Conference wahoo::fishing-v2

    The most important things to remember about a snapper, other than that
    it is very shy and not at all aggressive, are that its neck is very
    long, its jaws are very powerful, and its reflexes are lightning
    fast. Snapping turtles are reported to be much stronger than they
    appear.

    There is no safe place to grab a snapping turtle other than its
    tail. Even this is not foolproof, apparently. The only professional
    snapper hunter I have heard of only has 6 or 7 fingers. I guess every
    once in a while he's come across a snapper that can actually reach
    around to its tail. 
    
    I have come across many snappers in the Shawsheen River, both on the
    surface and underwater, and they have always done their best to avoid
    me.
    
    Given that it will probably never let you get close enough to
    catch it to kill it, that there really is no safe way to handle it if
    you succeed in catching it, and that snappers are territorial by
    nature, I suggest you move your dock.
    
    <grin>
    
    John H-C

    If you want to eliminate the turtle, I'd try fishing for it with a
    set line much the way people fish for catfish in the deep south.
    Check local regulations, though to see what is legal.
    
    The biggest turtle I ever saw was one night we were fishing for crappie
    with small minnows and cane poles on an oxbow lake in Mississippi.  We
    weren't doing much, then one of the corks sunk about 2 inches.  It
    didn't budge at first, then slowly started coming up.  We thought we
    had one of those huge catfish, instead a turtle head slowly appeared.
    It was huge!  The head was at least 6" across.  Of course, he took
    one look around and decided to go elsewhere and it was nothing we
    could do about it.
    
    Mark,
    

    
      if you wish to dispatch this turtle here is one way of doing so.
     
      get a BIG saltwater hook with a steel leader, tie on about 20 feet of 
    clothes line to the steel leader, tie the clothes line to a secure
    object, tie an empty milk jug 2 feet above the hook, get a big piece of
    chicken skin and thread it on the hook and throw the jug and hook in by
    the dock.
     
           if you catch the turtle, and dont plan on eating it or giving it 
    to someone to eat then one way to dispatch it is to shoot it.
    
     if you want to transplant it someplace else, get a big and long
    handled net, and a good sized wire cage, when the turtle tries to
    escape from the dock stick the net in front of it, then very quickly
    get him into the cage close the door and transport it to other
    location.
    
       I will say that these creatures are very warry of humans and most
    generally stike from being agrivated, or cornered, and they are NOT to 
    be treated as pets or show pieces, they are a very docile but very 
    dangerous animal. I have seen snapping turtle bite completely through
    a piece of 3/4 " OAK board so they will amputate a finger or toe or
    even a good chunk of your hand or foot, and it would be done before you
    would ever be able to move away from them.
    
                                                               Lee
    

 Catch yourself a 12-14" bass and put it on a nylon stringer on 
the end of your dock. Get yourself a lawn chair and a book and wait
until the snapper shows up to collect the easy meal. If you have a 
pistol it can be a one person operation; otherwise use a shotgun and 
have two people involved. When she grabs the bait, she will likely be 
unwilling to give it up. Pull her head out of the water and shoot
her in the head. Be careful! The snapper will most likely swim away 
at this point to find a good place to die (unless you use a shotgun.)
Make sure you get a good shot as you will likely only have one chance.

 The only other way to properly dispatch them is to use a long stick 
to get them to stretch their neck out and chop the head off with an
axe. The axe will have to be very sharp, and you have to be able to
swing hard. Also, this works best on land, for obvious reasons.

    RE .3
    
    A long-handled net???
    
    My guess is that a turtle as big around as a 55-gallon drum weighs close to
    100 pounds.  I think professional assistance is in order, unless (.0)
    thinks that netting a 100+ pound snapper is alot of fun.  This doesn't
    sound like a DIY project for an inexperienced trapper.
    
    The local fish & game commission could probably recommend ways, or
    actually get involved in, eliminating the problem that will be mutually
    satisfying, ie., the turtle will suffer no harm, and the dock area will
    be safe once again.
    
    Good luck
    
    
    		-mike-

    Why not just leave him alone?  I grew up on a lake that was full of
    snappers.  Never heard of one "attacking" anybody, except for us
    kids who use to catch'em.
    
    Jeff

    Indeed, why not just leave it alone? If it's been there for two years
    already and hasn't harmed anybody, then why not just accept it as local
    wildlife? A turtle that big has been around at least as long as you
    have.
    
    Thanks for saying it first, Jeff.
    
    John H-C

    Since the turtle obviously likes hanging out under your dock maybe
    there is some way you could persuade it to move on. Any way you could
    block its access to the dock [add rocks, net, tires, whatever till it
    decides to split]? Would seem to me that with all the engineering
    talent around here we ought to be able to come up with a better
    solution than just killing a magnificent and very old beast; albeit
    with some pretty exotic methods. 
    
    My guess is that this critter is probably smart enough to know when he/she is
    not wanted. A little more friendly persuasion might do the trick. Local
    fish and game or wildlife folks might have some wisdom. If you really
    crave turtle soup I think maybe SS Pierce still sells it in cans. 
    
    

    I can't say I've ever handled a 100# snapper, but a couple of 50# have come
my way.  What my brother and I would do is to aggravate them into snapping onto
the middle of a big stick, them pick up the stick by the ends, letting the
turtle swing and carry him off to someplace more suitable.  It's tough to kill
them.  Back in '61 or '62 we stabbed one with a big iron crowbar and left it for
dead on the side of the road (we were kids and didn't know any better at the 
time).  The next morning it was gone.  About 3 years later we caught one that
had this big ugly scar across the back of its shell.  We always assumed it was
the same animal.  She was carried off to the swamp and let go this time.

    Having mellowed since I was 10 years old, I'd have to agree with the last
couple about either discouraging her access to the dock, or cart her off to
another part of the lake (or someone else's lake).


Al

    Well, I really appreciate the responses made to this note.  Sounds like
    we have a topic which people are interested in discussing and have had
    some experience with be it good, bad, or indifferent.  Lets keep em
    coming.... Turtle Troubadours and Turtle Warriors alike!
    
    I am rather bold by nature however this monster of a creature has
    caused me to pause for some additional "inward reflection".  Caution
    seems to be the keyword for this note.  Vacation time is fast
    approaching for me and I do not wish to entertain anyone on a spring
    episode of Rescue 911.
    
    Eric
    
    

    I'd attempt to harvest it before going thru the expense of trying to
    "turtle proof" your dock.  I don't know much about turtles, but it
    wouldn't suprize me that if you moved it, it may just find its way
    back.  I'd call fish and game and ask them if you can harvest it, 
    and if so, how.
    
    -donmac

When I was a teen we had a turtle of simialar size in our yard. It was a little
smaller then the one you discribed. I was poking at it with a 2 x 4 with was 
about 4 ft long. Well it locked onto the end of the 2 by and split it. 
Making TWO 2 x 2, 4 ft long. 


				These thing have very powerfull jaws
                                             Jim

    
     Thay also belive it or not can hop/lunge!  When I was a kid thay
     would come up the brook to lay eggs, and we would get a willow
     switch and snap them in the ass with it! boy can thay hop!! Gee
     some of the things you do as kids.
                                                  K'

    So far, it looks like this from all the responses so far:
    
    They won't bother you if you don't bother them. In fact, they will stay
    away from you if they can. (As in, you only see it swimming *away* from
    your dock when you approach.)
    
    If you do decide to hassle it, be careful because it is a formidable
    creature.
    
    Sounds to me like the thing to do is leave it alone so it can leave you
    alone.
    
    No?
    
    John H-C

    	Ah... Pan fried Snapper!  Mmmm good!  My family grew up with them
    all around both the pond in our yard and the brook down back.  One of
    my brothers supplemented his groceries for years with them.  A very
    simple way to catch them (if you plan to kill it) is to take a piece of
    plywood of appropriate size (You'll need about 2'x6' from your
    description) and screw a dozen or so LARGE saltwater fish hooks in an
    array on one half of the plywood.  Orient the hooks so the points all
    face the same way, toward the end where you installed the hooks.  Mount
    the plywood like a ramp with the hooked end at the top and the bottom
    in the water.  Tack a small smelly piece of bait to the wood so it's
    partially submerged and another larger piece at the very top of the
    ramp.  The turtle finds the wet bait then the dry bait, crawls to the
    top for the dry bait and gets hooked when it tries to get back down.
    It's simple and you're not putting yourself at risk.
    	I sure wouldn't leave the turtle under the dock!  I can see it now:
    
    Hot summer night, sitting on the dock fishing, beer in hand, feet
    hanging in the water inches from the turtles mouth....  NO THANKS!
    Kind of like letting a wild dog hang around in your garage cause it
    hasn't hurt anyone.....YET.
    					B.C.
    
    Oh Ya...  That brother just moved to Florida, I can't wait to find out
    if he's going after the Alligator Snappers down there!  They get BIG!!!

    If it was me I would try and get the turtle to latch onto a large 2x6x8
    and carry the critter into the back of my pickup truck and take a long
    ride and find a new home for him/her.
    
    	It would probably never attack ya unless you attacked it and
    knowing my luck I would be running down the dock one morning to jump in
    for a morning swim and notice "Mr Turtle" is swimming already. Problem
    is I'm already in the air and heading towards his shell..
    
    	Hows that song go with "my ding-a-ling??

       I've never heard of snappers actually attacking anyone...but they do
    have nasty jaws. When we were kids we'd aggravate one now and then and
    a 25 pounder could snap a broom handle in two very easily..
    
       The are good to eat, but one as big as this one may be a bit
    over-the-hill and tougher'n leather....the smaller ones are usually the
    ones that folks would go for to eat... Also, if you do catch him to
    eat, make sure you talk to someonw who knows what they are doing when
    you clean them, because there's a piece that you want to discard due to
    it's extremely fishy taste... Turtle IS good though...makes fine soup
    too...
    
       The one reason that I'd probably try to get this guy eliminated is
    that snappers are hell on small creatures such as baby ducks and geese.
    If there are any breeding ducks in that pond/lake of yours, the babies
    chances of surviving to adulthood are somewhere between very slim and
    none.... Snappers will swim under swimming baby ducks and grab their
    feet and pull them under...we had one in the pond across the street
    from where I currently live eliminate an entire family of 9 baby
    Mallards before my neighbor succeeded in getting it with a .222....
    
    
    JM
    

    On the other hand, a snapper consuming ducklings and goslings is one of
    the few natural ways left to slow eutrophication of a pond. The
    fertilization of the water created by unchecked water fowl populations
    can alter the character of a lake or pond in less than a decade.
    (Just for the record, I am *not* saying that ducks and geese don't
    belong on the water or that they are necessarily bad for the water.) 
    
    Most of the predators that would have kept the duck and goose populations 
    in check are now gone because they aren't able to share habitat with people.
    Largemouth bass also consume ducklings and goslings, though Maine is a
    bit too far north for them to reach a size where they can eat something
    that large.
    
    John H-C

      
      Re .20,
       Yeah, I have no argument with that if the population is large, but
    on the other hand, most Mallards that nest around this area are usually
    lone pairs, and a lot of these ponds are bordered by farms and cow
    pastures, so eliminating ducks in situations like this won't help
    much...one cow cna drop as much waste in one fell spluup!! as 20 ducks
    will in an entire season.
    
       Then again, it wouldn't be too bad if about 8,000 HUGE snappers
    showed up on the south Ct. shore....Swans have virtually destroyed most
    of the seaside areas... I wouldn't have believed how bad they can mess
    things up if I hadne't seen it for myself....the entire shore for aobut
    3-400 yards inland is a slick, slimey, gooey, smelly mess from the swan
    droppings...They've killed all the lawns, most or the shrubs, and the
    trees may not be far behind. Protected by Federal regulations, the
    residents have been unable to drive them away... I understand that
    Canadian Geese have also done similar damage when they congregate in
    areas where they aren't natural inhabitants..
    
      JM

       Gee, where's ol' coonass when we need him? I'll bet he'd have a
    quick solution for this 'problem'!!
                                 Denny  8^)

Re Turtles vs ducks>
	I don't know the exact status of Mallards vs
snappers but I do know that in Maine the F & G folks
go to great lengths to protect snapping turtle nest 
sights. This leads me to believe that they are on the
decline. Many turtles in Maine are considered 
endangered. 
	Perhaps we should not be so quick to dispatch
these animals just because they kill other animals that
we also like to kill.
Paul

P.S. This is not a flame, so please don't take it that 
way. Just my $0.02

    Relocation is your best bet. Even though they are afraid of man, your
    toes look pretty tasty to him under that there dock. I also as a kid
    used to catch these and mud turtles which also closely resemble a
    snapper. 
    
    The pond we fished had snappers that would bob for apples we
    tossed out for them. Ducks, geese, fish, tennis balls, and even kids
    were snapped by small ones. The larger they are, the deeper they go, 
    the nastier they get. They are also very territorial and could mistake
    you for an invader!  
    
    Our success was with 300 lb test deep sea line, and hot dogs on a hook.
    Watch for the line to slowly start to creep away, and drag them ashore.
    If relocated to the other shore line where he will remain, you and he 
    will be better off.
    
    Dave'

    
    
    		WHEN I WAS A KID, BACK IN THE FIFTIES I LIVED ON A SMALL
    	POND. WE HAD A LARGE SNAPPING TURTLE NAMED "BIG JOE" LIVING IN THE
    	PONDS SWAMPLY END FOR A LONG TIME. IF MY MEMORY SERVES ME HE WAS
    	THE BIGGEST I HAD EVER SEEN , SOUNDS LIKE THE ONE UNDER THE DOCK.
    		WELL EVERYONE THOUGHT IT WAS NEAT TO WATCH THE DUCKS AT
    	NIGHT TO SEE ONE DISSAPEAR BELOW THE SURFACE, NEVER TO BE SEEN
    	AGAIN. THIS WENT ON FOR A FEW YEARS UNTIL IT (BIG JOE) BIT A KID
    	VISITING RELATIVES ACROSS THE LAKE. IT WAS THEN HIM OR US. WE USED
    	A MODIFIED SNAKE SNARE ( ROPE ON A LONG POLE. ) AND DRAGGED HIM 
    	ACROSS THE LAKE TO THE MAIN BEACH AREA , WHERE ONE OF THE LOCAL 
    	COPS PUT 3 OR 4 SLUGS INTO HIM.
    		OLD TURTLES HAVE NO ENEMIES AND SOON BECOME AGRESSIVE 
    	WHEN FOOD GETS SCARCE AND THEY SLOW DOWN.
    
    
    				SHOOT THE SUCKER........
    

    A few years ago the tranquility where I was fishing would be
    shattered when I noticed a large 6 to 8 " head look at me while
    I fished for bass in a bellyboat.  This secluded spot had great
    smallies, perch, etc. and often I would have a stringer of 2 or more
    connected to the inflatable tube.  I'll never forget the first time when
    Mr. SNAPPER showed up 10 to 15 feet away.  Maybe, it was the stringer
    of fish, maybe the 3" minnows I was using for bait,in any case they 
    never bothered me.  Although, at times, when I was rocking in the waves
    and I'd look over to the spots I'd seen snappers before, I'd wonder...
    	
    	- is a 3/8ths wet suit colored dark blue an attractor????
    
    	- should I put the fish in a dive bag not a stringer????
    
    	- do my flippers look like duck feet???? 
    
    	- am I part of the food chain and not really the top???
    
    After awhile I became more comfortable with the snappers and kept an 
    eye out for them.   
    
    I guess I'd feel different today if my three year old was in water
    with just her swim ring.

    Maybe I didn't make this clear before. I have been underwater (in a
    wetsuit, with flippers, looking like your basic diver to any other
    creature beneath the surface) with several snappers of various size. I
    have also been on the surface in the close proximity of several
    snappers. I have nothing but respect for these creatures. They are not
    a danger, in my personal experience, until one intentionally intrudes
    on their "personal space." They will go out of their way to prevent one
    from getting close enough to intrude on their personal space.
    
    I think we'll all be interested in finding out what you finally decide
    to do. 
    
    John H-C

      I have to agree with John.  I've spent my entire life around one pond
    or another.  I grew up a on a big lake that was loaded with snappers.
    Every spring they would lay there eggs on our lawn.  I have never heard
    of one randomly attacking anyone.  The only time I've seen one try to 
    bite anybody was when it was cornered on land.  I've never heard of one
    attacking a swimmer.  If your really paranoid of it then relocate it to
    another isolated pond.  Just make sure that when you pick him up you
    get him by the tail and hold him out away from your body.
    
    Jeff  

 There was a real problem with a rogue snapper in the pond at Camp Carpenter
when I was a boy scout. The terrapin had bitten several people, one of which
had a significant scar. It was shot in the late 70's/early 80's. It's not
just paranoia; some can be a genuine nuisance.

    About 10 years ago my family had a small farm pond directly behind our
    house.  We would loose about 85% of the small ducks every spring to 
    snappers.  One day my brother was swimming in the pond and started
    yelling that something was after him.  He came out of that pond so fast
    he was dry when he hit the bank.  He had a scratch on his side(turtle
    claws, Lochness monster, who knows).  He sure thought it was a turtle
    after him.
    
    I would get rid of him for the simple reason that you will always be
    nervous thinking he's out there, somewhere, waiting.  Go up to Wal-Mart
    and get some heavy duty trotline, attach a big hook with either a
    bluegill or a piece of bacon and throw it out.  I always tie it off to
    a sapling or limb.  If you don't the turtle(if he's huge) will simply
    get down in the mud and back up until the line snaps.  By tying it
    off to a sapling it gives him some play(like a fishing rod).  After
    you get him close enough shoot him.  I know I wouldn't want a big hook
    lodged in my throat and be turned loose somewhere else so I could die
    slowly.  Take the turtle to a local "Beer" joint, someone will probably
    beg for him, they are good eating!
    
    Wess

    I used to go fishing for these with some folks that would eat them,
    plus I used to catch/keep them as a kid, my Mother wasn't thrilled.
    
    1) If you fish for it use a steel leader and either use a chuck of
       sunny,perch, or whatever smells real bad.
    
    2) At dusk/dark set the line where its at and wait for it to take 
       the line.
    
    3) Once it starts moving set the hook, it'll feel like you've got a 
       log on the line.
    
    4) Their pretty calm until they get their feet on the ground, then look
       out. What we used to do was get a garbage can (plastic) that they'd
       fit in. Make a noose to fit over a foot or preferably its tail and 
       get it away from the water. Get the garbage, lay it in front of it
       and force it into the bucket head first, set the bucket upright.
    
    5) Now you can kill it, Relocate it, whatever. I'd opt for the
       relocate unless your going to eat it.
    
    6) All the cautions expressed so far apply, don't get close to its
       head and they can reach 1/2 to 3/4 of the way down their back.
    
    Ray

    
    By taking a length of clothes line, with the turtle on his
    back, you can harness them. The head is usually retracted
    withthe mouth open. Put the 1/2 way point of the rope in his mouth and
    wrap it around the shell and above the legs and tail and tie a
    knot.
    We never had one chew thru one and we caught many when we 
    were kids for the fish'n game club.
    
    Fred

    my suggestion: get some wire fencing, place it around
    the dock--deep enough to keep it away. It seems to like
    it under your dock, so discourage it. after that I'm sure
    it will learn and find some other place to hang out. 
    don't kill the thing---it's another earthling like the
    rest of us.
    
    vin

Well vacation has come and gone and my problem has been solved (at least for
now).  You could say I "Touch'ed my Turtle".


First day of vacation I caught about an 8 - 10 inch bass which I used as 
bait on a wire cable with a couple of big old hooks attached to the end 
of it.  I secured one end of the cable to one side of the dock and then 
dropped the other end of the cable (bait attached) over the other side
of the dock.  This would leave me with plenty of cable later on, if I 
should need it.  I allowed the bait to dangle about 12" from the surface
of the water, which is about 3' to 4' deep at that point.  This way if
I did catch the monster turtle he would not be able to reach the bottom
with his claws allowing him to "dig in and pull etc."

Three days went by with no sign of the turtle, needless to say the bait
was not attacting too many swimming enthusiasts at this point either.
However, the following morning I went out to the dock and the bait was gone!
Also, one of the hooks was straightened out like a pin!  So, I began
again with a new bass and baited the hook in a manner that appeared to me
to hold the fish more securely. The I reset the wire cable for the night.

Bingo! As I walked down towards the dock the following morning I could
actually see it moving back and forth there was also the clanging noise
of the wire cable as it was being tugged.  As I look down I saw one big
snapping turtle.  One of the hooks was long gone (down the hatch).  At
that point I tried the proverbial poking around with the 2 x 4 routine
(pressure treated no less) to get some idea how agressive the snapper was.
Well, he sort of nipped at it but never really latched right on.  I figure
between the wire cable down his throat and not having his claws on the 
ground etc he was not in a position to be as agressive as he otherwise 
might be.

I then took a long handle (as from a rake or hoe) which had a pointed
steel dowel coming out of the end of it about as big around as a pencil
and about 12" long and used this along with a razor sharp long handled
axe to dispatch the turtle.  This apparatus is similar to what you see 
people use to pick up paper from the ground only on a somewhat larger scale.  
About that time I wished thats what I had been using it for.  This was 
all a bit more savage than strikes my fancy however as a result of the 
manner in which things were done I never felt as if I were in danger of
loosing any fingers or toes.  This solution worked for me, I'm not sure
it was the best solution, but it worked.  


Special thanks to all contributors to this note.  Lets keep those
experiences coming.

    
    Did you eat it?

    I bet this turtle is MANY years old and thus 'should' have some rights,
    such as the right to continue living.  Its unfortunate some creatures
    interfere with human territory during the course of their lives but
    why should this turtle have to DIE for doing the same thing your doing,
    i.e. living your life.
    
    If you don't want the turtle around I suggest you use one of the non lethal
    methods to relocate the critter which were outlined in previous
    replies.
    
    If I come across of one of those bleeding heart save the animals nuts
    sorry about that.  This Planets continued existance as a survivable
    place where humans and animals can continue to exist seems to be at
    considerable risk, largely due to human activities.  I suggest that
    BEFORE killing the gopher in your lawn, turtle under your dock, coon
    raiding your trash or whatever that more of us consider non lethal
    alternatives... such as relocating the animal to the wild... whats
    left of the wild that is.
    
    
    
    for humans and animals seems to be at considerable risk

    I should have read all the way through before replying.... too late for
    the turtle now but my position on 'appropriate' methods for solving 
    issues like that still stands.
    
    Jeff

    Jeff ---
    
    That's a body of *water* the turtle was living in. Water is *not* human
    territory. The turtle had to be enticed *out* of the water before this
    person could kill it. That turtle is now dead, but the neurotic fear
    that killed it is undoubtedly still thriving.
    
    The guy is clearly afraid of water and what lives in it. He should
    probably be vacationing in a climate-controlled suburban mall rather
    than near a body of water in Maine. 
    
     
                                                 

    
    My two cents worth-
    
       There was much discussion in this file prior to
    the action taken. All sides were heard on the issue!
    This man read all of this and made what he felt was
    the best decision for his needs. I would prefer that 
    it had lived but I don't have all the facts the this
    gentleman did- so I am not inclined to pass judgement
    upon him!
    
       If animal rights people wish to be listened to and
    respected they should learn to control what they say.
    To say that this man should live in a "mall" because
    of what he did is a cheap shot. Being nasty to one 
    another will only serve to stifle ones willingness to
    communicate in this file.
    
       Bottom line is- give your opinion in a polite and
    educational matter!!!
    
    
     In my opinion- Chet

    Geez, I'll add my 2 cents just to give Jeff a little relief from the  
    animal rights foundation... 
    
    If it were my dock and my kids were afraid of it, I'd say, OK, lets eat
    it. I'm all for the preservation of wildlife, but snappers are not
    endangered and may lawfully be harvested.
    
    To: one of those bleeding heart save the animals nuts 8^)
    
    So your saying that rights increase with age???
    
    -donmac (who's been trying to kill a deer since saturday)

    Geez, I'll add my 2 cents just to give a little relief from the  
    animal rights foundation... 
    
    If it were my dock and my kids were afraid of it, I'd say, OK, lets eat
    it. I'm all for the preservation of wildlife, but snappers are not
    endangered and may lawfully be harvested.
    
    To: one of those bleeding heart save the animals nuts 8^)
    
    So your saying that rights increase with age???
    
    -donmac (who's been trying to kill a deer since saturday)

    relocation of animals that are endangering humans is not always a
    solution either.  To relocate this turtle meant getting it out of the
    water and into some sort of vehical and moving it to another pond.  I
    know I would not want to try and move a snapping turtle of that size. 
    To relocate it to another part of the lake wouldn't work it would just
    come back.
    
    I just came back from the white mountains where the black bear problem
    is getting worse.  The rangers told me they cannot relocate bears
    because they always come back and even at a distance of 400 miles. 
    They said that if they make it home they are so worn down they turn
    nasty or sick and have to be dispatched.  So relocation is not always
    the humane approach either.
    
     I believe in some cases you do what you have to and agree with others
    that if you have a problem with that say it politely and without the
    need to sound high handed.
    
    Brian

    You people have valid points, I agree, such as the black bear issue and
    the issue regarding the danger in relocating the snapper.
    
    Rights increase with age.  Well, no, perhaps respect would have been
    a better choice of words.
    
    I am trying to say that maybe people should bend more often toward
    wildlife needs a bit more often than has been the case in the past.
    Look at what is happening to this planet if you need convincing.
    
    Yup, the guy did what he thought was best given his set of
    circumstances and the information he had.  My opinion is that there
    were options available which were not taken which would have served
    both his and the turtles needs.  Such as, hiring (yeah maybe
    PAYING) a professional to get the turtle out of there and relocating
    it.
    
    Before I set off the cries of what about hunters rights and all let
    me assure you I like my recreation too... boating, 4 wheeling, etc,
    and my activities are harly no impact either.
    
    I suggest that we all think carefully before killing 'needlessly'
    (and each of us has to define needlessly), or cutting down trees
    or doing the things which ultimately detract from quality of life
    on the Earth.
     
    Ok, off my soapbox.   Smile.
    
    Jeff
    
    

    Both sides have valid issues.  I've seen a snapper bite off a 1"
    tree branch, and personally would rather not have to co-exist with 
    one under my dock.  And unless you can find a truly uninhabited body
    of water (are any left?), I'm not sure what relocation will prove.
    How would you like it if the guy across town relocated a snapper
    to *your* pond?  And the risk to yourself while moving a snapper
    is kind of like swerving to miss a squirrel - if you hit a tree 
    in the process was it worth it?  I doubt the risk of being bitten 
    while moving it is worth saving the snapper's life for.
    
    One thing I'm curious about, is what's the difference between a
    fish and a turtle?  Does one have more rights than another? Most
    of us will take the life of a fish without a second thought if it
    serves our purpose.  A dinner of fish on your table, or keeping
    your kids from being bitten by a snapper, both have a valid purpose.
    Personally, I'd feel less guilt about eliminating the risk of loss
    of my kids fingers or toes to a snapper bite than I do when I kill 
    a fish.
    
    Rick

    	I would feel sorry if "I" had to dispatch the turtle. I'd feel
    sorrier if I didn't and had one of my kids feet taken off while sitting
    on the dock with their feet it the water.
    
    	I suppose an attempt at moving it may be an option, but I can't
    think of to many bodies of water where you wouldn't just be moving 
    the problem so that someone else has to worry about it. It also sounds
    like a dangerous proposition.
    
    	Ray

    Hi All
    
    	Who would have imagined a snapping turtle note to get as deep
    	as this?  Both sides are stating their cases well. Aside from
    	one or two hostile replies,not counting mine that Mr. Moderator
    	graciuosly deleted along with another one when I lost my cool
    	for a minute(thank you), they have been fairly civil.
    		I can see both sides of the coin, and IMHO, I wouldn't
    	have tried to relocate it for already talked about reasons. I
    	would have done the same thing that was done. There is only so much
        one can do with an unwanted snapper of these great proportions.
    	I know that if my son wanted to go swimming, I wouldn't want him
        swimming with this thing as a lifeguard. (by the way,did you eat
        him?)
    
    					Butch

    Does a snapper or fish have more rights?  Good question Rick.  The
    fact is that the 'system' (ecosystem) is designed so that the
    biggest smartest gets to eat the smaller guy.  Its hard to get
    around that... should we kill beef to eat it etc?  I don't know.
    
    Turtles:  You did what you thought was best... had valid concerns
    and I can respect your decision... but I do wonder about the issues
    I raised.
    
    Jeff

The channel is too deep for me to wade across, so I work my along its 
margin and stop where the mud becomes too deep to pass through. Here I 
survey the marsh. Out of the mixed panorama of sky and distant hills, 
the wind-rippled water farther out, the dead trees and grassy islands 
with their reflections in the still water before me, a single image 
begins to form in my mind, unconsciously at first. At the edge of a 
pile of tangled branches a smooth form reaches from the water in a low 
arc. It is the shell of a snapping turtle. Immediately, as this 
recognition comes to me, I see the dark triangular head protruding 
from the water, more than a foot in front of the shell. The turtle is 
enormous. This vision seems to have suddenly appeared before me,  but 
both his head an shell are dry -- the turtle has been watching me for 
some time. A chill of excitement comes over me as I look at the turtle 
and consider catching him. Over my years in the swamps, I have caught 
many large snappers, but I know that only one was equal to the turtle 
before me now, and that one weighed forty-six pounds.


The turtle and I look at each other. I would have to cross several 
yards of deep, soft mud to reach him. This is more his realm than 
mine. It might be better for me to stay in my role of observer. Were I 
to get hold of that creature, I would have a struggle on my hands just 
trying to drag him back to more solid footing where I could take a 
good look at him. It would be extremely difficult to get him on shore, 
and I have no camera with me, nor anyone to show him to. But I am 
drawn to feel the strength of this great turtle, to haul him at least 
partway out of the water and appreciate the size and primeval beauty 
of this lord of the waterways. I would not hesitate were the turtle 
not quite so large, the footing so uncertain. The Great Marsh seems 
more wild and alone than ever now, more timeless and otherworldly, 
with this ancient snapping turtle as its focus. With that same 
reptilian stare now regarding me, he could have been a turtle of long 
ago watching the movements of a long-vanished dinosaur in a swamp that 
is now a mountain range.

Apprehension mingles with excitement as I move a slow half step to the 
edge of the last grass hummocks and look for footing in the open water 
I will have to cross to reach the turtle. There before me, lying on 
the bottom in less than a foot of water, is a second tremendous 
snapping turtle. In the clear water, his enormous shell is a deep-blue 
slate-gray, and his partially withdrawn head appears the same. I have 
never seen such color in a snapping turtle. It may be a quality of 
great age or due to this turtle's recent emergence from hibernation. 
All of the green-black mossy growth common on the shells of these 
highly aquatic turtles has died off over the winter, and his carapace 
has not taken on the dark muddy tones I am so familiar with. The 
turtle glows like malachite in the water. I check across the pool. The 
first turtle has not moved. I look down at the one below me, his head 
and legs in a stationary crouch, his thick, spiked tail extending 
straight out from the jagged rear edge of his carapace. I press my 
walking stick into the mud; I will need both hands.

I step off the underwater ledge into the deeper water behind the 
turtle, who has not yet made a move. He will go into action the 
instant I touch him. Extending both my hands slowly beneath the 
surface, I reach to encircle the turtle's thick tail, thankful that 
the water is clear and I can see exactly where his head and tail lie. 
The placement of a snapping turtle's eyes is such that I can see into 
them from my position directly over him. Without taking my eyes from 
his, I put my hands around the base of his tail -- I can barely reach 
around it.

The instant I take my grip, the turtle surges forward, head lunging, 
all four legs thrusting. THe placid surface becomes a churning sea of 
mud and water, my sweatshirt is thoroughly splattered. Even in his 
tail I can feel the power of this animal. I grasp hard against the 
armorlike scales and sharp spikes of his tail, trying to keep my 
knuckles from the triangular marginal plates at the rear edge of his 
carapace, which are like the teeth of a crosscut saw. As he struggles 
forward, the turtle pulls his tail against my hold, first to one side, 
then to the other. I set my feet in the mud and pull him toward me. I 
feel behind me with one foot, set it, then follow with my other foot, 
struggling backward to the shallows of the grass hummocks, where I 
hope to beach this beautiful creature. The snapper does not turn and 
strike; in this depth, with open water before him, all his actions are 
set upon escape.

There is no lifting this thrashing turtle from the water; I can barely 
drag him backward, against his great strength and resolute will, to 
some landing place. I step back and get one foot up on the marshy bank 
behind, a laborious step from the deep mud onto the less than solid 
ground that is my only retreat. I move my other foot up and struggle 
backward into the grass clumps. As I work the turtle up into the 
shallows, he gains a hold on their turfy margin and becomes twice as 
strong, pulling me forward and down on one knee. Getting back on my 
feet, I wrestle him further into the hummocks. I cannot lift him, or 
straighten up myself, but merely hold him in place at the edge of the 
sedge growth. I keep my grip but stop pulling. The snapper seizes the 
rim of the submarine turf with his powerful forefeet, sinking two-inch 
claws in to the mass of mud and roots, and sets his equally strong, 
sharp-clawed hindfeet. He has taken his hold. After the thrashing, 
swirling struggle, we are both still. The roiled water settles into a 
mirror. In the silence I can hear the turtle breathing.

It could be argued whether or not I have "caught" a turtle. We share 
the exhaustion. The snapper's long, powerful neck is withdrawn, his 
massive head rests at eye level in the water; he looks straight ahead, 
across the broad expanse of the marsh. With the remarkably slow motion 
that these creatures are capable of, he moves his head forward. His 
neck appears at the fore edge of his broad carapace. Moving almost 
like a separate creature, his head glides in a measured turn on his 
arching neck, along the water surface back to face me. I look into 
those impressive eyes: a white fleck of daylight shows in the 
gold-ringed, jet-black pupil from which five black slashes radiate on 
a ground of amber and blue scattered with black dots. There is a 
distance in them, a coldness; they are the eyes filled with stars. I 
look into them and look back into an unfathomable time and point of 
consciousness. It may be in such eyes that the universe first 
discovered a way to look back upon itself.

[2+ pages of natural history follow before the account of this 
snapping-turtle encounter resumes.]

The living bit of prehistoric life I now hold in my hands shifts his 
position slightly. We look at each other awhile. Then, in measured 
slow motion, he slides his head to the front edge of his carapace and, 
neck withdrawn, once again looks straight ahead out over the water. I 
decide to pull him toward me, higher up onto the grassy shallows. The 
moment my hands tighten on the massive base of his tail, he thrusts 
all four legs against the turf and lashes straight out with a 
lightning strike of head an searing jaws -- the SMACK! can be heard 
across the marsh. Immediately following this instinctive, unfocused 
strike, the turtle gains leverage with his thick-muscled forelegs and 
strains to turn and face his tormentor. A snapping turtle cornered on 
land, or in shallow water with no escape route, will keep turning in a 
tight circle to face any challenger, with neck and legs set for a 
strike and jaws slightly apart. These creatures will not back down.

I work against his counter-clockwise turning, forcing his tail and 
rear edge of his shell in the opposite direction. It takes great 
effort to countermand this animal's determined advance. The snapper 
unleashes an awesome strike back along the edge of his shell: a 
frighteningly impressive demonstration of his power and reach. My 
hands are safe from those jaws, at the base of his tail and along the 
rear margin of his shell, but my knuckles are scraped and cut from the 
jagged plates at the back edge of his carapace. Snappers must be 
handled by the base of the tail or the very edge of the carapace, for 
they can extend their heads and necks far back along the sides, or 
even top, of their shells. Also, large snappers can be injured if 
carried by the tail and must be supported or managed by the back end 
of the shell. If I were to lift him, I would not be able to hold this 
massive turtle far enough away from my body to keep my legs from his 
slashing jaws. He is greatly agitated now, and like an arm-locked 
wrestler struggles to come at me, to break my hold. My arms grow 
tired, and I have inconvenienced this great beast enough. I had wanted 
to have a good look at him, to feel his strength. All of the energy 
and power in the thrusting force of his neck and driving strength of 
his legs are transmitted to me through my two hands gripping the base 
of his tail. The life that moves in the weight of this turtle makes 
him seem even larger than he is -- and he must weigh close to fifty 
pounds. I plan a backward move from my position of one foot planted, 
one knee braced in the water, and let go.

The turtle rotates halfway around to face me, then stops. Aware of his 
release, he settles slowly down on his legs, plastron to the bottom. 
He is so big that nearly all of him is visible above the ankle-deep 
water. I stand motionless after rising stiffly from my long crouch in 
the chill water and withdrawing a step. The time and place will not 
allow a drawing, and I regret I have no camera with me. The turtle 
regards me with one eye, the other looks to the open water beyond the 
marshy ledge. He waits. I continue to stand completely still.

I always wonder at such moments what turtle intelligence is at work, 
what blend of consciousness and instinct inherited from a time long 
past moves through the animal's ancient mind. What does he read in the 
scene and situation before him? He reads the hours and the event, the 
water and the light, in a manner as mysterious as a migratory bird's 
reading of the star formations in the night's black sky.

The turtle slowly pushes out from the protective shield of his 
carapace with his left foreleg, almost imperceptibly setting it 
against a firm tussock. The he makes his  move. With a powerful thrust 
of that left foreleg and a great pull from the right foreleg he turns 
his great mass toward the open marsh and propels himself off the 
ledge, into the water. With alternate strokes of foreleg and hindleg, 
he churns across the muddy bottom. A wide swath of thousands of tiny 
bubbles rises to the surface along the submarine route of the 
disappearing turtle as he heads for the safety of the deeper channel.

Snapping turtles are rightly known as formidable creatures. Although 
accounts of their biting, as of their size, are often exaggerated out 
of pure snapping-turtle aura, even a five- or ten-pound individual 
makes quite an impression and seems to be twice as big as he really 
is. It is startling to feel the strength of a snapping turtle with a 
carapace of only four or five inches as he tries to free himself from 
a restraining hand -- the entire turtle feels like muscle and energy, 
pure force in living form. Though many people claim to have seen 
snappers as big as kitchen tables, only rare individual turtles reach 
or slightly exceed a straight-line carapace length of a foot and a 
half and a weight of seventy to eighty pounds. Once the tremendous 
mass of the head and the powerful length of the neck, tail, and legs 
are added in, the creature is great enough. A forty-six-pound turtle I 
once managed to bring home for a photography session reached from one 
end of the bathtub to the other, from nostril to tail tip, and in the 
end managed to climb out of the tub.

The vile temperament associated with these reptiles largely results 
from provocation by human beings, the latter making the situation 
confrontational. Left with an unimpeded view of the horizon, 
especially if water is within reach, the turtle will rise on his feet, 
shell high above the earth, tail sloping down and dragging behind, and 
move off with a deliberate, stalking stride that inspires images of 
dinosaurs. Cornered, headed off from the water, approached or 
restrained, the turtle will lash out with legendary speed and terrific 
force, his head neck becoming lethal weapons. These turtles will not 
attack, but neither will they back down. Unlike most turtles, snappers 
do not rely on enclosure in a shell and passive defense. Their 
plastrons have been reduced to a narrow cross of bone that covers less 
than a sumo wrestler's thong does, offering little protection but 
allowing greater freedom of action. The carapace is used more as a 
shield, from beneath which the head is thrown like a retrievable 
lance, than as the bony fortress into which most species retreat. 
(Another turtle without the typical chelonian armor is the softshell, 
and it, too, features a long neck, cutting jaws, raking claws, and 
sudden movement.)

Accounts in the literature nearly all bear out my own experiences with 
snapping turtles: they do not bite when in the water, even if 
interfered with; but one would be reluctant to prove this comforting 
generalization wrong. Certainly if any opening is left to them, these 
wild and impressive animals will avail themselves of it and move along 
their own way.

    So the cute little song about Turtle Creek which leads one to believe
    that skinny dipping in snapper waters is risky really isn't that 
    risky?
    
    Jeff

    In my experience, nothing risky about it in the least.

At the Woodstock music festival in `69 I remember a pond that a
lot of people were skinny dipping in.

In the past year or so I read an article in the Globe about a 
turle hunter, his business supplys the meat to restaurants.
He claimed to have pulled something like 50 snappers out of 
that same pond soon after the festival.

He mentioned that if they had seen him pulling those snappers out before
hand that nobody would have ever gone in.

Can you see it... one turtle sayin to another: wow! look at the size
of that body on that one eyed turtle!

        Steve

      Re: "Why is it O.K. to kill a fish and not a turtle??" 
    
      One BIG reason is that a fish will lay literally THOUSANDS of eggs
    every year, while a turtle's eggs will number in the low dozens...and
    the baby offspring of both creatures are very vulnerable and
    susceptable to being taken by predators. Turtles don't have nearly the
    odds in their favor that fish do of reaching maturity.
    
    JM

>Turtles don't have nearly the
>    odds in their favor that fish do of reaching maturity.

 I don't agree. A much higher percentage of turtles make it to adulthood
than fish. 

    	While fishing in a canoe at Greenwood pond with his father, a friend of 
    mine came across a seagull that was alive but didn't fly off when they
    approached. He lifted the seagull out of the water to see if it was
    injured and its entrails were literally hanging out. He put it back it
    the water and later in the day, noticed that a large snapper was making
    a meal of the gull.
    
    	In subsequent trips to the pond after that incident, I observed
    that most of the seagulls that used to float around in the water were
    standing on a floating dock.
    
    	From what I've heard and seen, it would appear that a snapper
    mistook a seagull for a meal. If this was the case, it would seem
    equally likely that a snapper could mistake a foot or two, dangling 
    off the end of a dock, as a meal.
    
    	RAYJ
    
    re:last few
    
    	Good story John.

    Uh, the snapper didn't *mistake* the gull for a meal. The gull *was* a
    snapper meal. Ducks, geese, fish, mostly corpses, are all snapper food.
    

    Don't hear or see snapper meals like this much John.  I spend a fair
    amount of time on the water and I have never seen a bird attacked
    by a snapper.  I am not saying your wrong, just that I have never
    seen it happen.  Thats news to me, thanks for the info.  Uh, seagulls
    and other birds are meals for snappers?  Hmmmm... dangling human
    appendages seem a likely target to me.
    
    Jeff

 Like largemouth bass, snappers are hardly averse to taking something into their
mouths just for the hell of it. Always on the lookout for new food sources...

    Sounds like the Turtle Creek skinny dipping scene might be a bit risky,
    especially for guys.  Anyone for a skinny dip in Turtle Creek?
    
    Jeff

      Re .58
    
      Got any documentation to back that up???
    
      Also...percentage doesn't really hack it. 10% of 30 eggs(turtle)
    would be 3 turtles. 1% of 50,000 eggs(fish) would be 500!!
    
      I must have seen 50 or 60 nature shows on turtles, both fresh and
    saltwater, and every one of them basically state the odd are very small
    of more than a single turtle out of a batch of eggs reaching maturity.
    Most salt water trutles don't even reach the ocean because of gulls and
    other predators taking them. Fresh water turtle hatchlings are alos
    prone to being eaten by Bass, Pike and other fish, not to mention
    ducks, geese and other predators, including other turtles...
    
    JM

    re:- Agree!
    
    Dave'
    

    	I have to side with .58 on this.  Right out of the egg a turtle is
    too big for 90% of the predators that feed on newly hatched fish to
    even eat.  The fish have to put up with being preyed upon by everything
    from small waterbugs up to their own father!  I've seen plenty of
    schools of small fingerling bass, still black, cruising the shallows
    with Dad and it's real rare to see more than ~30-50 fish.  I've also
    sat on the streamside behind my parents house as a kid and picked up
    52 baby snapping turtles all hatched from one nest.  By the way, we dug
    up the nest the next day and found zero unhatched eggs.
    	Documentation to back it up?  Nope.  But I'll bet that you can find
    a whole lot more people who can say they've seen BIG full grown
    snapping turtles than you can people who say they've seen full grown bass.
    And we're LOOKING for the bass where the turtles we just happen upon.
    
    						B.C. 

    Unless I miss my bet the snappers aren't hunted to the extent that
    bass are fished for, therefore the fish tend to be fished out before
    they reach full size.  The snappers not being hunted as hard tend to
    have more of a chance to reach maturity assuming they make if past that
    first crucial hatchling stage.  This explanation would account for
    seeing more full size turtles than full size fish.
    
    Jeff

      Re .66
    
      O.K.....lets go along with that theory then...and carry it out to the
    extreme... In any given lake then, there SHOULD be--if this logic is
    pursued--about 10,000 turtles and 6 Bass... However, reality sez that
    this ain't so.. 
      Also...what's "full size"?? I've personally caught 6 Bass in a single
    lake that were over 5 pounds, yet I've never once seen any turtles that
    were over 8 inches long in that same lake....and I'm REAL sure I didn't
    catch ALL of the 5lb+ bass in that lake!!
    
       Sure, I believe that all of the turtle's eggs hatched, but I've also
    seen the swarms of smolts when a Bass's eggs hatch...thousands of them.
    Yeah, LOTS of them get eaten, die of natural causes etc...and a ton of
    turtles also are eaten--some by those same Bass, others by ducks, etc.
    
      If so many more turtles--snappers being the RARE breed--survive to
    adulthood(whatever that is??), then WHERE pray tell, are those
    thousands of turtles hiding???
    
      John Mc

    They are down in the mud.  How well can you SEE the bottom anyway?  
    Turtles are well camoflaged when down on the bottom too.
    
    Jeff

    RE: .68
    
    	Theory?  I don't remember stating theories.  For someone who is
    pushing on people for "data" your 1 lake survey is pretty weak.
    
    	How about if we just look at it from a mother nature standpoint...
    
    As a "general observation" (To save you the trouble of looking up a few
    dozen species just to disprove my "theory") mother nature has given the
    different species several methods to guarantee the survival of the
    species.  One of these ways is to give animals with a lower survival
    rate the ability to lay more eggs (or have more babies) than animals
    with a higher survival rate.
    	This tells me that the animal that lays several dozen eggs has a
    higher survival rate than the animal that lays tens of thousands of
    eggs.
    	Where are they?  In the right lakes you'll se plenty of them.
    	What's adult?  In a snapper if he's got a 12" shell I'll damn sure
    call him an adult.  Sure, he can get bigger, but how much bigger.  In a
    bass I hate to tell you this, but even in this state a 5lb. bass is
    only about 1/2 grown (or 1/3 if you want to look at the state record).
    
    					B.C.

     Re .70
    
      You didn't have to STATE that you were professing a "theory", yo did
    so by default. Theory, according to Webster, is: (a)An explanation that
    has not yet been proven true. (b) a guess or conjecture.
    
      I'm really sorry that you take offense because I'm not willing to
    believe something without a shred of proof. I've been hunting & fishing
    for over 40 years, much of it in areas that are a lot better for
    outdoorsmen than New England is, and I've never seen any evidence that
    turtles are very prolific or that there is any abundance of them. I've
    seen MANY---not ONE---lakes that are the homes of Snapping Turtles, and
    its very rare to find more than a few. Not very many reach any
    significant size--such as the ones described by the previous 3 or 4
    notes in this conference have. One big reason for this is the FACT that
    Snappers are extremely efficient predators and that aren't adverse to
    preying on smaller versions of themselves.
    
      As for "adulthood" in fish goes: according to the folks who are
    supposed to KNOW, such as Mass Dept of Fish & Wildlife, B.A.S.S, and
    numerous books and magazine articles, the average age of a 5 pound
    Largemouth in Mass. is OVER 8 years. Since the life expectancy of the
    Largemouth is somewhere around 12-14 years, I'd be more than willing to
    believe that the average 5 pounder is in it's late middle age...not
    some kid or teen-ager. The Bass that hold the current state record was
    and is considered to be a fluke, since 15 pound Bass are not very
    common even with the Florida strain. California lakes around San Diego
    have probably got more 10+ pounders than anywhere in the U.S., and even
    in those lakes a fish that big isn't all that common. These big bass
    are typically females too, which get much bigger than the males do...
    So..."adult" is a relative term at best...whether it's turtles or fish.
    
    JM

      Since were into imprompto surveys here, does anyone out there have any
    first hand knowledge of snappers attacking anyone in the water?  Before
    you answer, lets limit the responses to first hand experiences. I still
    find it hard to believe that a turtle will attack. I lived for 12 years
    on a lake loaded with snappers and _never_ heard of anyone getting bit
    in the water.  Out of the water and cornered is a different story.
    I still find it hard that anyone who spends time on the water fishing
    could get paranoid enough to kill a turtle.  What do you guys do to
    sharks?
    
    Jeff  

      Re .72
    
      Jeff,
      In all my years I've never heard of one doing so. What I've seen
    regarding snappers agrees totally with the author of the story related
    earlier in this conference...Snappers are pretty shy creatures, and if
    given the opportunity to do so, will retreat. However, if cornered or
    attacked, they will NOT back down.. I'd expect without absolute proof
    that this is what most people will agree with..
    
      There seems to be a lot of 'myth' around Snappers, somewhat like
    those around Wolves and the current influx of rabies in New England. It
    seems that hysteria isn't too hard to get going in people...especially
    when confronted with something that is somewhat formidible..
      John Mc

    
    
     I once had the priv of viewing two of these monsters battle each
    other. It was a sight to behold. We just pulled the boat up within a
    few feet and watched 2 snappers, about 2 - 2.5 ft in diameter battle
    each other in a death grip. Our guess was that one of them wasn't
    coming out of it alive. That's about the closest I've ever seen one of
    those guys. Other than that encounter, and seeing smaller guys jump
    into the water and swim away whenever I get within 30 ft, I've never
    seen these guys. I'd have to say that they are definitely on the shy
    side.
    
     Bob

    Bob ---
    
    Your describing the "battle" between two snappers brought a smile to my
    face as it reminded me of one of the most comical things I have ever
    watched on a river. It was a territorial battle between two massive
    snappers at the apex of a 180-degree bend in the river, and I was about
    two feet from them. They were going at each other in the most
    hilariously clumsy way, and neither was succeeding at doing any damage
    to the other. It was amazing to see these creatures, who are "known"
    for lightning fast and accurate strikes struggling so unsuccessfully to
    damage an opponent with which it was shoulder-to-shoulder. They were
    completely oblivious of me. 
    
    This was clearly a territorial battle rather than a "courtship," which
    is said to look very much like a fight to the death, because it was
    several months past the snappers' breeding season.
    
    When I came back downstream about 20 minutes later, there was no sign
    of either snapper.
    
    John H-C

      Gee John, you got that close and they didn't attack you!!!!!!! 
    Wow you must be some kind crazy man.   Mayby we should call you
    Turtle Dundie.
        8*)
    
    Jeff (who thinks paranoid people ought to let harmless turtles live)

    Oh, you mean I never mentioned the time I was skimming along the top of
    the vegetation emerging from a wall and a snapper stuck its head out to
    see what was causing the light to shift?
    
    I looked at it. It looked at me. And FLASH! it was back in the
    vegetation leaving a trail of waving weeds as it scurried away along
    the bottom/side of the wall. If I hadn't been wearing a full-face mask, 
    my regulator would have fallen out from my laughing.

    Harmless snappers.  Sounds to me as if one doesn't corner one or 
    attack one people don't have much to worry about from snappers.
    
    In that context, yes, I think we should leave them alone.
    
    Jeff

	My wife told me that she noticed a turtle trying to cross a
	busy street near home.  She felt sorry for this creature so
	she stopped her car - got out - and gently picked up the turtle
	when Hisssss!!! it stretched it's neck out and almost bit her finger.
	She managed to get it across the road and all was fine.

	She told me about it so I asked her what the turtle looked like.
	I told her it was a snapper and most people don't pick them up by hand.
	She had never seen one up  close and "personal"
	She was lucky she didn't loose a finger.
	When they take hold it's a death grip.

	Still I believe the turtle was more afraid then trying to strike
	due to anger or being vicious.

	You don't hurt them they won't hurt you.
	-< Tuna Tail >-

    Whew!  She was lucky. Or maybe the critter 'sensed' she was trying
    to help it.  Well, like I said, if you don't attack the turtle
    (in the TURTLES opinion) that is it won't hurt you.
    
    Jeff
    

    
    Where's COONASS when you need him?  
    
    Joe Tomas probably has his #.....COONASS CAN NO DE WHEY TO COOK DE
    SNAPPIN.
    
    

 Go ahead, get into the gory details. Someone will want to know. :-)

    Dis here be Coonass...
    
    First, chew don got chewsef de rong kin ob turtle!! Its de sofshell
    turtle dat chew eat. Jes put him bak an feed de gars wit him.
    
    Nex time chew an chore son go out in de bateau an wade aroun till chew
    feel sumpin kinda roun on de bottom. Den jes reach don an grab it an
    swing in into de bateau. Dere shell is kinda leathery an dey don nap at
    chew. Dey got a long nek too.
    
    Tak it bak an tie a rope to de head an run it op a tree, den start op
    in de right side an cut all aroun de shell. Clean out de insides an
    bones. Cut de res into lil cubes. Cook in in a roux an serv a glass ob
    sherry on de side...OOOOOOHHHHHHH BOY!!!! dats GOOOOD stuff. Jes lak
    som ob dem hiclass rasrunts on Noveau Orleans!!
    
    Oh yeah, JeanC, dere ar a lots ob dirty gar and gators don chere dat we
    need chew to com don and clean op for us....
    
    Coonass

    Your misunderstanding of the snapping turtle's role in aquatic habitats
    is disgusting.
    
    John H-C

 Let's not start this again. Keep it cool, and exchange ideas, not personal
insults. You're on the borderline John H-C.

    	At the risk of disgusting a few people...  
    
    	The F+G laws for Mass. do indeed list Snapping Turtles...
    
    	They are listed in the hunting section as no closed season, no
    	size limit, no bag limit, and no license required.
    
    	I'm quite sure this doesn't mean a thing to any of the self
   	appointed experts around here who know more about the needs
    	of our water than the F+G people who have spent their lives
    	studying and working in the business.
    
    						B.C.

    
    
     Well said B.C.
    
    

    
    While I have no problem with the taking of snapping turtles for
    consumption like in this case. I do have a problem with the means
    of dispatching this particular turtle. I see no need for the turtle
    to have hung by it's tail upside down over night. The turtle should
    have been dispatched as quiclky as possible by severing it's head with 
    and axe, not a gaff thru the mouth then cutting the neck with a knife.
    I don't disagree with what you did just the way you did it.
    
    Walt 

    I don't have a problem with people hunting snapping turtles. I do
    believe they should abide by the rule, "Clean what you kill, and eat
    what you clean." That aside, I was apalled at the method used to
    dispatch the turtle, which struck me as cruel in the extreme.
    
    The noter's assumption that he was somehow benefitting the fish
    population by catching and killing the snapper is what really bothered
    me. Snapping turtles are scavengers. Their diet is mostly algae. Yes,
    that's right. Algae. That is why you often find snappers in swamps and
    marshes with no fish in them.
    
    There are photographs of snappers taking ducks, it is true. These
    pictures are taken in clear water where there is almost nothing for the
    snapper to feed on. That's why the water's clear enough for there to be
    a photograph. 
    
    In any mesotrophic or eutrophic pond, there is enough vegetation and
    detritus for a snapper to feed and grow on without its having to hunt
    for moving prey.
    
    If you've ever seen a healthy fish start at the slightest movement, you
    know that very few healthy fishes would fall prey to even the fastest
    snapper. Sick ones are another matter.
    
    Snappers perform the same scavenger role as the crayfish on a larger
    scale. They help recycle pond nutrients.
    
    They are not a danger to anybody who doesn't trap and goad them. I
    imagine most of the people who frequent this file are the same way.
    
    John H-C
    
    

        I haven't said to much in the fishing files, but wanted to add my
    2 cents.
    
        I've owned a house on Long Pond, in Pelham, NH for the last 4
    years, and my family has owned property on the same pond for the last
    40 years. I've swam in the pond (should be a lake) at night, fished
    both at night and during the day from both a boat and dock with my feet
    hanging into the water, nothing ever got bitten.  I've only seem one
    snapping turtle, in all the years on the lake.  The one I did see was
    making a beline for the nearest lillypads.  
    
        Last year my 15 year old son caught a cotton mouth snake in the
    rock wall and brook next to out house.  He didn't know what he caught
    until he showed me.  My first thought was to KILL IT!   Then I thought
    about it and said "Why", it has every right to be here, as much as I
    do, if not more.  He belongs in the water, not me.  We put him in a
    LARGE plastic barrell and transported him to the swampy end of the lake
    and let him go, never to be seem again.
    
        I'm not a loud mouth liberal (sp) I hunt & fish, but human nature
    is if you/we don't understand it, KILL IT.  There are dozens of mammels
    and insects we could into this group
    
        Just my 2 cents.
    
    
    

    
    
    Re last..
    
    I could'nt agree more,there was a turtle washed up on the shore at
    South Queensferry and the general concenses was to "kill it" but
    my friend Tom, took it to his home and nursed it back to peak
    fitness,and then returned it to the sea at Grangemouth Docks,where
    it now live's and feed,s of the rubbish thrown from passing ships..