Conference wahoo::fishing

    I think in Mass, Conn and RI that aready applies. The answer is
    yes in my opinion.
    
    Bruce

Re -1
    As a point of clarification, at present no state on the Atlantic
    seaboard has granted the striper PERMANENT gamefish status. The
    current fisheries plan has had that effect, but it is very temporary.
    For example, in NY, as soon as the PCB levels in the fish are reduced
    to 'safe' levels, commercial fishing will be allowed to resume.
    In Maryland, as soon as the Young-of-the-Year index achieves 8.4
    for a couple of years in a row, commercial netting, etc., will be
    legalized again. 
    The question we are working on is PERMANENT GAMEFISH STATUS. 
    Basically we feel that without this stripers will be fished out
    of existance in the very near future.

    
    Bagel,
    
    I couldn't agree more with granting permanent gamefish status to
    Stripers in Salt water and any fresh water body that flows into
    salt without impediment.  I'm not sure how I feel about landlocked
    stripers or if that's even an issue.
    
    I understand billfish around the world are experiencing similar
    declines and it can be directly attributed to their more frequent
    appearance on the dinner plates of the world.
    
    I'm not opposed to eating fish and I am opposed to people dieing
    from hunger but it seems to me that the loss of recreational angling
    is more significant than the disappearance of marlin from the better
    menus across the globe.
    
    Keep up the fight,
    
    Steve 

    	I'm up for anything that would allow more anglers to catch more
    fish. I doubt this would hold much water in an arguement though.
    The commercial fisherperson has to make a living and consideration
    has to be given to them also. In other words, if I said YES it would
    be for purely selfish reasons.
    
    	Without knowing more about the issue I don't think I would be
    much help. From the commercial fisherpersons point of view I'd say
    if they are also restricted to the 33" limit like everyone else,
    they may have a valid arguement against passing such a bill.
    Instituting an open and closed season on the catching of stripers
    may be another alternative.
    
    RAYJ
    
    P.S. Some questions that come to mind that would help with this
    are what (if any) restrictions are imposed on commercial fisherpeople,
    (i.e. season, size, method, etc.) ????????
    
    	What authority (if any) does the Jersey Coast Anglers Association
    have over commercial fishing ????
    
    	Are commercial fisherpeople being represented at this meeting
    or is it one sided ????

    re -1
     JCAA is an association of about 40 individual fishing clubs with
    a combined membership of of many thousands of individuals. JCAA
    has no 'authority'. We are seeking to ask our state legislature
    to initiate such action.
    
    With regard to the commercial fishermen (of striped bass):
    	- All stripers, regardless of catch method must be 33 inches
    or more, and no more than 2 in possesion. This is the current FEDERAL
    management plan.
    	- Maryland, formerly the largest source of 'market fish' has
    banned ALL fishing for stripers for at least 2 years now. NY has
    banned commercial fishing for health reasons. RI had a moritorium
    for a year and then adapted the federal plan. Va. has banned commercial
    fishing for stripers. 
    	- Along the Atlantic Coast, the current restrictions, whether
    based on management plans or health concerns have effectively shut
    down the commercial fishery for quite a while.
    	- MY opinion is that no-one has been able to make a LEGAL livable
    income by comercial fishing for stripers for some time now. The
    current restrictions have been in place long enough that legitimate
    commercials have turned to other species or left the industry.
    	-MY opinion (again) that making Striped Bass a gamefish (i.e.
    outlawing the sale or barter of same) will not financially hurt
    any LAW_ABIDING commercial.
    
    Additional information is available from organizations like _Save_Our_
    Stripers (headed by Bob Pond,manufacturer of Atom Lures), American
    Littoral Society, NJ Fish & Game.
    
    Bagel

	Rich,
    
     	With the previously mentioned restrictions (i.e. 33" and 2 fish
    limit), do the commercial fishing rigs really impose that much of
    a threat to the striper population ?
    
    	I support what your trying to do by the way and am just trying
    to get more info on the subject and you appear to be well informed,
    as usual. Also, I am raising questions which may come up later and
    give you a chance to maybe be more prepared when/if they come up
    in the future and educate some of us in the process.
    
    	One of the other things that I'm not familiar with is the netting
    techniques. I've heard of weirs, gill nets, and drag nets. 
    
    	Correct me if I'm wrong but weirs are nets set up and suspended
    with poles so as to create a pocket (i.e. trap). Fish swim into the
    net and cannot find their way out.
    
	Gill nets are also suspended from poles and the fish swim into
    the mesh and go past their gills and cannot go all the way through or
    back out because their gills get stuck.    

    	Drag nets are what the trawlers use and form a big bag shaped
    net which is dragged behind a boat. The net is hauled in after dragging
    it around for a while and any fish caught are removed.
    
    	I know the nets are obviously indiscriminate of what they catch.
    If I'm not mistaken, the gill nets kill most if not all of the fish
    they catch. I'm not sure about the weirs or drag nets(whether they
    kill or not). What happens to any stripers that wind up in these ??? 
    This seems like a big waste and the type of regulation your going for will
    just mean that they have to throw all stripers back instead of getting
    to keep/sell 2 legally sized ones.
    
    	There may be holes in this but that's why I'm entering it.
    Otherwise if the above is true I think trying to get legislation
    around banning any method of netting which indiscriminately kills
    fish (whether legal size or not), would be more worth while. 

    RAYJ

    Ray,
    
    First, lets face one major fact. No matter what, present regs or
    changes, ENFORCEMENT is and will be an issue. This is a condition
    of which I'm very aware. At present NJ only has 4 CO's assigned
    to 'saltwater'.
    
    The THREAT
    	The threat is indeed very real. If not today, most certainly
    tomorrow when restrictions are eased due to stock improvments,reduced
    levels of toxins, etc. Time and again the U.S. commercial fleet
    has gone for the quick buck. Witness the near eradication of cod
    and haddock after the imposition of the 200 Mile limit. Witness
    the decimation of redfish (drum) stocks in the Gulf of Mexico.
    - the above may seem to be a blanket condemnation. I realize not
    all commercials are bad guys. Witness the South Jersey shad netters
    who voluntarily held off setting thier gear becvause they knew the
    first few weeks would only produce [short] stripers. I, in no way
    mean to stir up trouble between the sport and commercial segments.
    The problems with bass go beyond commercial fishing. But I don't
    feel that sufficient recovery will occur in the foreseeable future
    to sustain a prolonged commercial fishery- not on a species which
    doesn't spawn until 5 + years of age. 
    
    The GEAR.
    First, we cannot just look at netters. Historically, stripers have
    been the bread and butter of the 'pin-hookers', or rod & reel
    commercials. At Montauk, the pin hook catch was probably equal to
    that of the beach seiners, but since it was landed at night, was
    just not noticed. (This is a big reason for seeking Gamefish status
    rather than just banning netting).
    Otherwise, your pretty much on the mark concerning the gear you
    list. But all of it does produce a lott of stress. Also, even the
    trawls have a fairly low survival rate, as when the net is hauled
    on board, gravity compresses the catch in the bag. Remember that
    fish don't have very supportive skeletons and are easily crushed.
    Except for the fixed gear, i.e.: weirs, traps,pounds, long-lines,
    most other commercial gear is pretty selective, when used with todays
    electronics. 
    
    P.S. This is my current thought: Establishment of gamefish status
    could be just cause for the sport fishing community to support a
    Saltwater License. But that can be a whole Notes Conference by itself.  
                                                        
    Bagel

re: .7
>time and again the U.S. commercial fleet has gone for the quick buck.
>I realize not all commercials are not all bad guys.....

Bagel,

I respectfully and wholeheartedly disagree with some of your 
observations, regarding the commercials.

I worked commercial for four years in a number of fisheries; Northwest 
salmon, halibut, king-crab and trawl, Northeast trawl. In my experiences
I never, on numerous boats, met a skipper that showed any disrespect for 
the regulations set upon the indusrty. Regulations are looked upon as 
necessity, for the preservation of ones livelyhood. Most skippers want to 
preserve their livelyhood so that it can be passed on to their children.

The erradication of the cod and halibut...Much of the blame in this matter 
can be on the feds, although the commercials cannot wash their hands of this.
Overfishing prior to the 200 mile limit and poor federal management may have
had a hand in this.

From my experiences on the trawlers, I have to say damage to the fish
returned (many times more than were kept) was minimal. I disagree with
with your estimate of survival rate. Gill-netting, to me,
is more damaging. This industry should be tightly controlled, not only by 
a Jersy netters conscience and common sense but by them feds.

I've spent a lot of time on the Race and Hatteras looking for them Stripers
and have had occasion to catch a few of legal size. I have had ocasion to 
return a few and also have seen more than one kept, that should not have
been.

I think the responsibility falls upon us (the sporters) and the industries that
contaminate the waters to protect this natural reasource. Commercial fishing
plays a smaller role than you suggest.

Dave 

P.S. After all this I have to say I'm not totaly against the 'game fish'
status. I just wanted to stick up for the commercials. Hope this note makes it
through....I'm new to DEC nad new to notes

     Totally AGREE!!! We've seen what's happened in Chesapeake Bay, the
    Hudson (and from personal experience, Cuttyhunk), and the only way
    to prevent more of this is to provide the maximum protection allowed
    under the law. Even a "striper stamp" for a couple of bucks might
    make sense to fund some of the work, especially in states that have
    major spawning areas.
     If commercial fisherman really do throw back uninjured gamefish
    and "shorts", why, that's even better. I don't think the majority
    do, but I can't say this with authority. also, a minimum length
    helps, and I wish that more guys would learn how to gaff 'em in
    the mouth, even if it means losing a fish. I've seen too many fish
    injured that could have been released.
     Here's a personal story (unfortunately) to prove my point: around
    15 years ago, 3 of us chartered out of cuttyhunk for two days. we
    caught 43 Stripers averaging 23 lbs., with the largest at 33. All
    were gaffed and kept at the insistence of the captain. We were each
    allowed 10 lbs. of fillets, and the rest were his to sell. I'd probably
    have wanted a couple of pounds of fillets, if that. If we could
    have released the rest, I'm sure we would have. It was not to be,
    and I've thought about it many times, because I've been pretty much
    of a "catch 'n release" guy (only because I don't eat most fish)
    since even before then.
     Keep up the good work, Rich !!
    
    --The Skoal Bandit--

    RE: .8
    
    Maybe I do seem to be issuing a blanket condemnation of commercials,
    but I certainly don't mean to. 
    
    I understand that there are good guys and bad guys among both sports
    and commercials. Again, I do not intend to create a rift between
    the two. I have seen what that can do (R.I. striper issue a few
    years ago). 
    
    One of the major problems is Enforcement of the existing rules.
    In NJ, the enforcement agency (Marine FIsheries) is woefully under
    staffed.
    
    One point is, however, that one commercial will certainly do more
    damage to stocks than any one sport fisher. Bear in mind I consider
    anyone who sells thier catch a commercial (but certainly do not
    deny thier right to do so!). 
    
    I do recall reading news reports of the resistance to increased
    minimum sizes for stripers in Maryland. The commercial wanted to
    continue catching 14 inch fish, which were probably 3 or 4 years
    away from spawning. This doesn't sound very much like conservation.
    
    I am very sorry that this note went off on this tangent (discussion
    of commercial fishing). The intent here is to ask how the participants
    in this file feel about making the striped bass a (legal) gamefish.
    
    Bagel    

    IN CALIFORNIA STRIPED BASS ARE A GAMEFISH IN FACT YOU NEED A SPECIAL
    STAMP TO POSSESS ONE. THE FISHERY HAS GONE STEADLY DOWNHILL IT IS
    PROBALLY 10% OF WHAT IT WAS 15 YEARS AGO. POLLUTION OF THE SAN FRANSICO
    BAY AND OVERFISHING ARE RESPONSABLE. THE EAST COAST STILL HAS SOME
    PRIME STRIPED BASS FISHING. WRITE YOU FISH AND GAME PEOPLE AND GET
    THIS FISH UNDER PROTECTION OF FISH AND GAME LAWS!

    re -1
    
    Geez, is that how you treat a present? Here I was hoping that maybe
    you West Coasters could return some of those bass we sent you guys
    to get started  :^) ! But thanks for the input.
    
    While your in this note, what kind of lures, etc, are used out west?
    
    Bagel
    

    Well, it looks like the size limits may be increased again! (Insuring
    that I will never again catch a keeper)
    
    Current proposal is to increase the minimum size for Striped Bass
    to 37 inches. This equates to a fish of at least 18 pounds, probably
    more! 
    
    Even though I, personally don't keep any bass, I find this latest
    proposal to be outrageous! This year has seen the most stripers caught
    in NJ since the mid-seventies. Most of these fish range (at least
    those I've caught) from 20" up to about 30". Since stripers are
    rather slow growing, these fish won't be legal for many years to
    come.
    
    Given the talk I hear along the beach, if the limit is upped to
    37", I think there are going to be a lot of people risking some
    hefty fines. 
    
    I think it's time all the saltwater anglers start making their feelings
    known to the Fisheries Management Councils, which will be conducting
    hearings on this during the Fall.
    
    Bagel

    As a result of some questionable results in the Maryland Young-of Year
    (YOY) seining survey, the ASMFC has seen fit to change the regulations
    concerning Striped Bass:
    
    1. Recreational Anglers will be allowed possession on 1 fish, minimum
    	size 28 inches.
    
    2. A commercial net fishery has been approved for North Carolina inland
    	waters, targeted at a non-migratory population (min. size < 20")
    
    3. Commercial efforts will be opened up based upon historical catch
    	records, by state. It is expected that Md. will be the first to	
    	allow netting in the Chesapeake. The NY haul seiners (at Montauk)
    	are already making a lot of noise to re-open that fishery.
    
    [Flame-ON]
    I think we will see many years of good, tough conservation effort go 
    down the hopper. I have serious questions re: the statistics used to 
    liberalize the regulations. In fact, the NJ Congressional delegation
    has arranged for an "Oversight Investigation" into this matter.
    What I find most repugnant is the allowance for taking fish far below 
    (estimated) spawning size. What may be a superb year class may be
    decimated before they can ever contribute to the population.
    [Flame-OFF]
    
    Bagel

 It is a ridiculous idea to reopen the fishery on the basis of a single
year class. They wont be happy until the species is in worse shape than
before. Cretins.

 The Doctah

How big does a striper have to get before it spawns?  I too would hate to see
the population wiped out.  There is obviously good justification for having the
limit as high as it is already.  I assumed that it increased every year to
protect the smaller (younger) fish.  Sounds like the net people are putting
heavy pressure on politicians to get what they want, which is not what's best
for the fish.

I'm also glad to here about the bluefish limits.  If they were to be as strictly
managed as the stripers, they will be around for many years to come!


Tim

    re:.16
    
    >How big does a striper have to get before it spawns?
     
    That question is one of the main problems in managing the striper
    stocks. Initially the thought was that females would spawn at between
    18 and 24 inches (3-4 years old). When it was discovered that when the 
    '82 class females didn't spawn at that size, the minimum size started 
    being raised. Apparently, by ages 6 -7, and 33-36 inches, most of the
    females of a given year class have spawned at least once.
    
    BAgel