Conference wahoo::fishing-v2

You might want to give us some more information, such as:

1. Spinning or Casting?  Will you be trolling?
2. What types of lures or baits (or both) do you want to fish
3. What species other than blues?
4. Will you be fishing only shallow water or is there deep water
   to fish?
5. Do you fish more for sport or for meat?

Without knowing the answers to these questions, it is very difficult
to recommend a particular model.  You can't go wrong with products from
companies like Penn, Newell, St. Croix, Fenwick, etc.

I recently bought an 8' St. Croix Ben Doer two-piece spinning rod and
matched it with a Penn 5500SS with 12# on one spool and 15# on the 
other.  It cast like a rocket, can handle lures up to 2 oz (I always
fish heavier than the rod recommends -- It handled a 4 oz sinker quite
well on Saturday).  So far I've only caught stripers on it, but I know
it will handle the biggest bluefish I'll ever encounter and most
striped bass.

Tim

    Tim,
    
    	Here are the answers to your questions:
    
    	1. Casting. What is spinning?  No trolling at this time but, would
    	   like to try some day.
    	2. Both lures & bait.  Sand eel => lure & sea worms, squid etc.,for
    	   bait.
    	3. Scup, flounders, sea bass, blues, cod(?) and others.
    	4. Shallow waters. 20-40'  
    	5. Fish for meat.
    
        Thanks,
    
    	Armando

   
    	1. Casting. What is spinning?  No trolling at this time but, would
    	   like to try some day.

    	2. Both lures & bait.  Sand eel => lure & sea worms, squid etc.,for
    	   bait.
    	3. Scup, flounders, sea bass, blues, cod(?) and others.
    	4. Shallow waters. 20-40'  
    	5. Fish for meat.
 
Armando,

It would be very difficult to recommend a single rod that would do
all of those types of fishing well.  I have no fewer than 4 rods to
fish for the above species.   Since you will be in a small boat,
length is probably important.

1. Casting vs. Spinning -- Casting reels have revolving spools, like
   the penn squidder.  Spinning reels have a fix spool with a bail
   that revolves around the spool to gather the line.  Spinning Rods 
   are fished with the guides down and casting (or trolling or boat
   or conventional) rods are fished guides up.

It is highly unlikely that you will find cod in 20-40' of water, so
for the sake of discussion, let's eliminate them.  You can get away with
a 7' Medium Heavy rod and a good quality reel holding 200-250 yards of
15-20# test line.

For spinning outfits (better for horizontal fishing):
  reels:  Penn 5500SS or 650SS  or equivalents.  I'm partial to Penn
  rod:    7' MH  lure weight: 1/2-2 oz

For conventional outfits (better for vertical fishing/trolling):
  reels:  Penn 112H, 9M, 310GTI or equivalents.
  rod:    7' MH  lure weight: 1-4 oz. 

You can go towards the lighter side, if you are not bottom fishing
in areas with a lot of snags, i.e., if you are more interested in
casting poppers for blues.  Since you say 5. Fish for meat, I'd stick
with the slightly heavier range.

I'd go to Spags if I were you.  Ask the people there to show you
a bunch of rods & reels.  Where on the Cape will you be fishing?
I'd also recommend you stop in at Red Top in Bourne/Buzzards Bay.
They certainly carry something in your price range that will meet
most of your requirements.

Tim

 Tim's advice is sage. I'd probably get a spinning outfit, because I can cast
better with it and it seems more versatile. Definitely get the extra spool
when you buy it (spinning reel); it makes it almost like having a second reel
for a third of the price. Spool up with 12 or 14 lb line on one and 20 on
the other and you'll be able to catch flounder and blues with a 30 second
spool change.

    Thanks for the advise.  Last night I picked up a Penn 5500SS spinning
    reel.  The rod was a different story.  I had a problem picking out the
    rod.  The 7' rod is a one piece and it will never fit into the trunk of
    my car.  On the other hand the 8.5' St. Croix is a two piece and when
    broken down will fit nicely into the car's trunk.  However, the 8.5' is
    long for a boat outing.  Given the problem, I thought it might be best
    to get the two piece,  At least it will be out of view in the trunk.
    Can I use the 8.5' in a boat?  Do you strongly recomment the 7' over
    the two piece 8.5' given the problem?  How do you handle the problem
    outside of buying a truck?  Is the two piece as sensative as the one?
    How about strenght?  Thanks.
    
    Armando
    
    
    Armando   

I have the 8.5' Ben Doer (St. Croix) -- It is strong and sensitive.
It fits in my trunk.  I have the 5500SS mounted on it.  I've use it on
Bruce's boat (25') and it is not too big.  I would not strongly 
recommend it for deep vertical fishing.  I got the 8.5 to use both
from the beach & the boat as the 10' would have been too long for
the boat.  It's a great rod.  Only you know how much room you have in
the boat -- you've not told us how big, how much other stuff (& people)
will be there to get in your way.

Tim

    The boat is about 25' (I think).  I was thinking more of removing the
    fish from the hook when the rod is ~2.5' higher than I am.  With a shorter
    rod the butt can alway be put on the deck and the fish will be at chest
    level.  Leaving a little more line out should resolve the problem though.
    Spags had a greater variety of rods than I had expected.  I settled on
    the 8.5' Ben Doer at $99 and for $10 more a second spool with 20#
    (great idea!, thanks).
    
    How heavy of a sinker do you use with the St. Croix and the 5500SS? I
    bought a 7/8 oz. popper.  If I remember correctly the rod specifies a
    max of 1 1/4 oz. lure.  Can't wait until this weekend!  Thanks for the
    advise.  Happy fishing.

	You'll be very happy with that combo.  I have a 10-12(?) year old
550ss that still works great!  Never needed anything but cleaning/lubing.

	I don't have the exact same rod, I have the 10' conventional with
an Abu 7000 C-3 on it and this rod can -really- throw a plug!  I find that
my rod likes lures on the heavy end of it's rating, ~3oz.

	With a thin stiff rod like that, -do not- rest the butt on the deck
and expect the tip to support a fish with the rod in a vertical position!
It's an easy way to pop off a tip!
						B.C.

that is exactly the rod/reel combo I have.  It fishes quite comfortably on
a 25' GW.  

    I wonder if there is anyone out there who could give me some good
    advice on a baitcaster for salt H2O.  I do most of my fishing from
    shore with spinning gear and have limited experience with conventional
    gear. I will mainly use this at night slinging eels or other live 
    baits. I basically want something that relitivly inexpensive 
    ($60.00), reliable (for those big cows) and easy to use i.e.
    no backlash.   I also need a decent pole to match.
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    John 
    

If you ask 10 people, you will get 10 opinions and buy one and not like it.  The
only way to buy something like this is to try a bunch of them out.  Go to a good
surf shop like Red Top or Surf Land and talk to them for a while.  There are
lots of good brands out there, but I'm partial to Penn & Abu Garcia.  I won't
try and confuse you with too many models, but I know people use Abu 9000, and
Penn squidders.  I like the spinning rods, especially at night in the dark.

Tim

    Tim,
    
    You couldn't be more right when you say that everyone has their
    own preference. I myself swear by Penn for spinning gear, but
    have no experience with baitcasting reels.  I did hear of a spinning
    reel that somehow free spools and is supposed to be good for live
    bait fishing. I also heard that these reels are pretty expensive
    although I don't know the Co. that makes these. I guess I still have a
    good 5 months before the bass come up here so hopefully I'll find
    something by them.
    
    John 

    re: and easy to use i.e.  no backlash.
    
    Virtually no such thing.  You can adjust a baitcaster so that even a
    novice can cast into the wind without getting a a backlash, but you'll
    lose distance.  A reel with magnetic control can make learning how to
    cast a baticaster a little more forgiving.  
    
    -donmac

You are thinking of Shimano bait runner.  I personally like to keep things as
simple as possible...fewer things to break on the water.  I just fish my penn
spinning reels with the bail open and lightly finger the line.

I've also had luck with a 25GLS (lever drag) in free-spool.   I use this on a
boat/troll rod when I fish live macks/pollock for stripers (i.e., a heavy
bait)

Tim

Frank Daignault in his book Stiper Surf states his preferences.  He thinks 
spinning gear is best for surf casting up to 4 oz, and conventional gear is 
best above that.  Then he says that he currently uses a flyrod for most of 
his surf fishing and conventional for the rest.

I use an Abu 6500 C3 2-speed for lighter stuff, but it doesn't hold that much 
line - 160 yds of #17 - about the same as a Penn 550SS spinning reel.  It's a 
real pleasure to use and I love it.  I do tighten the spool tension knob a bit 
at night so it doesn't matter that I can't tell when the lure hits the water.  
That seems to cut the distance down to about 80 or 90%.

Note by the way that Abu uses large random numbers for their reel capacities, 
a pretty important statistic with fish that run long distances.  It's a pet 
peeve of mine.  They rate the 6500 at 220/20 and 400/12.  It's probably more 
like 130/20 and 260/12.  They rate the 5500 at 190/20 and 300/12, while mine 
holds only 215/12.  Penn on the other hand is always within about 10 yds of 
what I have measured.

Tom

My wife has the 8.5' Ben Doer (St. Croix) rod Tim mentions in .6, and we 
both love it.  It can handle a 2.5 oz Kastmaster just fine.

Here's a short list of reels - I've been window shopping in the catalogs.
I haven't tried any of them yet except my 6500.  

Penn Mag 10		275/15		14 oz		$50
Penn Squidder 140L	350/20		18 oz		$58
Penn Squidder 146L	220/20		16 oz		$58
Penn 310 GTi		325/15		16 oz		$58
Penn 320 GTi		320/20		19.5 oz		$60
Abu 6500 C3		160/17		10.5 oz		$63
Penn 980		400/20		21 oz		$105
Abu 7000 C3		200/20 ??	17.8 oz		$110
Newell 220-5		200/20				$110
Newell 229-5		290/20		(about 12)	$110
Newell 235-5		350/20				$110
Abu 9000 C (2-speed)	380/20		18.5 oz		$180

The Penn Mag 10 level wind has a magnetic cast control and a heavy duty drag.

Penn Squidders have big drags, bayonnet style quick takedown, and an anti-
reverse selector lever like the spinning reels have.  That allows you to 
crank the reel backwards to let line out if you get a big fish too close to 
the rod tip.  

Penn GTi level wind reels have strong graphite frames, big drags, and sealed 
bearings.  The 310 GTi has an antireverse selector.  

There's not much else in your price range.

For heavier weights and line strengths, the Penn 980 is probably the way to 
go.  It holds 400/20 (about 320/30), has a huge drag, a really strong frame, 
and a magnetic cast control.  

The Surfcaster in Darien Conn. thinks a lot of Newell reels, saying they're 
smooth and durable.  They have graphite frames and spools, and are much 
lighter than the others.  They come in a whole range of sizes.  I listed the 
smallest ones.  These 3 have a 5:1 retrieve ratio and a large diameter spool, 
so they take in way more line per turn of the handle.  I'd wonder about the 
strain that puts on the pinion gear and spool bearings.

Tom

    
    Abu 6500 C3             160/17          10.5 oz         $63
    Abu 7000 C3             200/20 ??       17.8 oz         $110
    
    I'm now in Shock! If these are the same reels that we have in the UK
    (and aren't they made in Sweede) they are under half the UK price.
    
    The line capacity worries me a bit though, the 6500 we have in the UK
    holds at least 300/15(.30mm) The reel is quite often given what is
    known as a CT cage,that is the level wind and top bar are removed a stronger
    bottom bar is then inserted where the level wind was.  The point of the
    exersize is to gain extra distance in the cast. The standard casting
    weight used with the 6500 is about 5oz (150grm) and with the right rig
    you can get about 150yards ( the UK and I think world reccord is over
    300yards!)
    
    Would it be possible for someone to recomend a cataloge where I can
    check out these reels. If someone could send me one I would be most
    greatful and I could re-emburse them in Dollars I have left over from
    my last US trip.
    
    Many thanks
    
    Martin
    
                                     

	   I presently use a ProMax II 2-speed that's rated for 190 yds.
	of 20 lb.  Standard premium mono it's real close to that.

	   If I use Magna Thin or Bagley's it holds 225-250 yds., and if
	I drop down to 16 lb. Bagleys Blue Label, a class line, I crank on
	about 275!!!

	   I also use an Abu 7000 C-3 that's rated for 200 yds. of 30lb.,
	(don't believe Bass Pro specs).  I have about 50 yds. of 30 lb.
	Micron backing and about 225-250 yds of 25 lb. Stren over that.

	   I really like the Abu reels for the salt.  They're light, strong,
	and cast like a dream!  If I didn't care about a levelwind then
	I'd most likely go with Penn.  I won't bother to list the reasons,
	they're the standard for heavier salt use.

						B.C.

What we need is a Manufacturer's demo day, like they have at the ski slopes, to try
before you buy.

Someplace like surfland,  check out the rod for a few casts, walk up to the beach and
give it a try.  Come back and try another.  Then you can get an idea on what works 
for you.

Anyone ever heard of such a thing?

Gordon

Retail stores in the US sell reels for $10 or $20 more than the prices I 
quoted, which are from the mail order houses Cabela's and Bass Pro Shops.
Once you get on their mailing list, you get about 10 (or is it 20?) free 
catalogs (junk mail) a year from each, so we've got plenty of spares over 
here.  Where do you want 'em sent?

They're very reasonable to deal with, too.  If you don't like an item and 
it still looks new, just send it back for a replacement or refund, no 
questions asked.  If it's damaged or doesn't do what they said it would 
do, they will pay the return shipping or reimburse you for it later, at 
least within the US.  For foreign shipments they add 20% of merchandise 
cost to the standard shipping charge (42" max package size for ground), 
and 40% for air.  There are special rates for Canadian customers, so maybe 
it's cheapest to relay an order to UK through someone in Canada.

Interestingly enough, UK prices for stuff made over there are about half 
what they are in US catalogs.  Seville's in UK has Wheatley fly boxes and 
Hardy's fly reels that I did the math on.  A Wheatly box that goes for $44 
over here is 17 pounds at Seville's.  At 1.5 bucks/pound, that's almost a 
50% savings.  I don't remember how shipping the charges work.

Speaking of the refund policies, that sounds like a way to create our own 
demo day.  Order 1 of everything, have a demo day where everyone is careful 
not to scratch anything, and send the leftovers back.  The cost is 2 sets of 
shipping charges and a lot of mono.  Might be a lot of fun, too.

This line capacity thing is real interesting.  I was quoting it from memory, 
but I have everything written down at home.  I know that 210/12 (sometimes 
215/12) is exactly what I get for the 5500 because I use it for bonito, and 
it's important to know how much line you have with them.  The 160/17 for 
the 6500 may be off by 10 or 15 yds.  Still, my numbers are way different 
than Abu, Bass Pro, and Martin in .17 say, so I'm puzzled.  Especially since 
I've filled them each a number of times.

I also have two smaller baitcasters for bass, Lew's and Daiwa, and they both 
measure to within 10 yds of what the manufacturers claim.  Same for the Penn 
spinning reels my wife and I have, 440SS, 450SS, 550SS, and 650SS.  

I used Berkley TriMAX mono for the 5500 and 6500 capacities I gave, and use 
it for all our reels.  TriMAX is a little thinner than Berkley Trilene XT, 
but thicker than Trilene XL.  I don't know how it differs from Stren, but I 
doubt it's much.  All of the premium lines are pretty much the same there, 
with the harder ones like Ande and Berkley Big Game a little thicker still.
But no giant swing from best case to worst.

I fill the spools to about 3/32" of the edge.  The manufacturers all say 
to fill them to 1/8" of the edge, so mine are a little fuller than spec.
I never measured how much more it would take to fill them to overflowing, 
but it doesn't sound like that last 3/32" is going to double the capacity 
on my 6500.  Anybody have an idea?

Tom

	   A matter of a few mils (.001s for non mechanical folks) in the
	diameter can make a -big- difference in the reel capacity.  A guy
	in a tackle shop in Venice FL convinced me to try Bagleys Blue
	Label, a very thin class line.  He filled my Penn 550, the older
	metal housed version of the 5500, and the spool easily took 75 yds.
	more than the listed capacity for 12 lb.!  After using Stren for
	most of my life it made me start looking at other lines.  Now I use
	nothing but the thinner mono except for heavy salt where I still
	use Stren.

	   While I'm rambling, be aware that most Penn conventional reels
	have to be manually engaged after a cast, unlike freshwater 
	baitcasters and the larger Abus.

					B.C.

Speaking of rambling, my apologies for the disk space I've been consuming.
OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder) is tough to live with.  I checked last 
night, and 160/17 is indeed how I fill my 6500.  The diameter is .016" for 
17 lb TriMax, same as Stren.  But maybe this is the answer:

I tied the line on the 6500 to the bulk spool and filled it until it was 
within one line diameter of touching the cross-post, which also had it just 
overflowing the rim of the spool.  That gave me 80 more yds for 240 total.

Am I being too conservative when filling my reels?  Is there a degradation 
in casting performance when you fill them right to the top?  Why would the 
manufacturer recommend that you leave 1/8" of spool showing?

Thanks,
Tom

Well, this is certainly a lively discussion.  I think we ought to propose the
idea to Kay Moulton (Surfland) -- Maybe the Plum Island Surfcasters can add
their weight (I think about joining every year.)  The reps might go for it. 
This is the problem with the fishing shows, no place to make a long surf cast.

I (personally) wouldn't use stren line if it was the only line on the planet. 
I'd give up fishing first.  I have never had good luck with it.  That goes for
their kevlar as well.

The other option is for us to all get together with what we have and have our
own side-by-side comparison.  I have often exchanged rod&reel with someone
fishing schoolies in the river.  Mainly to convince them of the blast you can
have with schoolies on 8# test and a med-action fresh water rod with a 4400SS
reel.  I've converted a lot of people in the past two years.

One other comment -- I have only caught one bonito in my life but everything
I've heard and read about them is that they are too line-shy for 12# test and to
keep it to 8#.  Tom, what brand of 12# are you catching them on?  My fish made a
lot of short zig-zag runs but I've seen them make VERY long runs.  While they
are a tough fish, they are not as touch as false albacores -- I watched a 12#
false albacore EMPTY a 650SS full of 15# TWICE from the angler's feet.  Took the
guy 25 minutes to land the fish.  I suspect his drag wasn't set correctly but I
couldn't tell you for sure.  I landed the fish for him so I know it was a good
one.

Man, I'm getting all excited for summer now...

I guess I could go down to my local pond an go trout fishing ... WITHOUT MY
AUGER!

Later on, 

Tim

    re: bonito/false albacore/little tunny
    
     I've caught little tunny (which I think is the same thing as a false
    albacore) using (probably) 50 lb test, from a party boat in VA (rented
    equipment.) They aren't _that_ line shy, but they certainly put up a
    good accounting of themselves.

    re: I'd give up fishing first.
    
    Tim, do me a favor, walk into the mens room, look in the mirror, and 
    give yourself a good slap... 8^)

	RE: .24

	Tim,
		If you don't mind terribly, I'll keep using Stren, even
	if it doesn't meet your requirements.  I've tried about a dozen
	different lines in the past couple years, some are good, some are
	bad, I just happen to like what I use.  You know what they say about
	opinions, everybody has one, some of them a little more arrogant
	than others. 8^]

	RE: .23

	Tom,
		Don't fill them any more than you're comfortable with.
	Make sure it's wound on tightly so you don't have problems with
	the line digging in when under pressure.  The Mfrs. recommend a
	low fill so that as you fish and wind in line under less pressure
	you won't end up with a spool that's too full.  I like my reels
	-full-, I feel that they cast better that way.  More line = larger
	diameter = less revolutions of the spool for a given length of line.
	Some people fill them less so they won't backlash as easily.

					B.C.

	Hmmm... I must have a Sockeye on 2lb. Stren story here somewhere
	so I can show that it's the -only- line to use... 8^P

Tim,

I heard that about bonito and false albacore too, that they're line shy.
But I'd already caught a bunch of them on 12#, so I started experimenting, 
and found that 8# vs 12# makes no difference at all when using artificials.
They'll either hit or they won't, period.  The size, color, and especially 
the presentation are what's important.

People who liveline with sand eels or silversides and a #10 hook always do 
better with a light line, but I'm not convinced it's because the fish can 
see it.  I think it's just the stiffness making the bait look rediculous.  
That's because I also use 12# when fly fishing for them and it still makes 
no difference.  But I use a loop knot on the fly, and the liveliners use a 
clincher.  Flies don't move very fast, so they're easy to scrutinize like 
live bait.  A friend of mine is very successful using a flyrod and a 17# 
leader with a loop knot!

I use the 12# line so I can muscle the fish some and hopefully land them 
before they kill themselves.  It's TriMax (.013").  I also hate Stren.  
It tends to kink up into a mess, and that fluorescent blueish color is 
ugly.  I also wouldn't touch Berkely Trilene XT because it tastes awful.
If I can taste it, the fish must be able to smell it.  I use TriMax for 
everything.  Conventional, spinning, and even saltwater fly leader tippets.  
It has just the right combination of stiffness, softness, and toughness, 
plus it has great knot strength.  The TriMax being sold now is shinier 
though, not the flat neutral finish I have, so I will switch over to 
Climax or some fluorocarbon for saltwater fly tippets.

You're right, false albacore are much tougher than bonito - bonito with a 
turbo.  A 15 pounder can definitely empty a 550 full of 12# (275 yds) with 
the drag correctly set.  I've never seen a 12 lb false albacore run that far 
even on 12# line, but you never know.  If the drag were correctly set with 
15# line you would think the hook would either bend or tear out of his 
mouth, the fish are that strong.  Their mouths aren't as hard as a bonito's.  
Bonito usually run a lot further when you catch them from shore.  From a 
boat they most often zigzag and try to go deep, more like a strong bluefish.

Tom

RE .25
I don't have a real boat (yet), so all of my bonito and false albacore 
have been caught from shore or my canoe.  Both of them are more often than 
not downright finicky when near shore.  They are pelagic fish, so I guess 
they're out of their element and perhaps fearful.  But I've heard that 
out in deep water they will basically hit anything including a bare hook, 
and are widely used as an easy to obtain bait for billfish.  False albacore 
and little tunny are the same fish.  Stupid names, huh?  Each of them saying 
that it's not quite something else instead of saying what it is?

RE: .27
Sorry, I actually love that foxy blue Stren color ;)
I guess I'll stick to a thin spool, as I still get a backlash now and then 
especially in the wind.  BTW, I got a backlash pick from Bass Pro, and it's 
a great invention.  A handle with a stout pin sticking out that is bent over 
double at the end, and a cap and pocket clip so it looks like a pen.  The 
clip is on the handle instead of the cap though, so the business end won't 
fall out.

RE: .18
One other thing about Abu reels, relating to .10's no backlash desires,
they all have a centrifugal break.  On the 7000 it has 4 removable weights 
so you can adjust it.  Shimano's patented Vaiable Brake System one-ups that 
with 6 weights that can be individually disengaged without removing them.  
But they don't make an Abu 7000.

    Please continue line specifc discussion in topic 427, I moved a few of
    the line specifc notes from there already...
    

    Hi, while cleaning the rafters of a friend's grandmothers old house we
    came across a long surf rod that seems to be in real good condition. It
    seems to be fiberglas but I would gues it's thirty (or more?) years
    old.  The 'eyes' that the line passes through are very small as opposed
    to the very large ones for my surf rod.  Because of that I cannot use a 
    spinning reel I'm told - I guess the line wouldn't be cast properly
    because of the small diameter holes.  Anyway, I was wondering if anyone
    might have a recommendation for a good bait casting (?) reel that would
    allow for a decent setup for my nephews to use when they come along to
    fish along the shoreline with me.
    
    Thanks,
    The Rookie
    (Marc)

    Unless you want to spend all your time untangling birdsnests, I would
    strongly recommend you not buy a baitcaster for you nephews to use when
    they come up.  I know from personal experience and from fishing with
    many others who baitcast,  baitcasters will occasionally give any of 
    us a birdsnest.  You couple inexperience, wind and a long pole and
    your giving yourself a heck of a fun night. 8^)
    
    Brian