a belt sander to it.  With a light 
    colored canoe, you can't see any of these surface scratches unless
    you're right next to it.
          
    Next, nobody has mentioned paddles yet: we have both plastic/aluminum 
    and wooden paddles.  I prefer a wooden paddle because it fits better
    in my hand and doesn't flex when I'm really digging hard.  The 
    plastic/aluminum paddles that came with the canoe are lighter, have 
    sharper edges to enter the water better, and have a boat hook
    (actually just a T) on the end to pull you over to the dock.  You can 
    also used the "T" on the end of the paddle to pull small branches down
    if your father happens to cast a little too close to shore.  A 
    disadvantage of the wooden paddles is that if you use one to push
    yourself off from shore, the bottom edge will get chewed up and I've 
    heard that they will eventually split.

    For an anchor, we use an 8 lb. (it might be 6 lb.) vinyl coated
    mushroom anchor. It holds us just fine even when we go fishing in the 
    Merrimack River in Manchester.  

    We carry the canoe on a roof rack designed specifically for carrying 
    canoes that we got from L.L. Bean.  The rack clamped onto the rain 
    gutters on my old Cutlass and I hope it'll fit the rain gutters on my 
    Bronco II.  The rear rack has a roller on it, so you just put one end
    of the canoe on and then push it the rest of the way up.  The rack has 
    4 clamps that grab onto the gunwales.  It also has two canvas straps 
    that go over the top of the canoe.  When we take it on trips of over
    30 miles or so, I'll also tie the bow and stern to the front and rear 
    bumpers of the car.

    Our canoe is a 16 footer and it is not too small for two people to
    fish from.  So long as the guy in the bow doesn't cast straight back 
    over his head, you won't have to worry about getting a mouthful of 
    jig-and-pig every time he casts. In fact, I find my buddy's 17' canoe
    too long.  When you have to pass the net or pliers back and forth, 
    you'll appreciate not having that extra foot in between you.

    When you go fishing in a canoe, you're going to have to limit yourself 
    to only one tackle box and two rods each.  In our canoe, a my 6� foot 
    boron rod rests nicely supported by the carrying yoke and my seat.  
    You don't want to put your rod down on the deck because:
        1. It'll get rolled around as the canoe rocks
        2. It'll get dirty from the sand and water that you tracked in on 
           your dirty old sneakers when you pushed off from shore 

    One more thing about fishing in a canoe: don't forget to keep the net 
    handy.  We try to keep it in the middle of the boat and even then it
    can get tricky trying to reach back and grab the net with one hand 
    while you're fighting a fish with the other.  

    We have either a 9 or 12 lb. Minn-Kota trolling motor that we
    sometimes use.  We had to make a wooden mount for it because you can't 
    clamp it directly to the gunwale.  On its top speed its moves us as
    fast as two of us can paddle on our own.  Unfortunately, the hassle of 
    carrying the battery to and from the car trunk each time you launch
    and the space that it takes up in the already limited canoe makes it 
    not worth using (in my opinion).  The time when it is worth-while
    is when you're at Pawtuckaway fishing up in Fundy cove and you have
    two mile paddle ahead of you to get back to your campsite.  Also, I'm
    not sure, but I think that when you put a trolling motor on a canoe 
    your boat enters a different category and you have to have lights, an 
    extinguisher, and a signaling device just like a power boat needs.
    This may vary from state to state. Does anyone know?

    can't wait for ice-out!

    --JAFO

Re a couple back>

	In my opinion, the Mad River canoe is an excellent canoe but 
if I remember correctly the base note mentioned looking for a stable
fishing canoe. Mad River isn't. The shallow v is a good compromise between
a keel (for good tracking) and a round bottom (for maneuverablility) but
the additional penetration into the water by the hull causes it to be
fairly unstable (tippy as the salesman stated). I'd guess that it would be
very good for canoe tripping where heavy loads would decrease the tippyness
and you would meet varying types of water i.e. flat through white. As 
primarily a fishing platform however I think its a mismatch.

Paul

P.S. Hanging a motor off the side would amplify this instability.

    Rob,
    
    If you go to the Stowe Canoe Sale you should be able to get that
    13' for under $400, probably closer to $300.  You may have to re-
    glue a gunnel in a spot or two, but it's worth it.  My sister-in-
    law paid $265 for hers (its been a few years now).  I know quite
    a few people who own them.  In fact, I hunted duck out of one for
    years.
    
    I would also like to second the aluminum paddles.  They're great.
    I've done some informal racing on ponds/lakes and people are
    amazed how much power you can generate with those blades.  Only
    problem is that they're cold in the spring and fall.
    
    Dave
         
    
    Rob, I've got a copy of "LL Bean's Guide to the Outdoors" and it has
    a whole chapter on buying canoes and accessories.  I found it to
    be very unbiased and much of the information will be pertinant
    for years to come.  Stop by or send me mail if you would like to
    read it.
    

    	Although you can spend more, $500-$700 sounds on the expensive
    side for what you want (i.e. something to fish out of).
    
    	RAYJ
    

    
    There was a dealer at the Centrum from whom I grabbed a flyer. 
    I don't recall the brand but he was in Fitchburg and advertised
    factory seconds beginning at $299.  I kept the flyer.  If I can
    find it, I'll post details tonight.
    
    -SSS-

    OK.  Here's the scoop.  The place is:
    
                      Outdoor Endeavors, Inc.
                      840 Water St
                      Fitchburg, Ma.
    
    The brochure lists canoes from  11'2" to 17'3" long, from 37 to
    79 pounds, capacities from 250 to 900 pounds and prices from $399
    to $1099.  Comes in 7 colors.
    
    I won't reproduce the whole brochure but the have a model called
    the "angler" that is 14', weighs 68#, holds 550# and comes in a
    vinyl gunwale model at $529 and a wood gunwale model (also has a
    parquet floor !?) at $679.  Like I said, their sign said that they
    had factory seconds from $299.  The brochure has attached an accessory
    credit voucher worth $50 in accesory purchases if a canoe is bought
    by March 4.  It's yours for the asking.
    
    Final note 1) their phone # is (508) 343-7500.
    
    Final note 2) voucher states they're moving to rt. 140 in Winchendon
    mid-summer 1989.
    
    -SSS- 

    
    I own a Old-Town, The model name is "Pathfinder" its 14ft 2inches
    long and weighs 37pounds. Its capcity is 900pounds. I use it for
    float-trips for Duck-Hunting and fishing as well as pleasure. Thou
    sometimes ive scared myself (Tippy) Ive never had a real problem
    and I figure for a guy that stands 6ft-3 and weighs 280lbs plus
    gear I would'nt trade it.
    
    When I first started looking at all the models, I wanted something
    light-weight, not tippy for hunting, and not to long for back rivers
    but the capcity of a 17ft.
    
    The Old Town fit the bill. The resale value is good. And Old Towns
    method of determining capacity is 2nd to none. They place the canoe
    in the water and fill it with cement blocks. When the top of the
    side rails are just about flush with the water they rate the capacity.
    
    This to my understanding is the true way to measure how much weight
    the canoe can withstand. Also mine was a 2nd and never have had
    a problem in fact if you don't work at a canoe company you'll never
    see the blemish cause lets face it- We don;t deal with them every-day.
    
    Bet you can notice a blemish on a VAX thou.
    
    Good-Luck,
    Rick

    Just a quick thought on a roof rack idea for a canoe.  Go to 
    spags or anywhere where you can buy plumbing insulation.  Use
    the tubes (or cut them to smaller lengths) the same way you    
    would the foam/rubber type blue blocks.  My brother was looking
    for the blue blocks but couldn't find them any cheaper than $4
    a block.  We went to Spag's one evening and bingo, he bought
    a package of pipe insulation for about $4, and has been using it
    ever since.
    
    bc
    

    Sounds like a good idea, but it might not work equally well on all
    cars. I suspect that since the insulation only pads the gunnels,
    it might leave a bit of a dent in certain kinds of car roofs, (from
    the curvature of the roof) while the blocks have a wider "footprint" 
    and avoid this. $4 a block sounds just a bit steep, but a lot cheaper 
    than Thule racks or a dent in the roof.
    
    Ed
    

For less than $10, buy the Coleman car-top-carrier kit at Spags.  It's
complete with four spongy pads, rope, four S-hooks, and clips for even
rainless gutters.  I've got three years out of mine, the ropes the only
thing I change.

Mike_L

    
    	Well, I finally had the chance to go up and Visit the Stowe
    Canoe Co.'s factory in Stowe, Vt to check out their canoes.  They
    had a rack of about 8 seconds that I was particularly interested
    in.  These canoes had no structural damage (i.e. cracked gunnels,
    chipped or damaged gel-coat, etc...).  They were not as cheap either,
    however I opted to get one of them.  The only thing wrong with it
    is that the gunnels need to be sanded and a fresh coat of polyurathane
    needs to be applied, and there were a couple of minor scratches
    on the hull.  Nothing that wouldn't happen in the first few times
    out with it anyway.  The list for the 13ft was $710, and I paid
    $495 and talked them into throwing in an ash paddle worth $27.
    	I think I got a pretty good deal, considering the reputation
    of a Mansfield canoe.  It has a keel and is quite beamy.  If anyone
    is interested, they still have several of these blemishes left.
    I'd doubt if they have anything left after March 4th, however, because
    that's when they are planning on cleaning house.  Again, I'd like
    to thank everyone who responed.  It helps to hear good advice from
    those who have experience.  I've certainly learned quite a lot about
    canoes through this, and thus I got what fit my needs: a short,
    wide, stable canoe for paddling and fishing those hard to get at
    places and one that won't break my back if I try to unload it myself.
    
     - Rob
    

    	Last year I bought a Colman 17' canoe.  It's great for fishing.
    Since it has a flat bottom (with a keel for tracking) it is very 
    stable in flat water (lakes and ponds, etc.).  Also the length makes 
    it comfortable for fishing with two people.  The hull in made of
    a "nearly indestructable" polyethylene (their words, not mine).
    
    	HOWEVER, for all it's benefits as a flat water fishing platform
    (and general messin' around) it is not the greatest canoe for canoeing.
    What I mean is that if your interests go beyond fishing and into
    paddling (or crusing) around lakes and rivers this may not be the
    canoe for you.  Personally, I fall into this second class and I
    have since bought another canoe.  It is made of fibergalss (more
    fragile but faster) and a completely different hull design (shallow
    vee/shallow arch, no keel) for better stability in rougher water.
    It is also considerably more expensive.
    
    	(Now for the hard sell!) 
    	Soooo, if anyone would like to buy a Coleman 17' polyethylene
    canoe I'm looking to sell it, along with paddles and car-top carrier
    for $250.  I was going to wait until May to sell it but if there's
    any interest I could be forced to part with it sooner :^)
    		(I am serious about selling though...)
    
    Eric Myers
    PGG::MYERS
    MK01-2/B06  2C05

    I agree with .36. We bought a Coleman 17' the summer before last,
    and use it almost exclusively for fishing. It has plenty of room,
    and is pretty stable, but you have to be careful in any larger body
    of water that either has lots of boat traffic or can get choppy.
    I've used it on Paugus Bay in Winni, and if you're not careful,
    you can get in a pretty scary situation very quickly. Nothing like
    trying to get across the widest part of the water on a blustery
    day with weekend speed maniacs roaring by in every direction. It's
    great for smaller lakes and ponds, though, and pretty easy to just
    throw on the roof and go.
    
    Ed
    
    P.S. the price of the canoe in .36 is pretty reasonable, considering
    he's throwing in the carrier and all...