Conference wahoo::fishing-v2

    
    
      In the note 31 there are people saying that fishfinders dont help you
    catch fish, well from personal experience I will have to say for most
    of you small ponds/lakes this is probably somewhat true but if you get
    out on big water you need a fishfinder to find the fish, bait, and
    thermocline, the unit I have is not the best made as a matter of fact 
    its a very inexpensive unit, but it does work good.
    
       I have watched fish come up on the screen and then have the fish 
    hit one of my lures, you also have to remember that what you see on the 
    screen doesnt mean the fish is right under the boat, and it doesnt mean
    that fish wants to eat at that time.
    
       I think that the fishfinder on my boat is one of the most important
    pieces of equipment i have, it tells me speed, temps, distance log, and
    does a really good job of marking fish.
    
       I dont want to start a flame under anyone but a fishfinder can be 
    does show fish, its just you gotta have the right lure/right
    presentation/ and most of all right place at the right time, as was
    previosly stated in the replies to note 31
    
    
                                                  Lee
      

    Lee, your absolutely right.  Most of the replies in the other note are
    referring to the type of lakes that the base note describes.  Sonar 
    does "find fish" while fishing for salmonoids on the big water.
    
    Mind if we change the title of the base not to "sonar"?
    
    -donmac

    
    Lee,
    
       I just sold my BOTTOMLINE fish finder as it would read everything as
    fish. What is the one you're currently using? I'm heading over to Oak
    Orchard (about an hour west of you) on the 18th and I want to pick up
    an INterphase conbined fish finder/loran unit before then. Heard
    anything about them?
    
           Thanks, John
    

    
    
    I have a Eagle FISH ID PLUS, I agree that theese units show things as
    fish even if they arent but  think you will find this with any unit you
    get, heck I dropped a small splitshot down by the transducer one day
    and it showed up as a fish, so if you fish where there is a large
    amount of weeds or stuff in the water you will have that with any fish
    finder.
    
     The Interphase combo is a good unit, and a loran is a nice feature to
    have, I think you will be pleased with it. I havent got a loran yet but
    I will definatly have one by next spring if not sooner, and even a new
    fishfinder a color screen one, unless I find a good buy on a amber one.
    
    
                                                  Lee
    

    I think all the fish id units do is use software to find any pixel
    that's not connected to the bottom and convert it to the picture
    of a fish. The algorithm allows the user to adjust sensitivity etc.
    What your really doing is setting the number of pixels that either
    equals a fish, or gets ignored...Or the space between the bottom
    and a lit up pixel that equals a fish...It's just a big marketing
    gimmick. Now there's a new technology out that uses some sort of
    FM transmitter/receiver (saw it in one of the EE rags) that can
    tell for reel if it's a fish or something else...sounds like the
    way to go...
    
    Marty

    Would this explain why certain rocky areas of Winnipesaukee, especially
    deep (45-70 feet---deep for exposed rocks) rocky areas, are laced with
    lost trolling lines?!?!?
    
    I've been wondering for a long time why people trolling drag their
    lines through the rocks.
    
    Could it be that all these people have been trolling the open water and
    watching their fishfinders/sonars and then suddenly see HUNDREDS of
    fish that are actually rocks and boulders? 
    
    Gee, wonder how many stories about the gigantic togue/salmon that got
    away are based on encounters with residual granite boulders....
    
    
    John H-C

John I am not an expert on deep water trolling but have done some
in my days.  Lots of lures get stuck when people don't have sonars and
we come up on spots on quabin that came up so fast we could not reel 
the down rigger up fast enough :^(  

As to the topic, I think all the units on the market now can tell if an
object is attached to the bottom like a rock or pile of rocks.  WHat
they can't do is tell you that that pixel is a fish sitting on the 
bottom.

I have 3 units on my boat.  All lowrance's.  First is a high speed flash.
It is used the most of all my units.  Always on when the big motor is going.
It is mainly a sonar.  It flashs a line for echos between the top and
the bottom.  The high speed means I can be going 60 mph and it keeps up with me.
Of course if the bottom goes form 100 to 2 you will hit before  you can 
slow down.

The second is a paper x-16 unit.   This is the industry standard.  every thing
off the bottom and the botton will light place a mark on the paper.  From
thermalclyines (sp) to the lure I am jigging off the bottom.

The third is a lowrance x-5 it is a liquid crystal graph.   I use that when
I am moving along and casting. (just because the other two are on the console)
It gives me water temp and all those other things like boats speed and distance
traveled if I had the right parts.   It is suppose to be a great deep
water unit.  I have only used it in 90'.  They chnaged it to the x-50 now
with a bluish screen that you not suppose to have a problem seeing 
with polirized glass.

Good luck on finding your new unit.  Hay lowrance makes a new unit with a 
built in loran as well.  Also you might find a better price from a mail
order bass fishing place than a boat place.
Bob

    John, Bob is correct. On Winni, the 'walls' come up too fast to clear
    lines on a down rigger. I know.. On the big O -- generally -- the
    bottom is very consistant and changes very gradually..  
    After fishing Winni a while, you get to understand the lake, and
    do things BEFORE whatever depth tool your using tells you your
    in trouble.

    Yeah Fish Finder that's a catchy phase.  I use mine most of the time
    just to tell me what's on the bottom.  I believe the electronics in
    some of the better units do have the ability to determind the
    difference in densities of anything in the cone of vision, meaning if
    your locked onto the bottom anything between the bottom and surface
    has the potentail to be flagged as a fish.
    
    To be honest I've yet to bag a limit of fish when I've seen them
    marking all over the place in deeper water.  But If I'm cruising around
    checking an area for potential and don't see anything, I usally won't 
    waste anytime checking it out and will wait untill I set fish marking.
    Not to get off the subject, but, I rely more on Polarized Glasses and
    using a heavy jig to either see or feel what's down there whenever I
    have any doubts.
    
    But I wouldn't want to be out on a body of water without one. 
    Especially if there's those big rock headed bass that like to eat lower
    units for breakfast.
    
    						Madd Matt
    

IMHO and FWIW:

I've read alot of notes in here about what a fishfinder is and is not.  The
real advantange of having one of these units is that they give people who fish
a given lake all the time and those who are on the lake for the first time more
equal knowledge of where the fish MIGHT be found.

Someone who fishes the same lake all the time will learn what the bottom is
like by trial an error (snags, depth, success, etc.) and that person will
return to the same place by using the land sightings and triangulation. They
will also learn where the rocks are by counting the dings in their prop.

Someone who is on this lake for the first time will be at a significant
disadvantage because he/she has no quick way of knowing what the bottom looks
like, where likely fish holding spots are during the course on one or two days
fishing.   They will also learn where the rocks are by counting the dings in
their prop. 

All the sonar does is give the fisherman/boater a view of what's under the
water, what does the bottom look like.  A fisherman who knows a lake well will
be able to more accurately position himself/herself than they could from
land sightings, and the new guy on the lake should be able to find the same
spot in a shorter amount of time (like within a few hours [maybe]).  People
with sonar may learn where the rocks are by watching the instrument rather than
by the sound of crunching aluminum or SS.


Al

    Do any of the reader(s) have information on the Uniden series
    of paper graphs?
    
    I, for one, never heard of them before, but my fishin' buddy just
    got one.  I'm wondering if they're a quality part, etc?
    
    thanks for any information,
    
    Dick
    
    

    
    	the boat shows are happening .. and the electronics are
    	being shown even if they aren't available yet.  What's new ???
    	I mean REALLY  N E W  ???	
    
    	The Marinetek Seadragon 3d imaging unit isn't visible
    	to me (I gave up on talking to them ... software 
    	probs or waiting for phased array transducers to 
    	catch up ... but I want that unit ... oh well).
    
    	The next best thing for my application (in my price
    	range) might be the Interphase Matrix scanning sonar.
    	fore and aft scanning std, port to starboard option,
    	"side scan" option.  they responded to my request
    	for info (like Marinetek did the first 2 times) 
    	with "boat shows first ..." and forwarded my 
    	question of data outputs and a demo video to engineering
    	and marketing .. or so they said.  No magic in their
    	unit, but the 12� scan sections in 5 second full screen 
    	paints is closer to whats there.  I figure their "side scan"
    	units are semi useless since they are too close to the surface
    	and will pick up as much surface clutter as fish.  
    	
    	Besides, I'm one of those parasitic divers who check out
    	the fishing notesfile for ideas and experience.   (Though
    	I buy a license each year and dip a line now and then).
    	My mud finder is fine for fishing ... I wanna know more
    	about whats down there, even beneath the fishies ;-) 
    
    	I expect I'll spring for a unit in the may/june timeframe if 
    	it looks real ... but ... if anyone gets to see a unit
    	or play with one ... it'd be nice to hear what you think.
    	The Hummingbird 3-d isn't what I'm looking for.  3-d imaging
    	is, but maybe 1992 will put me into 2-d scanning.
    
    	I'm slowly learning how sonar REALLY works (spent the weekend reading 
    	a Klein	side-scan record interpretation manual) and now $$$ is the 
    	problem. I think I understand enough to be dangerous.	
    
    		any comments ???????

    Wow, it's been longer than I realized since I've been in this notes
    file - you moved!
    
    Anyway... my wife told me she wants to buy me a fish-finder as a
    graduation gift this summer (I'm finally finishing up my undergrad 
    degree after years of fits and starts and six different schools), 
    and I want to get a decent unit, not one that after one season I'll
    discover that if we'd only spent $50 more then I'd have one that's
    really useful. But, if course, I don't want to drop $500 on a souped-up
    unit with more bells and whistles than I'll ever need or use.
    
    I fish primarily from a trolling-motor powered Crawdad, for bass, 
    sunfish/crappies, and occasionally trout (about once a year). I fish
    local ponds and rocky NH type lakes like Winni and Waukeewan.
    
    I've looked at the Humminbird Platinum ID and some of the newer 
    Eagle models, and hope that I can get a useful unit for around $200.
    
    Suggestions from anyone with fish-finder experience would be greatly
    appreciated!
    
    Oh yeah, what about those 3D models, are they just gimmicks or are 
    they a major breakthrough?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Ed

    I'm also looking for a fishfinder in the $200 range.  I drift fish
    mostly in shallow water 8-40 feet.  I recently saw in Cabella's (sp)
    catalog that Egal now has a 3D Unit at $290.  Although I realy don't
    want to spend that much would it be worth it in the long run.
    
    Thanks 
    Rick
    

    Ed
    
    Having just been through the process your going through and for a Fish
    Finder for a Crawdad no less, what I found out after asking a lot of
    questions talking to reps, people with fishfinders etc.  The model I
    just ordered is the Eagle Fish Finder Magna II.  The Eagle brand is a
    super twist, dry nitrogen filled (prevents fogging) has greyline to
    help distguish bottom structure.  It has a good pixel count 100
    vertical pixels and 275 watts of power.  The next model up is the Ultra
    which has 600 watts and 128 pixels.  The Magma runs $179 and the Ultra
    259.  I asked the Eagle rep what he recommended he said for around here
    with a small boat where the bulk of my fishing will be under 30 ft the
    Magma will do just fine. Also he said when you get your unit just send
    in the transducer and they will send back a trolling motor one.  I
    couldn't find a whole lot of folks with the Hummingbird Platinum so I
    can't help you there, in fact thats what swung me over to the eagle, lots
    of folks have those units.
         
    Brian

    Ed, I think Brian's right, but if you're doing a lot of summer trout
    and salmon fishing, you might want to consider a unit that works
    effectively at lower depths. Doesn't sound like you'll be using any
    kind of downriggers, but maybe 60' is a better cut-off point for fish
    finder functionality (say that fast 3 times...).
    
    --The Bandit

 I've been considering a portable fishfinder for the canoe (and for use when 
icefishing).

 I would want a unit capable of pentrating to about 160 feet reliably (the 
deepest part of most any lake I care to fish) though I imagine that 90% of
the use would be in 100 feet or less.

 Here's a list of requirements:

 o enough power to reach bottom of the deepest lakes in NH

 o high frequency transducer, with a modest cone

 o sufficient pixel density to give a good picture

 o waterproof

 o easily portable; preferably with its own case.

 o a rechargeable battery unit would be a real swell thing too!

 o I don't want it to show me pictures of little fishies: I want to
see regular images.

 o affordable (maybe this belongs at the top of the list)

 Anybody know if there are any units which fit the bill?

 The Doctah

    RE: .17
    
    	I think Eagle makes the Ultra in a portable.  If you don't want the
    fishies you just turn off the fish ID feature.  It even has enough
    power so you could go over to Sebago where here's some DEEP water....
    	I've got a Magna that shows me bottom OK at 80+ ft., not sure how
    well it works at greater depth.
    	I've never used it for icefishing, not sure how well LCDs work in
    the real cold.
    					B.C.

>    Ed, I think Brian's right, but if you're doing a lot of summer trout
>    and salmon fishing, you might want to consider a unit that works
>    effectively at lower depths. Doesn't sound like you'll be using any
>    kind of downriggers, but maybe 60' is a better cut-off point for fish
>    finder functionality (say that fast 3 times...).
    
    Bandit,
    
    I do make the trek to Walden Pond once or twice a year - though I've
    yet to catch *anything* there (So why do you keep going? I dunno!), 
    and the pond is 90' deep at one point! 
    
    Although I can't imagine why I'd *need* to see down 90', I'd still like
    to be able to. Still, most of my fishing is at summer bass depths -
    seldom more than 40' (How do you know? You don't have a depth finder!
    OK, so I *guess* how deep it is!!)
    
    Anyhow, the best thing I've heard yet is that the Eagle's seem to be
    the most popular, so it follows that there might be a good reason for
    it. 
    
    Anybody with a Humminbird care to comment?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Ed

    Doctah
    
    My brother was looking at portables for his canoe.  The Eagle rep and
    the Bottom Line rep told him to save his money and get a regular unit
    that attaches to his trolling motor.  That makes it portable enough for
    the canoe.  They said those 6 volt dry cells will cost you a powerful
    lot of money each year.  They said if you fish 8 hour days you'll be using
    alot of those batteries.  In fact the eagle guy says he hooks his
    regular unit right up to the trolling motor battery with no problem. 
    
    Brian

    First - I think ANY unit will see over 100 feet. I dont think they make 
    one that doesn't. They might make one, but not the models your
    looking at. (Bottom line, lowrance, Eagle, etc.)
    Second - Over heard at a dealers show last year. From Larry Nixon - 
    "a Hummingbird cant see a 7 foot shark in 9 feet of water."
    
    I own an eagle ultra plus (I think thats what it is.) for the drivers
    seat and the Hummingbird TC1-HI(?) (the color one) on the trolling
    motor. The Eagle sees stuff the Hummingbird does not. But Im only using
    the Hummingbird to see the drops/structure.
    
    Larry was the only person at the 90 'classic' with an Eagle on the
    Ranger. Told Ray and boys he wouldnt fish unless he could use his
    Eagle. (Everyone gets a Ranger equiped with a Hummingbird)
    
    Boomer

    
    	for "shallow" water and higher resolution, go with the 
    	higher freq 200KHz units.  50KHz units will read deeper and 
    	I've read they should NOT be used in depths of 25 ft or less.
    
    	shallow is to 200'  (they'll read deeper)
    
    	the current Hummingbird 3-d finders are ok to get a 
    	feel for the overall bottom contour etc, but they 
    	still paint "history" and the reading will compress
    	the reality of the bottom contour if your go fast and
    	expand the bottom if you go slow.  
    
    	Anyone interested in the Humingbird 3-D should consider 
    	ordering the video to preview ($5 I think ... I got mine when 
    	they first came out .. the video that is ...)
    	
    	since it doesn't look like Marinetek is gonna make it 
    	with the 3-D imaging unit soon (they no longer list
    	it as "coming soon") I expect I'm gonna invest in 
    	the Interphase scanning sonar ($579 in Gander Mtn)
    	even though it's only a 2-D display.
    	
    	Eagle, as many have replied has a good following and
    	they have god resolution (high pixel) displays for 
    	good prices.  
    
        What I have now is a Ray Jeff LCD-500 that had the best 
        pixel resolution then (bleeding edge serial # 43) and a Furuno
     	FE-4000 chart recorder.  The Ray Jeff never tracked bottom when
    	under any decent speed (though that could be transducer 
    	installation by yours truely).  The Furuno was able to mark 
    	small aluminum items that used to be a Cessna sitting on a flat 
    	mud bottom in 80ft of water which pretty much impressed me.  We've
    	also used the chart unit to find wooden hulls of wrecks (paints 
    	a good strong spike) that the LCD doesn't make very visible.  The
    	LCD seems to paint reality of the contour for the wood.  Both
    	seem to paint fish fine mid water, doesn't help me reel the
    	suckers in though ;-)
    	
    				- Ed	

    This sort of relates to fishing electronics so I'll put it here. 
    Moderator, move this if appropriate.  Thanks.
    
    I'm interested in getting something that will give accurate trolling
    speeds.  I know you can buy options for depthfinders that do this, but
    first you gotta have that type of finder.  I don't and don't want to
    invest (yet) in a new finder with this capability.  I noticed something
    in a Gander Mtn. catalog that reads from 0 to 12 mph with 2/10s
    increments (needle and dial).  I couldn't find the brand name.  Price
    was $79.95.  I believe it had a small paddle wheel/sender unit with 20'
    of cable.  The guage is a dial that fits in the dash.
    
    I haven't seen anything similar in Basspro or Cabela's.  Are there
    others out there?  Seems like there ought to be a need, or are they all
    accessories for fish/depth finders?  I'd really like something that
    reads out digitally.  I've seen these on sailboats, but I'm sure that
    automatically doubles the price.
    
    Any advice?  Sources?  Thanks.  Pete
    

    
       you said that you found one in gander mtn. for $79.95,  for 30 more
    $$$ you should look for an older eagle, fish ID plus, or some of the
    other older units.
    
         My advise would be look around at the dealers that do marine
    instalations or repair's. for the amount of money you are gonna spend
    for just a speedometer you may be better off trying to find a used fish 
    finder.
    
         JMHO                                                  Lee
    

      There is something on the market called Trollex which is I think
    under $10.00 that basically a dial which can be mounted on either
    side of the boat which has a piece of mono apprx. 3ft. tied to a
    pyramid weight which dangles into the water maybe a foot deep. The
    idea is not necessarily mph but will allow you to troll at the same
    speed consistantly. Spag's may even carry them.
    
    Kevin

    I just bought a Eagle, Magna II fish finder and would like some info on 
    installing the transducer.  I have a 20 foot, fiberglass deep V boat and was
    wondering about positioning, attaching and drilling holes.  Not having
    done this before any advise would be appreciated.  I know it has to be
    done but the thought of taking a drill and putting multiple holes in
    the transom of my boat is keeping me awake at night.
    
    Rick 

 Make sure you put it on a flat part of the hull (like in between chines)
so there is little or no turbulence created by the placement. Imagine what the
water will be doing as you travel- you want the minimum turbulence possible.
Therefore, mount the transducer flush with the hull in a flat spot and you
should be ok. Doesn't the unit come with these kinds of directions?

    The unit did come with some info and it did cover your point.  I am
    really concerned with the attachment.  

    I INSTALLED ONE BY EPOXYING IT TO THE HULL INSIDE THE BOAT. IN THE
    CENTERLINE IF POSSIBLE ABOUT 2 FEET FROM THE TRANSOM. USE GOOD EPOXY
    AND MAKE SURE THERE ARE NO BUBBLES IN IT.
    IT WORKS FINE.

    With a Fiberglas boat you can glue it to the hull (inside). No?
    Your manual should cover that.

    Rich

    I have been told you will lose 10-20% sensativity by shooting it
    through the inside of the hull, is this true.   Also Eagle has an exchange
    program where you mail your old transduce in and they send you a different
    one for, some nominal charge.  I mention this because Eagle sells a 
    shoot-through the hull transducer, wouldn't this be better than using the
    external transum mount.    
    
    Rick
    

    I  epoxied one to the glass on my boat. works fine...
    
    same thing, exchange one xducer for another.
    
    the  other  feature, no mung gets on it..
    
    JIm.

	Purchased a used boat having an APELCO XCD 240 fishfinder.  I need
	an owner's manual for it.  Does anyone have a number I could call 
	for customer service?


thanks, 
jon 

    Talked to dealer yesterday and he said there is basicly no difference
    between the the transom mounted transducer and the shoot-through the
    hull.  The difference is just the shape with the shoot-through the hull
    beinng flatter therefore easier to position flat on the inside of the
    hull.  Another thing he told me was people are using electrical puddy
    to attach it.  This is nice because it stays soft for removal and
    readjustment.  Anybody hear of this or done it.
    
    Rick
      

    
    re .-2  Apelco Customer Service
            800-247-7681
    
    
    /Mike
    
    ps ask htem were my $#^$^ loran is! 

    I have an APELCO LD 350 fishfinder.  It has both auto and manual modes
    for gain and range.  For 'average' conditions..... say 20-60 feet of
    water is one better off to leave the fishfinder in autogain or is one
    better off using manual gain?  I ask because if I turn the gain up
    beyond the autosetpoint it 'sees fish' which, I suspect arent' really
    there.  When crusing a fresh water lake last night the fish finder
    saw one fish the entire evening when in autogain.  In manual it 'saw'
    all sorts of fish when I turned the gain up.  What do I believe?
    I suspect autogain is the way to go. 
    
    Also. How is this fishfinder at BOTTOM resolution compared to other
    fish finders?  Is it average, worse than average, better than average
    or what?  I have no comparison because this is the only one I have
    ever had.  I am interested in picking out rocks, weeds, wrecks, and
    fish.
    
    Jeff

    
    
              Question: Can a transducer be damaged by shock. My reason for
    asking is this: Early in the season my transducer came off the transom
    and was wildly slapping back and fourth against it. Now, it works up to
    about 20 feet and then the reading goes haywire...i.e. 80ft-113ft-46ft.
    The speedo also wasn't working but the paddle wheel seemed fine.
              Figuring the unit was defective, I sent it back to Humminbird
    and $63 and some change, it is now back in the boat. The speedo works 
    again but the depth is still all over the place. It is constantly
    changing depth ranges even while sitting at the dock. It seems to have
    lost it's sensitivity because if I turn up the sensitivity all the way
    I can get some accurate picture of the bottom. I have to figure that
    they DID check it out completely and that the problem is in the
    transducer. It does look OK and doesn't appear to be damaged.
    
             Any thoughts, opinions etc.
    
                                   Jeff (Captain)
                                   Team Starcraft

    
    
       Jeff,
    
     I would have to say its the transducer, so that means its the right
    time to replace the whole set up with a good crt unit , right? 
    
       Those transducers are tough but flappping against the transom is a 
    bit too much. 
    
    
                                                 Lee
    

    Thanks....but, $40 vs. hundreds? Or, let me guess, YOU just happen to
    have one for sale :^)  Seriously, I'll pick up a new transducer, plug
    it in and see what happens. If it works I'll keep it, if not I will
    be able to return it and send Humminbird a nasty-gram. Thanks again...
    
                                      Jeff (Captain)
                                      Team Starcraft

    Jeff,
    
    I have seen similiar problems with my hummingbird, and it turned out
    to be a poor power connection to the battery. I also saw it again 
    when my battery was on its last leg (4yrs) and the voltage dropped 
    to low levels. A trolling motor, when run, will make the problem 
    even worse if its connected to the same battery. I'd check your 
    connections first before buying a new transducer.
    
    Shawn 

    Shawn, I'll try running the power lead directly to the battery +.
    
    It makes sense too, low power = low sensitivity. 
    
                                  Jeff (Captain)
                                  Team Starcraft

    Jeff - I put mine on my trolling motor - so I went out and bought 
    the 'puck' for that. If you still are having problems - I can lend
    you the transom unit to see if that can isolate the problem.
    I live in MK NH and work in Nashua. Pretty sure its the same unit.
    Boomer
    

    I have a Hummingbird Platinum ID 600 on my 16' shallow bottom boat.
    (Similar hull design to a bass boat.) This is my second season with the
    unit.  Last season it worked fine at slow speeds, but at anything over
    10mph or so, I got crazy depth readings and a zillion fish on the
    screen.  Hummingbird folks said it was water turbulence and I would
    have to live with it.
    
    This year I installed a Doel Fin which has the effect of lifting
    transom out of the water a little more which caused the fish finder to
    be pretty useless at any speed over a few mph.  Hummingnbird suggested
    I reposition the transducer to a deeper part of the hull. I now have
    the transducer on the very bottom of the boat (and three more holes in
    my transom)  and have seen no improvements.  If anything it is worse 
    because of the turbulence caused by the prop and engine.
    
    Wondering if anyone can diagnose, does this sound like bad location,
    bad transducer, or bad advice from Hummingbird.  
    
    Appreciate any input.

    I didn't want to drill any holes in my Whaler below the water-line due
    to some anal compulsive instinct I guess.  I was hunting around for
    pieces that I could put together to engineer an adjustable support for
    my transducer that connects above the waterline, when I stumbled upon a
    product designed to do exactly that.  It is a long aluminum tube that
    tapers to a flat aluminum surface with screw holes for the transducer. 
    You mount the transducer on the bottom.  The top of the tube has some
    hardware that locks the tube into an oarlock type thing mounted to the
    top of the transom.  I found the arrangement, (with minor
    modifications) gave me great flexibility in determining where to
    position the transducer and now even with everything drilled and set I
    can adjust the depth of the transducer with a twist of the wrist.  The
    arrangement works well at planing speeds and trolling speeds.

I had similar turbulance problems with my Hummingbird 4000 with the 
transducer mounted on the stern.  I tried to be carefull to position the 
puck between the aluminum lift stakes to minimize turbulance off the rivets.
I also mounted the puck such that the bottom surface of the puck was about 
1/4"-1/2" below the hull, as per the instructions.

The LCR would maintain a bottom reading up to about 3/4 throttle.  Since all 
I have is a 15' boat w/25hp, I suspect that speed was about 20-22 mph.  At 
full speed, I would get wild 'n crazy reading.

After a lot of experimentation, I found that by angling the puck down 
slightly more such that it was shooting more under the hull of the boat, it 
would track the bottom even at top speed.  The only possible trade-off I can 
see is that I may be getting slightly false depth readings as the unit is 
reading at more of an angle.

Try it...it worked for me.

Joe

    To all concerned, my problem is solved, it was my transducer. A fellow
    noter we call Jack on land and Boomer at sea provided me with a trans-
    ducer that he didn't use due to a different installation. I picked it
    up Saturday and by Saturday night it was installed on Team Starcraft. 
    Works just like new, at all speeds, thanks Boomer!
    
                                         Jeff (Captain) 
                                         Team Starcraft

    I am trying to mount my Hummingbird's transom-mount transducer on the 
    fiberglass transom of my '64 Whaler.   I've tried different length
    screws but they won't tighten up and eventually just pull out.  How do
    others handle this problem??
    
    I thought of maybe cutting a small square hole and fiberglassing in a
    piece of wood to mount the transducer to.   Before I take the Sawzall
    to my transom, does anyone have a better idea?
    
    Thanks for any advice,
    
    -Stevie D

    
    
       Steve,
     
           can you get into the area below the floor where you are trying
    to mount the transducer? if so use a bolt and nut.
    
          if not there should be a stringer and transom board to be able to
    put the srew's into. try tapping lightly with a small hammer till you
    hear a different tone and try there.
    
                                                     Lee
    

    RE: .47
    	I also answered this in Boating.  You can't through bolt low in the
    transom of a Whaler because it's all foam filled.  All a longer screw
    will do is go further into the foam and not bite on anything.  I have
    2 transducers on my 15ft. Whaler, one for depth and one for speed/temp.
    I mounted them per the directions/hardware that came with my Eagle LCD
    except that I drilled the holes a little tight (minor diameter of the
    screws) siliconed the holes and screwed them in tight.  They hold nice
    and solid, I've had zero trouble, even at 50+ MPH.
    	I'd try a slightly larger (if possible) screw and maybe even epoxy
    it in if you have to.
    	Or, call Boston Whaler at 617-871-1400 and ask for customer
    service.  They were very good about helping with my questions about
    putting a bow mount electric on my boat.
    
    					B.C.

Another suggestion might be to use an expanding Molly screw, much as you 
would for sheetrock walls.  Use liberal amounts of silicone sealant when 
inserting the Molly and the mounting screw.  I's also suggest trying to 
replace the standard screw with either aluminum or stainless steel to 
prevent rust and corrosion.

-HSJ-

I pre-drilled my Montauk transom with a drill about the same size as the
shaft of the screws I used (stainless steel pan head sheet metal, about
#8 x 1"). I coated the screw threads with silicone bathtub calk before I
screwed them in. The transducer and speedometer pitot that I mounted that
way are still on the boat, twelve years later. 

I must admit that I winced when some of the gelcoat chipped as I was
screwing the screws in, but I wanted the chart recorder and speedo to
work, so in they went.

The only thing I can think of is that you're drilling a pilot hole that's
too big. Go to a larger screw.

Art

    
    
     > I must admit that I winced when some of the gelcoat chipped.
    
        Here is a hint to help keep gelcoat from chipping, take a drill bit
    that is 1/8" bigger than the hole you drilled and place it in a
    reversable drill, put the drill in reverse and counter sink the hole
    slightly, this will keep the gelcoat from cracking away.
    
                                                         Lee
     

Something else that might work to prevent the gelcoat from chipping is to 
put a piece of masking tape over the area to be drilled, mark the location, 
then drill the hole.  I use this same technique when cutting formica or 
vinyl countertop material on my table saw.  Without the tape, it chips all 
over the place along the saw cut.

Joe

    	That's kind of what I did, except that I used a small hand drill
    so I could drill it REAL slow.
    	The ones that really made me nervous were the #14 Stainless lag
    screws that I used to mount the electric...  Drill a little too far and
    you're through the bottom of the hull up near the gunwale...
    
    						B.C.

    
    B.C. did I ever say what a nice job you did..?
     
                                                  must have
                                                     Kiv

    
    When I mount something to my fiberglass boat I use Wellnuts. They are
    perfect for use when you can't access the opposite side you're drilling
    into. They work on the same principal as an anchor that is used in 
    sheetrock...sort of. 
    
    They come in all different sizes. I used them to mount my downriggers.
    A wellnut is put in a predrilled hole. A flange on the wellnut keeps it
    from falling through the hole. A wellnut is soft rubber with a threaded
    metal insert at the bottom. After the wellnut is placed in a
    pre-drilled hole you simply place whatever you are mounting over it and
    put the screw in, and tighten it down. When you tighten the screw, the 
    metal insert in the wellnut is compressed and pulled upward thus
    expanding the wellnut itself.
    
    You end up with a cushioned, waterproof seal that will remain rock
    solid. 
    
                                     Jeff (Captain) 
                                     Team Starcraft

    Jeff, 
    
    I think I'll give the Wellnuts a try.  Someone else suggested using the
    plastic Molly fasteners but I thought they might not be strong enough.
    
    Anything to not have to mess with that horribly drippy epoxy!!
    
    -Stevie D

    I purchased/refurbed my first boat this summer, a 17.6' grady white
    (now known as "SumFun").  I wanted a depth sounder, and had some
    experience with digital depth sounders on sailboats.  I was getting
    pretty tight on funds and couldn't afford the $250-350 price tag for
    a depth sounder.  While I was cruising through Bliss marine, they
    had an "unadvertised" special on a Searanger ID600 fishfinder ($119)
    so I picked one up.  I later noticed that it had the exact same layout
    and display as another popular brand (either eagle or hummingbird)
    ID400, in fact, the transducer is a Hummingbird.  
    
    Does anyone have any info on this unit?  So far I think it has worked
    O.K. except for a few problems.  When I'm at high speed (anywhere from
    20-30mph) I get a solid line of "fish" halfway up the display.  When 
    I check the charts for the area I'm in, this line of fish is actually
    the bottom, with the "displayed" bottom being twice what the depth 
    really is...
    
    I haven't done any adjustments on the transducer height, as this quirk
    has not been a real hinderance (once I figured out what was going
    on...).  Anyway...the popular brand sells for around $150-175, and
    appears to be the same exact unit.  The boxes are even the same with
    the exception of the "brand" name on the box.  
    
    There have been many times when we have seen multiple fish on the 
    finder, and haven't gotten a single hit, but so far we can say that
    we have never gotten a hit when the finder was blank.  It's main use
    is more for position verification against charts and bottom contour
    i.d., but i'd love to take a dive sometime to see what this thing
    is really picking up when it sees all these fish from time to time.
    
    Jim (still striperless...)
    

Jim,

I'm not familiar with that model, but judging from what you said was being
displayed, it appears that the unit's sensitivity may be adjusted too high.

Typically, most depth finders, both flashers as well as LCRs, will indicate
a "second" bottom if the sensitivity is too high.  This is the result of the
transducer picking up the signal a second time, having reflected off the 
surface and back down to the bottom and back again (hence a second bottom at 
twice the actual depth).

In some regards, that is OK as that means the sensitivity is at a point 
where any sizeable fish will appear on the display.  Too little sensitivity 
will result in inaccurate bottom readings, missed stucture and definitely 
missed fish.  Of course, most fresh water fisherman use the LCR to 
understand the bottom structure and not to necessarily locate fish.  In my 
opinion, using a LCR or flasher to locate fish (or bait fish) is not 
worthwhile unless fishing in deeper water where the area of the cone 
actually covers a larger, more meaningful area.  For example, in 20' of 
water, a 20 degree cone is only scanning an area of about 5-6' in diameter, 
whereas in 100' you're looking at an area of about 25-30'.

Another point to consider too is engine noise.  If the LCR is powered off 
the same battery as the main engine battery, you may be picking up some 
interference from the alternator/generator.  I know this has been discussed 
before in another topic, so I'd suggest looking there for some advice.

Enjoy!

-Joe-

    Thanks for the info...I wondered why the sensitivity was adjustable,
    (why would someone want the finder to be LESS sensitive???) but your
    info cleared that up.  As regards the noise for the engine, I was 
    aware of this problem from working with Loran units on sailboats.  I
    have had "multiple" fish show up while anchored in 15 ft of water.
    The bottom was barely visible, but couldn't see any fish at all.  
    Could this be the sensitivity problem too?  I also seem to pick up
    alot of fish very close to the surface....
    
    
    Jim
    

If you were in 15' of water, it's highly unlikely that you saw many 
fish unless it was a school.  Remember the diameter of the cone is pretty
small at that depth.

If the bottom is barely registering (at any depth), then the sensitivity is
way too low.  There's no way you'll record any fish if you aren't displaying
the bottom (unless a whale cruises under the boat!).

Picking up lots of fish on the surface is symtematic of a condition called
surface clutter or noise.  It is usually caused by wave action and multiple
reflections.  My Eagle LCR has adjustments to increase/decrease the filtering
of this type of noise.  You may have a similar adjustment...check the manual.

Joe

    I have a Sea Ranger fishfinder I found out that it was made by IMPULSE.
    I saw my finder at the Impulse booth at the Fishing and Outdoor expo.
    The only thing that was different was the faceplate. I talked to one of
    the Reps at the show and he told me that they made them for BLISS.
    

 At the very surface, there is an area that looks like marks that is 
attributable to the fact that sonars use a single transducer for both 
transmitting and receiving. During the short period of time that the transducer
is transmitting, it quite obviously cannot also be "listening" at the
same time. It marks this period (which corresponds to the very surface)
as if it were receiving a strong signal.) This is why you see marks right at
the surface.

    My APELCO XD 350 sees fish one in a while on auto gain.  When I put
    it into manual gain and turn the gain up a bit WITHOUT seeing a
    second bottom it often indicates fish.  Any idea of whether the
    fish it sees with the gain up are really there?
    
    Jeff

Jeff

The auto mode on most LCRs set their gain based on where the bottom is, 
however, the gain is rarely automatically set high enough to detect smaller 
objects such as fish.   Unless I am out trolling for salmon or trout, I'll 
usually leave the gain on auto as all I'm interested in is the bottom 
contour and structure.  I'll increase the gain to detect fish and the depth 
they're at when trolling.

In answer to your question... YES, the LCR is displaying fish (or weeds or 
schools of bait) with the gain turned up.

BTW...some LCRs are able to detect thermoclines depending on the amount of 
temperature difference when passing thru it.  Thermoclines will read as a 
thin line.

Joe

    Thanks Joe thats good info to have.  I bought the brand/model I did 
    because others told me it was good at bottom profiles which was my
    primary need in a fishfinder.  I use it mostly to avoid hitting the
    bottom and secondarily as a fishfinder.  If I turn the gain up all
    the way the screen gets covered with 'fish' so that makes me 
    suspicious if any are there.
    
    My introduction to the Fishing Notesfile has been in that turtle
    string and I suspect I come across as a super environmentalist.
    Maybe I am one.  When fishing I release everthing I catch except
    fish I am SURE will be eaten and not wasted.  So I do kill aquatic
    creatures too.  I like to think its with 'respect' in that there is
    a minimum of waste and I am aware that the creature has given its 
    life in the pursuit of my hobby.  Maybe that awareness makes me
    one of 'the bad guys' too.
    
    Tx. for the fishfinder info.
    
    Jeff
    

Jeff,

re: "If I turn the gain up all the way the screen gets covered with 'fish' 
     so that makes me suspicious if any are there."

Depending upon the LCR and the kind of filtering that is in the system, it's 
entirely possible that you may be picking up "noise" or "clutter."  Single 
fish of any size are generally depicted as a blob, a mark or an arch on the 
screen, and that depends upon pixel resolution of the LCR.

My old Hummingbird 4000 displays a fish, depending on size, with blocks, 

		    [][]
		     []

whereas my Eagle 6000, which has much higher resolution (i.e. more pixels 
per sq. in.), more power and sensitivity, will display the same fish as an 
arch, or portion of an arch (depending where in the cone the fish is 
located).

		     ___
		    /   \     

In fact, with the 6000, I've seen schools of baitfish with individual 
marks of larger fish trailing just above or below the school.  No way my 
4000 could do that.

On my Hummingbird 4000, I will get lot's of marks on the screen if I 
increase the sensitivity too much, and I know they're not fish.  My Eagle 
has two adjustable filters, Surface Clarity and Discrimination, that can 
help to minimize these false readings.

Hope this helps.

Joe

    I expect my APELCO 350 cannot handle the higher resolution at $ 220
    bucks price.
    
    Tx. Jeff

    re:.66
    
    My "el-cheapo" Searanger has the audacity to display "marks" as FISH.
    
    little fish swimming accross the screen at varying depths...
    
    
    Jim

    I have an Apelco XCD something or other.  Turning on "fish symbol" mode
    would lead you to believe that this $189 unit is somehow able to tell
    the fish from other random echoes.   On my unit if you go to manual
    gain and turn it up all the way a mere ripple in the water will show up
    as a screenful of fish.   I'm not convinced this unit is really doing
    anything for me.
    

    Not sure mine is either, but I do get quite a kick out of the little 
    fish...at least at the BEGINNING of a trip...after a couple of hours
    with no strikes and watching little fish go by on the screen it does
    get a little nerve racking...
    
    
    	Jim

    re. 70 I too have an APELCO XD unit.  With the gain all the way up 
    'there are fish all over the place'.  It does show bottom profiles
    though, and depth.  
    
    Jeff

    Does anybody have any experience with the relatively new EAGLE side
    scan (optional) sonar?  How well does it work, is it worth the money?
    
    I am seeing them in boating catalogs.
    
    Jeff

    I bought it but turned it back in.  The images from the side scan were
    not clear, in the lakes I fish there are lots of floating weed beds and
    almost always they look like fish on the screen.  Ken Pappas loves the
    thing and swears by it, me I just wanted my $50 back.
    
    Buy it at Service Merchandize and use it for 30 days if you don't like
    it just return it, but be sure to keep all the boxes if it isn't in the
    same packaging they won't take it back.
    
    Brian

    Thanks for the hints on the EAGLE Jim.  
    
    Jeff

    
    I'll guess about 12 years ago there was a side scan for sale, don't
    recall the mfg. but it would send out signals from the transducer
    to give about 20 (guess) pieces of pie and each piece would update
    in that direction when another scan was taken. Much like radar.
    It would hold each scan for viewing until the signal recieved a 
    new batch of data.  That one didn't last long either.  You couldn't
    tell what depth things were at with it. Would show stuff suspended
    or comming off the bottom. To find out how deep it was you had to
    move on top of whatever. It did give the distance from you tho'.
    
    Fred

    So the side scan is used by lowering a transducer over the side on a
    cable?  Could hardly use it underway then.  The ad in Goldberg Marine
    sure makes it look like a new toy I would want.  Might make sense
    ice fishing since one does less moving around and sitting in one
    spot, with side scan  it could be interesting seeing what moves into its
    field. 
    
    Jeff

    The side scan for the eagle pack comes with a setup that allows you to
    mount it and the normal transducer off your trolling motor so you can
    do a full 360.  I didn't like that set up because when you raise your
    trolling motor to power out you loose the transducer.  

    How can it side scan at depth unless the transducer is lowered to the
    depth?
    
    Jeff

    the side does not give you depth readings only a side view of whats out
    there.  In fact the transducer has to have an angle 20 deg down so that
    you don't pick up reflections off the surface.  With all the vegatation
    I fish all I got were solid readings everywhere I faced.
    
    Brian

    Brian, did you test it extensively enough to get a real idea of its
    capabilites, or could inexperience in operating the side scan have
    been a factor in your poor results?  I find it hard to believe they
    could sell something as ineffective as you found.  Didn't you say
    someone else had used the same model side scan with good results?
    What did they do differently?
    
    Jeff

    Jeff
    
    Like I said go talk to Ken Pappas.  Its like anything you buy out
    there.  For every person swearing by it you'll find an equal number who
    hate it, right?  I did use it solid every weekend for 30 days 8 hours a
    shot.  In the end I found very little use for it.  Its like believeing
    in the fish symbol on the screen.  Do you beleive every one of those is
    a fish or just floating junk with enough mass for the screen to say
    fish?  Around here here is so much junk in the water how accurate is
    the thing?
    
    What inexperience is there?  You strap the unit on your trolling motor
    at a prescribed angle, you turn on the unit, hit side scan on the menu
    and it tracks.  No rocket science in this.  You turn your trolling
    motor to the direction you want scanned and read the screen.  Its that
    straight forward.
    
    
    Brian
                       

    Hope I am not catching a note of indignation Brian.  I do not mean to 
    insult your intellegence.  Ok, a months use.  Thats plenty to get a
    real feel for the unit.  When using a fishfinder as you know there 
    is plenty of interpretation to it.  i.e. is that a fish, how high to
    set the gain, what scale to use, when to use zoom, are those flecks
    on the screen noise or real objects, is it a soft or hard bottom,
    etc  etc.  So I would expect that side scan has similiar problems.
    I suppose that for hunting for wrecks it could be more useful than
    for fish finding.
    
    Jeff

    So, Jeff, what does a diver look like on a fishfinder?
    <g>

    I don't know John.  When I took you out last Fall you guys didn't
    swim under the boat.  But I imagine you would show up as a big fish!
    
    Jeff

    
    	divers are very BIG fish
    
    	I may be wrong ... but since most biologicals are made mostly
    	of water, the return on sonar is via the air space in the 
    	bladder (for fish) and the lungs and tank for divers.  
    	
    	Do sharks and other non-air bladder fish show up under sonar ?
    	hmmmmm I don't think they reflect siginificantly ... 
    		(maybe just their teeth ??)
    
    	btw : 
    	With sidescan (real $50K+ sidescan) there are wooden wrecks 
    	that are invisible to the sonar because the density of the 
    	wood equals that of the water  (this is from a case study I
    	read not experience)
    
    	also - IMHO manufacturers are not yet there for recreational "sidescan"
    	Real sidescan drops a fish at depth (torpedo shaped towfish) with 
    	transducers mounted on each side looking slightly down and prefers a 
    	diagonal to the target to pick up an image (or more often it's 
    	acoustic shadow) vs a real horizontal shot.  
    
    	Recreational units place the multibeam on the stern and I'll bet
    	the transducers are not the gate today (they were last year). 
    
    	I've played with the Interphase Matrix scanning unit and the resolution
    	didn't meet my expectations or needs or anything else.  Real 
    	dissapointed.
    
    	I believe the technology is there, but a low cost solution in the
    	multi-beam arena plus the software to effectively interpret the
    	data is way too expensive at this time.  Marinetek's 3-d imaging
    	unit never made it to market even after 2 years of "coming soon"
    	which was a real dissapointment to me.  The word they gave me was
    	"software problems".  I haven't played with the	Hummingbird or Eagle 
    	3-D units, which seem neat, but I've seen demo's of real 3-D imaging 
    	units and I want that capability ... but I don't want to pay the price 
    	of course :-) picky picky (you can watch the fish move semi "real-time" 
    	and the bottom looks like a fuzzy photograph of the desert ).  
    
    	Isn't technology great? But why do we have to wait so long to 
    	afford it ?
    
    						- Ed
    	

    I saw a Humingbird 3D on sale for $199, however I am not sure
    if a sonar unit would be any good for the my typical fishing style.
    
    I normally fish in about 10 ft of watter, sometimes 20. I have no idea
    what the cone of the Humingbird is but the EGALES  wide angle  units
    are only 20 deg.  At 20 Deg I would only see about 4 feet at the 10 ft 
    level, or 8 feet at the 20 ft level.
    
    So my question?
    
    1a Would this usefull for finding fish
    1b or is it usefull in plotting the bottom
       or for both at the 10 ft level
    
    2  same question for 20 ft where the cone could be about 8 ft.
    
    
    3  Also is this a good price
    
    4  or would I be better with a Egale with side sonnar 
    
    5  and the last option, the none of the above one,
       should I just forget the idea.
    
    
    thanks john
   
    forgot but the lake is very muddy so that visual observation is
    very hard.
    
    

    Does anyone know the address/phone number for Eagle?  I picked up a
    FishID II but it came without operator's manual and other related 
    documentation.  I would like to call to get a copy of them.
    
    Thanks in advance.....

    Lowrance. Same company.
    
    
    (918) 234-1452

    Anyone have an owners manual for a Lowrance x-15 paper chart or
    Lowrance 2330 flasher I could copy?
    
    -donmac
    
    (ps: i know i can order them, but i figured i'd ask here first)

My wife gave me an Eagle Ultra II for my birthday, and I installed it
last week. 

The 8� side-scan transducer is mounted on the port side of my bow-mounted
trolling motor, and after a great deal of thought I mounted the 22�
"skimmer"(tm) transducer on the transom. This is on a 14�' Sea Nymph
Fishing Machine aluminum boat.

I was afraid of that skimmer transducer, because they do NOT want you to
tighten the pivot point. It just sort of dangles downward, and it seems
as though any forward motion at all would cause it to pivot backward.
Well, we tried it Monday on Lake Potanipo (Brookline, NH) and that
transducer works at any and all speeds that my boat can do (not much,
maybe 20 when I'm alone). I could not only read the bottom, I saw
structure and an occasional fish at speed. If I had elected to mount the
transducer on the bottom of the trolling motor, I'd lose this ability.

The side scan reports an occasional fish. It can look out to 60'. 

The bottom-looker shows much detail, including individual weeds (which
surprised me).

The full-automatic mode is great! It changes gain, range... apparently
all sorts of things, without me ever touching it. And the display is
perfectly visible even from the stern seat.

One nit - too many menus, too much on-screen "help". 

I've had fishfinders for about thirty years (I have an X16 on my big
boat) and I'm very pleased and very impressed with this little rig.

I just thought I'd share this.

Art

One other nit - you can manually program dozens of parameters. But when
you turn it off, everything you set is gone, and it's back to factory
defaults.

Art

    
    	
        In searching for a fish finders I have found all different wattages
        and power rates.  What I would like to know is what is your
    	experiences with maximum depths with what wattages.  I have been
    	looking at the different dual frequency color sounders but the
    	power ratings have varied from about 150 watts rms to over 1000
    	watts rms and they really don't state at what depth the sounder is
    	really going to work at.  All the sounders only state the range
        scales and that clairity and type of water (salt/fresh) affects
        the maximum depths.  
    
    	Thanks
    
    	George
    
    

    I've got a little apelco color that puts out 150 watts.  Its pretty
    good at picking up stripers, blues, tuna and schools of bait.  But if
    I'm cod fihing in +200', it has trouble picking up small schools of
    fish hanging on the bottom.  If they're off the bottom by 10' or so it
    gets them ok (pollock), but has trouble right on the bottom.

 The power of the unit is only half the story; the frequency of the
transducer and the "cone angle" also factor heavily into the useful
depth ability of any particular unit. As I recall (and I may have
this backwards) high frequency transducers are best for high detail
and low depth and low frequency transducers work best for lower
detail but greater depth. Accordingly, the cone angles for high frequency
transducers are wider than for low frequency transducers.

 What exactly is your application? Do you expect to regularly be in
500-1000 feet of water? If so, a low frequency transducer with
~1000 W should take care of you. A bass fisherman, on the other hand,
would be better served with a higher frequency transducer and would
probably only need a 150 W unit.

    Mark, I disagree. My dual freq unit has a wide cone 50KH that is used
    for shallow water and trolling.  I use the 200KH freq narrow cone
    for deep water fishing.
    
    BTW my unit runs at 25, 150 and 600 Watts. I can bottom lock in deep
    water at 25 but won't see much. At 600W I can see lobster pots and
    individual fish at depths over 300ft. For deep water fishing a bottom
    zoom is a great feature.
    
    Bruce

 Ok- so I got it backwards.

	I'm looking at purchasing a fish finder for my Thompson.
	For my price range, it looks like either an Eagle or a 	
	Hummingbird.  

	The units I checked out at Walmart are:

	Eagle SupraPro ID (no bottom alarm):	$ 98
	Eagle Supra ID (w/ bottom alarm): 	$129
	Hummingbird Wide One ( "     " ):       $ 98
	
	I mostly want it for striper fishing to locate structure,
	and to warn me if I'm getting into (too) shallow water.
	Also for largemouths/structure.  I don't get into deep
	ocean water on this boat.

	I'm inclined to go with one of the Eagle units.
	Anyone have any opinions on these verses the Hummingbird ?

	Thanks,
	Ken

    I PURCHASED THE  EAGLE ULTRA II LAST SUMMER FOR THJE SAME USE. $289.00
    FROM BASS PRO. I THINK IT  GREAT !!  CAN'T COMMENT ON SUPRA OR
    HUMMINGBIRD. NEVER USED ONE.
    

Thanks for the comment on the Eagle.  I thought I had read in here
that Eagle was made by Lowrance (?), and that it was generally better
than the Hummingbird brands.   

/Ken

    True, Eagle is made by Lowrance. I've owned numerous Hummingbird and
    Lowrance models and I prefer Lowrance.  My biggest complaint about the 
    Hummingbirds is not being able to read the screen with polarized
    glasses on.  I had a LCR series along time ago and it was trerrible. 
    Then when the TCR series came out they supposedly fixed the problem, 
    at first glance it was better, but after installing one I found it to
    be alot tougher to read than the Lowrance I had up on the bow at the
    time.  Maybe Hummingbird really fixed the problem this time around,
    couldn't tell ya.  
    
    I'm currently running an Eagle up on the bow and on the console a 
    Lowrance paper graph plus a Lowrance digital depth guage (and Lowrance
    digital temp) and I'm very happy with all of them.
    
    -donmac 

    Ken,

        I recently bought the Eagle Supra I.D. with shallow and deep water
    alarms and like the unit very much. I only got to use it a couple of
    times as the season was ending for me. The only problem is that prior
    to the fish finder, I was catching alot of stripers. After I got the 
    finder, I couldn't catch anymore fish;')...

    Gus

    I have the magma II and like it very much.  I also had a problem with
    it (fogged up after several days of torrential rain)  sent it back and
    got a new unit, new warranty and a new transducer (didn't send the old
    one because didn't want to dismount it).
    
    I also got a box to mail it back if any more problems come up (pre paid
    postage) now who can argue with service like that.
    
    brian

	Sounds like the Eagle is the way to go.   I just hope I still
	have fish on the end of the line and not just on the screen
	after I start using it ;-)

	/Ken

    
    They tell you more where the fish aren't than where they are!  :^)
    
    Fred

>                     <<< Note 32.105 by MPGS::MASSICOTTE >>>
>                      -< Patience my good man, patience >-
>    
>    They tell you more where the fish aren't than where they are!  :^)
    

	;-)  I haven't had a problem locating fish without one, but I have
	had a problem locating/hitting bottom a couple of time, so this
	should help.

	Plus it's a Christmas toy I've wanted and intend to get this year ;-)

	/Ken

    I bought an impulse this summer and love it.  It has a back light
    feature that makes it really easy to see at night while striper
    fishing.
    
    mark,
    

    I purchased the lawrance X-70 and have had wonderful results. My
    biggest problem with the Humminbird I owned was it was underpowered.
    The Eagle flasher I also owned clearly outperformed the Humminbird flasher.
    
    My new X-70 was expensive, but worth every cent. Several fishing buds
    own several different brands. Our semi-official comparisons from
    fishing backseat to each other is.
    
    	Eagle/Lawrance      X-70 (upgrade of the X-60)
    			    X60-LMS150   			Best
    
    	Bottomline						Very good
    
    	Humminbird						good to
    								very good.
    
    	The rest.
    
    We don't pretend to know it all about depth finders. We can, however,
    use them pretty well. We can find bass in weed beds and off of
    structure. The Lawrance can distinguish between weeds and a school
    of shad.... and paint the picture so you can tell. 
    
    jim
    

Well, It's 1995 and technology is always changing.  So do sonars...

I'm looking at getting a new one (sold the old one with the boat).  Any body
got any input from comparisons made lately and if so:  (I'm looking for
dive sites mostly)

	- Make and model?
		- Veritical Pixels:
		- power (RMS/Peak-Peak):
		- Freq. (KHz):
		- Tube/LCD:

	- Are 3D ones any better than 2D?

	- Ever heard of Lowrance sonars and if so are they popular?
	  (they sell 10:1 better here than the "birds" (Eagle, Humminbird), 
	  but this may be a regional thing) 

(I see that some of you have...)

	- Any other comments?

Thanks,
[\]
| BmP  (brian)

PS: Cross posted to SCUBA #155

    Brian, Lowrance and Eagle are really the same units. I'm not sure who
    owns who (I think Lowrance is the parent company) I'm partial to the 
    eagle products but thats my preference. The ones I've had are very
    reliable and when I had a problem It was taken care of quickly and
    returned to me. If your looking mainly to locate dive sites,almost any
    unit would do. I don't believe you would need a lot of detail but I 
    could be wrong. If you are looking for a mid-range unit with detail
    and a price around $200 you should look at the Eagle Magna series.
    Another consideration will be how deep your planning on diving. Some 
    of these units have limited depth range but most should be sufficient
    for your use.
    
    
     Regards
    
     Don B,

    
    
    
    Lowrance owns EAGLE.....If you must classify the units....think of the
    Lowrance units as commercial units and the EAGLE products as
    consummer units.....You will gennerally pay a couple of dollars more
    for the Lowrance units.  I prefer the EAGLE units myself........
    
    Craig
    

    Does anyone have any experience with the Eagle Ultra III 3D?
    
    I'm outfitting a new boat and selecting my 2nd LCR. The first is an 
    Ultra II.  The main reason I'm considering the Ultra III 3D is that it
    is the cheapest way for me to stick with an Eagle/Lowrance product and 
    be able to run both units at the same time without them interfering
    with each other. (the 3D runs on a different frequency)
    
    -donmac