Conference wahoo::fishing-v2

Mr. Shimano
President

October 31, 1991

Shimano American Corporation
One Shimano Drive
Irvine,  CA   92718

Mr. Shimano:

I sent these questions to Shimano America several months ago and 
I have not received a response.  Can you possibly get this to 
whoever would be able to answer my questions?

I have questions concerning ball bearings on your line of bait 
casting fishing reels.   Can you explain to me the following:

    How does the number of Bearings affect a reel?

    How does the placement of the bearings affect a reel?

    How does the construction of the bearing affect the reel?

      Ie stainless steel verses graphite

Some companies advertise that bearings are for smooth reeling,  
others claim it is for greater casting and still others for 
durability.  Can you explain the differences?

Do all reel companies place the bearings in the same place or is 
Shimano's placement unique?

I have the Bantam Magnumlite and it boasts two bearings, how does 
that differ from the BKM 200 FS which has 3 or the BBM-VR which 
has 4 or my brothers which boast 5.  

I have Two of your spinning reels with matched rods and now own 
the baitcaster.  I am very pleased with your equipment and look 
forward to next seasons fishing.  I appreciate your help in 
answering my questions.  I work for a large computer corporation 
and in it we have a notes file that addresses a very large body 
of fishermen, if it is acceptable with you, I would like to post 
your response in this bulletin board.

Regards,


Brian S. Ota

SHIMANO 

Shimano American Corporation
One Shimano Drive
Irvine, CA   927-9615

December 4, 1991

Dear Mr. Ota:

I would like to begin by thanking you for your excellent letter dated 
October 31, and apologize for the lapse in time for my reply.  Fall is 
always a very busy time of year for us and we are seeing a great new 
season unfolding for us.

With respect to your questions:

There are bushings and ball bearings.  Bushings are metal (or 
sometimes other materials) donuts and ball bearings are self contained 
multi-piece mechanical devices.

The famous fishing tackle industry ball bearing is a multi-piece unit 
consisting of an inner and outer "race" and about six balls to 
transfer the load for the inner race to the outer race.

Technically, a "bearing" is any device that can hold (or bear) a load.  
Therefore, many companies sometimes use the singular word "bearing" 
and mean "bushing", it sounds better.  If they don't say "ball 
bearing", then you can bet your socks it's some form of bushing.

Bushings are usually made from brass or bronze.  They can be made from 
graphite/plastic resins, which gives rise to the term "graphite 
bearing".  This means, "graphite donut load bearing device".  Shimano 
has never done this and will not ever do so.

Ball bearings are expensive compared to bushings.  The difference 
varies as to the quality of the ball bearing.  Ball bearings reduce 
the rotational resistance of parts under load.  So, the greater (to a 
point) the number of bearings on a reel, the less effort required to 
retrieve line.  The reel may be smoother under load than if it had no 
ball bearings.  Many other things govern smoothness.

Additionally, due to better load distribution (which is different way 
of stating the same benefit), more bearings usually mean greater 
durability.  When a bushing is worn, many other parts experience 
greater wear due to the change in tolerances.  Bearings can "wear out" 
but don't cause excess wear in other parts.  They merely do not turn 
as freely as they once did.

The main places to put ball bearings are anywhere there is rotational 
motion.  Anywhere on the spool shaft, drive gear shaft or even the 
line guide gear are all potential locations for ball bearings.

The best places for bearing placement are where the load is greatest.  
That would be the spool shaft and drive gear.  There are three 
potential locations on the spool shaft and two on the main drive gear 
shaft.

The spool shaft locations are either end and up against the spool 
flange/pinion gear interface.  The main shaft locations are anywhere 
between the main shaft and the body, or the main shaft and the 
sideplate.  Most companies use some combination of these locations.

Your Magnumlite with 2 ball bearings has them on the ends of the spool 
shaft.  The BKM200FS has that plus one on the drive gear shaft.  And 
the BBM with 4 has 3 spool shafts and one drive gear bearing.  The BBM 
with 5 has 3 spool shaft bearings and 2 drive shaft bearings.

Recently, there has been the introduction of roller bearings into 
baitcasting reels.  Roller bearings transfer the load from the inner 
race to the outer cylinders, not spheres.  These have two benefits; 
roller bearings are better suited for higher load/low revolution 
applications and they can also be made so that they only turn in one 
direction.  Thus they work great on main gear drive shafts and allow 
for an anti-reverse system that has almost zero play.  Good for faster 
hooksets!

Since spool revolutions can get up to 10-20,000 revolutions per minute 
during a cast, it is better to use ball bearings on them, and not 
roller bearings.

I have tried to be as complete as possible without getting too 
tedious.  Feel free to post this response on your computer system.  if 
I can be of further assistance, please let me know.  Till then, enjoy 
fishing Shimano.

Sincerely, 

SHIMANO AMERICAN CORPORATION


Toyozo Shimano

    I am in the market to purchace a Bait casting reel;  The problem that
    I am having is that all the reels that I have seen have the "crank"
    on the right side.  I would a bait casting unit w/ the crank on the 
    left side.  
    
    Questions:
    
    1) Is there a reel made w/ the crank on the left side?
    
    2) Is the price more?
    
    3) Loaded question....What is a good "middle" of the line product?
    
    Thanks for the input.
    
    Jeff

    
    
    RE: -1
    
       1. YES
    
       2. NO
    
       3. Abu and Daiwa both make left hand retrieve baitcasters that won't
       break the bank.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Bear
    

 I have a shimano bass one that cranks on the left. About $40-45 when I got
it two years ago.

    I just got a Quantum left handed; 1310L.
    
    Love it.  Nice reel
    
    I had a Shimano BTX Mag 101.  Didn't like it.  Too many parts to clean.
    Disassembly was a royal pain.
    
    My Quantum is a dream.  
    
    fwiw.
    
    /brett  

Abu 521/XLT series, about $45 from BPS.  Awesome reel.

Tim

    Tim,
    
    I agree 100% on the 521 XLT.  Unfortunately ABU Garcia decided to
    discontinue that line, including the Synchros.   The replacement
    line consists of the Black Max ($55 - $60), the Gold Max ($65 - $75),
    and the Pro Max ($120 - $125).  They all come with the lifetime
    warranty, however only the Pro Max has the Cam-lock spool.  
    
    If anyone knows where I can pick up two XLT reels, please let me know,
    otherwise I'll have to try to decide which "Max" reel to buy.
    
    Gus..
    
    

    anyone have a Megacast from BPO.  My brother is thinking about buying
    one.
    
    brian

    
     Hay Oat !!
     
           Did you check the bass file???
     
                                              ha ha 
                                                   murph  

I went hog-wild over the weekend, and bought a Shimano Curado reel. This
is a C-note reel. The adds say "five bearings" meaning four ball bearings
and one roller bearing. The gear ratio is 6.2:1. It has infinite
antireverse, a thumb bar, and is available for left hand cranking. These
three characteristics are exactly what I was looking for.  (It's tough to
find a quality left hand reel.)

A couple of interesting points: it does NOT have a flipping switch (I
have other reels with this, and I *never* use it). It does NOT have a
magnetic drag control on the side opposite the crank. Instead, inside the
cover plate there are six individually adjustable (on or off) "weights"
mounted on radial pins. You're supposed to adjust these weights according
to your casting ability. I turned them all on for now ("experts" turn
them all off). The star drag has an audible ratchet and pawl sound,
something I haven't run into before.

I spooled it up with 8# Stren MagnaThin, simply because I had some. I
think this was a mistake, and I'll go to heavier line because I want less
line stretch on this rig (6' 100% graphite, straight handle with trigger).
Anyway, I tied on a weight and went out yard casting. This is the
best non-backlashing reel I've ever owned, period. What's surprising is
that the weight turned out to be 3/16 oz, which is much lighter than I'm
going to use with this outfit. I tied on a 3/8 oz spinnerbait and was
casting it a country mile, with accuracy.

It's also the smoothest reel I've over owned, and the antireverse is the
most positive I've ever owned. The action freezes NOW. Will it last?
We'll see.

Art

    I bought the Citicia which is the model below yours and love it.  I
    have two other Shimano baitcasters and believe they are a high quality
    solid, dependable reel. For one thing, they are just plain comfortable
    using all day long.  The body is molded and ergonomic in design so you
    can cup it comfortable with both hands.  Smooth as silk casting too.
    
    I like this rollerbearing.  its mounted in the handle so you get zero
    back pedal on the handle.  I noticed no matter what other baitcaster I
    have tried you get a little backplay on the handle.
    
    By the way those pins are actually magnets.  I don't have any one on
    you should see how far this badboy casts.
    
    You are gonna catch some notes here from folks who hate shimano, but I
    love em
    
    Brian

I went to a sporting goods dealer show yesterday, and made it a point to
hit *every* reel booth and innocently ask for left hand high-quality casting reels.
I've been through all the Gander Mountain/Cabela's/Bass Pro/etc catalogs,
and have gotten the Quantum/Shimano/Daiwa/Silstar/etc catalogs. 

Picture this: a silver (color) or mill finish aluminum (or even gold)
finish; barrel shape; thumb bar; infinite reverse; six ball bearings,
plus maybe a roller bearing; WITH THE CRANK ON THE LEFT.

They don't make'em. The Quantum factory guy said "The tooling costs are
over $3 million to produce that reel; we can't justify it until the
volume comes up." I said, "If you don't make it, and hence can't sell it,
HOW CAN THE VOLUME COME UP?" He coughed.

The Shimano guy said he thought they have them in Japan, but not for
export.

(Before I get beat up for this, I have a Shimano Curado left hand reel;
there *are* high quality left-handers, but not many.)

Art

    re. 13
    
    Art, welcome to the club.  I too prefer left handed baitcasting reels
    and the higher quality reels (5 bb or more) just don't come left
    handed.  Because of that, I've passed up buying some better reels and 
    bought the 2 BB type instead.  Daiwa also makes a Left handed
    Baitcaster with 5 bb.  I don't remember the eact model name but I'm
    sure it's in the BPS catalog.  I bought mine from Dick's tackle years 
    ago for about $70.  I've fished with the left handed Curado as well.
    The Curado is the better of the two, but it cost $20 more.  Don't know
    what the answer is, just like you said, it sounds like a catch 22.
    
    							Gary 

	   Abu Garcia Classics in either the 5501-C3 or the 6501-C3 are
	3 ball bearing reels.  I don't have the latest and greatest
	catalog, but they come in instant anti-reverse, 2-speed, etc.

	   I think some of the Quantum Pro series also come in left crank.

					B.C.

Re: .14 

The 5 BB Daiwa is the Samurai, or PS2-5BB, PS2L-5BB for lefthand).  It has 
a graphite body and is very light (7.8 oz), has magnetic cast control, no 
instant antireverse, and a 5.2:1 ratio.  It costs $73 these days.

The Shimano Curado has 4 BB, a cast aluminum body, weighs 8.5 oz, Variable 
Brake System (centrifugal cast control with 6 brakes that can be engaged 
and disengaged independently - but you have to open up the reel), instant 
antireverse, and a 6.2:1 ratio.  It costs $100.

Does the Curado perform better than the Samurai?  In what way?

Tom

Re: .15 

It's a shame Abu doesn't make the 4600-C3 (4601 for lefthand) any more.  
Some might think the spools on the 5500 and 6500 are too big for bass 
fishing.  The Bass Pro Royal Express I is similar to the 4600, but it 
doesn't have a ball bearing on the main shaft, and the foot is graphite.

I have the Abu 5500-C3 and 6500-C3, both in 2-speed.  The 2-speed is not 
a gimmick.  It's ingenious and very well designed, with smooth, quick, 
positive shifting.  You can barely feel it shift.  Low gear really helps 
when fighting a big fish, and high gear is instantly there if he runs 
toward you.

Tom

    I have the shimano Citicia left handed I think its two BB and a roller
    bearing.  I also have the Abu royal express II which is a good
    baitcaster in the more classic design.  Both of these reels are good
    reals overall I like the shimano.  Its smoother, casts longer and is
    more ergodynamic and it looks nice.
    
    The citicia is about 20 less than the curado and for me its as good as
    I need.
    
    Brian

    rep.16
    
    Tom, IMHO the Curado is a smoother reel overall.  The Samurai seems to
    have more slop in it.  I could be a little baised on the Curado, when I 
    used it, it was mounted on an IMX Loomis rod.  On the day I used it, I
    was casting medium sized crayfish with just a small split shot for
    weight.  After adjusting the internal magnets once, I don't recall
    getting a backlash the rest of the day, and I was suprised how far and
    smooth it cast that light weight.  But the reel was brand spankin new, the 
    guide had only used it only once or twice.  I really haven't tried to cast 
    anything that light on my Samurai.
    
    I also own a Daiwa PT 1500 (2 BB) left hander, which in my opinion is the
    little brother to the Samurai.  Actually I've had the 1500 a season
    longer.  Right now both reels feel the same in overall smoothness, 
    which pisses me off because the Samurai (in theory) should last longer
    and always feel smoother.  And, I just got both reels back from being
    serviced !!!!!  
    
    							Gary
    
    

    re.18
    
    Brian, your beginning to sound like LOL "and it looks nice" 8^) !!! 
    Now a days there's only a $10 difference between the Citica and Curado.  
    I guess everyone caught on to how good the Citica was and Mr. Shimano
    decided to cash in on it.
    							Gary

    re.13
    
    Art,
    
    	Browning this year has come out with a 6 bearing left handed
    baitcasting reel.  SPAGs in Worcester just had them on sale this past
    weekend for $70 (69.99).  Mike Yellick (local Bass Pro) was in the 
    Browning booth and showed me this reel.  It's much smoother than my 
    Dawia Samuri with 5 BB, and it has the constant anti reverse.  
    
    	Needless to say I bought one.  Now they're $79.99.  The only model
    SPAGs had was the 6.2 to 1 ratio.  Which is what I wanted.  This same 
    reel comes in a 5.1 to 1 and 4.4 to 1 ratio as well.  The Tackle Annex
    in Hudson MA. has all these models and sells them for about $85.  The 
    only negative thing is the reels "are not" 6 ball bearings.  They are
    5 ballbearings (3 on the spool shaft, 2 on the main gear drive shaft)
    and 1 bearing (which I believe is really a bushing) on the worm gear
    shaft.  
    
    	But like I said "it feels good" and is very light (9.5 oz), 
    and the overall quality of the workmanship looks better than my Diawa.
    The reels are made by Browning and are called the Aggressor 600 series
    Baitcast.  Obviously they're also made in right handed models as well.
    
    							Gary

I have been breaking my reels down to the bearing level cleaning 
them and getting them ready for my fishing trip this friday.

Well yesterday I took apart my Shimano Curado and Shimano Citicia 
baitcasters. 

What has pissed me off, is they are the same reel, down to the 
springs.  There is no difference between the Curado and the 
Citicia except the Curado costs about $25 more.  Unless I missed 
something somewhere it had the same roller bearing and bearings.  
Both bodies seem to be the same aluminum frame too.  Other than 
color and price differences, they are the same reel.

What a rip off.

Brian

    Yup! They do it all the time!!! I liked the new anti-reverse reels that
    came out in both bait and spin casting. As it turned out, a Pinnacle
    was a Vertex (Sylstar) which was a Bass Pro.....All the same reels just
    different prices....
    
    Naturally, I bought the less expensive ones after my buddies paid for
    the Pinnacle name.....The owner of the Tackle Annex in Hudson showed me
    that. Not only is he an ace Bass Fisherman but he's willing to show you
    things and help you out as well...(yes, that was a plug)
    
    Bob M....

    	 A buddy of mine just bought a Corado. I like the reel very much
    and I was considering it my next purchase. Thanks for the review. I
    think you may have saved me some cash. 
    	Also, what do the "springs" do exactly? Is there that much of a
    difference that Shimano would charge $25 more? 
    I've never stripped one of these reels down and I'm not sure of where
    these springs are located but....If they do make a significant diff,
    why not just get a set from a repair shop and install them...
    
    _kev- (HOT ROD Citicia)

    What do you think the odds are that the difference is the tolerances of the
parts?  Can you tell the difference if a shaft or bearing that's +/- .003"
instead of +/- .001".  I'm told the 4k memory chips that Digital used to reject
back in the old days would show up as 1K chips at Radio Shack.  Just because
you can't SEE the difference doesn't mean there isn't one...  What does the
manufacturer do with his marginal parts?  He puts them in a lower priced model
or he scraps them.  Which would you do?

Al

    Hmmm? Maybe that's why my buddies Bass Pro Qualifier, which is a
    Pinnacle, which is a Vertex blew up on that viscious Steelhead
    strike... Then again, I have seen $200.00+ Daiwa Reels blow up on
    Steelhead Hits...
    
    Regardless, they all have the same warranty and Bass Pro is always very
    helpful while honoring warranties...I also just love listening to the
    sweetheart on the other end with the Southern Drawl asking "Now how did
    that happen again?" "What's a Steelhead?" to which I reply "It's like a
    Bass on Steroids!!!!"
    
    Bob M.....

    -2
    
    The parts are visually identical, you would have to look to see what I
    mean, I doubt the tolerances are any different.  Its hard to describe
    it, but I very seriously doubt the bearings or the roller bearing is
    any different.  The only thing I might add, there may have been a
    bearing in some part I did not take apart, but I pretty much ripped
    these reels apart.  No, I am pretty confident these are the same reels,
    just one costs a lot more.
    
    Brian
                              

    Hey stupid, stop complaining to us and do what you do best.  Dear Mr 
    Shimano, **********************************************************
    ************ **************************** *************************
    ************   ****************   *********************************
    ******************************** ********* ************************
    
    						your pal,
    							 Brian

    Gees Madd Matt
    
    I already have the letter drafted and planned on sending it, you know
    me too well.....
    
    Oats
    

    Brian,
    	
    	I only have the Curado (smoothest casting reel I've ever owned) so
    I can't speak for the Citica.  But, I wonder on the Citica, if they're
    using bushings that resemble ball bearings, in places where the Curado 
    uses ball bearings.  I think the Curado has 3 BB on the spool shaft
    (1 at the end where you adjust lure tension, 1 on the spool itself,
     1 at the other end of the spool shaft where the access door unscrews)
    and 1 BB and the roller bearing in the Handle shaft.
    
    						Gary

    Gary
    
    I think there might be a bearing on the shaft, it was in an area that
    was very hard to reach.  The other bearing in both Citicia and Curado
    are the same bearing.  Both of the rollerbearings are identical too.  I
    know this doesn't sound very analytical, but you have to see them side
    by side to know they are the same reel.
    
    Brian