Conference wahoo::fishing-v2

Steve,

Penn makes excellent reels.  One model that is specifically designed for 
wire is the Penn Model 49L.  I inherited my father-in-law's 49L after he 
passed on, but I've never used it.  He used it on a deep sea pole which I 
eventually plan load up with 30# mono.  

I see the 49L as overkill for freshwater anything, including trout, as it is 
a large reel.  When I do go for trout, I use a Little John downrigger to get 
down deep.  That allows me to use light tackle which is a lot more exciting 
than using wire and heavy rod/reel combos.

If you get up to TTB in Nashua, let me know and I'll bring it in for you to 
look at.

Regards,

Joe

    	re:-1
    
    	I don't think it would be too big for lake "O" (i.e. 30+ lb.
    salmon.)
    
    	RAYJ

    
    
     While I lived in NH I used PENN 9 M levelwinds for my lead core
    trolling, along with 7 ft light action poles, they worked great and
    with the size of salmon in NH about anything would work, heck I also 
    used a 4 ft super ultrlight & 4 lb test there for their salmon.
    
      Now here in NY you are talking a whole different ballgame!! big
    water, big baitfish, ======BIG FISH !!!! so you adjust your tackle to
    meet your needs, I do still use the 9M set ups for spring fishing,
    there is just something about getting a 9+ lb brown or rocket on a
    light outfit that makes a guys heart flutter.
    
                                       Lee
    

    Thanks for the info. The reason I thought a lead core might be more fun
    is cause a down-rigger seems to be more involved to set-up,,,cost more,
    some assembly required,,,set-up time to use it. Also my father-in-law
    uses one and always catches more trout (3 colors) than myself (3
    splitshot).
    ?????? What's a good Down-Rigger at a good price????
    
                                         -Steve

      
    
    
         RE: last 
    
         I think the best info you will find is gonna be in the old fishing
    file, but if the doctah wants a new downrigger note in here I will let
    him post it.
    
          I for one would think of no other rigger than BIG JON, I have 4
    and I have never had a problem with them, and I have seen them punished
    beyond belief and they still work! they are all metal,
    (aluminum/stainless) as apposed to plastic cannons.
    
       Prices will vary depending where you are and what the demand of them
    is., I will say that I dont think I would of ever gotten the deal on my 
    electrics out here in NY like I did in NH, because the demand for elec
    riggers in NH isnt high.
      another point is where are you going? small ponds,lakes manuals would
    do fine for you, lake Ontario now thats a different story would you
    want to crank a 10 lb ball up from 150 ft every time you got a fish or 
    just a false release? believe me its mighty nice to flip a switch and
    wait 1 minute and rerig lines and hit the switch again to lower the
    ball!!
    
    
                                       Lee
    

     Ah hell, just buy a couple of Luhr Jensen "Dipsy Divers." You can get
    'em at Zyla's for under $10. They're kinda "Low Tech, but for what
    you're using 'em for, they should be fine. There is more info on 'em
    elsewhere in this file.
    
    --The Bandit

    
    
       Bandit,
    
      not to rag on you but, the dipsy divers are not a good choice, there
    is so many things that change the depths these buggers run at, ie;
    speed, current,line diameter,and settings, plus you have to keep very
    close watch on how much line you put out. and also you have to use some
    heavier equip. if I put a dipsy on my light action poles and had a good
    size fish hit I may heaar the dreaded sound of graphite shatering.
    
      Although during the summer/fall I run 2 dipsey's most of the time,
    but then again I am out over 100 foot of water, We did an experiment
    this fall, went out to 200 foot, set 1 dipsy on #2 setting and ran it
    out 425 feet , the other dipsy set out on setting # 2 and 225 foot of
    line. we then headed for shore. at 68 +- foot of water the dipsy out
    400 foot hit bottom, at 63 foot the other hit bottom.
       So your depths are really limited to +- 65 foot, I know that in NH
    you dont often go below 30 - 40 foot , but heck with small fish you
    wont have any fight except for the dipsy, and have you ever tried to
    get a dipsy in the boat in a hurry? its not easy.
    
      there are alot of inexpensive means of trolling, dipsy's, jet planers 
    monkey balls, drop sinkers, and probably a hand full of other means but 
    to each their own.
    
                                        Lee
    

Steve,
	Getting back to your original questions about lead line and Penn... 
Penn is an excellent reel manufacturer, I have a pile of them for salt water 
fishing, but I don't use them for lead line. I use a Pfleuger reel that looks 
like an overgrown single action fly reel. It has a large hub which may be 
better for the line. I really don't know why, but its kind of the traditional 
lead line setup, at least here in Maine.
	I use a low bucks, light weight salt water rod. No need to get fancy 
because all you need is something strong enough to do the job. The extra 
sensitivity found in expensive rods is wasted in this type of fishing. The
terminal gear and weight of the line absorb a lot of the fight. 
	The good news is this is not an expensive rig. Its been a few decades
since I bought mine but I imagine the whole thing shouldn't set you back more 
than $50.

Paul

    
    After reading all the answers from y'all,,,,I'm going to sell my boat
    and take up scuba-diving,,,,no,,just kidding.
    Because I loose so much line on my mono reels,,,I may stay away from
    leadcore and get a DownRigger first. " I have only begun to buy" so
    we will go for the best..............................................
    
                                      -\steve

    
    
    
    I use a penn 330 gti levelwind with 50 yds. of dacron backing and 100
    yds. of 18 lb. lead core. I then attach about 10 feet of 4,6 or 8 lb. mono
    as a leader between the lead and lure.  
    
    I recommend the mono leader length be adjusted to match the distance
    between the tip of your rod and your hook keeper . If you do not have a
    hook keeper use your reel as a substitute .
    
    The rod I use is a 30 lb. medium action . Using this weight rod when 
    trolling for state of N.H. size landlocked salmon offers what I
    consider  satisfactory rod/line sensitivity. When playing in a 2 lb.
    salmon/trout/bass or larger , even a light line purist will be wetting
    their pants. 
    
    A 30 lb. rod with 18 lb. lead on it is probably as light as you would
    want to go, going with any lighter a rod would just plain overstress
    the rod and ruin the sensitivity balance between rod and line weight.
    Each to thier own though.
    
    The Penn 330 GTI is a beaut. I love it, on the other hand its going to
    set you back 55 or so big ones. I also have a Penn 309m level wind that
    I used to use for lead before I "just had to have" that 330 gti dt's.
    
    The difference between the 330 gti and the 309m is in the smoothness of
    operation and drag setting. To me its a day and night comparison. The
    330 gti is just plain sweet when it comes to adjusting drag up and
    down, setting the drag for bite alarm, reel in smoothness, and auto
    line release.
    
    I did try a season of 36 lb. lead on the 330 gti and found the
    combination to work fine, on the otherhand I do not believe i'll ever
    use 36 lb. lead for anything ever again. I just couldn't get use to
    measuring depth with it. 18 lb. I do well with , I know that 7 colors
    down with a salmon troll is putting me around 35 feet . I just never
    could feel that comfortable while using 36 lb. lead.
    
    If you are going to use lead core , I strongly recommend that any reel
    you do choose be a levelwind reel. Thar jus taint nuttin worse than
    reelin in a 4-5 pounder and havin yo lead line pile up in the middle of
    yo reel stoppin you from a continueing to play that baby in.
    
    I plan on outfitting the little lady this year and I am not sure
    whether or not I will rig her with another Penn 330 GTI or try the Penn
    49L. I keep thinking 49L , probably because thats the one I do not know
    yet.

<    I did try a season of 36 lb. lead on the 330 gti and found the
<    combination to work fine, on the otherhand I do not believe i'll ever
<    use 36 lb. lead for anything ever again. I just couldn't get use to
<    measuring depth with it. 18 lb. I do well with , I know that 7 colors
<    down with a salmon troll is putting me around 35 feet . I just never
<    could feel that comfortable while using 36 lb. lead.
    
Can I assume from this that I get about 5' of depth for each color (10 yds of
line)? or is the color/depth non-linear?

I've got 25# lead-core on a Penn 209M levelwind and and otherwise similiar
setup to -.1.  I've never used it ('91 XMAS present) and would like some more
info on how this system is supposed to work.

Are there any tricks (besides letting line out until it drags bottom) to knowing
how deep you're running for a given color, and how does the speed of the boat
figure into the formula?

Thanks,

Al

Al,

I've seen (in BPS?) trolling depth indicators that give you the approximate 
depth based on the angle of the line to the water surface and the amount of 
line that is out.  Basically, it's a protractor type of device, probably 
with some type of level bubble.  You hold it up to your line, read the 
angle, and then knowing how many colors of line are out, read the depth off 
a chart.  Uses simple trig math.

-HSJ-

<I've seen (in BPS?) trolling depth indicators that give you the approximate 
<depth based on the angle of the line to the water surface and the amount of 
<line that is out.  Basically, it's a protractor type of device, probably 
<with some type of level bubble.  You hold it up to your line, read the 
<<angle, and then knowing how many colors of line are out, read the depth off 
<a chart.  Uses simple trig math.

   Jeeze!!  My folks dressed me up, sent me to school, I even graduated with a 
minor in math and Hole-shot had to tell me how to solve this most basic of math
problems.  Word problems never were my strong point.  Just like in school, the
answer is obvious after someone tells you how to do it...


Thanks Joe,

Al

    re: .11
    
    you can judge the speed of your boat with a simple two point in the
    water reference .
    
    tip your rod tip into the water twice about a second apart. The
    distance between the point of reference in the water will give you the
    approximate trolling speed you have set.
    
    proper trolling speed for a specific species is an important
    consideration . Lake trout are by far the laziest of the cold
    water species. Pass to fast by a 10 lb. laker and he's jus gonna wait for
    a more feeble and less energetic meal to go by.
    
    a rule of thumb I use for cold water species is as follows;
    
    lake trout 		4 feet per second
    brown trout		4-5 feet per second
    brookies		5-7 feet per second
    rainbows		5-7 feet per second
    salmon		7-8 feet per second
    
    I must appologise for not listing the warm water species common to the
    area. I do not feel confident on making such statement since I dont
    spend  much time persuing them. I catch warm water fish by accident
    while attemting to convince some people that cold water fish can be
    caught all summer long.
    
    keep in mind that time of year such as ice-out vs end of july , water 
    temperature, time of day, oxygen content in the water , and barometric 
    pressure will affect your judgement on tweeking your troll speed for a
    specific species.
    
    In case no one ever mentioned it to ya yet I'll clarify the barometric
    pressure statement.  A barometric high is not ideal and a barometric low is 
    not as bad and a barometric medium is preferable.  Actually a falling
    barometric preassure is the most ideal, going from a high to a low as
    when a storm front is rolling through. I have caught my largest and
    most energetic fish during these falling barometric pressures.
    
    depth of your lure is just as important as troll speed . at ice-out in
    the spring time you will want to be trolling with the lure just under
    the surface. right after ice-out all the feed fish such as smelt come
    to the surface for the oxygen rich water and plankton.  the larger
    predators come up after them and once the predators feel the oxygen
    rich water thier appetite is wet.
    
    As the water temperature warms , cold water fish start seeking deeper
    colder waters. Lakers are the first to disappear from the surface ,
    then salmon , then browns , then rainbows, then brookies.
    
    Lakers in the mid luly to mid august can be found as deep as 150 feet
    of water,  salmon can be found at about 35 to 40 feet of water , browns
    and rainbow can be found between 15 to 30 feet of water. brookies being
    the hardiest can be found from 5 feet to 30 feet.
    
    Judging how deep your lead is can be judged by the rule of thumb as you
    previously stated in .1as 5 feet per color considering a color of lead
    is 10 yards  and of course you are using 18lb. test lead core line.
    
    Dont forget that the faster the troll the shallower your line will be ,
    the slower the troll the deeper your line will be . Practice is the
    mother of all confidence and success , enjoy it .
    
    With a salmon troll of 7-8 feet per second and its july 15th , you want
    to have 8 to 9 colors out , maybe even 9 colors.
    
    For rainbows on july 15th you may want to try 3.5 colors to 5 colors.
    
    Of course all my ramblings here are subject to other opinions, on the
    other hand these are the guidelines I have learned to use that do work
    well for me and companions I have shared them with. 
    
    I will be interested in controversial rebutal , I do enjoy a difference of 
    opinion, I sometimes learn something wether or not I admit it immediateley.
    
    Hope this info can help in your persuit of the devine fish gods .
    
    ron

    Ron, real good info. I just wanna mention one thing - regardless of
    depth, you won't find fish below the thermocline. If you have a GOOD
    paper graph (I don't know about electronics...) you can see it, an
    oxygen meter (For the few that have 'em) can spot it, and a good
    temperature probe will work too. I'm not trying to be too technical,
    because I'm ill equipped to do so. I guess my point is that there still
    are a few guys that think like this: "Let's fish for lakers. The
    deepest part of the lake is 100', so let's go there and fish the
    bottom." If that particular lake is stratified, and the thermocline is
    at, say, 75', there won't be any game fish below it.
    
    

    
    
    
         re: last reply;
    
          I would have to disagree with the statement thet you wont find
    any gamefish below the thermocline, I have graphed and caught fish
    (almost all salmoniod species) above and below the thermocline, I have 
    caught salmon in 70 degree water and even caught them in 40 degree
    water, lotsa times 40 degrees is 20-30 foot below the thermal break.
    
         I will say that if you fish the thermocline your going to put more
    fish in the boat more often, but if you know how to read a graph, a
    temp prope, you fish where the fish are. we have taken some nice lakers
    off the bottom at 90 foot when the thermo was at 55-65 foot down.
    
                                               FWIW
                                                        Lee
    

    
    re; .16
    
    whats a temp probe?  something you lower over the side to a depth??
    
    JIm.

    your right, typically you would want to lay your lure 3-5 feet above
    that thermocline , where ever it is.
    
    On the other hand which thermocline are you after?
    
    I do agree that my statement of lakers being able to be found in 150
    feet of water could be misinterpreted as thats where to go for em. I
    must apologise for my lack of foresight while pounding out my
    statements in .14.
    
    aaahh regarding your statement of not having the latest high tech gear
    available on the market , if you did , wouldn't you have to call it
    harvesting instead of fishing?  Somethings ( to me at least ) are more
    rewarding the old fashioned way  ... I URRRRRRRNNNNNEEED IT.
    
    ron

    
    
        To answer the question of a temp probe.
      A temperature probe is a piece of electronic equipment that has 2
    parts, a receiver unit and the sending unit. the receiver part can be 
    placed just about anywhere on the boat, there is a transducer and
    speedometer that mounts on the transom.
       the transducer on the back of the boat receives the signals from the 
    down probe. the speedometer is used for surface speed, and surface
    temp. 
    
        Now the probe itself looks like a large bullet, approx 12" long and
    about 2-3" around, it has a wire through it with a snap swivel on each 
    end so when its hooked up it can swivel around. there is a speedometer
    wheel and a temp  guage, this unit is operated by a 9 V battery. this
    unit send th info back to the receiver at the boat.
    
      This unit is worth its weight in gold, since you need to know what
    temp you are in and even more important, what speed your lures are
    running at. contrary to belief just because your boat speed is 3 mph
    the lure speed may be 0, there are underwater current that can play
    havoc with your tackle. one day last fall we hit a bad current, going
    east we had to run the boat at 5.5-6 mph to have the lures at 1.5-2 mph
    but when we turned and ran west we had to idle down to .5 to keep the
    lures under 3mph. 
     so if it wasnt for a probe we would of been running at 1.5-2.5mph and
    when we were running east the lures would of been hanging staight down
    and when we turned around they would of been spinning.
    
    
       As far as having to much eqiupment and not earning our fish, beleive 
    me there are alot of days that even with all the equipment we do pretty 
    poorly, ie; 4-5 hrs to hook up, only catching 1 or 2 fish all day, the
    one thing all this equipment doesnt tell you is what lure to use, or
    what color to use.
    
    
    
                                                 Lee
     

    In response to Ron's method of determining the correct speed to
    troll for various species I guess I'd have to nit pick over the
    times somewhat, although it sounds like a great method and I plan
    on trying it the next time I'm out and don't have a trolling speed
    indicator handy! At 4ft per second for Lake Trout that would calculate
    out to 2.7 mph, and 8ft for salmon  would be almost 5.5mph. These are well
    over the norms for these species. I believe the most hits for salmon
    usually occur from 2.5 to 3 mph and lakers around 2....I guess it all
    depends on how accurate you count the seconds and how good you are at
    judging the distance between the swirls :-) Oh yeah, one more thing.
    Don't brook trout like cooler water compared to rainbows and browns ?
    I'd like to nail this down as they were going to stock Lake Sunapee NH
    with I think brookies and bows and I'd like to know what depth to start
    trolling for them this summer when I'm back east. Has anyone heard any
    word on the stocking program ? I believe it was to supplement the
    declining salmon population without hurting the basicly endangered
    smelt stocks...of course it seems to be sort of a lame idea as the
    brookies will munch down tons of smelt if there in a lake (rainbows
    too). They're only full of flies when in a lake, pond or river that has
    no smelt or minnows....
    
    Marty

    Hmmmm.   Miles per hour aaa.. I never gave a thought to the concept
    Marty.
    
    I'm not egemecated on trolling speeds measured in miles per hour , on
    the other hand I wonder if 2.5 mph would offer a salmon plenty of time
    to think about what that meal looks like . 
    
    I personally use streamer  flies and spinners of one type or another ,
    lets face , if you had a good look at it would you eat it.  ( 8,>
    I use the phylosophy consisting of a hungry fish capable of tremendous
    bursts of speed far exceeding 5.5 mph spotting a potential meal
    slipping by will hopefully attack that meal with ravenous and
    instinctive reaction . My philosophy has so far faired o.k.  Im no
    great white fisherman by no means.
    
    I agree with you Marty on the discretion of how you measure the
    distance between two pools you have created , I usually use
    approximate centers. 
    
    Your mention of brookies prefering cold waters , I agree with you . All
    then reading and experience I have listened to and personal experience
    says that all trout and salmon prefer and need cold water.
    
    Brookies raised in the northeast also have the adaptability to warmer
    waters which is contrary to thier cousins. Fish and game will 
    stock brookies in smaller and shallow ponds that are warm in the
    summer where rainbows would not be able to survive. Brookies can
    toleratea lower oxygen count found in warm water.
    
    Looks like this conversation needs to be moved huh. The title of this
    entry has nothing to do with what I got started. Sooorrrrry.    :'(
    
    ron 
    
    

    Well,
    	
    	I bought the 49L DownRigger Reel with a 8'6" Down Rigger Pole for 2
    reasons. First,,this year I will use Lead Core Line with it until I can
    get myself a DownRigger,,,and second,,,when I get a downrigger,,I will 
    switch to mono line.
    
    	The only thing about this reel is that it is TOOOOOO large for most
    trout trolling. It even says on the reel side,,"DEEP SEA REEL" which it
    did not say on the ad in the magazine.
    	I can't decide,,,,should I keep it,,,sell it to a interested 3rd
    party,,,or return it to BASS PRO CATALOG for a smaller reel......
    ....boy,,it is a nice reel but a little OVERKILL for 1-2 pound trout.
    
                                                  -�teve �.

    Jimmy, er...I mean Stevie
    
         I thought "WE" agreed you were going to buy a downrigger this
    year. 
    
         The 49L is definately "OVERKILL" for our smallish N.H. trout.
    And @ 30 ozs. you would be exhausted just carrying it to the boat.
    
         I would suggest a light to medium action spinning reel and rod.
    
         When the water warms up and the fish go a little deeper, buy
    that %#@%$ downrigger!
    
                                 Jeff (Captain) aka Jungy
                                 Team Starcraft