Conference wahoo::fishing-v2

    Bear---
    
    I use double-bladed paddles all the time.
    
    It keeps the canoe straight, makes it go faster, and is less tiring.
    
    The ideal length of the paddle will vary according to the width of the
    canoe and the length of your arms. I use a 7-foot double-bladed paddle
    in an old (70+ years) canvas-covered Old Town Canoe.
    
    John H-C

    
    
    John,
    
       How far down do your paddles break down?  We have to portage with 
    these things.  I assume they are aluminum rods with hard plastic blades
    that can be, at the very least, collapsable to some extent.  We'll need
    blades that are durable but we don't want to spend a fortune.
    Thanks again!
    
    Bear
    
     

    I have wooden paddles, but come next Spring, I will probably by
    aluminum ones because they can take the kind of beating that my wooden
    ones have proved they can't. [sense?]
    
    Anyway, they come apart into two pieces, which is useful for fitting
    them in the car.
    
    I think I should also mention that with two people paddling, you need
    to have either a loooong canoe or a very good cooperative timing. It is
    very easy for the front and back paddles to knock together and 
    throw everything off (and possibly one or both occupants out of the canoe).
    This is why the person who sits in the front of the canoe gets a free 
    ride when I'm paddling.
    
    Of course, if you get shorter double paddles, that will do something to
    alleviate the need for the loooong canoe, but it will also mean that
    both paddlers will have to bend laterally more to get a good dig into
    the water....
    
    John H-C

    
    
       We do have long canoes but... for this year I think we will probably
    get two double-bladed paddles (one for each canoe), and have the rear
    person (sternsman, don't even think anything else), use them. :^)
    Thanks for your input.
    
    Bear
    
    

    If one person is using a regular paddle and the other is using a
    two-blade paddle, one of them will have to stop paddling to make the
    boat stearable, or the person with the two-blade paddle will have to
    start using only one blade. This observation is based on one *very*
    frustrating and exhausting afternoon on the Nashua River with another
    180-pound guy in the front seat.
    
    John H-C

	I recall reading many years ago that single bladed paddles are
less tiring than doubles because of the "rest" part of the stroke when
the paddle is removed from the water...much like one leg resting while 
you walk. 
	Its obvious that other opinions exist but it might be worthwhile 
to check it out before you take off on an extended trip. What works for
one person may not work for another.
Regards,
Paul (Single blade fan and too old to change.)

    I agree with .6 200% - It's either the electro-troll or the J-Stroke.
Just a slight 'kick' away from the canoe at the end of each stroke keeps
you tracking (almost) true - there's a slight 'zig-zag' - but then that's
GREAT when trolling. The power used on the 'kick' is next to nothing - in
fact at a leasurly(sp) pace just cocking (rolling) the blade slightly will
do the trick. Even when I'm stern-man with a buddy at the bow I greatly
prefer to paddle so-lo using the J-Stroke.

    My favorite stroke is a J-Stroke where, after the 'kick', the paddle
is returned to the top of the next stroke WITHOUT EXITING THE WATER (just
cut up through it like a knife - blade paralell to the canoe). No little
splashes to spook the fishes!

JW-FWTWMTWBTWIH(M)

Post Script - Doesn't the water run down the shafts of a dual-blade paddle
to your hands etc. if you let the off-side blade come above horizontal? I
wood think it wood ...........

    .6 & .7 bring up good points. The speed and direction control of a
    double paddle are useful mainly for covering long distances in a
    shorter period of time and for negotiating a moderately stiff current,
    especially upstream.
    Given that Bear was talking about the Minnesota boundary waters,
    though, I suspect that double-blade paddles may fit his needs a bit
    better than the standard paddle.
    
    John H-C

    I do alot of canoe camping.  I'd be willing to give double bladed
    paddles a shot, but I'd definitely trying them out *before* embarking 
    on an extended trip in the boundry waters.  That way if you don't like 
    them, your not stuck with them.
    
    From the sounds of it, I can't see how they could beat traditional
    paddles for tandem paddling a canoe all day on non-WW.
    
    I can paddle the J stroke comfortably all day, at a relaxed pace. I'm
    guessing that tandem paddles lend themselves to more aggressive
    paddling styles.
    
    -donmac
    

    
    
       I want to try the paddles out before we embark on our trip but...
    when going into the BWCA for a two week stay the canoe will be packed
    a little different.  With two men aboard and all gear, each canoe will
    be loaded with between 500 & 600 lbs., and I'm not ambitious enough to
    load up a canoe and test paddles.  What I think we'll end up doing is 
    borrowing or renting from our outfitter who suggested them in the first
    place, while also having our standard paddles.  
       Also with a completely loaded canoe, changing sides isn't as easy as
    it may seem.  There are a number of places along our route where the
    water gets fairly swift with boulders the size of uranus, (sorry
    couldn't resist), anywhere from 10 feet to 10mm. under water.  The
    front-man has to keep a constant watch for these and yell quickly
    either port or starboard.  In this instance there have been times when
    I wished I had a double blade to quickly change direction.
       Someone said they could paddle all day without  any discomfort?
    I consider myself in fair shape for 32 year old DECie and if I were
    to paddle all day, which I have, my back is going to be sore.  But 
    I must say that we added backrests to the canoe and they are worth
    they're weight in deep heating rub.  Nuff fer now.
    
    
    Bear
    
    

  >  Someone said they could paddle all day without  any discomfort?
  >  I consider myself in fair shape for 32 year old DECie and if I were
  >  to paddle all day, which I have, my back is going to be sore.  But 
  >  I must say that we added backrests to the canoe and they are worth
  >  they're weight in deep heating rub.  Nuff fer now.
   
    I said that.  Without back rests my back gets sore in a few hours. 
    I've been using back rests for the last 7 years or so and don't have
    too much trouble maintaining a leisurely (slow) pace all day, assuming 
    we're not fighting the wind all day - and we stop a few times to relax.
    
    -donmac

    
    
    
       Didn't mean to sound snippy there donmac.  And Amen to not fighting
    wind!  Thee toughest time I've ever had in a canoe was 2 years ago
    trying to go across an open lake fully loaded into a huge wind.  Double
    single, it wouldn't have mattered much.  Paddle as hard as you can just
    to be blown stright back or completely off course.  Finally when the
    waves started coming over the front of the canoe we sought refuge on
    shore. later.
    
    
    Bear
    
    

    Re .10>
    	Sounds like a good plan. I would recommend taking a couple 
    spares for an extended trip. If you hit any white water, paddles take a
    beating. 
    	BTW - In my experience the bow man would move the bow of the 
    canoe in rocky situations like the one you mentioned and the stern 
    would react to this signal/motion. The bow man has a lot better 
    visibility. This can be done with a draw were the bow is moved to 
    the side you are paddleing on or a cross draw for the oposite. I 
    imagine this could be done with either style paddle, exept you would 
    probably draw in both directions with the dual blade version.
    Regards,
    Paul 
    

    I second Paul's comments about the bow man in .13, especially with a
    heavily loaded canoe.
    
    John H-C

    
    
       I agree that the bowman has a much better view, and if I remember
    that is what I said.  But, if an obstruction is detected and a hard 
    maneuver has to be made, the stern man is the one to do this not by
    paddling but, for lack of a better term, ruddering.
    
    Bear
    
    

    I've got a solo whitewater canoe (Mad River ME) that I'd also like to
    use as an occasional fishing craft while in alaska this summer.  The ME
    has almost no initial stability, so I'm thinking of making some kind of
    removeable sponsons for use while fishing.  Has anyone
    ever done/made something like this?  Any ideas?
    
    I'd also like the boat to track better while paddling on lakes (it's
    got extreme rocker, and is a bear to paddle in a straight line in the
    wind) and was thinking of trying to make some kind of removeable skeg
    or rudder.  Any ideas on this?
    
    Steve
     
    

    re:sponsons
    
    	I don't think they'd be too difficult to build and install. I would
    think that they'd get in the way of fishing though. If you moved them
    in closer to the canoe, then they might get in the way of paddling. 
    
    	If you made one that could easily switch sides while underway, this 
    may solve that problem so long as any fish you catch doesn't wind up on 
    the same side as the sponson.
    
    	I've seen some canoes that have some kind of foam stuck right to
    the sides of the canoe. Perhaps this would help without getting in the
    way. Not sure how effective it would be though. Maybe someone that has
    one of those types of canoes can comment on their stability.
    
    	RAYJ

    I've never paddled a playboat like the ME, but with that amount of
    rocker I can see how that would be a real challenge to paddle on
    flat water.
    
    From the fact that your taking an ME to alaska I would assume that your
    planning on having some fun in some serious whitewater.  But if you
    think you might spend more time paddling or fishing, you might want to 
    try and line up another boat.  Something with slight rocker and a shallow 
    V might be up to both the jobs depending on the water and your
    experience level.
    
    Don't think the foam would help improve the initial stability.  It
    might help keep it from flipping but I doubt that's a problem. (foam
    on the sides is also used to help hunting dogs climb in, yes, it makes
    it a pain to paddle)
    
    -donmac

    RE:<<< Note 73.18 by RANGER::MACINTYRE "Terminal Angler" >>>
    
    >>>From the fact that your taking an ME to alaska I would assume that your
    >>>planning on having some fun in some serious whitewater.  But if you
    >>>think you might spend more time paddling or fishing, you might want to 
    >>>try and line up another boat.  Something with slight rocker and a shallow 
    >>>V might be up to both the jobs depending on the water and your
    >>>experience level.
    
    I'm taking the ME because it's the only canoe I own (my other boat is a
    whitewater kayak).  I'm planning to do some rivers of around class III,
    including the Alsek and maybe something in gates of the arctic.  I
    figured that since I'll have the canoe with me anyway, I might as well
    get some additional use out of it by expanding my fishing
    possibilities.  Buying another boat at this time isn't realistic.
    
    >>>Don't think the foam would help improve the initial stability.  It
    >>>might help keep it from flipping but I doubt that's a problem. (foam
    >>>on the sides is also used to help hunting dogs climb in, yes, it makes
    >>>it a pain to paddle)
    
    Right now, I can easily dip a gunwhale under the water line by leaning
    a little to one side.  I don't care if the boat still leans, but I
    would like something to keep the gunwhale above the water line.  Since
    the boat is 15' long, I thought I could mount my foam (or whatever) in
    front of and behind my paddling position, so that it wouldn't get in
    the way, and use something like 'C' clamps to attach it in order to not
    impair it's whitewater ability.
    
    Steve
    
    

    Steve --
    
    One possibility that comes to my mind is to mount four stabilizers,
    each about two feet long, on the starboard and port sides of the bow
    and stern of your canoe about three inches above the water line.
    
    These could be made of PVC pipe closed at both ends and full of air or
    foam. The arm between the pipe and the gunwale would be permanently
    attached to the pipe. The end that clamps onto the gunwale would be a
    "soft c-clamp."
    
    This would allow you to paddle normally but would prevent capsizing.
    Using the soft c-clamps would allow you to put them on and remove them
    with minimal effort. Something like this:

    
    
                            /\
                           /  \
               | |        /    \        | |
               | |-------/      \-------| |
               | |      /        \      | |
                       |          |
                       |          |
                       |          |
                       |          |
                       |          |
                       |          |
               | |      \        /      | |
               | |-------\      /-------| |
               | |        \    /        | |
                           \  /
                            \/
    
    
    John H-C
    

I don't know what the Mad River canoe looks like, but I've had a Grumman 15'
white water canoe for 20 years. It's all I ever use for fishing on lakes and
ponds, either trolling w/electric motor or paddling. My canoe has a about a 1"
keel all along the bottom. If I'm alone, and sitting  way in the back of the
canoe (where I like to sit), I always put the biggest rock I can find up in the
front (my silent passenger!). This keeps the keel down in the water, instead of
having the front lifted up, so I can steer better and hold a course in the
water. It also greatly lowers the center of gravity, and improves stability.
Sittin in the back gives me better control, whether I'm J-Stroking with the
paddle, or steering the Min-Kota.

That's why there's a nice handy rock sittin' at the ramp on most Southern NH
lakes like Nubanusit, Dublin, etc. - right where I left it - feel free to borrow
it !

Dave (who-went-to-the-Milford-hatchery-and-got-psyched-on-seeing-1
Million-plus-trout-the-other-day)

RE: .21

I'd be more inclined to use a plastic container filled with water.  Then
if the canoe also became full of water, the ballast would only weigh as 
much as the plastic, while the rock would still be a rock :-)

All kidding aside, that's dangerous.  If you swamp your canoe with a heavy
rock in it, it's going to sink.  Five gallons of water weighs about 40 lb, 
so a couple of cheap plastic gasoline containers would give you a lot of 
ballast.  Fill them to the top so they can't slosh around.  If you use the 
canoe in saltwater, fill them with that and they'll weigh even more.

Tom

    Aha!  now I know why my Nubamusit rock is missing some days...
    

    re: "I don't know what the Mad River canoe looks like, but I..."
    
    The Mad River ME he mentioned is a whitewater playboat, alot of rocker,
    meaning it looks sorta like a banana, which is great for whitewater but
    not too great for paddling.  Most Mad River canoes have a slight rocker 
    with a shallow V design (no keel).  Keels are a given on aluminum
    boats, it's a seem, but are typically avoided on most canoe designs.
    Keels do help smaller flat bottomed canoes track better, but keel-less
    designed are typically much more efficient.  Plus keels can act as a
    catch in whitewater which can cause problems. 
    
    -donmac

RE: .22

My Grumman is extremely hard to sink, even if swamped. I think it's rated to
hold around 600 lbs. and still stay at the surface while swamped. This is
because it's got foam floatation under the metal skin at the front and back.

For me, having ballast makes it much safer than the "tippy-ness" without it.

By the way, mine's not a square-back, so I had to mount wood strips to clamp my
motor onto the side near the rear seat. This has worked out great, and I can
troll real well even in the typical Nubanusit springtime chop. (The place is
like a wind tunnel at times). When trolling, I have a spare battery, with the
spare at the front (instead of using a rock) and the battery I'm using at the
back, underneath my seat. I also have a clamp off the side for my transducer,
when I decide to bring along my paper chart recorder (mini Si-Tek fish-finder).
Usually, I just poke along and flyfish, but I've also been successful trolling
with a lead-core boat rod for salmon and lakers at Winni and Lake George NY.

Dave

Dave,

I think Grumman's claim is that your canoe can carry 600 lbs of cargo and
still keep its gunwales safely above the waterline.  That's the kind of
statistic that other companies like Old Town specify, and it's value is 
in the same ballpark.

Once the boat is swamped, you can't simply say it will support x lbs of
cargo.  You have to say what the cargo's density is.  The weight of an 
object that is submerged in water is equal to its weight above the water
minus the weight of an equivalent volume of water.  So denser objects
weigh proportionally more when submerged.

Lead's density is about 11 times that of water, so a piece of lead will
weigh 11 tims as much as an equivalent volume of water.  A 40 lb piece
of lead will weigh about 36 lbs when submerged.  A 40 lb rock will weigh
about 30 lbs when submerged.  A 5 gallon plastic container full of 40 lbs
of water will weigh slightly more than zero when submerged.  An empty 5 
gallon plastic container will weigh minus 40 lbs when submerged.  Etc.

The flotation in the canoe weighs close to zero, but an equivalent amount
of water probably weighs around 15 to 30 lbs (a 1 to 2 gallon sized piece
of styrofoam at each end, at about 8 lbs per gallon of water).  So the
floatation would weigh around minus 15 to minus 30 lbs when submerged.

A human weighs about the same as an equivalent volume of water (hopefully 
a little less), so your weight when submerged is just about zero.  If the
canoe has enough floatation to keep itself from sinking when submerged,
it can keep you from sinking too.  But you have to be submerged so your
weight is close to zero.  If you sit up in the swamped boat, the part of
you that is above the water weighs its normal weight, so you and the
boat will sink until the floatation's negative weight can counter the
positive weight of what still remains above the water.

So your swamped canoe may not sink with a single 40 lb rock or a large 
battery in it, but will definitely go down with two rocks or batteries.
It's certainly easy enough to demonstrate in some nice shallow water.

Tom

    Re .16>
    Steve,
    
    	I think your trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear, or vice
    versa. Your boat is great for what it was designed for but too radical
    for the other uses you mention. They are at both ends of the spectrum.
    	The characteristics of the boat are designed into its hull. You
    could go through an elaborate retrofit but I think you'll just be
    adding inconvenient and unwieldy extras.   
    	I ended up with two canoes; one for river and one for lake. Its
    really the only workable solution. 
    	Of course this is only my viewpoint... your mileage may vary.
    
    Regards,
    Paul

    RE: <<< Note 73.27 by DNEAST::OKERHOLM_PAU >>>
    
>>>    	I think your trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear, or vice
>>>    versa. Your boat is great for what it was designed for but too radical
>>>    for the other uses you mention. They are at both ends of the spectrum.
>>>    	The characteristics of the boat are designed into its hull. You
>>>    could go through an elaborate retrofit but I think you'll just be
>>>    adding inconvenient and unwieldy extras.   
    
    I actually agree with you 100% that my boat is totally inappropriate
    for fishing and flatwater use.  The problem is that it's what I've got
    right now, and I'm not in a position to carry two canoes all the way to
    alaska (even if I could afford to buy a second boat right now).  I
    guess what I'm saying is that given a choice between being limited to
    fishing from shore, or fishing from an inappropriate type of canoe, I'd
    rather have the flexibility of using the canoe, and making some simple,
    removeable modifications to make it slightly less inappropriate.  After
    all, my main goal is still to use it to run whitewater.
    
    On the plus side, I just got a catalog from Voyageur's, and they sell
    exactly what I'm looking for - a set of inflateable sponsons that
    attach to each side of the canoe to stabilize it.  They cost $90 a set,
    so I'm still going to try to jury-rig something myself.
    
    Steve