Conference wahoo::fishing-v2

I'm not certain yet that the current canoe launch which will be made into a 
full launch for boats is indeed in the state park.  That really isn't clear 
in ano of the correspondence or articles I've read.  If so, then I suspect 
that not only will you have to pay to get in, but you may have problems 
getting in to launch either real early in the A.M. or in the evening.

Here's a couple of people who you can talk to.  I've been meaning to but 
haven't had the chance yet.  If you call them, let us know what they say.

	John J. Gryval, Jr.
	Chairman
	State of NH
	Public Water Access Advisory Board
	2 Hazen Dr. 
	Concord, NH  03301
	(603) 271-2224

or

	Jonathan White
	Chairman
	Pawtuckaway Lake Fisheries Committee
	(603) 895-9681

    Pretty sure Fish and Game Highlights reported a few months ago that the
    new launch will be free and available after hours.
    
    I see this as good news.  The mile long no-wake zone out of fundy was a
    pain in the butt if you wanted to fish someplace else.  Plus lots of 
    yee-ha's ignored the no-wake zone.  Plus the road to the old launch was
    out of the way and terrible.  A new launch in the park sounds good to
    me - assuming it's free and available after hours.
    
    -donmac

    	Was talking to a friend of mine the other day and he said the lake 
    is still real low. Apparently, some association members that live on the
    lake are trying the get the back boat ramp closed. Not sure, but I
    think they also control the dam too.
    
    	I heard that they were handing out pamphlets claiming that the wakes 
    from boats washing up against the shores were releasing phosphorus into 
    the water. Sounds like another case of stealth tactics.
    
    	I could be wrong, but I thought that phosphorus is what they add to
    laundry detergent under the name of "fabric brighteners". If this is
    true, then the real cause of the problem are likely some of the same 
    people that are handing out the pamphlets that have leach field problems.
    
    	If anyone goes up there and runs into any of these people, you
    might want to ask them who they represent and what their ultimate goal
    is. They'll probably tell you that they only want to insure a clean
    lake for everyone, but it sounds a lot more like the "My private
    lake syndrome" we've all heard of or seen at one time or another.
    
    	Ray

    Geez...I was thinking of fishing Pawtuckaway this weekend.  Is the lake
    too low to launch and motor out of the Fundy ramp?
    
    I think the dam is controlled by the state.  It's a waterway and they
    can't be controlled privately.  I've got a stream that flows through my
    property and I cannot dam it up, divert it or do anything to change its
    direction or impede its flow.
    
    Maybe I'll go to the Merrimack and hope my 25hp motor is enough to deal
    with the current!! 8>)
    
    -Joe-

    	Joe,
    
    	It's just low for this time of year. If they put the boards back 
    in the dam, the last rain may have brought it up a bit, but it is
    fishable. The water is still very cold.
    
    	The back ramp apparently goes down too steeply now. From what I
    heard, the running water from the river has eroded away quite a bit 
    of the ramp area. If you have a 4x4, you'll probably be OK, but my
    friends 2-wheel drive F150 got stuck trying to pull out his TX17
    Tracker a few days ago.
    
    	RAYJ

<    is. They'll probably tell you that they only want to insure a clean
<    lake for everyone, but it sounds a lot more like the "My private
<    lake syndrome" we've all heard of or seen at one time or another.
    
Ray,

   Not to rat-hole, but you've just hit a personal hot-button.  When the
general public is willing to spend the same kind of money the lakefront owners
do to keep up the lakes, then I'll support the "free and equal access to all"
mentality.  I have a cottage on a small lake in Ct. When I lived in the area it
cost me about $35/"day on the lake" in taxes. Also it's primarily I and my
neighbors who are the ones cleaning up the trash left by all (lakefront owners
and ramp-rats alike.) 

   Ray, I suspect you might be the exception but how many ramp-boaters do
you think would be willing to fork over even half that in ramp fees?  Not many
I suggest... People who want equal access should contribute their fair share to
the maintenance. Today they do not.

Al
been-through-this-discussion-at-length-in-boating-conference

        re:.6

    	Didn't mean to ignore you; just got back from vacation. I'm not
    sure what you mean by "it costs me $35/day on the lake". If you're
    talking about property taxes, then we all pay them. 

    	I also need to clean trash up off the front of my property that 
    people lob out the window of their cars. Nothing new here. It sucks 
    just as much on land. Prevailing winds and all, you can potentially 
    wind up with more or less depending where you are on the lake.

    	As far as ramps and maintenance, I'm referring to state owned and
    maintained ramps. My understanding is that some of the money collected
    for fishing/hunting licenses goes towards maintaining "public" ramps.
    I also thought that some amount from boat registration went towards that
    too, but I may be wrong. If this is true, then we're all paying, so
    I'm not sure I understand the personal hot-button thing. If it's not,
    I'm sure you'll enlighten me ;-)

    	RAYJ

No flame...

    As an example I'll use my own situation (as it was when I lived in central
Mass and was able to use my cottage in Ct on the weekends.) 

    I paid (still do) about $1000/year in property taxes for my lakefront Ct.
property.  I was able to use the lake weekends from Mid May through Labor Day;
16 weekends (32 days), + 10 weekdays during a vacation so let's say I COULD use
the lake 42 days a year, but realistically I would only use it 32 days because
of other obligations. 1000/32 = about $31/day.  So everyday I used the lake it
cost me $31 (when I went through this exersize before it came out to $35.)
Regarding the other services the taxes provide besides the maintenance of the
lake itself (oh by the way weed control etc. was paid by separate assement, not
through the property taxes) everyone who uses the public ramp gets the same
police and fire protection while they are in town, so I think we're even there.
This is a summer cottage only so the cost of educating my children is not an
issue either. 

    I'm not disputing anyone's "right" to use the recreational facilities in
MA, CT, NH or wherever you live.  I'm only suggesting the weekend boater
be willing to pay his fair share for the upkeep and maintenence of that 
resource for the days he uses that resource, in this example a ramp fee of
$30-$35/day would be appropriate. How many people you know would cheerfully pay
that much? Very few I would suggest.

    You speak of "public ramps".  Why should the taxes for anyone who doesn't
use the facility go toward maintaining that facility. The "public" who uses
the ramp, who uses the lake should be the only ones paying for lake and the
ramp, not my grandmother who's never been within 20 miles of the place.

    I guess it's my hot-button because I got tired of fishing the beer & soda 
cans, McDonald's bags, milk jugs, 6-pack carriers etc. from the lake that were
put there by some slob who paid his $3 to get into the State Park. I realize
a fair amount of that junk came from people who have places on the lake, but at
least they are helping to pay for the resource, the guy who trailered in from 
the next county isn't. 

Al

    No flame here either.
    
    Ill pay $35 per day - IF you let me use your cottage. I think thats
    what your paying for. You are not paying for the tax for USE of the lake. 
    
    OK - maybe the taxes would not be as high, if the cottage was deep in
    the woods. You do pay premium taxes for waterfront.
    
    BUT the issue is the extra trash carried in my slob visitors. AND some
    (repeat some) of all the vistors are slobs, just like the tax paying
    residents. (some of the visitors are fishermen too - and are slobs)
    
    Our Bass club could clean a ramp every week and still find trash the 
    following weekend. These are fisherpeople doing this. Unless the 
    picknicing public has suddenly found a taste bud for worms in styrofoam
    cups.
    
    The real issue might be the extra boat traffic that the 'public ramp' 
    brings with it. Everyplace is getting more crowded and more crowded.
    
    Like I said. No flame. I dont know the answer. I do know the property 
    owner has a bigger tax - but he also has a bigger investment or ASSEST 
    too. 
    
    We really have more need for navigatable water than we have.
    Is this a NE thing? In the south, where I think (key word is think)
    they have presently more water than need, is this a big issue like
    here?

        re:8

    	As Jack said, you're paying property taxes, not lake use taxes.
    It's not really accurate to say that your paying $35 (or even $31) to 
    use the lake. You may pay a bit more taxes for waterfront, but when/if
    you sell, it's also worth more. That's what you're paying extra for.

    	In this particular case relative to Pawtuckaway, if in fact
    phosphorus is getting into the water, it's likely due to faulty septic
    systems of waterfront owners. If this is the case, the petition 
    Pawtuckaway association members are trying to get people to sign is 
    bogus. That's the main point of my note. From what I heard, the F&G
    people are on to them, according to friend of mine that called F&G.

    	Ray

<    	As Jack said, you're paying property taxes, not lake use taxes.
<    It's not really accurate to say that your paying $35 (or even $31) to 
<    use the lake. You may pay a bit more taxes for waterfront, but when/if
<    you sell, it's also worth more. That's what you're paying extra for.

    Slight Nit...that's what I pay my mortgage for, not my taxes. Property 
taxes are generally levied to pay for public services provided by the community
and the State. In my case I do not use those services anymore than does the
visiting public, therefore I am paying significantly more for the same services,
or in this case lake access, the non-lakefront owner is demanding. When the
Lake Association approached the Town and the State requesting assistance in
weed control, we were told to stick-it, there was no obligation, nor any
intention for the state or the town to help us (there is a State Park on the
lake.)  The lake was treated through donations from the lakefront owners.
Very few of the Public Ramp users were willing to donate even a few dollars
to help out. Their attitude seemed to be, well if this lake gets all choked up
with weeds, we'll just trailer our boat to some other lake. Somehow it just
don't seem fair... 

    Again, I'm not for a moment suggesting I or any lakefront owner has the
right to restrict access to the lake, but rather I believe a realistic ramp or
beach fee paid by everyone who wants to use the resource should be made to pay
an equitable price for the upkeep of that body of water. 

Al

>>       As Jack said, you're paying property taxes, not lake use taxes.
>>    It's not really accurate to say that your paying $35 (or even $31) to 
>>    use the lake. You may pay a bit more taxes for waterfront, but when/if
>>    you sell, it's also worth more. That's what you're paying extra for.
>
>    Slight Nit...that's what I pay my mortgage for, not my taxes. Property
>taxes are generally levied to pay for public services provided by the 
>community and the State. In my case I do not use those services anymore than
>does the visiting public, therefore I am paying significantly more for the 
>same services, or in this case lake access, the non-lakefront owner is
>demanding.

I think I dissagree with that statement.  You are paying for the same 
services as does a full time resident, you just arn't using the services.  
You can rationalize that your TAX money just goes for the services you do use 
(boat ramp) but it's not the case.  You subsidize the residents by paying for 
the service but not using them.  ( I pay a large sum of my taxes for schools 
and I never had any kids but thems the breaks )  If you feel that as a 
weekend trailer boater you can get the same service and enjoyment why not 
sell you cottage?  It's just costing you money and personel hot buttons.

keith

<I think I dissagree with that statement.  You are paying for the same 
<services as does a full time resident, you just arn't using the services.  
<...

    You are quite right, I am rationalizing. I pay twice. Once where I live and
once at the lake. Dem's da breaks. My point is that a "quality" recreational
resource IS worth the $30+ dollars/day-of-use it costs me to maintain it. I
contend the majority of the users don't value the resource that high. If the
lake gets fouled, they'll just move on to another lake until all the lakes are
gone. When that happens they'll complain they have no nice place to go... I'm
sure the noters in this conference are the exception to that generality;-);-) 

<...If you feel that as a weekend trailer boater you can get the same service 
<and enjoyment why not sell you cottage?  It's just costing you money and 
<personel hot buttons.

    Believe me we've talked about it alot over the years since we moved out
of New England. BUT someday...someday I'm going to live from Memorial Day
through Labor Day on the lake and Sept through May here in Florida. I only owe
about $16K on the place now. I'm holding it for that future when my per-day
costs will go way down because I'm spending so much more time there. By then
I'll own it free and clear. At that time I'll emotionally accept that my tax
dollars are providing me more than the guys using the public ramp. At that time
I'll be using more of the town services.  Right now I can't even get a resident
fishing license:-(:-( It's government's way of exacting the most they can from
each of us regardless whether or not it's fair or makes any sense. The rules
are set up by politicians who feel that if you can't vote me out, then I don't
care if you get shafted. Tell it to the Chaplin. 

Al

OBTW I'm sure my home state, Florida, sets the national standard for sucking
as much $$ from the part time residents as possible, but that don't make it
right.

<<I think I dissagree with that statement.  You are paying for the same 
<<services as does a full time resident, you just arn't using the services.  
<<...
<
<    You are quite right, I am rationalizing. I pay twice. Once where I live 
<and once at the lake. Dem's da breaks. My point is that a "quality" 
<recreational resource IS worth the $30+ dollars/day-of-use it costs me to 
<maintain it. I contend the majority of the users don't value the resource 
<that high. If the

The majority would value the resource that high.  The "quality recreation 
resource" you pay for is the camp on the lake not the boat ramp access.

I always wanted a place on a lake but couldn't afford the cost.  Things have 
changed.  I now own a home about 200 yards from Winni.  I value it enough 
that I will pay the taxes whatever they turn out to be.  I value it enough 
that I sold my house in Nashua and drive 2 hours one way to work.  I may get 
tired of the commute and get an appartment locally but for right now it was 
nice getting home last night and listening to the loons on the lake and 
having a deer snort at me while sitting on the back deck.  As a resident of 
the town I will vote to quality but not extravigent education for the 
resident kids.  I will vote to provide necessary services catering to the 
non-resident property owners.  I am strongly apposed to anything that limits 
access to tax payers only.  If the access becomes over crowded I would 
support an access fee provided the money went to support the access and 
additional parking.

keith

<The majority would value the resource that high.  The "quality recreation 
<resource" you pay for is the camp on the lake not the boat ramp access.

    You've found "the chink in my armor."  My day at the lake lasts 24 hours.
The ramp-boater's is only 5 or 6.

<that I will pay the taxes whatever they turn out to be.  I value it enough 
<that I sold my house in Nashua and drive 2 hours one way to work.  I may get 
<tired of the commute and get an appartment locally but for right now it was 
<nice getting home last night and listening to the loons on the lake and 
<having a deer snort at me while sitting on the back deck.  As a resident of 
<...
<non-resident property owners.  I am strongly apposed to anything that limits 
<access to tax payers only.  If the access becomes over crowded I would 
<support an access fee provided the money went to support the access and 
<additional parking.

    At this point we are in complete agreement...

Al