Conference wahoo::fishing-v2

    
    
    
          Re. -.1
    
             Have you joined in at all or just filming.If only filming
             when will it be available in the adult section at movie
             rental stores???
    
    
    
                                              The Keg

    
    
        I was just wondering if there's going to be a DEC ice fishing
     tourney???? Well that is if we do get ice!!! Well let's have some
     comment's on this issue...
    
    
    
   "SCOOP"

ICE?!?!

go away!

    re: 86.0
    
    Bruno---
    
    Are spearguns illegal in Canada, too?
    
    
    
    
    I thought successful Northern fishing was a genetic Canadian trait.
    
    
    
    
    Watch it with those big words like "mesotrophic" in here!
    
    
    
    
    You've really got a 100-foot deep mesotrophic lake behind the Canadian
    Shield? I always imagined they were all oligotrophic up there....
    
    
    John H-C

    
    no.
    
    (ya perch jerker...)
    
    
    /LT

    RE .3
    
    	Incredible!!  What ever happened to valuing differences??  What
    ever happened to respecting people as individuals??  Your remarks are
    a great example of bigotry!  "They fish for bass so they must all
    be (insert Johns description here)!!"
    
    	I hear that the Bass notesfile needs a better-than-thou know-it
    all to round out their membership, why don't you sign up...... I'm
    sure you'd get the position.
    					B.C.

    re: .5
    I forgot to include "monosyllabic" in my descriptive blanket for
    certain bass fishermen. Thanks for reminding me, BC.
    
    I assume you're going to be around for a while longer?
    

    Don't worry John, I will still log into this account once in a while 
    between drinking beer and changing my diapers! I have a terminal at
    home so when my friends come over we just sit around and read your
    replys for laughs!!
    
    Please keep us informed as to when you will be cleaning up another
    lake. People have commented on how wonderful the lake
    looks...especially after you leave!!!!!
    
    Well it's been great knowing all you folks. I have enjoyed reading MOST
    of the notes in this file, it's just too bad that some people have
    taken all of the fun out of it.
    
    Have a great winter and see you on the water next year.
    
    Bass-O-Matic
    
    

    
    
         Some People....???
    
            At this point I don't know what to think. The *constant
         bashing * of people in this file is very tiring. I thought
         the hole point of a fishing conference was to share ideas,
         thoughts and experiences. Mr.H-C writes some very interesting
         notes at times and other times...??? well..thats when I hit
         RETURN not "REPLY".  I feel for the beginner/experienced fisherman
         who has questions or advice for others and doesn't write because
         He or She may feel thay have a bullseye on the back.
                                  
                                                   Just my thoughts
                                                         KIV

 Like I said in 2.last, this note is not going to become a battleground.

 While it is not required that everyone like everyone else, it _is_ required
that people treat other people in a manner consistent with the professionalism
due other DEC employees. 

 This conference is not dedicated to having pissing contests, nor is it
for one group of fishermen to declare themselves superior to another
group, nor is it to exchange insults. This file is intended for the exchange
of information from one fishermen to another to facilitate the enjoyment
of the sport by all. If this is not what you are here for, you are in the
wrong place.

 As moderator and conference host, it is my responsibility to ensure that
these resources are used consistent with DEC policy. I much prefer to keep
a relatively low profile and allow people to interact. I will not tolerate
squabbling. Take your personal differences elsewhere. This is supposed to
be a fun place. In short, knock it off! Talk about fishing, not diapers.

 The Doctah

    Gee, I didn't even use any big words... or any of those really short
    ones, either.

    send me your interoffice address and i'll forward you my 10 bucks now .....
    
    
    moose.

    
    
      RE: 83.2
    
    
    
           Moose,
    
                    Glad to see someone is interested. Where's all that ice
                sprit????

    ICE TOURNEY!!!!
    
    
         Y E S ! ! ! ! ! ! !
    
    Wait for details
    
    Mr. ICE

    
    
    	re: .2      Moose:
    
    		    The Gitzit'
    		    HLO2-1/F11
    
    		    Cash..........no checks.....:-)
    
    
    	Yo!   Mr Ice...:-)...you had the tourney in the file by now.....
    
    		

    
    
     
              Wait a second Mr.Gitzit old buddy,old pal,old carpbait
              should read 
    
              Team Keg c/o The Keg
              MRO4-1/H18
              cash/check/money order or beer should do it.
    
    
    
                                        
    
             
    

    
    Joe,
    
    Please call me...........I'll do anything to be your friend, I wrote a
    note to the BASS file and the next thing I know is that the next time I
    tried to access that file the word is that I'm no longer a member! i ein
    
    Nice to see you again moose face and Matt .
    
    I'm ready Joe. Call me
    
    TBDW
    
    BBTW  (they took away my memberskip?)
    

<    TBDW
<    
<    BBTW  (they took away my memberskip?)
<

Do you blame them after the rotten stuff you said!!!

Al    

>    Hey Don, you forgot item #11:
    
>    11. Chez Tim
    
 You guys take Tim's house with you ice fishing?!! Ever hear of traveling 
light? :-)

You forgot one very important figure...


                         APA Ice Thickness Table

                   Ice Thickness   |   Permissable Load
                   ----------------+---------------------
                      0.5 Inches   | Legend (heh...heh...heh)

    
    
         Re: One of my greatest fears is falling throught the ice and
         drowning! 
 
         Ya and if Team Keg were with ewe the headlines would read...
    
         "One dies drowning six die laughing!"
    
    
                                              T.K.

    What do you do with 300 smelt? Or even 25 smelt? 
    
    I mean, these aren't garbage fish like carp or suckers. They're an
    integral part of the food chain. If you don't eat them or let them go,
    you're just wasting them and pressuring the salmonids, no?
    
    
    Just curious....

    We eat them, of course.  They are great eating.  And they freeze well.  
    It's not unusual to catch a 100 smelt per person.  And it takes a pile 
    of them to make a meal.  I doubt you'll find people wasting smelt.  
    The legal limit in NH is (I think) 10 qts liquid measure per person per 
    day. 
    
    The 25 smelt we caught last night will be cooked up and eaten in the 
    smelt shack tomorrow night when we're back at it again. They'll be
    mighty tastey too.  Although last night's venison steak supper
    (compliments of Keith) will be a tough act to follow. 
    
    -donmac

    John HC,
    
    I agree with Don Mac, people who fish for smelt don't waste them or
    at least the shouldn't. If they don't get eatin, I like to try and
    save some small ones for some lake trout fishing In MAINE.
    
    John, How did your diving trip in Winni go this year? any was wondering
    if you would do a winter dive for me in the Exeter and tell me where
    those @#$ smelt are! (just kidding)
    
    MIke
    

 4 or 5 years ago the cafeteria in MRO1 used to occaisionally serve them deep
fried.  They were great.  They dredged them in a flour and cornmeal mixture and
deep fried 'em.   Makes my mouth water just thinking of it.  If Tobin can do
that well, just think what you can do at home....

Al

    Many sea food restaurants serve them - but they always taste "fishier"
    to me when I order them.
    
    Like most fish, they are MUCH better when served fresh. 
    
    Most often we bring the previous trips cleaned smelt with us for
    cooking in the shack, but occasiionally we'll taken them right out of
    the hole, cut their heads off, slice their bellies, thumb the guts, 
    rinse them in the hole, and drop them in the pan - all in a matter of
    seconds.
    
    -donmac 

	Catch Fresh Fish
	In Ice cold Water
	Clean Fresh Fish
	In Ice Cold Water
	Cook Fresh Fish 
	In Hot Greasy Skillet
	Eat Fresh Fish
	In Seconds

	Yum Yum sounds good to me.
	And I already had my lunch!!!

	-< Tuna Tail >-

    Yo, John HC,
    
    I've eating at least 100 in the month of Oct & Nov alone.  I got
    another two meals (anywhere from 8-15, depending on the size) in the
    freezer.  Since they freeze well, it's nice to pull some out in July!
    I could eat 300/year easily, that's only about 2 meals a month!  If I
    had them, I could eat them once a week (now we're looking at 600-750)
    easily.
    
    Tim
    

    Gee, it's nice to read you all eat what you kill. (A rule known as
    "hunter's ethics" when I was growing up."
    
    Just how big are these saltwater smelt you all are hauling up? Are they
    substantially larger than the landlocked smelt?
    
    Which kind of smelt are they?
    
    Thanks.
    
    John H-C
    

    They are your basic atlantic rainbow smelt.  I know some guys who live
    near good smelt waters who catch them and sell them to the local fish
    market.  I occasionally give some to friends and/or relatives, but I am
    pretty selfish when it comes to smelt.  I believe that any sea-run fish
    will be larger than its landlocked counterpart, although I've never
    caught or seen the fresh water variety.
    
    Tim
    

    The biggest freshwater rainbow smelt I've ever seen was 6 inches long.
    A little too small to gut and eat?

    	I've caught smelt (salt water variety) up to 11" long, but I prefer
    the smaller ones. They're better to eat.
    
    	RAYJ

    re: 101.13
    
    I was told by a FISHING noter a while back that it was illegal to use
    anything other than smelt pieces as bait. Are suckers more legal than
    yellow perch as ice fishing bait?
    
    Again, just curious....
    
    John H-C

    
>    I was told by a FISHING noter a while back that it was illegal to use
>    anything other than smelt pieces as bait. Are suckers more legal than
>    yellow perch as ice fishing bait?
 
    Then all the shiners and red-fins the bait shops sell when smelt
    aren't available must be illegal too?!  I doubt it.

    The really large suckers in the bait shop tanks are sold to be used as
    cut bait for cusk.

    George   

 No, John, that information is false.

 On certain NH lakes, you cannot use Yellow Perch for bait (1st Connecticut
Lake, as I recall, being one of them.)

 On Lake Sunapee, you can't use any live bait (finfish).

 On other lakes, you can use smelt, shiners, suckers or whatever...

    Thanks for the feedback.
    
    I feel compelled to mention that the European Redfin is indeed illegal,
    at least in MA. It should be illegal in NH and everywhere else if it
    isn't already. The reason is that they out-compete damn near everything
    in a body of water and they live forever while they become HUGE. Many
    fisherfolk toss their live bait into the lake when they are done for
    the day. 
    
    I'm sure none of the folks who frequent *this* conference would do such
    a thing with exotic bait, but there are all those other folks who think
    they're doing the fish a favor by dumping in free food with no hooks
    attached....
    
    FWIW
    
    John H-C

>PS.  Just spent a day last week on the Henry's Fork fishing the midges/snoflies
>that hatch when its sunny.  I only had about 2 hours, but caught over 40 
>rainbows in the 12-18" range.  Covering Idaho and Wyoming for work has its
>benefits.

 I hate you, Tabber. :-)

 Cheery the friggin' noo.

 The Doctah

    All this talk about rods breaking and being or not being simply
    replaced and returned gratis has got me wondering:
    
    How do your fishing rods get broken?
    
    The only one I ever broke was one I misjudged the length of while
    entering the house and kicked the door shut behind me (snap!).
    
    I mean, under normal circumstances, the line breaks before the rod does
    when you are trying to haul in a fish or force a lure off a branch. No?
    
    
    John H-C

    
    
         Dear H-C
     
             Can you say the word FATIGUE !!! Or manufacturing defect.
         This is not entirely uncommon.
                                                   Kiv
    
         John 
             Quick question.. what impact (if any) does leaving half
         burned wood (logs mostly) on the ice only to melt threw come
         spring. 
                                                 thankyou
                                                    Kiv  

    Kiv---
    
    I've been wondering about the same thing (burned wood left on the ice).
    
    There have been some rather severe negative effects on some lakes in
    heavily populated areas where wood stoves and fireplaces are used a
    lot. Sometimes the snow on the ice turns gray from the airborne ash.
    By the end of a long northern winter, the lake surface contains
    multiple layers of ash and snow. When it melts, the ash-laden water
    raises the ph of the lake water a detectable amount if the lake is
    small enough. This in itself is may be not so bad, except that the
    raised ph is quickly lowered by other factors, causing a damaging ph
    fluctuation. What kind of damage? I haven't found anybody who can tell
    me anything other than that it is damaging, and I haven't seen any
    damage directly attributable to ph fluctuation per se.
    
    Sorry I don't have more information.

    re .-2
    
    That half burned log floating around in the spring just may cost
    someone a prop or lower unit.  And that someone may be you.
    
    Gordon (who doesn't want to buy/fix anymore props)
    

    re: 109.13
    
    Tim---
    
    I agree the Marine Forecast cannot be trusted. I have gone out for
    shore-type stuff many times when the captain called off the trip
    because of the forecast, and as often as not, the water was like glass. 
    
    The value of calling the Forecast before leaving the house is that you
    can count on the captain's following the Forecast's
    warnings/advisories, regardless of reality. If you have your own boat,
    it's a different story, since you do not have the same
    liability/insurance concerns that a commercial operator has (unless of
    course you are a commercial operator).
    
    John H-C

    Ed---
    
    Just what do those parasitic divers do?
    
    Any money in it?
    
          

    re : parasitic divers
    
    	well, to get an idea of what one looks like ... check the mirror
    						
    							:-)
    
    	what they do ?
    
    			anything we can get away with
    	
    	any money in it ?
    
    		ask me again in the Fall of '92
    
    
    (actually for any confused people ...  I was referencing the
     people who pop into a conference for peripheral reasons, but
     because that's where the good ideas or experience are)

    All the mirrors are cracked around here, Ed.

    
     WoW!!
    
            Mirror mirror on the wall, whos the biggest
     parasitic diver of them all....
    
                                                   
                                                        

Anyone know the conference for Scuba Diving?

Jim

    re: .64
    
    GOOFOF::SCUBA
    
    If GOOFOF isn't on your node's network address list, let me know. I
    think somebody somewhere posted its "real address."
    
    John H-C

    re: 94.53
    
    I see that Gordon understands the commercial guys' methods of
    enforcement.
    
    Gordon, was that lobsterman working out of Nahant? I saw the results of
    a similar self-policing exercise up to its roof in water at low tide
    last December. Just wondering whether it was the same guy.
    
    John H-C

    I'll take this right to the rathole, it'll end up there anyway...
    
    RE: .94
    Why is it that direct retribution by commercial fishermen is not 
    only condoned, but glorified?  If some poor b*stard without a Loran 
    and marginal navigational skills (like myself) happens to drift over
    a restricted reef with lines out, is ramming, sinking, or bodily 
    harm justified?  How 'bout if truckers start running speeders off 
    the road, or store owners start popping kids with a .38 because 
    they appeared to be shoplifting?  In both cases, the proprieter's 
    source of livelihood is being threatened, but proper legal action
    is the preferred remedy.  Hell, you can't even shoot a burglar if
    he's leaving your house.
    
    Let it fly...
    Rick

    Rick---
    
    It has more than a little to do with the private universe in which they
    live. I don't mean to glorify their methods or their "culture." I am
    simply trying to learn how to live within its strictures while I am
    visiting.
    
    John H-C

    I know, I didn't expect to get a hell of a lot of support for
    my question here.  But the reason I asked, is that one time, 
    about 5 years ago, two friends and I were a few hundred yards 
    off Sesuit Harbor fumbling with a tangled water ski tow rope,
    getting ready to do some skiing on a glassy smooth Cape Cod
    Bay.  Suddenly the Dennis Harbor master came out of the harbor 
    with blue lights flashing, and came right over to us.  Said 
    someone had reported that we were pulling lobster traps, which 
    couldn't have been further from the truth.  He saw the skis and
    tow rope in the water, politely asked to see inside our cooler 
    and under the seats, saw that we were doing nothing wrong, told 
    us to have a nice day, and was gone in less than 30 seconds.
    
    How would we have done with a lobsterman who was convinced we were
    pulling his traps?  I'm glad I didn't have to find out!
    Rick

    Well, Rick, I can tell you that lobstermen have been reported to:
    
    1. Pull a gun and fire at surfaced scuba divers (either a bad shot or
    just intent on intimidating, at which he succeeded)
    
    2. Turn from his course, push the throttle to the limit, and drive
    through a small floating garden of divers' flags (this one witnessed by
    me)
    
    3. Wait on shore with a group of fellow lobstermen, just to check the
    divers' catch and generally to intimidate
    
    4. Drop bricks in the water where the divers' bubbles are coming up
    (Thank goodness NE divers wear .25-inch neoprene hoods.)
    
    5. Display a variety of less overt forms of hostility
    
    
    Reporting these incidents to the Harbor Master, the Coast Guard, the
    Police, the State Police, and even --- in an act of desperation because
    this is who the Coast Guard *said* to call --- the local EPO, got
    nothing. No response. Had the name of the boat, the name of the owner,
    and all the particulars. Got a knowing "Uh-huh" in each case.
    
    Sometimes it just don't pay....
    
    John H-C

    RE .66
    
    I believe it was Marblehead (same area).
    
    Gordon

    re: last few
    
    I'm not condoneing it either, just stating the facts.  I also think
    that lobsterman believe that all divers are stealing from their traps.
    There is no love lost between divers and lobsterman.
    
    I have seen a lobsterboat pulling his traps nearly rafted up with a
    dive boat with divers down.
    
    I don't think the casual drifting by a pleasure boat fishing in a
    restricted area would bring anything more that a warning.  However,
    repeated offenses may be the contrary especially if the offender was a
    commercial.
    
    Gordon
    

>    I'm also interested in where you can obtain blue grease?  

 Buy a Penn reel. They include a tube in the bottom of the box. :-)

    >> Buy a Penn reel. They include a tube in the bottom of the box. :-)
    
    Ok, I can use it for a bumper winch for my 4x4.
    
    Actually, I would definitely look at Penn if they had lifetime warrantees 
    and made the style of reel I was looking for. 
    
    -donmac

    I was reading the most recent copy of the N.E. fisherman last night and
    got a blast from the past fishing notes file
    
    There was an add for a charter boat the "Rainbow Chaser" which caught
    my eye.  Further reading discovered Capt. Walt Gibson.
    
    I thought I would post it here for information.
    
    Gordon

 re: Capt. Bruce

 FWIW- Bruce Sweet received his captain's license. Congrats to Bruce!

    Thanks, Jeff.

    I've never been nearer to Quinsigmond (sp?) than the roads that go by
    it. If it's the one I'm thinking of, it's in the Worcester area and
    looks like a miniature finger lake. How clear is the water there? And
    how deep is it?
    
    Thanks.
    
    John H-C

It's the boundary between Shrewsbury and Worcester, and in parts, it's 
about 90 feet deep, I'm told. They have had several monsters come out of 
there. Not sure how clear the water is.

 I went to Zyla's the other day. What did I see? Capt. Codfish's smiling
face (Lucia's too) on a pamphlet for Sweet Dream II fishing charters.

 I love seeing that stuff! :-)

 The Doctah

    re: 140.18
    
    Marty ---
    
    About fish interbreeding and it's strangeness, I feel the same way. I
    think it was in this version of this conference where I entered a brief
    description of my watching my smallmouth bass and redbreast sunfish
    trying to mate when I put them in the same tank. Biologically
    impossible, but they are closely enough related that they both felt the
    urge to try. (Or so it seemed, anyway.) By some accident of nature,
    apparently, some fish not only try, but succeed.
    
    My understanding is that it just doesn't work with large- and
    smallmouth bass. But then, maybe it does. Until you get pretty far
    north (where temperature ranges make a very real difference), whenever
    small- and largemouth bass inhabit the same waters, largemouth
    predominate to the point of excluding the smallmouth. You can see this
    happening here in Massachusetts at Walden and White Ponds. Maybe they are
    indeed interbreeding with the largemouth having the stronger gene pool?
    
    BTW, thank you very much for the first-hand memories of these fish.
    
    John H-C

Does anyone know if the Flyfish conference has found a new home??

Thanks
Tabber

    Yes, it is now on VESD01::Flyfish.
    
    Just moved....tough to keep track of.
    Jim

    C'mon, folks, how about it? White Pond? Quinsigamond?
    
    Meet some divers. Do a little something to counteract those *other*
    anglers who trash the waters we all love. Huh?
    
    John H-C

    	Sorry John, I'll be in Florida then....  Quinsig?  My boat could
    only hold a few shopping carts any way!  THE predominant Quinsig
    structure!
    			B.C.

    Brian---
    
    Quinsig is a survey rather than a cleanup. We just want to see (and
    photograph) just how bad the trash problem is. We suspect it is
    beyond anybody's ability to clean it up.
    
    We're looking for boats for Quinsig to "run interference" and provide
    transportation. By "interference" I mean that if a boat is already
    hovering over a pair of divers, it is less likely that another boat
    will shoot over them at high speed. Y'know?
    
    John H-C

    Please dont remove the shopping carts, They make Great Bass structure.
    
    

 Do you lose alot of lures to the carts?

    
    
    		Don't lose alot if you rig 'em cartless.
    
    		Gitzit'

I'll bet you lose a lot of lures to stumps.  Ya gonna remove them?

-HSJ-

    Brian ---
    FWIW, Fisheries & Wildlife is the only solvent division of the MA state
    government. In fact, the rest of the government occasionally takes
    questionably legal advantage of this and appropriates funds apparently
    earmarked for "research."
    
    They can raise a lot more fish for the money you spend for a license
    than you can catch, which is why they're solvent, among other reasons.
    
    I'll happily take a conversation about stocking smallmouth and
    largemouth bass to e-mail with you.
    
    John H-C

    John, I believe you are wrong. If your statement was true about the 
    the state appropriating money from the fish and game account "license
    fee's". The state will not receive there share of the pie from the
    feds. There is a federal tax on fishing and hunting gear that you do
    not see at the consumer level.

    Rich 

    re: .7
    
    Rich ---
    
    Would you be willing to elaborate? My information on the subject is
    anecdotal from an admittedly disillusioned MA fisheries biologist who
    had just lost funding for one of projects because $2 million, from
    which his funding was to have come, had recently been appropriated for
    "social services." It could be that I was hearing hyperbole rather than
    fact. If you have the facts, would you share them?
    
    Thanks.
    
    John H-C

    
    
    Interesting, one note about stocking reports..and the rest?
    
    Maybe we should rename the note?
    
    
    Chuck

    Apathy's everywhere, Jack.
    
    A good-hearted FISHING noter volunteered to find some help for that
    Haverhill/Merrimack site, and he has had no luck, despite all his
    efforts.
    
    Don't worry, the aura of benevolence that will surround you and your
    canoe on White Pond will keep you afloat no matter what. <grin>
    
    John H-C

    Trolling for Togue banned in New Hampshire? 
    Is it possible that somebody finally realized that miles of cable and
    lead-core line stretched between rocky reefs and that "cannon balls"
    dragged through the benthic region (doing the same damage that
    "Draggers" do in saltwater) are bad for the fish and everything else
    down there?
    
    I doubt it, but I wish it were true.
    
    John H-C

    I read in the paper last night that the trolling for Touge ban in NH
    applied to the ice fishing season. Tha small rule book that you get
    when you buy a license is not clear at all on this. Bottom line is that
    it is legal during open water season.
    
    John
    

    Re: -1
    
    You mean I shouldn't cut that mile long 5' wide hole?
    
    ;^)
    

    re: last two in 44 (TIDES)
    
    Hey, I can be nice, too.
    
    <g>
    
    John H-C

    Hi,
    
    Looking for a place (hopefully near mass border) that sells Smelt.
    
    Need these for a fresh water experiment!  
    
    This experiment will be conducted Wednesday - results on Thursday.
    
    
    regards,

    Re: .98
    
    Cutting the hole isn't so bad. It's the running back and forth all day
    that gets me especially with that damn 10 LB downrigger ball connected.
    
    John
    
    

    	Let's hope that your experiment does not consist of seeing how long
    those smelt can swim with a hook in them.....  On Wednesday, which just
    HAPPENS to be the day that Wachusett Res. opens!
    
    	If ya can't catch them legally ya don't deserve to have them!
    
    	Just a guess......
    					B.C.

              <<< WAHOO::USER1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]FISHING-V2.NOTE;1 >>>
                       -< Fishing-V2: All About Angling >-
================================================================================
Note 70.25                    Environmental Issues                      25 of 25
GEMVAX::JOHNHC                                       13 lines   1-APR-1992 13:00
                              -< Your call, Rick >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    re: .23
    
    Rick---
    
    Please feel free to repost anything of mine in here or elsewhere that
    you think would be appropriate for the BOATING conference. I'm normally
    just read-only in there because I'm not too clear on what subjects on
    the periphery of boating interests folks there.
    
    Thanks.
    
    John H-C
    

    Sounds to me like you're blaming a child for your own inadequacy.
    Can you handle your own boat? Did you expect this child to overcome
    his exuberance and apply the skills necessary for docking safely?
    Who was the captain, anyway? I've NEVER heard a captain blame the
    crew the way you're trying to blame this "brat" for bustin' up your
    toys. Sink it, sell it, or sail it, pal.
    
                                               Ken
    
    

    I watched a couple guys catching shad on Saturday a few minutes before
    we got into the Merrimack for a cleanup. Everybody released them as
    soon as they were caught.
    
    Why?
    
    John (just asking) H-C
    

    What?!?! The shad are in the Merrimack already and nobody told me?!?!?
    
    John,
    	Few people eat shad. People catch them because they're lots of
    fun.
    
    			Robert.

    
    
       Ken,
    
         First off you should make sure you stop and think about what you
    are gonna write before you just start calling someone "inadequat"!
    
       if you took the time to READ and THINK about what I wrote in  my
    note maybe you would of thought twice before you started typing.
    
       I said that I told him to hold the boat till "I" could tie up to the
    dock. its pretty hard to be more specific than that!  the same thing
    with the other 2 incedents. if he would of done what I had asked which 
    are not big chores at all.
    
       This CHILD as you wish to call him is 16 years old. SUPPOSEDLY they
    have the priveledge to operate a motor vehicle in every state since
    they should have enough common sense to operate a vehicle safely. I
    would not call him a BRAT he just thinks he knows everything about
    boats and fishing, and all his life he has never been corrected for
    doing anything wrong.
    
       I was the operator of the boat not the CAPTAIN as you asked a
    CAPTAIN is a person who holds a certificate of license from the United 
    States Coast Guard. 
    
        As far as calling my EQUIPMENT  TOYS let me just say this I damn
    sure would not pay $300.00+ for friggin TOYS!!!!! and I have worked on 
    adding equipment to my boat for a long time! this is all high tech
    fishing EQUIPMENT not something like a tonka truck that you can smash
    up throw away and run down to K Mart to replace!!
    
      And believe me there isnt one person (except you maybe) that wouldnt 
    be POED if the same scenario happened to them. so you can keep riding
    your high horse.
    
        I have to let the sales clerk tie my sneakers..............NOT!
    
                                                      Lee
    

 All right. That's enough. I'd say you two are even. If you disagree, take
it to MAIL.

JohnHC:

Shad are great fun on light tackle (8# MAX).  They are not the best eating
fish, mainly 'cause they have too many bones.  The roe is not bad.

Tim
(who grew up in Spfld MA, on the CT river,
 sort of near Westfield meeting westfield,etc. Joe 
knows about those CT river shad)

    JohnHc
    
    To answer your question in the recipe note.  They are definitely true
    crappies, I would not want ot eat a pumkinseed or bluegill too small
    and too much work for what you'd get.
    
    Brian

    RE: .110
    
    	Bluegills get up to ~10 in. in Mass.  Worth the work, and
    delicious!  For years Little Chauncy produced the award winners.
    
    				B.C.

    
    
    
       Bluegill are definately worth the trouble, some of the best eating
    there is, and as B.C. said get plenty big.
    
    Bear
    
    
    

    re: .111 & .112

    Yeah, let's revisit the Marine Mammals Act, if necessary, to ensure
    that non-swimming mammals stay off the water.

    Forgot to put an ambiguous grin on that last reply.
    
    It is, after all, a complicated subject with a lot of different, and
    valid, perspectives.
    
    John H-C

    Tim---
    
    Could you send me specific coordinates for where you were fishing?
    
    Your 163.5 grabbed my attention like a grapple hook!
    
    What kind of mussels? 
    
    Rock crabs? Hermit crabs? Green crabs? What kind of crabs?
    
    Rocks? How big? Small enough that they were scooped up with the crab or
    the mussel? I mean, are we talking about large grains of sand, gravel,
    or real rocks?
    
    Since you leave out of Cape Ann, can I assume you were on the northern
    tip of the Bank?
    
    I'd really appreciate more info. We'll head out there with video
    cameras, still cameras, and writers soon.
    
    Thanks!
    
    John H-C

    John,
    
      Rocks about the size of a dime are common, I suspect inhaled
    along with a crab. We fished the east side about 4 miles down,
    near the muscels. i saw at least one sand crab with about a 3 inch
    shell come out of one fish. Loads of bait on the bank (sand eels).
    
    Bruce

    Does the "cod worm" that I've read and heard so much about lately have
    a name? I mean, is it really a "worm" or is it something that just
    looks like a worm?
    
    Thanks.
    
    John H-C

I'll save you one, if you are interested.  Or several.  Both the worm and
the "creature" which it attaches to the outside of the body, if you want.
Let me know.

Tim

    Yeah, I'm interested. Maybe Bruce would even take it home so I could
    pick it up at his house (just a street or two away).
    
    Thanks.
    
    (Standard proc is to capture the creature in a jar of saltwater and
    then put it in the refrigerator.)
    
    John H-C

    
     YES !!!!!
      
         I'll tell ya john. Its a generic term most people use
     for sunfish,blue gill, pumpkin seed.
    
                                                   Your favorite
                                                       Kiv
    
                                          

    I think 192.7 was referring to FRESHWATER cusk, no?

	re..124 ---->re. 192.7 re. CUSK in Salt vs Fresh H2O

	Sorry.
		Didn't know there were FreshH2O Cusk?
		The SaltH2O version tastes great and probably less filling?

	-< Tuna Tail >-

    Tuna Tail ---
    
    The freshwater cusk is the only member of the "cod" family that lives in
    freshwater. It's a coldwater, nocturnal fish. In the summer it can be found
    "hibernating" under rocks just below the thermocline (small ones) or
    wedged in among the crevices of granite reefs in 60+ feet of water
    (large ones) in the daytime. I have come across one in the open at
    night making its way around a sleeping school of yellow perch, eating
    its fill, apparently.
    
    The freshwater cusk grows to a known maximum weight of 75 pounds and a known
    maximum length of 4 feet.
    
    
    John H-C (who wasn't aware of a saltwater cusk until about this time
    last year)

	John H-C

	Thanks for update on Freshwater CUSK.
	Do you know if they taste good?

	The Saltwater kind has the head that looks like a COD but
	an eels tail.  When I caught it I said "yuck" and was about to
	dump it overboard when the mate said "hey" those are good eaten.

	Apparently you catch some with COD but not many as they are
	not school type fish.  You don't see much in fishmarkets as
	they aren't caught in bulk but by accident along with COD.
	They also are not as attractive to the consumer.  But the
	fisherpersons know it's a great tasting fish.  I in fact liked
	it much better than COD but not better than the rarely caught
	HADDOCK yum yum

	-< Tuna Tail >-

	PS: My son said he finally met you up in Concord, NH at 
	    the State Environmental Office fyi 

CUSK are a pain in the a$$ to clean.  They are slippery, slimey buggers.  I
will keep a big only (>5lbs) for the chowder pot, but they are too mushy for
much else.  I hope that I catch a haddock some day, although the odds are
greatly stacked against me.  Maybe I'll have to take one of those Georges/
Platts/Cashes trips.  Sigh.

Tim

       re. .128
       >>CUSK are a pain in the a$$ to clean.  They are slippery, slimey buggers

	Tim,
	    I assume your talking about the Saltwater kind?
	    Although long long ago in a place far far away...woops wrong story
	    Anyway I had no problem cleaning mine.
	    No different than cleaning a COD
	    And it was definetly not "mushy"
	    Maybe ya had a yucky one or more?

	    I do agree with you on the rarety of HADDOCK poor things.
	    Maybe someday.......ya right!!!
	-< Tuna Tail >-

Dick,

I have probably filleted 1-2K fish a year for the past 4 years.  The Cusk is

1) Slimy and hard to hold
2) Its rib cage extends further back then a cod/haddock/pollock
3) Cusk flesh is softer than any other fish I've ever cleaned

I suspect the only fish tougher to clean is a conger eel, which is more-or-less
a cusk anyhow.

To each their own, I guess.  I won't keep them <5#.  We haven't caught any this
year anyhow.

Tim

Tim,
	Well ya got me on that one. You sure have the expierence.
	If ever I catch another CUSK I'll check it out again and see 
	if I was dreamin or somethin "way back when".
	I agree on the Conger eel as when in Galway some time ago on a deep sea
	charter we caught lot's of dog's and some conger eels.  They kept
	them all and fillet the Conger eel (about 6 1/2' long) by taking a pair
	of pliers and grabbing the skin back behind the head after cutting the
	skin all around the neck they peeled the skin right off with ease?  
	Have you done them this way?

-< Tuna Tail >-

    I wish it weren't happening. Bureaucracy-after-the-buck at its best.
    This is the kind of behavior that has killed more habitats --- now
    forever lost --- than acid rain.
    
    I wish they had more sense in NH F&G than to introduce forage fish for
    the benefit of the state treasury.
    
    John H-C

>    I wish they had more sense in NH F&G than to introduce forage fish for
>    the benefit of the state treasury.

 None of the fish in 199.8 are forage fish.

 The alewives being introduced to Newfound Lake are forage fish, and I think
it's a great idea. And by the by, it has nothing to do with the state
treasury- it has to do with making the best use of our natural resources.
The state isn't going to make any money by doing this.

    At $35.50 for an out-of-state license, the state certainly does make
    money. All sunfish, including bass as well as bluegills and black
    crappie (aka calico bass) are forage fish, always ready to consume
    whatever looks like it might be food. 
    
    Maybe our definition of "forage fish" differs.

    Jack ---
    
    The problem is that fish are merely a piece of the ecoweb, and the
    outer fringe of the ecoweb at that. Introducing additional cells to the
    ecoweb throws it off balance. Sometimes you find a "wonderfully
    managed" pond like White Pond in Concord, MA, which has "terrific"
    fishing but lacks more than half of the aquatic life you would expect
    to see in an oligotrophic/mesotrophic body of freshwater.
    
    I don't really want to get on a soapbox in here, Jack. I'm here to
    learn from the anglers, and I contribute information when I have it. I
    don't, however, want to seem to preach while visiting this conference.
    
    John H-C
    
    

>    At $35.50 for an out-of-state license, the state certainly does make
>    money.

 Believe me when I tell you that there is no financial incentive to add
these species. There just isn't going to be money left over from the
"increased" license sales. Fishing licenses are anything but a cash cow
for the state.

>    Maybe our definition of "forage fish" differs.

 Clearly this is the case. Forage fish are fish that are forage for predators,
not predators themselves. Ask any fisheries biologist which of these two
lists is the list of forage fish and which is the list of predators: 
minnows, shiners, smelt, alewives and salmon, trout, bass, pickerel.

    Uh, Doc, I *learned* that definition of "forage fish" from a fisheries
    biologist. Now that I know what _you_ mean by "forage fish," I
    understand your objection to my terminology.
    
    I can't believe you on that one. If you want a further explanation,
    I'll be happy to take it e-mail.
    
    John H-C

    	Just look it up in the dictionary....  Forage is the food.  A game
    fish looking for food may be considered a foraging fish, but a forage
    fish?  NO...
    				B.C.

 Who's got the album? I found some pictures from the tourney I ran at Pawtuckaway
in 1989, with Vachon's whoppers, and I'd like to put them in.

 The Doctah

JohnHC (& others),

I'm hoping you can help me here.  I filleted a cod (hey Dick, I also did a pair
of fine cusk--this cusk's for you.  I remember why I dislike cutting them!) 
this week that had an "interesting" condition in the tail portion of the fillet.
It was darker, more like a pollock, and it had nodules of fat/gristle in it.
There was also a ball of calcium formed around one of the vertabrae (do fish
have vertabrae?)  in the back bone.  Very strange.  I wonder if this fish
had been crushed or bitten when it was younger?

Tim

    Out of my bailiwick, Tim. Sorry. I've been looking for info on Cod for
    the last week because of Bruce's remark about my possibly knowing about
    their reproductive habits. I know a lot more now than I did before,
    but none of it germane.
    
    What I have discovered is that there seems to be as much ignorance
    surrounding Atlantic Cod in the literature as there is surrounding
    freshwater ecosystem in general. There was a minor brouhaha made out of
    a recent discovery that fish tagged in the Gulf of Maine were tracked
    all the way to Greenland over the winter, which unleashed a fair amount
    of speculation about their migration habits. Speculation is all it was,
    though.
    
    This little discovery bothers me a little. All these people who fish
    (both privately and commercially) for this species, the population of
    which has dramatically dropped all over the Atlantic according to
    various sources including this file, and there seems to be precious
    little real-world knowledge of its behavior in its natural habitat.
    
    Sad.
    
    John H-C

    Ok, Tim, I made a phone call to a DMF biologist who is forever setting
    me straight about things. I asked him the question about spawning and
    about the cod you caught. 
    
    He came back reading from the same book I normally use (Bigelowe). (Oh,
    well.)
    
    When I described the fish you caught (reading your note to him), he
    said, "Wow, that's pretty interesting. I once caught a Butterfish with
    two mouths. No, not right off Pilgrim." Your speculation about the
    oddities being healing from an assault earlier in its life seems to be
    the most plausible explanation.
    
    John H-C

    
    Tim/John,
    
         Yankee Fleet produces a short, fairly detailed scientific white paper 
    or article on the behavior of cod and haddock upon request.  
    
    Ed
    

I also have the paper from the UMASS dept of wildlife/fisheries/whatever, you
know, the one sheet folded in half for a total of 4 pages.   It is somewhat
useful.  I've seen the Yankee one Ed, and it's not as technical as what I was
looking for.

    
    try hanging an 8x10 of the legend over the
    dock- either it will never come back or it
    will fall in love ;-)
    
    gerb

    
     I guess in a nut shell, what ever type of snapper it is please
     treat it with care!! right legend!!
                                                        k'

    
                        My ding-a-ling.. b minor please.
        
                  once i was swimming cross turtle creek
                  man them snappers all around my feet
                  surely was hard simming cross that thing
                  with both hands holding my ding-a-ling.. 
    
                                           your welcome
    
                                                kiv

    
    
    good one kiv!
    
    gerb

Re: .15

  >   try hanging an 8x10 of the legend over the
  >   dock- either it will never come back or it
  >   will fall in love ;-)
    
Man, you couldn't fit the Legend's nose on an 8X10, never mind the rest of
him mug!  Consider the snapper lucky in that case...

					Morg

    oops, how quickly we forget... 8^)
    
              <<< WAHOO::USER1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]FISHING-V2.NOTE;1 >>>
                       -< Fishing-V2: All About Angling >-
================================================================================
Note 2.36                   Moderator Actions Summary                   36 of 36
WAHOO::LEVESQUE "the dangerous type"                  2 lines  19-AUG-1992 14:22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 A new basenote relating the demise of an outdoors-type show was moved
to the TV show topic. Only 5 notes away, Don! ;-)

    How many of you guys live in Tewksbury, MA?
    
    My local convenience store, which is owned and operated by a family of
    landlocked Russians, carries a commercial fishing rag. It's usually
    sold out by the end of the month, so I figure somebody's buying it.
    Aside from Bruce Sweet, who else is my neighbor?
    
    Oh, yes, and I apologize to one of you. I bought your copy of the
    September issue.
    
    John H-C

    Sounds like the Store at the corner of Shawsheen,Patten,Foster,beech
    st to me. I'm about 200 yards away from the store on Sullivan pkwy in
    Tewksbury. I go there every night with my 2 boys for slush but never
    did notice the paper. Where in tewksbury are you? I was over Capt Sweet
    house in the spring but have yet to venture out with him but hope to
    sometime this fall..

    I'm a mile up the road on the Billerica side of Whipple. About .6 of an
    acre of my back yard is in Tewksbury. If you continued up Shawsheen, it
    would turn into Patten, which is the street I live on. The rag is at
    ankle level as you're facing the cash register. There are, I think, two
    copies of the September issue left.

    What do you think of the issue? Whats the price and is it worth it?

    $2.50/copy I haven't read it yet. Sorry.

    National Fisherman
    
    The articles are few in number, but the ads are mighty intriguing. I
    don't have a lot of sympathy for commercial fishermen, so I don't
    follow stories about their anguish over degrading fish takes with 
    anything even remotely resembling empathy.
    
    Nonetheless, the ads for various kinds of boats interest me quite a
    bit, but only in the way the ads for small aircraft in a private pilot
    rag interested me about 10 years ago. ("Yeah, if I sell the car, the 
    kids, and all the furniture, and then get a $100K windfall -- do I have
    any rich relatives who really liked me when I was young? -- I'll run
    right out and buy that plane!")
    
    I'm thinking again about building a boat. I mean, I can swim, so
    building a boat seems like a safer investment in time than building an
    airplane.
                                      
    John H-C 

    thanks john for that last paragragh....
    
    Bruce

>   I'm thinking again about building a boat. I mean, I can swim, so
>    building a boat seems like a safer investment in time than building an
>    airplane.

 For some people, unlike a guy I know who was lost at sea this year... :-(

    So there I was today, at the bow of the Voyager II as it turned back
    toward Boston after an hour of watching Tear and Salt surface and dive,
    and there was this little boat (all things are relative) with two guys
    in it, scooting over to watch Tear and Salt. I thought, "how strange to
    see one of those little fishing boats with no poles in sight." Just
    then, the little boat turned 90 degrees, and I read "Sweet Dream II"
    on the stern.
    
    Yep, folks, Bruce Sweet was 18 miles from the north shore without a
    pole even *prepared* to put a line in the water.
    
    Could it be....
    
    
    
    
    ...that Capt. Bruce is a nature lover???
    
    
    <grins>

    Sorry to disapoint....I was in the transition from Cod to blues.
    
    But I do run pure whale watch trips and do enjoy them. Tim was hand
    feeding some humpbacks on one of our tuna trips.
    
    Bruce

    Well, Bruce, I decided on my lunchtime bicycle ride to come back in
    here and enter a Whale-Hugger Alert! cancellation.
    
    Bruce sent mail explaining that my myopia was acting up and that he
    most certainly *did* have poles out and in plain site. That must
    explain my marvelling at his sophisticated electronics configuration.
    
    <g>

    Score one more for the superior species.

    	Shoulda' expected that kind of response. I wonder if it was from
    a male or female ;)  SAVE THE TURTLES!!!! ;)

    re: 212.40 & 212.41
    
    Well, you'd be making a mistake lumping me with the "Animal Rights"
    people. You could lump me in with "Environmentalists," and you would be
    pretty close to the mark.
    
    "Rights" do not increase or decrease with age, and I am not even sure
    what "rights" are, other than something created by "might."
    
    It strikes me as irrefutable that a turtle that has lived that long in
    a body of water -- and especially a snapper, which is a territorial
    animal -- has become an integral part of the local aquatic ecosystem.
    It is the senseless, useless rip in the local ecoweb that bothers me
    about the killing of the turtle. (Actually, it was Jeff Gilman's
    reference to the turtle's intruding on human territory that spurred my
    reply in the topic.)
    
    I'm sorry to read that if your kids were afraid of the turtle, you
    would kill it rather than take advantage of the opportunity to teach
    your kids something about turtles.
    
    John H-C

    
    H-C were you ever a kid? 
    
                                   kiv

    Sorry, Kiv, but... believe it or not, turtles are disappearing all over
    the world at an alarming rate. It hasn't reached the alarming stage of
    the mysterious worldwide die-off of frogs, but it is happening
    nonetheless, mainly as a result of human intrusion on their habitats.
    
    And, yes, I was a kid. I spent most of my non-school time in the water
    or the woods or both. Now I spend most of my non-work time in the water
    or the woods or both.
    
    I have two daughters who probably know a lot more about frogs, turtles,
    fish, birds, and insects than most adults ever will, and they've only
    just started learning. 

    "Its only a turtle".  That sums ups the essence of what alarms me...
    its the word ONLY.  Because that shows an attitude which IMO indicates
    a lack of respect for turtles and by inference any other living 
    creature except possibly humans.  That word, only, if extended to many
    people and many creatures sums up part of the reason we are having such
    severe environmental problems.  The Indians had it right I think.  They
    respected each creature they had to kill for food or survival. By
    respecting other lives... 'even' a turtles life it shows respect IMO
    for ALL life.  Man has been so arrogant for so long with the attitude
    that mankind is the only creature on Earth that ultimately matters
    and we have been so so sure that all other creatures should move over
    for us that we are coming close to destroying the system which supports
    all us... mankind and critters. 
    
    I understand what John H-C means.  The turtle was there first... had
    lived in that lake/pond for decades and now is intruding on a land
    creatures territory.  Might makes right apparently, we are smart 
    enough to outwit other creatures so usually we win.
    
    Maybe, just maybe the man should have moved over for the turtle?
    Thats a scary thought I know... because if one adopts that attitude
    it gives us alot less power over other animals.
    
    Jeff
    

    
    Jeff, I think you'd find that by far the majority of serious fisherman
    would consider themselves somewhat environmentalists.  Many of us 
    freshwater bass fisherman, probably most of us in the notesfile, 
    practice catch and release almost exclusively.  
    
    I'm glad to hear that your a fisherman.  From your first note in
    the turtle string, I wouldn't even had guessed you were a fisherman.
    This gives me a better understanding on where your head is at.  And
    I agree with most of your comments.
    
    But I also agree with the comment that "it's only a turtle".  I don't 
    like for people to associate human values, emotions and feelings with 
    animals.  In my mind there is a great distinction between people and
    animals
    
    And I also agree that people should treat animals with a great deal
    of respect.  Species should be protected, managed, possibly harvested,
    but not wasted.  I have a great love for the outdoors and all wildlife, 
    (with exception of possibly bees 8^) but IMHO, they're still "only" 
    animals and *people* come first.  It's up to us as people to do a good
    job protecting and preserving them.
    
    -donmac
    

 Jeff-

 I can hear what you are saying, and in a large part I can agree. 

 Not that debate is going to bring the turtle back or anything, but
I suppose that discussing the other options and alternative attitudes
might have an impact on future decisions about problem animals.

 And I sympathize fully with the father worried about what harm might
have befallen his children had he failed to act. I have seen first hand
and second hand what rogue snappers can do. They can become a significant
nuisance. And in this case, dispatching the turtle was chosen as the
method of dealing with the danger posed by the creature. I don't think
we should beat this guy up for that. After all, it was his call. Who else
is going to have to take his kids to the hospital after one of them has
been bitten by a snapper? Snapper bites, though rare, are pretty nasty
because they have strong jaws and they don't like to let go.

 I do find value in exploring some of the other possibilities, however,
especially if said discourse does not take on the tone of preaching
down to the sinners. :-) I think the vast majority if not all of us
recognize how vital our natural resources are, and how fragile the balance
of nature can be. And none of us want to mess things up for all of us and
our children.

 The Doctah

    ALL RIGHT|! A reasonable discussion!  Of course one can look at things
    from the 'turtles point of view' through human eyes because being human
    its the only way we CAN look at things.  And, I agree that other
    animals are not the same as humans.  Each IMO has its own unique place
    in the system.  I have been strugging for years trying to figure out
    whether we (humans) are 'just' another animal who have been on top
    so far because of our wits, or whether we are supposed to caretake
    the entire system because of our unique position.  To be blunt
    Planet Earths' ecosystem would get along just fine without us.. that
    is if mankind instantly vanished from the face of the Earth it could
    get along without us, in fact, it would start reparing itself
    immediately.  So are we parasites on the system who are trying to
    minimize our impact or are we supposed to be part of the fix?  I
    can't answer that, but since we are here we had better make the best
    of managing the system, otherwise we risk the entire ecosystem
    becoming 'unfriendly' to mankind.
    
    Yup, I love fishing too... the whole bit, the boating, the being close
    to nature, and trying to outwit fish into biting my hook.  Above all
    I CARE about what happens to the ecosystem and want to minimize my
    negative impacts on it.
    
    Yes, as a father I can relate to the concerns about a 'rogue snapper'
    as a potential risk to my kids.  I try to teach my son that (for 
    example) yes, you got bitten, but what were you DOING to set yourself
    up for it (if he did), rather than taking the position that any injury
    to him is automatically the animals/critters fault.  We 'must' learn
    to coexist with these other creatures rather than simply destroying
    any that offend our sense of values or intrude on 'our' territory.
    When it comes down to it its NOBODIES territory, we are all guests
    on this planet and any territorial claim is temporary.  IMO the only
    thing one TRUELY owns is your own body and spirit everything else
    is 'complimentary'.  I view my own land as territory I am privilaged
    to control for a period of time, and during that time I will try and
    make my land as compatible as possible for all the critters that live
    on it, even if I have to move over a bit.
    
    Off soapbox... but its still what I think.
    
    Jeff

    About the issue of kids' safety and the existence of the turtle:
    
    In my opinion, the turtle is as much a part of the body of water as a
    fish, a frog (if there happen to be any left), a daphne, or a mussel.
    It is the lifeforms that inhabit the water that make it alive. It is
    the fact that the water is alive that draws us to it. Otherwise we'd
    all hang out at the swimming pool, where the water is clear and "clean."
    
    My younger daughter fell into the lake when she was two years old.
    Nobody was around when it happened. The doctors said it was a miracle
    that she survived.
    
    We did not decide (and I don't think anybody here would, either) that
    the lake was evil and should be drained, despite its having nearly killed 
    one of our children. Instead, we instituted some very strict rules about 
    being on the dock or in the water. These rules prevented a recurrence of 
    the drowning incident. Now they can swim. 
    
    If you have a snapping turtle under your dock, and you really think the
    turtle is starving or wantonly aggressive, don't dangle your toes
    in the water while you're sitting on the dock. It's a pretty simple
    fix.
    
    If we had a snapping turtle under our dock, it would be a lot more
    interesting than Eddy, the smallmouth bass that nests right next to the
    dock every spring and attacks anybody who wades within 5 feet of his
    nest. Eddy bites a visiting kid at least once every year. The kid then
    learns about smallmouth bass nests and territorialism.
    
    Yeah, I fish, too.
    
    BTW, what's a "rogue" snapping turtle? 
    
    John H-C

    	When Cosby said he thought all kids were brain damaged, I don't
    think he meant for the following scenerio:
    
    	Dad: So son, what happened to your toe ?
    	Son: I don't know ?
    	Dad: Well, did you have it when you woke up this morning ?
    	Son: Yes.
    	Dad: Were you dangling your feet on the end of the dock ?
    	Son: Yes.
    	Dad: Did the turtle bite it off ?
    	Son: Yes.
    	Dad: How many times have I told you not to do that ! So, why
    	     did you do it anyway ?
    	Son: I don't know.
    

     rep .175
    
             Awesome point! Kids will do what kids "like to do". Fire and
        water are the two more intriguing thing to kids.  
    
             Pay to remove a turtle..??? ha ha ha right!!!  I don't
       think I know "anyone" that would pay to remove a turtle,, I do
       know someone that hunts these giants and sells them to a 
       local restaurant. He might have been willing to have come to
       your dock and taken care of the turtle for you,, Hey you never
       know, you might of even got a case of beer for it!
    
                                                      K'

 re: 32.* The SONAR topic

 I'd never use the "little fishy" mode on a fishfinder. To me, companies
are using a gimmick to make up for the fact that some fishermen don't know
how to read a SONAR display. This is counter productive, because IMO
a human interpreting a display can be accurate than software saying that
any suspended echo is a "fish," and that by putting little fish on the
screen instead of the mark itself we are discouraging people from learning
how to read the marks. I think this is a dumb idea all around.

 This month's issue of Hawkeye contains a listing of NH's record fish, a
useful resource.

 I noticed that there are two completely open categories: american shad
(min weight 5 lbs) and round whitefish (min 1 lb). Food for thought.

    .77  What does a non software 'enhanced' fish echo look like vs. a
    suspended mass of seaweed or other mid level echo?  I know, fool
    around with your sonar until you learn the difference.  Fine idea
    in theory but in New England watera I generally can't see down more
    than three or four feet so I never do see with my eyes what the
    fish finder saw... so was that blob noise, a fish, seaweed, or
    what?  I thought that the software was set up so that the 'average
    density' of a fish in conjunction with an echo triggers the little
    fishy disply.  I always take the fish display with a grain of salt
    anyway (even in fresh water), smile. 
    
    I have seen side scan sonar ads in marine catalogs lately... that
    is consumer versions of side scan vs. Woods Hole style side scan.
    Anybody have experience/comments with side scan in a consumer 
    applicaton?  Worth the money etc?
    
    Turtles:  I pretty much agree with John H-C.  If there is a wildlife/
    marine hazard you teach the kid how to deal with it rather than auto
    matically eliminating (killing) the hazard.  Dealing with it can simply
    be a matter of avoiding the creature.  This has to be done consistent
    with common sense with the limits subject to individual interpretation.
    
    "No one willing to be paid to move the turtle".  Virtually anything can
    be accomplished with money.  It may not be WORTH the money to the
    person with a 'rogue snapper' under the dock to get the turtle moved
    vs. killing it.  I thought there was an entry about a guy missing some
    fingers who's hobby was dealing with snappers?  I bet he could have
    been persuaded to release it in some wetland where people don't swim
    for a few cases of beer.  The Nat. Park Service relocates 'rogue bears'
    who bother campers don't they, why not a turtle? 
    
    John H/C SEES (as a SCUBA diver) what goes on under our lakes and ponds
    on virtually a daily basis.  Most of us can only guess at the damage
    which has been done to our waterways while he sees alot of it from
    under the surface.  He reports on ghost fishing gear still catching and
    killing fish under the surface months after the gear was lost by the
    fisherman.  And I agree that the life forms (and their state of health)
    in the waterways represent the overall health of that waterway.
    
    Jeff

    Saw the Wahoo II out on Stellwagen Bank, and the name struck me as
    familiar (and not because it is Mark Levesque's nodename). So does the
    Wahoo II belong to one of you guys? If not, can you tell me who it does
    belong to?
    
    Thanks.
    
    John H-C

    John,
    	Well, the Wahoo is the name of a boat captained by a Steve Bielenda
    (sp?) down in the New York area. He does a lot of dive charters to the
    wrecks in the area like the USS San Diego, the U-853, etc. He has been
    featured on "Divers Down" on NESN once or twice and he's usually at the
    annual wreck diving show in Fall River. 
    	Maybe he's got another boat and is running operations in this area
    as well now.
    
    Barry
    

    No, Barry, this Wahoo II looks like a little 25-foot charter. Let's
    leave Steve Bielinda out of here. He gives *all* of scuba diving a bad
    name. 
    
    John H-C

    	Well, you asked where you may have heard the name before. I was
    offering a possible suggestion, that's all. I know nothing of this guy
    except of what I've seen on the tube or read in books. 
    
    Barry
    

    I might know where you've seen the name. George Rohan of the
    Southbridge Boathouse in Concord, MA has a boat named the WAHOO
    (not sure if its WAHOO II or not). If the boat you saw had twin
    merc 200hp outboards, that may have been it. Drive by the boathouse
    and check it out, it should be around.
    
    
    			Steve

David Carroll, the author of the words I reproduced without permission 
in topic 212 (replies .48 through .53), is in his early 40's and lives in Warner, New 
Hampshire. He is an artist who has been studying freshwater turtles 
since he was 8 years old.

The book from which I extracted the text is:

_The Year of the Turtle, A Natural History_ by David M. Carroll

published in 1991 by 
Camden House Publishing, Inc.
Ferry Road
Charlotte, VT 05445

ISBN 0-944475-12-4 (paperback)


I am really sorry I was unable to lay my hands on my copy of this 
book earlier. I have placed David Carroll's account of one snapper 
experience in the string hoping that, if somebody later confronts 
the same concerns that prompted the basenote, that person has the 
opportunity to read the words of a person with more than 30 years of 
experience with snapping turtles.

John H-C

>      Also...percentage doesn't really hack it. 10% of 30 eggs(turtle)
>    would be 3 turtles. 1% of 50,000 eggs(fish) would be 500!!

 You prove my point for me, Jim. The odds of any 1 turtle egg reaching
maturity in your example is 1 in 10, and for fish it's 1 in 100.

 You made the statement that the odds of a fish reaching maturity are
greater than the odds of a turtle, and that is clearly incorrect even
using your own example.

 The Doctah

    Sorry I can't remember where I saw this figure, but I believe the
    percentage for a turtle's surival from egg to adulthood is something
    less than 1%. Most eggs are consumed before hatching by various
    predators, and most of those that survive to breathe the air fall prey
    to birds, raccoons and foxes, and fish, as well as other turtles.
    
    The whole question of whether more of one kind of animal survives than
    of another kind of animal strikes me as fairly spurious. Their cycles
    are completely different, as are their lifespans and their roles in the
    ecosystem. 
    
    JMHO
    
    John H-C

    re: last few in 212
    
    Nope. Snapper young who make it out of the egg are prey to just about
    every creature in the water. The reason you see so "many" large
    snappers is that they are large enough that they don't fear you until
    you encroach on their personal space, in which case they flee unless
    you try to prevent it from doing so.
    
    *I* see *A LOT* more full-grown fish than full-grown turtles, and I
    consider it a lucky sighting to see a snapper.  
    
    I confess that I occasionally go out on the river just hoping to see one.
    
    My daughters have seen lots of full-grown fish, though neither of them
    has seen a snapper yet. They are territorial, as stated elsewhere, so
    where you see one large snapper, you won't see another until you get
    beyond whatever territorial boundaries the various turtles have settled
    on. In the Shawsheen River, these boundaries seem to be either the edge
    of a pool or a bend in the river. Of the 52 young snappers that BC saw,
    I would wager that none reached adulthood. (I consider snapper
    adulthood to be reached some time after 10 years of age.) Remember that
    these creatures have a lifespan as long or longer than most people. 
    
    From my perspective, the thing to remember about these creatures is
    that their "personal space" needs to be respected unless you really
    want to agitate it. I don't understand why people feel the impulse to
    harm a snapper or any other turtle. If you want to enter the food chain
    and eat it, that is one thing, but killing it to have it dead is
    senseless.
    
    This whole string about the snappers was brought back to me the other
    day when NPR reported on a full-grown pike in a British lake. Seems
    this fish has gotten to be about 5 feet long, and the local nature
    types and recreational types as well as the local angler types are out 
    to get it and kill it.
    
    Seems the nature types are upset because the pike is consuming water
    fowl, the recreational types are afraid the fish will consume their
    kids, and the local angler types are bothered because they think it eats
    all the fish they feel it's their right to catch. So, there's this fish
    that happens to have reached adulthood, and it's a monster that needs
    to be killed.
    
    So the lake nurtured an aquatic beast that has survived to its
    "rightful" dimensions, and it becomes a target for eradication
    treatment instead of a miracle that occurred despite human proximity.
    
    I guess the same thing is happening to sharks on a larger scale, so
    I really shouldn't be surprised.
    
    Why is that a successful wildlife predator is viewed by so many people
    as a menace rather than a wonder to admire?
    
    John H-C  

>    The whole question of whether more of one kind of animal survives than
>    of another kind of animal strikes me as fairly spurious.

 Spurious? Mebbe you mean specious.

>Nice p-name, Mark

 It was my own, not that of another creature, if it makes you feel any better.

    By any chance is that Pike's name Nessie?
    
                                              wayne

    I agree, I added a note just to see if the notes file was working..

    
    I traded my fishing pole in for my shotgun last September. Maybe that's
    what's on everybody elses mind too?
    
    Walt

NOPE....

	NO STIFF WATER YET, SO I'M

	
			G-O-N-E  F-I-S-H-I-N-G ! ! !


joe

Picked this off of internet rec.outdoors.fishing .....

Of primary interest to me was the observation concerning WD40 but I include the
entire posting as the fishing sounded good too .....

---- %< ---- cut here ---- %< ---- cut here ---- %< ---- cut here ---- %< ----
From nntpd.lkg.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!nuntius Tue Nov 10 10:22:34 EST 1992
Article: 1082 of rec.outdoors.fishing
Path: sniff.wfo.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!nuntius
From: [email protected] (Robert Drongowski)
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing
Subject: STEELHEAD
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 10 Nov 92 13:34:57 GMT
Organization: Pediatric Surgery, U of Michigan
Lines: 29
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1b2
Nntp-Posting-Host: no-name-surgery.med.umich.edu

Here is my cost and results regarding steelhead fishing this past weekend
in Frankfort, Michigan.  Total trip time by car was 4.5 hours,
oneway.
	Weather was snow flurries, high temperature was 34 degrees.
Lost 1 salmon, and one steelhead broke line and proceeded to jump
3 times afterward trying to shake the lure which was obviously
in it's mouth.  Boated 3 fish.
	Here is the breakdown:
	Semi-Cheap Motel; 2 Nights       104.00
	Gasoline                                        45.00
	1 lost Lure (Flatfish)                     5.00

	Total:                                      $154.00

	3 Steelhead boated per 6 hours of fishing=2 hours/fish

$51.33/steelhead or $25.66 dollars/hour fished

Observations:

1.  Wish I made $25.00/hour at work,
2.  WD-40 worked.  I caught all these fish after
    spraying my lure.  Fished 1/2 time without spraying,
    and 1/2 time after spraying lure.
3.  It was COLD, slow fishing, but really exciting catching these fish.
4.  Steelhead fishermen are crazy.
5.  Thank God I was fishing and wasn't forced to watch Dallas vs Detroit

BOB DRONGOWSKI--"ICE FISHING IS REALLY A MISNOMER, MOST OF THE TIME"  The
Polish Fisherman
---- %< ---- cut here ---- %< ---- cut here ---- %< ---- cut here ---- %< ----
---

Joe Whittemore - From where the Westfield
                      Meets the Westfield
                         By the Westfield
                            In Huntington (MA)

                      [email protected]  
                 [ jdw%[email protected] ]

    
    Somebody ask DonMac about the deer he almost bagged this morning.
    Unfortunately, the guy in the Saab 900 one car in front of him
    bagged it first.
    
    Rick_who_was_3_cars_behind

 I hope it was bigger than the fawn he took on Wednesday... ;-)

    On the way in today on 119 in groton a beautiful buck, maybe a 200lber, 
    possibly a 10ptr, jumped across the road in front of the car in front
    of me. The guy was able to slow down a fair amount, but still hit it,
    the buck  rolled over the hood, landed in front of me, jumped up and
    bolted into the woods.  Beautiful animal.  Last Tuesday a nice doe
    jumped out in front of my truck in Milford NH, I was able to stop in
    plenty of time.  Last weds a small doe (hey, it didn't have spots!8^)
    walked underneath my treestand in Milford NH, she's at the butcher's 
    now...
    
    -donmac

Hmmm...

I've eaten vension, but never BAMBI!

    
    
    
              Now thats huntin!

    Hell sitting in the LKG caferteria we watch a couple of deer walk down
    the hill.  Then going home on 495 spotted a doe and her fawn in the
    medium.   They really know where hunting is not allowed.

    Gee, so how many of you fisherman/hunters head up to Vermont in the
    Spring for the annual pike hunt?

> Last weds a small doe (hey, it didn't have spots!8^)
>    walked underneath my treestand in Milford NH, she's at the butcher's 
>    now...

 No spots, eh? Nothing like what a little brown magic marker can do, huh, Don?

 <snicker>

 Doctah, going out again on sunday. I hope I see the same deer I saw last sunday!

    Last two days i've been fishing at lunch in Boxboro and both days I've
    seen a buck in the field next to the pond. It's at the end of swanson
    rd if there are any bowers out there..
    
    Just a f.y.i.

<    Hell sitting in the LKG caferteria we watch a couple of deer walk down
<    the hill.  Then going home on 495 spotted a doe and her fawn in the
<    medium.   They really know where hunting is not allowed.
	       ----------------------------------------------

    Being on the "median" wouldn't help them much here in California, hell on
the Freeway it's always open season...

Al

    I am looking for a rod and gun club in the worcester area, anyone know
    or belong to one?  Also what do you get with the membership.
    
    I am interested in target shooting, both pistol and skeet as well as
    fishing.
    
    Brian
    
    Mark if there is a topic already feel free to move this.

    
    Brian
    
    If your looking to shoot skeet, and not trap, forget Singletary
    try Riverside in Hudson or Marlbro Rod and Gun.
    
    Riverside shoots skeet at 9:00 am Sunday morning and I beleive have a
    indoor pistol range. Have been trying to get over there on sunday mornings
    myself but just haven't had the time as yet.
    
    
    Dick
    

    Deity! It's quiet in here.
    
    I've only been visiting here for a couple years or so, and maybe a
    November lull is normal, but it *does* seem like none of you other
    water people are getting near the water anymore.
    
    I looked through ELF for a couple of what-I-think-of-as regulars a
    little while ago, and if ELF is at all up to date, they're still
    around. 
    
    Anybody else out there entering 
    
    notes fi
    
    during a long compile and feeling a nudge of disappointment that
    nobody's said anything new in FISHING-V2?
    
    BTW, I met an angler from this file some time last week. It was great to
    sit and learn while he talked. Imagine that! Face-to-face conversation
    a couple of orders of magnitude more informative than e-mail or
    notes!?!?
    
    Still, I miss something to read between checks on sparkl_sys$batch.
    
    John H-C ... whiling away a Sunday evening ...
           

    Whew! Must have been pretty out of it last night. *Today* is Sunday. That's
    why there aren't more people hanging around the office....

    
    
    I agree that it is quiet!!!
    
    The bass file has been the same way!
    
    I suggested in that file that I could start
    retelling stories of all the fish I caught 
    this year. That started them all talking again
    just to shut me up ;-)
    
    chet (a.k.a. Gerb)
    
    
    
    
    

	I agree it's been quiet in here.
	As for me I missed 3 weekends trying to go fishing.
	All due to car problems.  I still don't have mine back.

	I winterized the "FishTeaser" this weekend.
	I wanted two consecutive day's of warm weather to assure good
	water drainage from the motor after the winterizing process.

	I was so bored not being able to fish I just worked on all the
	equip in preperation for my late March early April launch.
	Everything's ready to go.  I even have next year's trailer
	registration/sticker done.

	I am going to the Cape for "T"day so I'll be bringing my poles
	down to check out the surf action.  My brother-in-law gives me
	grief if I don't bring my own gear down.  I'm sure he'll ask
	why I didn't bring the "FishTeaser" with me.  He most likely
	has taken his 26'er out by now?  Then again.....I can always hope.

	I also have been out of this file due to some hectic work related stuff.
	Don't you hate it when that happens!!!

	-< Tuna Tail >- 

    Jack ---
    
    I'd be happy to enter any definitions that would make 244.0 easier to
    understand. I was really unaware of using jargon -- for which I
    apologize. Anyway, if there is something in there that doesn't make
    sense, could you please let me know?
    
    Thanks.
    
    John H-C

    When is Dec coming out with the quarter results that ends today
    (12-31-92)?

    The reports we write are not intended to accuse any particular party. I
    posted the Walden report draft in this conference because I thought it
    would interest some of the folks who frequent this file.
    
    We just describe what we see, and when we can pinpoint a source or an
    aberration or have a clear reason to suspect a certain source, we say
    what it is or what we think it is.
    
    All but one or two of the things described in the report have been
    photographed or videotaped, and those things that haven't been captured
    on film were corroborated by the other divers who participated in the
    surveys.
    
    I didn't post 244.0 to offend anybody.
    
    John H-C

 John,

 A suggestion if I may. This is the fishing note. There are
alot of fisherman in this file. Your constant blanketing of
"fisherman" as a whole group of people all-in-the-same context
is a biased viewpoint of yours.
 I am a fisherman and respect the environment. I don't do 
anything you describe by your "fisherman". As I'm sure most
people in this particular conference do not fit in your blanket
discription of fisherman.
 People that do what you describe , to me , are not fisherman
but, simply people who don't give a $h!t. Unfortunately in
this society were stuck with everyone.
 So, to get to my point. I , and I'm sure I'm not the only one,
wish you would refrain from the complete miss-use of the word
fisherman. I think you should use "Careless individuals" instead
beacuse to be honest John, "Fisherman" very rarely do what
you say, but instead take the rap for the careless people of the 
world.

 - Dave 

    Can someone tell me who the moderator for the Bass_fishing notesfile
    is. I must have forgot to pay my membership dues because since last
    week everytime I try to log in I get "You are not a member of this 
    conference."
    
    Thanks, 
    
    Steve

    	Gary Mattson	BIGQ::MATTSON  225-6648
    	Ray Tadry	BIGQ::TADRY  225-5691
    
    					B.C.

    	Steve,
    
    	Either DEMING::MATTSON or DEMING::TADRY.   Until they get 
    	HERMES::GINGRAS as a member, you could use JUPITR::GINGRAS - that 
    	node/user is a member.
    
    	Moe

>>A suggestion if I may. This is the fishing note. There are
>>alot of fisherman in this file. Your constant blanketing of
>>"fisherman" as a whole group of people all-in-the-same context
>>is a biased viewpoint of yours.

Don't assume that I mean every fisherman when I use the word "fisherman."
Nobody but fishermen leave lures that catch and kill fish. Nobody but 
fishermen prods the state into releasing foreign fish into New England ponds, 
lakes, streams, and rivers. Nobody but fishermen lose fishing rods and reels. 

This does not mean that nobody but fishermen leave trash, nor does it
mean that nobody but fishermen stir up the bottom so that it destroys
the native vegetation and the habitat it would provide.

>>I am a fisherman and respect the environment. I don't do 
>>anything you describe by your "fisherman". As I'm sure most
>>people in this particular conference do not fit in your blanket
>>discription of fisherman.

There is nothing blanket about my use of the word fisherman, at least not in 
my mind. Much of what I have learned about fish has been learned from 
fishermen, and I am very appreciative. I assume that most of the people in the 
FISHING notes conference care about the health of the waters they visit, and 
that is why I occasionally enter reports that I think might be of interest.

I *could* use the word "people" instead of "fishermen," but who would think I 
were referring to people in general instead of fishermen? In normal 
conversation, most of us use the words "people" as in "I don't understand why 
people do X," where the behavior exhibited by X is clearly something distinct 
from the behavior of either of the interlocutors.

I stay out of flame fests as a matter of personal policy, and I certainly 
would not have entered the Walden draft report in the FISHING notes file if I 
meant it as a flung gauntlet.

>>People that do what you describe , to me , are not fisherman
>>but, simply people who don't give a $h!t. Unfortunately in
>>this society were stuck with everyone.

Unfortunately, these people are allowed to fish the same waters you are.
One of our reasons for existence is to make people aware of the damage done 
by these people, with the distant hope that we may make some of them stop 
hurting things they are unaware of.

>>So, to get to my point. I , and I'm sure I'm not the only one,
>>wish you would refrain from the complete miss-use of the word
>>fisherman. I think you should use "Careless individuals" instead
>>beacuse to be honest John, "Fisherman" very rarely do what
>>you say, but instead take the rap for the careless people of the 
>>world.

I don't misuse it. Everybody who picks up a rod and reel and tries to capture 
a fish is a fisherman. It is nothing short of a shame that so many fishermen 
-- in fact the vast majority -- do exactly what you quite honorably think they 
don't. One of the reasons I visit the FISHING notes file is because there are
indeed a lot of fishermen in there who are not responsible for so much of the
angler/ignorance-induced damage that the DES so often encounters. 

It might interest you that approximately 40% of the participating DES members 
are active anglers, and they participate for the simple reason that they see 
the damage other less thoughtful fishermen cause.

>> - Dave 


Now, here is a breakdown of the probable sources of the damage listed in the
Walden article. How much do you see as coming from the fishermen and how much
from others?


>>* The fish he knew have long since been removed and replaced.

Responsible Party: The Commonwealth of Massachusetts Division Fisheries & 
Wildlife. The people directly responsible for clearing out the fish and 
replacing them will now, in private conversation, regret ever having done so.

>>* The shoreline vegetation -- blueberry bushes and reeds -- is long gone.

Responsible Party: The Emerson family, for treating the pond as a moneymaking 
operation and then donating it to the state to take care of after stipulating 
that the entire pond be available for public swimming and fishing.

>>* The ducks, geese, minks, and muskrats no longer visit.

Responsible Party: The Emerson family, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and 
the swimmers.

* The turtles, tortoises, and frogs are nowhere to be seen.

Responsible Party: The loss of shoreline vegetation, see above.


>>This shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody. The pond has been used 
>>and "managed" since before Thoreau began taking notes, and the reasons for 
>>that use and need for that management are more apparent today than they ever 
>>were: Walden is the only body of clear, cold water in northeastern 
>>Massachusetts open to the public for recreation. The pond most like it, 
>>White Pond (also is Concord), is surrounded by private homes and offers only 
>>a few yards of public access to anglers and swimmers. Walden is a magnet, >>and it draws thousands of visitors daily. The aquatic or terrestrial habitat >>that could endure this much attention, regardless of how benign, simply >>doesn't exist. 

Responsible Party: This is pretty self-evident, isn't it? Fishermen are not 
singled out at all. The problem here is a cultural question over whether 
nature should be treated as a theme park exclusively for human recreation. The 
state of Walden Pond testifies to the damage such treatment entails.

>>There is nothing wild about Walden now, nor will there ever be again. 
>>It is a large swimming pool, a put-and-take fishing park, a place to stroll 
>>among the trees and marvel at the hordes drawn to this water.

Does this make you feel bad about Walden or the public's attitude and usage
of it? It certainly wasn't meant to insult fishermen.

>>One memory encapsulates the entire exercise. It was our second dive, and 
>>Dennis Sevene had joined us for the first time. Dennis' enthusiasm for this 
>>survey had formed long before the DES. As a child, he often visited Walden 
>>with his father to fish, and he had wanted to dive its clear waters for as 
>>long as he could remember. Halfway through that dive, I came across Dennis 
>>on the other side of the pond, where he was photographing everything that 
>>broke the monotony of the silt. We swam over to shallow water and stood up 
>>to talk. When I asked him what he thought, he looked at me for a little bit 
>>before saying, "People are such *pigs!*" 

Here it, the real reason, is: people. Dennis is a successful, self-employed 
woodworker. His interest in wildlife began as a child in the company of his 
father, hunting and fishing.  He has watched the outdoors he loved as a child 
disappear, poisoned or "developed." He always regarded Walden Pond as one last 
pure place. His anger toward the public in general has surfaced on several 
other occasions, but usually it is an anger marinated in disappointment. At 
Walden, he was just plain upset. His was the kind of disallusionment you see 
when a golden idol is dashed on the floor and shown to be gilt lead.

>>The disappointment, the disgust, the anger, the *shock* expressed with those 
>>few words mirrored my own feelings about Walden at the time. Walden Pond 
>>made White Pond -- until then one of the most trashed bodies of still water 
>>I had ever seen -- look clean.

Responsible Party: People

>>Above the band of vegetation on the shallow shelf of the shoreline, 
>>the bottom is sand and silt-covered rock. The sand and silt there is 
>>frequently disturbed, presumably by bathers. Other than a few clumps of 
>>sparsely scattered quilwort, there is no vegetation in the water shallow 
>>enough to wade in. 

Responsible Party: Swimmers/waders

>>On the north side of the pond, we came across a path 
>>through the nitella about 10 feet wide. It looked as if somebody slid 
>>straight down the wall with a bulldozer. The terrain above this spot showed 
>>no detectable sign of what might have caused this break in the band of 
>>nitella, which was the only thing other than trash that was consistent 
>>around the entire pond. 

Responsible Party: We have no clue

>>The ubiquitous smallmouth bass provided us with a new insight. Until we 
>>explored Walden, we had thought of the words "ghost gear" as applying to 
>>saltwater only. Only two or three of the nine divers who participated in 
>>this survey failed to see a smallmouth bass hooked on a lost lure attached 
>>to a sunken branch. 

Responsible Party: Fishermen

>>We also encountered large circles of dead nitella apparently caused by 
>>anchors, which in dropping to the bottom would crush the nitella directly 
>>underneath and coat the surrounding nitella with silt, effectively cutting 
>>off its access to light.

Responsible Party: Whoever drops anchors in Walden Pond, presumably fishermen.



Dave, I just don't see a "blanketing of fishermen" here. I'm sorry if you were 
offended.


John H-C

I know some of you are into hunting, so maybe you can help me.

I've been trying to get into the FIREARMS conference on LOSER::, but I 
can't gain access.  Is this the correct node?  Is the conference restricted 
to after-hours access?

Thanks...

Joe

    
    
    The Gill man in two conferences---
    
    how exciting!!!!!! :-|
    
    gerb
    

                  It is now on SIETTG::
    
                         
                      Bob

    re;15
    isnt that what that guy used for his wife, a shredder??
    
    cutting fish should'nt be a problem..
    
    hey Gerb XOXOX
    
    						Gill_Raker

    
    re:-1
    
    Joe
    
    FIREARMS conference on SIETTG::FIREARMS
    
    
    Dick
    

    
    The wife through the wood chipper occurred in the 
    town next to me when I lived in Ct. He did in fact
    aim the chipper into the water,(needed a chain saw
    for the larger parts first). 
    
    He should have the same address for the next few years-
    he might even share the "juicey" details :-(
    
    gerb(who won't fish that lake) 
    

    
     JohnHC,
      
     As I said in my off-line message to you , quite a dissortation to
    reply to my message. I like the title of this note. I'm sure everything I 
    write the MOD will put here anyway. Actually I've been back for 5 months 
    now. Just had enough of you and had to comment. Please publish my off-line 
    reply here as well seeing yours is there. Also, you must have a nice job
    to be able to write that much during working hours. My boss would
    probably give me a boot for spending that much time during the day 
    on "fun" notesfiles. Well, I'll leave you guy's alone for now. Hope
    to see most of you on the COD TRIP.
    
     Happy New year,
    
     - Dave
          

    The ice on the water's getting to everybody!
    <grins>

    
    Don't let'um get to ya John, keep the info comming.
    
    And if you ever get to do any diving in southern worc.
    county give me a call.  I'll go with ya. Probably my son
    and a couple of cousins too.  Lately (past 3 years) time's
    been hard to find for playing with the toys.
    
    Fred

 Fred,

 Do you think John will stop writing because a few
of us have expressed our opinions of his opinions.
 I don't think so...

 I boat alot in the southern Worc area. I always seem
to get those flags you divers use mixed up with the 
national flag of Liberia... You know even the captain 
of the Valdez had trouble with something as simple as
red flashing reef markers... and he was driving a bigger 
boat. Sure will try to brush up on those flags this 
winter. The only ones I've studied lately are small
orange ones that when erect usually indicate the existance
of a fish underneath the hole I cut in the ice.  
Sure comforting to know they let people like me 
operate boats that push 80mph...
 

 - Wood-man

    
    80 MPH huh?  Who "let's" you ?   :^)
    
    I didn't think John would stop, maybe slow down a bit.
    Just givvin'im a little encouragement.
    
    I've been thinkin'a diggin' out the hardwater fishin' gear
    and givvin' it a whack. Been 3 years. (at least!)
    
    Hey John, I'm workin' on an idea of how to get the chainsaw
    to run underwater. Wanna test it on the next boat that uses
    "THE FLAG" as a turning marker??  8=)))))))
    
    Fred

re: Salmon River Native Steelhead
    Weight:   13.5 lbs.
    Length:   32"

 Nice fish!

>When he finally came in, Coots pointed out
>    that he had sperm on his flanks from the exertion, and I told him
>    that may have been me, I got a little excited out there.

 :-) <snort!>

    Yeah great catch I can only imagine what a fight that must have been in
    current with light tackle.
    
    Brian

Hey Wierdsom...



			S T U F F   I T  ! ! !    

    
    
    	add on to re. .235
    
    
    
    			S I D E W A Y S ! ! !
    
    your friend Gitzit'
    		

    re: 58.73
    
    Ok, here's where you can tell us about Ziggy.
    
    Inquiring minds want to know!

    I can't even discuss "ZIGGY" here, without violating about every
    Digital AND FCC reg there is...
    
    
    Suffice it to say that when one of the guys pulled up his line to
    check his bait, he had hooked quite a catch...it was captured on film,
    so maybe sometime this summer if a bunch of noters show up for a 
    blue/striper run the secret will be revealed...
    
    

    Caught a diver, eh?

    
    
    didn't catch a diver, but one of the guys (the one who brought "ziggy"
    along is a diver, and we thought about the fun you could have with 20
    houses worth of lines hanging down...like maybe tieing on that frozen
    bluefish that was making the rounds up at the winnie derby...
    
    I also meant to include some smelt "stats" for you, john.  I think that 
    females outnumbered males by probably 3:1, as opposed to two weeks ago
    when  the ratio was much closer to 1:1.  Females were all FULL of roe,
    and ranged in size from 4" to 10" cows.  Even the 4" were
    full...females must run later than males?  Seemed strange, as I would
    think they would travel "together", especially during spawning
    season...
    
    
    jim

    Well, spawning won't happen for another two months, actually. I imagine
    it was just random population configuration that changed the
    male::female ratio. I doubt the fish are aware of any gender
    distinctions quite yet.
    
    John H-C

    Does anybody know what node the PHOTO notes file lives on these days?
    
    Would you mind telling me what the address is?
    
    Would you tell me what the address is, please?
    
    What's the address?
    
    Thanks.
    
    John H-C

    Photographers Forum                        EASYNET_CONFERENCES #139
    
    File Name: GEOFF::PHOTO
    DNS Name:
    
    Title:  Photography and related topics
    Notice: For Sale:#962; Registry:#857; Directory:#1111; Addresses:#1189
    
    Moderator: ROYALT::FINGERHUT
    Created:  5-FEB-1986 16:03              Revised: 25-FEB-1993 12:09
    Topic Notes:    2803                    Total Entries:   24682
    
                                           Hows that bud!!!
     
                                                  Your pal 
                                                         Kiv

    Thank you, sir!

    I remember that at least one guy who visits this file is widely
    regarded as an expert on the Assabet River. Would he please send me
    e-mail? I have a number of questions about it and its history.
    
    Just in case he is too modest to label himself an "expert," would any
    of you who knows somebody very knowledegable about the Assabet send me
    mail telling me who that person is and how to get in touch with him or
    her?
    
    Thanks.
    
    John H-C

    
     Yoo H-C !!
    
        Your question being in the Rathole area I'm not sure if
     your serious or your just giving me the ole' pork-ka-roo!!  What
     information exactly are you looking for?? I know some about it. If
     your looking into diving it, I think you'ld find it a little boring.
    
        Fire away (easy bazooka joe) give me your TOP 5 questions. I'll
     poke a stick at them.
                                                      Kiv 

    1. Which towns have NPDES sites? 
    2. Where *are* those discharge sites?
    3. Does anybody such as a rod & gun club have a vested interest in the
    health of the Assabet?
    4. Does anybody other than OAR do any rescue-the-river work?
    5. Was there any local reaction to last year's news about tributaries
    to the Assabet being polluted with mercury? 
    
    
    There they are, my top five.
    
    Thanks.
    
    John H-C

    Mr Moderator, how come EVERY Monday morning, the directory and its 
    80 replies keeps coming up unseen?
    
    bob
    

 Glad you asked. Every weekend a procedure is run which examines all of the
keywords in the file and generates a directory of the file by keyword.
I had been a little lax in applying keywords to basenotes, and your prompting
got me a round tuit. Now you'll have even more unseens on monday, because I
added a few more keywords. :-)

 The reason this directory exists is to facilitate access to the information
you want. You can also access notes directly by keywords, but checking
through the ready made directories is faster in many cases. One would hope
that some effort is made to eliminate duplicate topics by checking first before
writing, and we try to make it as easy as possible to do that.

I really like the keyword directory.  I wish there was one in the other 
conferences that I frequent.  Keep up the good work, I don't mind hiting next
unseen.

Gordon

    
    Dave Rainville my poor misguied friend a.k.a. MORON! Let em explain
    a couple things to you. In case you have'nt noticed your wife is
    pregnant, THAT means the things you "get" to do now are going to
    change. Let me explain:
    
    You will "get" up for the 2 a.m. feeding
    You will "get" peed on
    You will "get" to change LOTS of soiled diapers
    You will "get" hurled on
    You will "get" no sleep
    
    As for catching anything, the only thing you'll catch is HELL from
    your wife if you even remotley suggest the idea that you would like
    to get away from her and the baby for awhile and go fishing!
    
    You can thank me for the warning later
    
    Walt

    Dave, take it from Walt he knows. He's as hen-pecked as any man can
    get. The only reason he can get out fishing once in a great while is when 
    his wife throws him out of the house! 

    Walt, a person who lives in a glass house should not throw stones.

    Gus :{)
    

    
    
    
    		Gee Wally!
    
    		I think Gus said it all! Thanx Gus. Thats right Wally
    		my wife is pregnant and you know what that means right?
    		It means there will be one more person in this world
    		that will be able out fish you!! It's pretty sad when one
    		must resort to childish acts such as name calling when
    		someone happens to mention your ability to fish isn't
    		up to par. Rumor has it you could catch a fish at the
    		hatchery.
    
    		P.S. Have a nice day!
    
    		DR

    fyi- a MORON is a MOstly Read Only Noter. HTH.  
    

    I am looking for a GIF file that was posted in this conference about a
    year or so ago.  It was of a small mouth and a large mouth bass.  Does
    anybody know where it can be found or have it on there system.  I would
    appreciate any info.  
    
    Les

    
    Les,
    
            ADD ENTRY  WAHOO::FISHING
    
    
               This will let you access the version 1 of FISHING notesfile.
    
    
                                                             Guy
    

    I looked there and could not locate it in that one either.
    
    Les

    
     How hard did you look? I found it in about 10 minutes. Now
     go back and try again.
    
                                           Murph

I've got the images on tape and will put them in my fal$server directory if
there's still interest........... LargeMouth.GIF SmallMouth.GIF RatherBe.GIF
and OpeningDay.GIF

---

Joe Whittemore - From where the Westfield
                      Meets the Westfield
                         By the Westfield
                            In Huntington (MA)

                      [email protected]  
                 [ jdw%[email protected] ]

              $COPY DVLP23::DVLP23$DKA300:[FAL$SERVER]*.GIF []


                          After hours please..........

           I'll leave the images there for a week or longer......
---

Joe Whittemore - From where the Westfield
                      Meets the Westfield
                         By the Westfield
                            In Huntington (MA)

                      [email protected]  
                 [ jdw%[email protected] ]

>but if last
>    year was an indicator Steve is right on the money, I'll be
>    Stripper fishing early this season :-(

 Stripper fishing? What do you do, troll dollar bills? ;^)

>    The fish, itself, is not a favorite of mine.  I do keep one per year
>    which I smoke and then nibble on from time-to-time.  Smoked, I like
>    it a lot but there still are LOTS of bones.

 Don't the bones poke through the papers when you roll 'em? ;^)

 It's been too long, Coonass! Don't be such a stranger!

    Wit a name lak dat, chew be a welcum site don were I com frum!!!
    
    Coonass

>I have taken the liberty of deleting my previous notes 

 Boo Hiss!

Hey, Rocco...

		DON'T USE A GUN OR MURPH WILL PROTEST!

(heh...heh...)

-HSJ-

    
     Quit pistol grip!
    
           why do I still like you,,
    
                        Can't wait for stumpfield!!!

    
    
    It is the LEGENDS BIRTHDAY (John Waters) tomorrow May 7th and he
    
    would like from all his fishing pals. He has been on a diet for
    
    eight weeks and has put on 45 pounds, he looks great!
    
    There will be a coming out party for him in the fall, so stay tuned.
    
    
    Send Birthday messages to  DOOVAX::WATERS
     

    That's got to be the most concise reply I've ever seen in FISHING.
    
    <g>

>>                      <<< Note 22.273 by SPARKL::JOHNHC >>>
>>                     -< Did you all notice reply 164.48? >-

>>    That's got to be the most concise reply I've ever seen in FISHING.
    
>>    <g>



Yup, I think it was a total brain dump!


Typical of TBDW.

    	You'd have to know him....  He just told us everything he knows
    	about shad fishing....
    					(Add appropriate grins)
    						B.C.

and more than he knows about launching/retrieving boats at a ramp...

    Ah yes  Manchaug 1988...

Where's Ranger Ron when you need him...

Al

    How many of you Massachusetts folks know that it is illegal to drive
    your boat faster than headway speed within 150 feet of shore on any
    river in Massachusetts?
    
    I've listened to people complain to me about bass boats and jet skis
    ever since we started the Concord River Project. They've also been
    telling me about a whole host of other social problems I was unaware
    of.
    
    Anyway, it's occurred to me that most people who own bass boats
    probably don't even know about the law. Since none of the towns can
    afford enforcement officers for their sections of the river, none of
    the "scofflaws" get official notice of their transgression. So how
    would they know?
    
    So, I'd like to know, is it news to any of you that it is illegal to go
    faster then headway speed within 150 feet of shore?
    
    Thanks.
    
    John H-C

John,

I believe the same law exists in NH.  So, by the strictest interpretation 
of the law, that means folks who fish rivers less than 300' wide cannot run 
a top speed.  Yes?

It's also intersesting to note that "headway speed" means a speed where 
little or NO WAKE is created, but most folks proceed at a speed (1/4 
throttle or so) where the bow of the boat is up in the air and their wake 
is, in fact, BIGGER than if they were up on plane.

-Joe-

    
    'Ey, "Tail" !!
    
    Now whuddaya think ole Chargogg'n Manchaug've got ramps for, huh???
    
    Some childrens people, Honestly!!     :^))))))))
    
    Fred   (Who wishes he had time to even enjoy such aggravation)  :^)

    re: 22.279
    
    Well, in fact it means that Concord River is off limit to bass boats
    except for a couple of 100-yard stretches unless those boats are going
    at headway speed. The river is full of them every day of the week
    blasting along at full throttle. They're roundly hated by everybody but
    each other. 
    
    I'm just curious about how many *know* they're breaking the law, or if
    anybody is even aware of the law.
    
    John H-C

    So John, your implying that ONLY "bassboats" go faster than headway speed
    on this river?  Somehow I doubt it...
    
    A similar law states the same for going near another boat (in NH
    anyway). 
    
    Most watercops tend to enforce these rules only when people are, in
    their opinion, being reckless.
    
    Most of our rivers would be no wake zones otherwise...
    
    -donmac

<    So, I'd like to know, is it news to any of you that it is illegal to go
<    faster then headway speed within 150 feet of shore?
    
    That lesson cost me $40, courtesy of the CT Environmental Police...

"Mister, you can't go through here on-plane it's less than 300' across, and
oh by the way don't use the 'I live in MA' excuse, their rules are the same."

Al

    I've been at the Beford boat launch on the Concord River when the 
    Marine Patrol (or whatever they've called in MA) were there at the
    same time as water skiers.  And they seemed to co-exist peacefully,
    the officer didn't bother anyone as long as they were skiing and
    operating safely.
    
    I do notice this trend of ragging on anyone who makes noise or a 
    ripple in the water starting to pick up again.  I guess it's the
    season.  I'm not so sure it's fair to single out "bass boats", 
    since they are far from being the only ones on the river, or 
    travelling above headway speed.  Those boats do come in handy 
    when cleanup services are needed though, eh?
    
    Rick

    Can I ask the incredibly dumb question as to why bass boats carry so
    much power?   (The only bass fishing I know anything about is Saltwater
    striped bass).

    Jim, I believe bass boats came out of tournament bass fishing on very
    large resevoirs where all boats had to start at the same time and
    place, speed became important.  You can quickly get to the best fishing
    (always at the other end :-)) and get an advantage by spending more
    time fishing and less time riding.   They have long since become
    very popular everywhere, included places where I don't see the need
    for the extra power.
    
    Of course, I do my bass fishing (also striped) with a 15 hp on an
    aluminum boat.  Very low tech, but occasionally effective :-)
    
    Mark,
    

    .-1 was right.  Big motors give fisherman the ability to cover many
    miles of water quickly, which is epsecially important during
    tournaments where you may be launching 10 miles from where you want to
    fish.  The longer it takes you to get there the less time you have to
    fish.  A big motor combined with a big boat allows us to get there 
    quickly and safely. 
    
    -donmac (20' 200HP Ranger bassboat 8^)

    re: .282
    
    Legally, most of our Massachusetts rivers *are* no wake zones.
    
    That's a fact. The other fact is that the state, the counties, and the
    towns are too close to bankruptcy to afford the enforcement that would
    reap a mint in speeding fines on the river.
    
    John H-C

    re: .284
    
    Rick --
    
    You didn't say what year you saw what you said you saw.
    
    I figure it must have been a long time ago, since barely anybody can
    remember when there was a version of the Marine Patrol on the Concord
    River. The law affecting legal speed on the river is fairly recent
    (last decade or so), for one thing, and another thing is that the
    people who enforce the laws often don't know the law or are willing to
    overlook infractions by people who share their enthusiasms.
    
    A Marine Patrol officer who enjoys water skiing would not likely
    disturb water skiiers on the river if he thought, personally, that
    water skiing was a fine activity on the river. I make this remark about
    law enforcement types because I live in Middlesex County, which has
    some of the most absurdly ineffective law enforcement personnel
    anywhere. The EPO for the area covering the Shawsheen and Concord
    Rivers is a ghost employee. I've never seen him, let alone met him,
    though I have tried to reach him and know for a fact that a lot of
    people have told him he should get in touch with me.
    
    Seems he likes to hunt and fish and thinks a lot of this concern about
    the state of the environment is bunch of hooey. In fact, he gives a bad
    name to people who hunt and fish.
    
    John H-C

    Well, if you want a 19 foot bass boat, you CANT buy it with less than a
    150. At least mine you cant. Might cost you more to have them rig it
    up. Well lets just say maybe you can, but *I* wont..  :^)  :^)
    John how wide is the river where you observe this? Is it 'close'
    to 300? 
    I fish in NH and the Merrimack in over 300 feet. I have seen the patrol
    there stopping people who are blasting too close or not slowing when
    passing. 
    The other thing, if I am stopped to fish, I would RATHER have them up on 
    full plane than off plane as was stated before. NO ONE knows what headway 
    speed is, the wake is made worse. My experience is that it is not always 
    bass boats. 

    "Headway Speed" means "No Wake," more specifically the SLOW "No Wake"
    as opposed to the high-speed wakeless forward progress.
    
    "Headway Speed" is used to avoid the semantic quibbling so often
    brought up by people with powerful boats that leave almost no wake when
    the boats are going full-speed on the plane.
    
    The river, in this case the Concord River, is nowhere near 300 feet
    wide most of its length. There are a couple short stretches where it
    may actually be as wide as 300 feet, but few boats could get up on
    plane in that short distance.
    
    Today I was in a section of the river that I know to be 120 feet across
    because two years ago we marked off an area of the bottom there with
    100-foot lengths of rope that left 10 feet to shore at either end. A
    bass boat came through at half-throttle trailing a foot-high wake. I
    can't believe he that guy knew what the law is.
    
    The Merrimack and the Connecticut are the only two rivers I can think
    of in northern New England that have long stretches that would allow
    bass boats, jet skis, and ski boats to go faster than headway speed.
    
    The Merrimack does indeed have enforcement officers. The Merrimack
    River Watershed Council has been phenomenally successful in their
    pursuit of river protection. Maybe we'll get that far on the Concord
    River some day.
    
    John H-C

 re: 297.*

 Maybe if you'd caught a fish during the time your rod was discharging, it
would have been cooked by the time you got it boatside. ;-)

    Any fishermen who use the public boat ramp on the Concord River 
    at route 225 in Bedford MA, would be wise to check the last couple
    days discussion in note 1052 of the VICKI::BOATS conference.
    
    It seems that because someone dumped trash at the ramp after a
    recent DES sponsored cleanup, it is now the stated goal of the
    DES to close this ramp, and any other ramps in the state that
    us powerboaters and fishermen are using as a dumpster while
    launching and retrieving our boats.
    
    Rick

    Rick ---
    
    You're jumping off the deep end. I have never stated that I had plans
    to close the ramp at 225. The ramp and surrounding area being closed
    off is in Billerica at the Old Middlesex Turnpike Bridge abutment.
    
    Dumping at the 225 ramp has not been a problem on a scale even remotely
    approaching the problem at the Old Middlesex Turnpike Bridge abutment.
    
    C'mon, Rick.
    
    John H-C

John,
Come on you say??  Please don't tell me I misunderstood or that you've 
been misquoted, as you are once again doing here and in note 1052 of 
the boats conference.

Revisionist history has been your standard method of operation for at 
least two years.  Make some outrageous statements, blame it all on boaters
and fishermen, and if anyone protests, claim that we misunderstood or
that you never said it.

Here are your EXACT words about the Bedford launch from note 1052.34 
in boats:

>> I just visited the site we cleaned up last Saturday, and the trash
>> hasn't all been picked up yet. Somebody, however, has come to the ramp
>> and deposited two pickup beds' worth of debris in an area that was
>> clean before they arrived.
 
>> The access barriers are going up at that site as soon as possible.
    
>> John H-C

Now, please tell me where I misunderstood or mis-quoted you?  Your words
CLEARLY say the "RAMP", not the "bridge abutment" as you now claim.  Come 
on yourself.  Your words are there for all to see.   

Rick

    There is a ramp next to the bridge abutment.
    
    Not trying to be revisionist here, but it looks like you jumped to the
    conclusion that the ramp I was talking about was the one on 225.
    
    Not the case.
    
    So, yeah, I will tell you that you misunderstood.
    
    John H-C

    re: .296
    So what the hell is the difference?  Because someone dumped stuff
    by a ramp at Middlesex Turnpike, you're going to have it closed?
    So I had the wrong ramp - you've certainly let the situation fester
    long enough in the other conference, being well aware of what we're
    flaming you about, and even fanning those flames, but declining to 
    clarify yourself.
    
    What's next?  The first time some dumps at the 225 ramp, that one's
    history too?  That *is* your stated goal, isn't it?
    
    Rick

    I just want to point out that there are probably more notes in here
    about arguements with John then there are notes about Fishing.
    
    John, have you considered setting up your own notesfile just for that
    purpose?
    
    Mark,
    

    Gee, if you look at note 1052 in the Boating conference, you won't find
    me doing much arguing at all. They're going at it all on their own.
    I've only said a few words, but they apparently were enough to unleash
    a lot of anger and resentment that I've found very interesting and
    enlightening. I find it all very useful.
    
    I don't think I've started any arguments in this file in a long time,
    and I don't think I've ever resorted to personal attacks. (Well, maybe
    a couple blanket lambasts, but Mark Levesque deleted each one quite
    quickly, and I never even used those nasty little words or the big ones
    that annoy so many people around here.) I think this is one of very few
    notes, if not the only note, written by me about "arguing" with me.
    
    I use these notes files as a source of information, and they're very
    informative.
    
    You can hit <next unseen> or just <next> when you see GEMVAX::JOHNHC in
    the header. 
    
    
     John H-C

I must be overlooking the text where John has blamed the trash 
dumped at the ramp on boaters and fisherman.

	Steve

    There is no such text. I haven't blamed the trash dumped at the ramp on
    boaters or fishermen.
    
    John H-C

           
>>> I must be overlooking the text where John has blamed the trash 
>>> dumped at the ramp on boaters and fisherman.
    
    I think that this is a logical conclusion based upon what
    he has stated! 
    
    Fact #1- Trash has been dumped
    
    Fact #2- Solution ='s closing the ramp!
    
    Who is punished? The dumpers???
    
    NO... the boaters and fishermen are punished.
    
    This punishement then should lead us to the 
    understanding that either...
    
    1- He feels boaters/fishermen are responsible
       and should be punished...
    or
    2- As is typical in this society blame is not placed
       on the perpetrator of the crime but on the victim.
    
    So the boaters/fishermen are not only victims of the 
    dumping but also of the unjust overreaction of 
    the enviromentalist crowd.
    
    
     Chet                 

>>>    I think that this is a logical conclusion based upon what
>>>    he has stated! 
    
I strongly disagree with your logic.

	Steve

    
    
     Where I grew up the ones who were 
     punished were the ones who did
     something wrong!
    
     Was there a different practice
     elsewhere?
    
     chet
    

    I want to interject something here.  I find 90% of the time agreeing
    with the things John has stated in these files.  He does much more
    than I do towards cleaning up the environment.  I gripe alot and bitch
    at how dirty the waterways are, but do I don a diving suit or hop in
    a boat to haul trash, nope no way.  so what I am trying to say is this 
    guy works hard to keep clean the environment that most of us are too 
    busy to do.  He spends his time doing and studying about the water.
    
    So if this guy gets overzealous, he has the right.                 
    
    Brian

    
     Oat..
     
         Have you lost your mind!!! Don't forget its just plan
     ole' fun just to bust him now and again! H-C and I go way
     back!!! he don't mind a little pork-a-roo...keeps him in line.
    
                                             Kiv

    Yes, there is a difference between brood stock for sea run salmon and
    landlocked salmon.
    
    The brood stock for sea run salmon are extracted from the elevator at
    the Essex Dam in Lawrence, MA on their way up the Merrimack to breed in
    freshwater. In other words, they come from the ocean.
    
    I've always thought it a shame that fish they pull out of the run like
    that get dropped into landlocked water after they've been used. As the
    only species of salmon that survives its spawning run and returns to
    the sea, it always seemed to me they should be given the opportunity to
    do it again and again instead of being cut short after one run.

I've got some info for anyone interested in helping with the NH 
    Public Access Survey.

It is being handled by the Office of State Planning, in Concord.
I've been talking with a woman there by the name of Jane Lockwood,
who was extremely pleasant and helpful.  The number there is 
603-271-2155.  Also, Rich Tichko at the Fish and Game (603-271-2224)
was very helpful.  If you send $10 to the NH Wildlife Journal, at
2 Hazen Drive, Concord NH 03301, you'll get a year's subscription (11 
issues) of the NH Wildlife Journal.  Their spring edition covers
public access issues.  

The public access survey started last summer, and will continue for 
another year or two.  There are presently about 80 volunteers, and 
Jane says that they would be thrilled to have more.  She would like
to hear from any of you who can volunteer, or would like more information.
Surveys are being  done to locate all means of access, including public 
or private (pay-per-use) launch ramps, beaches, marinas, trails, etc.  

Volunteers will be assigned a body of water to be surveyed, and will
be given maps.  Surveys include two steps.  The first is a drive, walk, 
or boat trip (depending on the size) around the water , to locate any 
and all access points.  The second step is a visit to the town tax 
office, to determine the owner of any access you find, and also to 
locate the missing state owned right of ways.

One-hour training sessions are given at the Office of State Planning,
generally on Tuesday evenings.  The next one is scheduled for June 22nd.
At that time you can get the survey questionnaires and assignments.

It was really refreshing to talk with someone who is actively working
to enhance public access.  I asked Jane what the intention of this survey
was, and explained why I was asking, and she made it very clear that 
the intention and long term plan is to INCREASE access, to the point
that every lake and pond over 10 acres should have public access. She
said it also "makes her blood boil" when she hears of people working to
close off access to the public, especially if they are deceitful about
the fact they are doing it or their reasons why.  I was told by the F&G 
that in NH, the public is *guaranteed* water access dating back to Colonial 
times, under the Great Ponds Act of the King's Grant, and anyone trying 
to eliminate access is in violation of the law, which is still in effect.
The law applies to all legal means of transportation, and cannot be used
to restrict powerboats.  Obviously, public access is not available in all
areas, so this survey and reclamation of right of ways is being done to 
help correct the situation.

I'm going to try and attend the session on the 22nd. Anyone else interested?

Rick

    Some additional news...
    
    One of the first lakes to have access upgraded will be Newfound 
    Lake.  Work will begin on a new ramp at Wentworth State Park in
    the fall, and will be ready next spring.
    
    There's a list of (if I remember right) 10 of the largest or
    most popular areas that will be immediately targeted for upgrades. 
    Squam and Winnipesaukee are also on that list.
    
    Rick

           <<< HYDRA::DISK_NOTES$LIBRARY:[000000]DAVE_BARRY.NOTE;1 >>>
                       -<  Dave Barry - Noted humorist  >-
================================================================================
Note 817.0                    Breeding Stupid Fish                    No replies
QRYCHE::STARR "I want to see you dance again...."    91 lines  14-JUN-1993 11:58
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 93 23:33:14 EDT
From: [email protected] (Dave Barry)
Subject: Scientists are trying to give anglers the edge by breeding stupid fish

I have some good news for you "anglers" out there concerning
ongoing scientific efforts to make fish stupider.
	We need stupider fish because fishing is an important
industry, one that pumps $867.4 million annually into the U.S.
economy (source: The Journal of Big Pretend Numbers).
	Millions of Americans enjoy angling, although I myself am
not one of them. My feeling is that if you go fishing, you are
running the risk that you will catch a fish. Mother Nature never
intended for this to happen, which is why she gave fish an outer
covering that feels as though a big sick man named "Lester" has
just blown his nose on it. Mother Nature intended for the human-
fish encounter to occur in the restaurant environment, where the
fish has been formed into a rectangle and covered with bread and
fried to such an extent that it could also be chicken.
	Also, there is the problem of bait. The last time I
angled, a friend of mine provided the bait, which turned out to be
shrimp. I always thought of shrimp as being benign and featureless
little comma-shaped things that congregate on ice in bowls in the
cocktail-party environment. But when I looked into Jim's bait
bucket, I saw these insects from space. They had about 157 legs
apiece and antennae and eye stalks. Some of them were the size of
small dogs, and they were striding around in a very irate manner.
These were not benign creatures. These were creatures that could
be used as security guards.
	I had to repeatedly stick my hand into that bucket,
unarmed. I had no choice. My son was watching, and I didn't want
him to think I was a coward. Instead, he thought I was stupid.
There's no way he would have stuck HIS hand in there.
	Fortunately, nothing happened to me. I was lucky. You
don't read much about shrimp attacks on humans, but this is only
because wealthy seaside-resort owners use their influence to keep
them out of the news. Nobody really knows how many victims wash up
on the beaches each year, their bodies nibbled beyond recognition,
covered with horseradish sauce, impaled on large colored
toothpicks.
	But millions of people like to fish, and they will be
pleased to learn that officials of the Texas Parks and Wildlife
Department are working -- according to Dallas Morning News stories
sent in by alert readers Dick Barbosa and Kathy Richards -- to
reduce the intelligence of bass. You might think that bass are
already stupid enough, inasmuch as they eat worms when there isn't
even a bet involved. But apparently they're still too intelligent,
at least in Texas, where an alarming number of bass are
consistently failing to allow anglers to catch them, thereby
wrecking the entire sport.
	So the wildlife officials have been selecting easy-to-
catch bass, breeding them, then repeating the process. Each
succeeding generation is getting stupider and stupider; the
officials hope some day to develop a bass that will watch the
"Home Shopping Club."
	I'm kidding, of course. The bass will never be that
stupid. But they are getting easier to catch. I hope this solves
the problem, because wildlife officials would face many steep
hurdles in any attempt to breed smarter anglers.
	Another major player in the fish-improvement field is Dr.
Arthur N. Popper, chairman of the University of Maryland zoology
department, who, according to a Baltimore Sun article sent in by
Laurie McLain,  is trying to teach rockfish to come when called.
	Rockfish are raised in large quantities on commercial fish
farms (which are just like regular farms except that the fields
have to be plowed via submarine). The problem, according to the
article, is that the fish tend to scatter all over the pond, and
when their food is dumped in, a lot of it gets lost in the bottom
muck before the rockfish can locate it. So Dr. Popper is planning
experiments to see if rockfish can be trained to swim toward an
electronic hum, so they could be called together for feeding.
	The article has a picture of Dr. Popper -- a bald,
mustachioed man who looks exactly like his name would be "Dr.
Arthur N. Popper" -- leaning thoughtfully over a tank containing
some rockfish, who appear to be looking right at him, as though
trying to communicate the concept:  "Hey! Dr. Popper! We're fish!
We don't have any ears!"
	This is true, but Dr. popper thinks they can hear anyway.
I certainly wish him the best, and I'd like to suggest that, if
the electronic hum doesn't work, he might try the sounds that we
use in our house to summon our dogs, Earnest and Zippy, when their
food is ready. We've had excellent results with:
	"DOWN!  NO !  GET  DOWN !  GET  DOWN RIGHT NOW!!"
Earnest and Zippy are extremely good at being on hand when
food appears. It's their only skill. In fact, maybe Dr. Popper
could figure out a way to take some genes from my dogs and combine
them with genes from a rockfish to produce a fish that would
always be on hand for feeding time. Of course,  it would be WAY too
stupid to swim.

(C) 1993 THE MIAMI HERALD
DISTRIBUTED BY TRIBUNE MEDIA SERVICES, INC.

>    The public launch on Pleasant Lake continues to be terrible.

 Perhaps it should be renamed "Unpleasant Lake" :-)

    
    For lack of a better place I'll ask my question here...
    
    I'd like to take my camcorder out and video tape Gus and myself
    catching stripers/blues. Especially the top water action 8')
    So my question is has anyone ever taken their camcorder out on the
    ocean and what are the chances that the salt air or whatever will 
    damage it?
    
    Walt

    Chances are very good that whatever will damage your camcorder. I'm a
    pretty careful person when it comes to gear-that's-supposed-to-be dry,
    and I have lost two cameras that way.
    
    "Splash-proof" camcorder housings are available for about $150 - $200.
    These are good to about 1 foot of submersion. Housings that will
    protect your camcorder to several atmospheres (i.e., useful for diving)
    run about $1000 and higher.
    
    FWIW
    
    John H-C

    Go for it.  The "salt air" and/or a drop of water here or there won't
    hurt it.  But if you really think it will get wet, then see the
    previous note.
    

    I always have aboard the FishTeaser my 35mm Nikon FT with 3 lenses
    200mm Telephoto, 52mm standard and 28mm wide angle.
    
    Have taken it on other saltwater trips including my now "famous"
    -< Tuna Tail >- trip a few yrs back.
    
    The camera was bought during my Nam 67'-68' "vacation". 
    It's not a camcorder but if you have one of equal quality you
    should have no problem.
    
    I don't own one but was wondering how you would keep it fairly steady
    aboard a rolling/pitching boat? The smaller the worser 8^0
    
    -< Tuna Tail >-

    
    Thanks for the replies. The camera is only 1 yr old so i'm sure
    it's of better quality than those made 5-6 yrs ago. The problem
    I see is what do I do with it while I'm fishing? Gus' boat is a
    14 footer so there's not alot of room. I do have a case for it but 
    it's not waterproof and we have taken on water in Gus's boat once or
    twice do to some maniac in a speedboat. I'm sure in a bigger boat with
    more room it would be much better. As to rolling waves, thats part of
    the fun! The video is for my grandparents who live in Kentucky and who
    have never seen the ocean. I wonder if the rolling waves would get them
    seasick 8') So the bottom line is, do I want to take the chance of 
    hurting/ruining it? The answer of course is no. I have an old 35mm 
    still photo camera that I think I'd be better off taking along. I couldn't
     care if I dropped that one overboard.
    
    Walt

    Walt,
    	You can buy a water tight tote bag.
    	I got one at a sports store and it's a circular tube thing
    	with tie wraps at the top.  The one I bought is about 4' long
    	and I put camera,wallet,car ket's etc etc in it.
    	Purpose....My wife and I went on 2nd Honeymoon to Puerto Rico
    	and love to snorkel but on isolated beaches.  We did not want
    	to leave our valuables ashore so got the bag.  At first I was
    	worried about water getting in as it was just a tie thing.
    	I tied a long cord to it (15'+++) and it floated on the surface
    	behind me as we snorkeled.  I could dive to the botton and it
    	would not sink.   This bag was great and I highly recommend it
    	for not just your camcorder but anything you want protected.
    	Like you lunch :-) etc.
    
    	I got mine at the Greendale Mall in Worcester at the sports store
    	just outside Lechemere's.  You may find a less $$$ elsewere but
        I couldn't vouch for it untill I have seen it.
    
    	Can't remember the $$$ but it might have been $20 ish???
    
    	-< Tuna Tail >-
    

    You can buy an orange sportsman's "dry box" at Walmarts for around $7.
    
    It's an orange plastic box with a handle and lid with a gasket and
    clamp closure.  I doubt it is as reliable as the previous suggestion,
    but I'm sure it will work for you.  I've kept my camera in it all
    season without any problems.
    
    Mark,
    

    
    Dick, Mark,
    Great suggestions, thanks. I'll definitly look into both items
    and let you know how things go.
    
    
    Walt

    
    I have done video on the sweet dream II this year and they come
    out good. You can see the fish under the water and the motion of
    the boat is not that apparent. The tough thing to do is to
    actually use the camera when the fish are comming hot and heavy!
    
    Bruce

A couple years ago we went out to stellwagon bank whale watching in my 22' boat.
Great day gentle swells.  My son-in-law (who is prone to seasickness) video'd
the whales feeding.  Later at home on the couch He almost got sick watching it
on tv.

I also keep a cheap 35 MM camera on board and have had no problems with it for
the past few years

Gordon

    	If the video camera is small enough, you could put it in a large 
    zip-loc bag.
    
    	RAYJ

>doing it exclusivley in fresh water and occassionaly in saltwater

 ?!!

 Maybe you meant "extensively". :-)

>during the summer month.

 I guess in Vancouver there's only one. :-) I thought it was a short season in 
New England.

>     Well over a year has passed since the base note
>     and I still haven't been there! Actually I am
>     going there next week so I'm wondering if anyone
>     knows the prices on a short term Florida fishing
>     license,(around 3 days).

 We'll tell you next year. :-)

 re: boat for $ale

 Hey Lee! I hope you're getting a new boat!

    
    
      Mark,
    
        Well yes we have upgraded to a 30 foot cruisers! twin screws and a
    fly bridge. and ya know I gotta funny feeling my Nissan aint gonna tow
    it))))))))8********.
    
       But really, we are going to be setting it up in early april and will
    be on it for the first trip of the year after ice out.
    
                                                     Lee
    

I was going to put this under environmental clean up but ...
    
Subj:	An interesting article on Whale

From:	US1RMC::"[email protected]" "Keith Westgate" 15-FEB-1994 10:53:32.27
------- Start of forwarded message -------
 ----- Begin Included Message -----

<more forwards removed>

  I am absolutely not making this incident up; in fact I have it all on
  videotape. The tape is from a local TV news show in Oregon, which
  sent a reporter out to cover the removal of a 45-foot, eight-ton dead
  whale that washed up on the beach.  The responsibility for getting
  rid of the carcass was placed upon the Oregon State Highway Division,
  apparently on the theory that highways and whales are very similar in
  the sense of being large objects.

  So anyway, the highway engineers hit upon the plan - remember, I am
  not making this up - of blowing up the whale with dynamite.  The
  thinking here was that the whale would be blown into small pieces,
  which would be eaten by sea gulls, and that would be that.  A
  textbook whale removal.

  So they moved the spectators back up the beach, put a half-ton of
  dynamite next to the whale and set it off.  I am probably not guilty
  of understatement when I say that what follows, on the videotape, is
  the most wonderful event in the history of the universe.  First you
  see the whale carcass disappear in a huge blast of smoke and flame.
  The you hear the happy spectators shouting "Yayy! and "Whee!" Then,
  suddenly, the crowd's tone changes.  You hear a new sound like
  "splud".  You hear a woman's voice shouting "Here come pieces of ...
  MY GOD!"  Something smears the camera lens.

  Later, the reporter explains:  "The humour of the entire situation
  suddenly gave way to a run for survival as huge chunks of whale
  blubber fell  everywhere."  One piece caved in the roof of a car
  parked more than a quarter of a mile away.  Remaining on the beach
  were several rotting   whale sectors the size of condominium units.
  There was no sign of the sea gulls, who had no doubt permanently
  relocated in Brazil.  This is a very sobering videotape.  Here at the
  institute we watch it often, especially at parties.  But this is no
  time for gaiety.  This is a time to get hold of the folks at the
  Oregon State Highway division and ask them, when they get done
  cleaning up the beaches, to give us an estimate on the US Capitol.

------- End of forwarded message -------
    

    Wow!!!!!!  I would love to get my hands on a copy of the tape.... 
    Great story of a brilliant idea!!!!!  This has got to make American's
    funnies home video's or rescue 911 or one of those show's.
    And I thought Sea Gulls were bad.
                                                 Stewart
    

    This was already on one of those shows or some program some time ago.
    I remember watching it.  And as they mentioned using dynamite I 
    knew right then what to expect.  I was only hoping that nobody
    would get injured.  Totally a dumb idea and whomever thought of it
    trully didn't know what TNT does.  Apparently neither did any of
    the spectators.  
    
    	It's good that nobody got hurt as now it's a laughable expierence.
    	But not for the whale :-(
    
    -< Tuna Tail >-

    It was an old story, but it was the first time I came acrossed it.
    
    I was also horrified when they gave the amount of TNT that they were
    going to use. There are stories about my camp and a 600 + pound boulder
    that the previous owner launch into the lake for a new bass shelter
    with a few pounds of TNT. I dont think they used much more that
    that on the world trade center.  
    
    Back to the rock that was launched from my summer camp, it is about 50
    feet from the shore line now. When it is about 1/2 hour before sun set 
    the shade is just  right to catch a good size bass waiting for supper.
    
    
    
    jb
    

>I dont think they used much more that that on the world trade center. 

 The claim is 1500 lbs.

    	The 1500 sounds reasonable...  Having had more than a little
    experience blowing things up when I was in the Army I can tell you that
    a pound or two will do quite a job on a vehicle or two but it takes
    -lots- of explosive to do steel reinforced floors etc.
    
    	Just remember that TNT is illegal for fishing....  But if you've
    got enough of it who's going to argue with you?
    							B.C.

    >> Just remember that TNT is illegal for fishing...
    
    	Thats right. And the next time the game wardon catches you using
    it, light a stick, hand it to him and ask...
    
    	" You goin' to talk or fish"
    
    jim-who's-headed-for-texas
    -satuday-for-9-days-of-bass-fishing.....without the wife
    
    

    What's a "bowfin?" Does it go by another name? I don't think I would
    recognize one of these it I saw it.
    
    Thanks.
    
    John H-C

    Hi John,
    
    I'm not sure whether or not a "bowfin" goes by any other name.
    The first time I had heard of one was up at Champlain (as well
    as the "sheepshead"). 
    
    The first time I saw a bowfin, I thought... My god look at the 
    size of that smallie!!!   We saw them in water from 4-10 feet.
    We hooked two of them during our long weekend there, the first
    we landed, the second broke off.  The fish are best described
    as "fugly".  They are brown in color on top, whitish on the 
    bottom.  They had an eel-like tapered tail.  I believe they are
    smooth-skinned (I didn't touch the sucker), and are considered
    trash fish by the locals.  I do know that they will hit lures
    (sluggos) so they are probably not solely scavengers.  They 
    fight like a banshee, and were fun to hook.  The one we caught
    was around 5 lbs or so, and the one we lost, bigger.
    
    As I said, I have a Champlain fishing guide at home, maybe they
    have some more info.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Gus-man
     

    Did it have a barbel? That is, a single whisker in the chin? Except for
    the depth, it sounds just like a cusk.
    
    Hmmm. Time to hit the books for a little help here.
    
    John H-C

    Hi John,
    
    I do not recall if the bowfish had a barbel or not.   It was 
    definitely cruising the shallow water, as we did see the fish
    cruising on several occasions, in weedlines and near structure
    close to shore.
    
    I have not seen a freshwater version of a cusk, but these 
    fish did not have the same coloration as their ocean 
    counterparts.   The bowfin was dark on top and lighter on
    the belly, whereas the cusk I've seen were typically a
    uniform mottled green/brown mixture.
    
    Another resource I have that I'm quite sure will have a 
    description is the Vermont Fish and Game laws extract.  
    I'll check there as well.
    
    Regards,
    
    G-man.
      

    I've always considered bowfin and mudfish one in the same, no idea if
    either is the correct name or not... have only caught them down south, 
    florida and southcarolina to be exact.. the ones i've caught are real
    ugly and have NASTY teeth...
    
    -donmac

    Hi Donmac, 
    
    The bowfin was an ugly sucka, but I don't think it had 
    teeth.  Here's the decription from the Lake Champlain
    International fishing derby guide, unfortunately, it does
    not list the latin species/class names:
    
    From the section "Vermont's other fish", by George Labar, Associate
    Professor of Wildlife and Fisheries Biology, University of Vermont.
     
        The bowfin is another primitive fish found in the state,
        and is closely related to the longnose gar.  However, 
        rather than having diamond-shaped scales like the longnose 
        gar, the scales are rounder and thinner.  The tail has
        the same form, with a black spot at its base.  The young
        fish are mottled black and white, one of the most attractive
        fish we have, but lose these markings as they grow older.
        In Vermont, adults are commonly 18-20 inches long, and weigh
        4-6 lbs., but they may be much larger.
    
        They spawn in the spring in shallow weedy areas of lakes.
        The males build a nest by clearing away vegetation, debris,
        or mud, until it has a diameter of about 3 feet.
        ... 
        They begin to feed on plankton and small insects, then switch
        to fish for most of their diet.  They are know to feed on other
        aquatic vertibrates as well, or an occasional shrew or duckling.
        Again, as with the gar, a bowfin has a lung of sorts, and is
        capable of breathing atmospheric air, especially if the water
        temperature exceeds 65 degrees.
        ...
        While there are a few anglers who actively fish for bowfin,
        it is generally considered a nuisance and a competitor for
        northern pike. 
        ...
        Those fishermen that do catch bowfin say that it is a very 
        good fighter, and takes surfaces lures in shallow, warm, heavily
        vegetated areas.  The flesh is debatably palatable.
      
        Reprinted without permission....
    
    They have a pencil drawing of the fish, and the tail is a bit
    less eel-like than I recall, and is quite round, as opposed to 
    square or forked.  The dorsil fin is quite large and extends all
    the way back to the tail.  No barbel.
    
    The fresh water cusk is also listed in the same section of the guide
    under the heading of burbot.  Interestingly, one of nicknames listed
    under the burbot is "lawyers".  Wonder how that one came about!
    
    Gus-man.
    

    Ah, so, once again there's a fish I have yet to see in northern waters.
    The bowfin is also known by the names mudfish, grinnel, and dogfish. It
    range is the western half of the Mississippi River basin as well as
    coastal river basins from Florida through Virginia. It seems to thrive
    in the same habitat as (and behave much like) the largemouth bass. I've
    sometimes wondered what filled the niche the largemouth has occupied
    before the largemouth's introduction, and the bowfin seems to be one of
    those. The descriptions I found did not describe it as "toothy," though
    I take this to mean only that it wasn't mentioned rather than that
    they're not toothy. I look forward to seeing these fish when I get into
    Lake Champlain.
    
    The Latin name, as if any of us care, is Amia calva. There is only one
    species of bowfin in North America, according to my references. Europe
    presumably has other species.
    
    John H-C

    the mudfish/bowfin/nasties that I've seen down south have teeth/fangs
    you couldn't miss... my guess is the ones with the teeth are a similar 
    species that aren't found up north...  
    
    -donmac

    
    I've caught small bowfin (10-15") in glacial pothole lakes in Michigan.
    I helped to TRY and eat an 8-lb'er from Lake Champlain. Real similar
    to the Hickory Smoked Carp joke...yuck
    
    
    Rich (who misses the Battenkill)

================================================================================
Note 805.145                   Freshwater anyone?                     145 of 145
GLITTR::JOHNHC                                       10 lines  21-MAR-1994 08:23
                  -< Quick slide show at 12:30 in MR01 today >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Today at 12:30 I'm going to be refreshing my memory of the slides in my
    freshwater presentation so I'm at least a little prepared to speak to
    the United Divers of New Hampshire this evening.
    
    If anybody is interested in seeing the short version of the DES
    perspective on freshwater, you're welcome to sit in. I'll be grabbing
    an empty conference room near where I sit, which is Pole P4 on the
    second floor of MR01. (Really, the pole is right here in my cubicle.)
    
    John H-C

    Anybody else catch the story in the _Boston Globe_ Metro/Region section
    about the disastrously small runs of herring and shad this year?
    
    What did you think?
    
    John H-C

I've noticed over the years that they are cyclical, like many fish species.
I know that last year's MA herring quota was taken very early 'cause the
tuna bait we were getting was landed in Hampton and trucked to Newburyport
& Gloucester.  Either there were a lot of herring and they were easy to 
catch, or, the herring fishermen got really lucky and wiped out a large
portion of the population.

This year is not looking promising for ANY fish species, other than the
striped bass.  And the government is looking into easing regulations on
them too!   I'm really bulls*t about MA having a 36" limit while everyone
else has a 34" limit.  The *only* positive thing about this is that RI 
went up 6" from 28" to 34".  They are not happy about that, but I am.

The striped bass resurgence is the *BEST* evidence that fish populations
can recover if allowed to.  Now, if only the govt. would get out of the
pockets of special interest groups (fishing industry) and shut down ALL
commercial ground fishing for a few years.  This ammendment 5 stuff is
not going to cut the mustard.  The commercial guys are simply staying out 
well into the evening.  The hours they are fishing are going to be close
to if not the same as the hours they fished last year, even though the
actual # of days at sea will be less (by law).

Spend a day sometime monitoring the commercial fleet on the VHF--It will
shock you how poorly they are doing.

Tim

>I'm really bulls*t about MA having a 36" limit while everyone
>else has a 34" limit.

 "Everyone else" does not include NH, nor, I believe, Maine.

 And it's not clear to me whether you wish everyone else were at the 36"
limit, or if you wish MA were at 34".

 I personally believe that the first that needs to be done is for
the government to severely restrict the number of commercial licenses
it issues. The explosion of new licenses during the early 1980s was
a total debacle. (I believe the number of commercial licenses went
up 4x-8x during that time.)

 Next they have to declare vast areas to be closed for perhaps 5-10
years to commercial fishing. Vast areas == gulf of maine, new york bight, etc.

 Then they have to impose gear restrictions for commercial fishermen.

 But you just can't hang all these displaced fishermen out to dry. There
has to be a jobs retraining program so these guys can earn a living wage
in an alternative industry. I'd like to see some of them get into environmental
areas, like monitoring pollution, tracking down corporate polluters and
other environmental slobs, monitoring habitats, etc. 

    re: .347
    
    I'm pretty sure Tim meant that he was angry that RI still allowed
    undersize fish to be taken.
    
    OMIGOD, Mark, you shocked me! You and I seem to have the same thing in
    mind for what could be done with all those fishing boats and the men
    who don't feel right unless they're on the water: put them to work
    in the struggle to restore the natural balance.
    
    John H-C

    
    Mark, Be careful about limitting the commercial fishing licenses. i
    have  to have a commercial license to fish and sell a tuna regardless
    of what I do about groundfish. Now issueing groundfish permits is
    a different story. 
    
    I did not think the cod fishing could get as bad as it is. I actually
    heard commercials on the VHF anxiouslly awaiting the arrival of dogfish
    so they could catch and sell something.....There is also a fishery
    emerging for something called mud eels (or slime eels...)...
    After the evidence I'm experiencing ammendment 5 does not do enough
    and we wre in more trouble than anyone is willing to admit that could
    do something about it.
    Bruce

    Mud eels??? That'd be Hag Fish, no?  Whew! Takes a strong... or
    possibly just a Japanese digestive tract to make that one palatable.
    
    Since we're in the rat hole: I tried one of the alternative species
    weekend before last at Jimmy's in Boston. It was Ocean Pout. The banner
    on the menu said: "Delectable fish waiting to be known and loved."
    
    All the adults at the table turned to me and said, "What's a `pout'?"
    
    After making the obligatory facial expression, I said, "Face like Peter
    Lorre in the Loony Tunes and a tail like an eel's. Eats lobsters and
    crabs and the like." Didn't appeal to anybody based on that
    description, so I felt duty bound to order my own and give the cod a
    rest.
    
    There's probably a better way to prepare it other than broiling or
    sauteeing, but I'm not sure it would make a difference. The taste and
    texture were plain old unappealing. There was still some of the pout
    order on my plate after I'd had all I could eat and three other adults 
    had sampled it. 
    
    I don't see much of an opportunity for commercial fishermen to switch
    over to less known tablefare species.
    
    Hey, Bruce, how many tuna did you catch last year?
    
    John H-C 

It is my (perhaps incorrect) understanding that all atlantic coastal
states are enforcing the federal 34" limit on striped bass.  Mass
is enforcing 36".

I agree with finding fishermen work and why not work which they are
already good at?  They know all the local waters, they know the 
hangs, the unexploded ordinances, etc.  I think they should help with
the cleanup and make good money at the same time.  The government 
caused the explosion in the fishing industry by giving very good incentives
(cheap loans amoung them) and now is hanging the industry out to dry.

Tim

p.s.  Just to be crystal clear -- I want ALL states to enforce the same
limit, be it 34" or 36" (preferred).

>    Mark, Be careful about limitting the commercial fishing licenses. i
>    have  to have a commercial license to fish and sell a tuna regardless
>    of what I do about groundfish. Now issueing groundfish permits is
>    a different story.

 That was really what I was getting at, though I think that they oughtta 
stop purse seining for tuna entirely. (There are only 5 licensed purse
seiners, who take the lion's share of the resource.) Spread the wealth
a little.

>    I did not think the cod fishing could get as bad as it is.

 Species population collapse seems like such a abstract concept until
you realize, yes, the feds allowed it to happen AGAIN.

 We are simply being failed by bureaucrats in Washington; the system itself
is set up to fail. Fisheries is controlled by the commerce department;
could there possibly be a stupider arrangement? I doubt it.

>So many fish, so little time

 I sometimes wonder if "So few fish, so little time" might not be more 
appropriate.

>So many fish, so little time


This refers to my ever-constant dilemna of what should I go fishing
for in the little fishing time I have.

Stripers? Shad? LM Bass? etc.

    Well, Tim, there are always plenty of good-fightin' carp around, and
    it's the only fish I can think of that you can kill without doing
    anything but good. If you're morally and ethically opposed to killing
    something just so it won't continue destroying the local aquatic
    habitats, you can always use them for fertilizer.
    
    They're sort of like shad in that way, except shad serve a purpose, and
    carp don't.
    
    <g>
    
    Oh, yeah, and there are more carp than any horde of people could catch
    and kill in a few lifetimes.
               

    re .353
    
    Mark, don't know where you got your facts, but purse seiners got 1713
    fish (i think around 390 mt) compared to 3384 fish (500+ mt) in the 
    general cat last year.  Certainly not the lion's share.  Also, they
    were giant fishing long before it became such a valuable product.  I'm
    not saying I condone purse seining, but just want to make sure the
    facts are accurate.
    
    Joe

>purse seiners got 1713
>    fish (i think around 390 mt) compared to 3384 fish (500+ mt) in the 
>    general cat last year.  Certainly not the lion's share.

 Considering that there are 5 (maybe 6) purse seiner licensees that
took ~1/3 of the fish (and nearly half the tonnage!) I am not uncomfortable
saying that they are taking a disproportionate share of the resource.
Perhaps "lion's share" gave an inaccurate impression; I think "disproportionate"
conveys the message.

 It is my belief that the natural resources of this country belong to all 
of us. That includes our oceanic resources. I find it tremendously unfortunate
that market pressures have created lucrative opportunities that have
influenced decisions to allow the harvesting of resources (primarily
for commercial interests) at a rate much greater than that which the resources
can withstand. Consequently, groundfish stocks have plummeted, just as
the doomsayers claimed. Swordfish stocks ahve been decimated, just as
predicted. Tuna stocks are way down. This is not a difficult pattern to
recognize; the difficulty is in getting both our elected officials and
entrenched bureaucrats to act in a way to preserve the resource so that
we can enjoy the resource and our children will have a resource to enjoy.

 The preceeding generation or two are responsible for a terrible legacy
and we are stuck cleaning it up. But not only are we failing to clean it up;
we are perpetuating the problem. Commercial interests still rule supreme,
and commercial interests think about _this_ harvest, _this_ season. Today.
Worry about tomorrow, tomorrow. Well, it's tomorrow!

 Steps need to be taken to reverse this path to the obliteration of
species. Do we really want to become another Japan? They failed to
manage their marine resources, that's why they are pillaging ours
(and any others that aren't being guarded.) 

 You're completely right about politics taking center stage in decisions
about our resources. I think it's time we put a stop to that and start using
scientific methods, not lobbying pressure, to make decisions.

 The Doctah

Just how big is a "marine battery?"  Folks have been finding them all over the
country underwater, and they are asking for help in figuring out how to lift
them. The problem is that I don't know exactly what a "marine battery" is. Could
it be something larger than the deep cycle "marine battery" I have on my
sailboat?

Thanks.

John H-C

	Most marine batteries are either a size 24 or 27 battery.  They may
be a marine starting battery, a marine deep cycle battery, or both in one, like
a Delco Voyager.  You could most likely find ballpark weights in a Sears
catalog....  In any case, they're not very bouyant...

	Ask these folks how they'd get a chunk of gold that size up to the top,
I'll bet they'll come up with -lots- of ways to do it!

					B.C.

Well, that's about what I thought. As long as they aren't the size of a steamer
trunk, the methods I have suggested for raising them should work just fine.

Thanks.

John H-C

re:  the methods I have suggested for raising them should work just fine.


Sounds simple enough to me.  

Dive down...

  tie on to battery...

    surface...
    
       give other end to wife and tell 'er to PULL!


Wots da problemo?

The problem is making sure the battery remains intact and doesn't spill its
contents. (Batteries are "hazardous waste" and must be treated as such.)

John H-C

    ....what the HEY are they doing underwater in the first place??
    I can't believe people in this day and age could convince themselves
    it's OK to dispose of them in this manner,,,,,well actually I can't
    believe alot of things people do :-|
    
                                           -Steve

Batteries (automobile and others) are the fourth most common recognizable object
found underwater after beverage containers, tires, and shopping carts.

In some rivers, notably the Concord River, cars are just slightly more common
underwater than batteries.

John H-C

John

Just a question.  How far are these batteries from shore.  I can't imagine 
throwing a 30-50lb battery more than 5-8 feet.  Any futher than that then
boaters or people on the ice are the culprits.

Just curious

Gordon

In order of frequency:

Bridges (middle of channel)
Shore (edge of channel)
Boats (middle of channel, long way from bridge)
Piers (right under the dock)

The questions that have been coming in to me from around the country are from
Tennessee, California, and Oregon.  Most of these seem to be concerning
batteries dropped off piers and boats.

John H-C

    First I think your talking a majority of these are auto NOT
    marine. My guess. And its just the same moron who dumps  other trash
    into the water, side of the road. Maybe slobs is a better choice of
    words.  I'm sure boats do it as well, but I would guess they are
    dropped when the ice is over the channel, and move down stream with
    the ice or current.
    I got to trade mine in to get a new marine battery, or I lose the
    trade-in $$. Why drop it somewhere?
    
    Second, outside of the wording, its pretty hard to tell a marine from
    an auto battery.

    Jack I would think the carrier handles would be a dead give away.
    I forgot your butler installed yours for you,
    
     Regards
    
     Don B,

The batteries in question in Tennessee have USCG logos on them. I got a copy of
the diver's correspondence with the TVA, USCG, EPA, and the diver's Senator in
the mail the other day.  The USCG does not conduct any operations in the area,
and the author of the letter from the USCG to the EPA indicates that the USCG is
going to conduct an investigation into how batteries it disposed of ended up in
that river.

John H-C

<and the author of the letter from the USCG to the EPA indicates that the USCG 
<is going to conduct an investigation into how batteries it disposed of ended up
<in that river.

sort of reminds me of the last of the 10 commandments of a Marine

	"ALWAYS remember your rifle was made by the lowest bidder"

    Does anyone know where HUNTING is? getting netwrk object unknown.
    

    taelus::hunting

    Where is the "firearms" conference?
    
    I'd like to listen in on what civilian weapons enthusiasts have to say
    about the new "Rhino" ammunition.
    
    Thanks.
    
    John H-C 

RE: .373

	John,
		Firearms conference is at FOUNDR::FIREARMS.  I'll save you
	even more time, go to note #1038.2056 and .2057.  These are the last
	couple in the Media Bias string.
						B.C.

    
    Civilian weapons enthusiasts? Is that what i am? I thought I
    just liked to hunt/target practice. 8')
    
    Walt
    
    

Walt!
	You could branch out a little, those firearm things can also be
used for other stuff...  Like defending yourself!  And you only like the
civilian weapons?  I kinda like some of the military stuff too!!!

	Tell me, does Vermont still have a rifle season for Pike in Lake
Champlain? 8^/
					B.C.

    
  Guns can be used to defends oneself! I just thought they were mean cold
    killing machines with minds of their own. I didn't realize that they
    could be used for good things too! Wow. Now lets get the media to
    acknowledge this and start hammering on the criminals instead
    of guns/gun owners.
    
    Walt

<    I'd like to listen in on what civilian weapons enthusiasts have to say
<    about the new "Rhino" ammunition.
    
   For those who aren't interested enough to add another entry to their 
notebook,  the general consensus is that the "Rhino" ammo is a hoax. The guy
making it is not licensed to do so, he has not submitted examples of his new
amazing ammunition to either the BATF or the NRA for independent evaluation.
The NRA press release claims this guy has been anti-gun in the past. There is 
much speculation that the whole issue is a setup to drum up support for more
anti-gun legislation when the new congress convenes next week.

   There's a whole lot of media air-time and newsprint being dedicated to
something which has little credibility at this point in time.

    What a bunch of nerds!
    <g>
    
    John H-C

<    What a bunch of nerds!

   more precisely

     homopescicus  nerdicus

    All this talk about the ice on Winnipesaukee in 428.* has me wondering:
    
    Where, exactly, is the ice open on the Broads? It makes sense to me
    that the area in front of the Wiers would be open, but knowing what I
    know about the Broads, I'm wondering if my observations of ice
    development (compared against my knowledge of the bottom) on my local
    water hold true for Winnipesaukee.
    
    Thanks.
    
    John H-C

    
    I suspect the lack of ice in the broads is more a
    function of the lack shelter rather than bottom 
    composition/depth.  
    
    Not that I have anything other than personal 
    observation to back it up.  It seems that most
    sheltered or small ponds freeze long before
    the larger, less protected ones.
    
    Gusman
    
    

    Yeah, well, if my current theory about ice formation is true, the part
    of the broads that is least exposed is the part that is still open....
    
    John H-C

    
    
    And that theory is?
    
    

Dummy.  Read his reply...

	it's his "current theory"!  8^)

	   Is that current, as in current...

	   Or is that current as in current?

					B.C.

    
    .re -2
    
    OK, wise guy!  We already know how you feel about
    ice!   So just go back and hibernate until the
    end of march!
    
    gusman
    

    Sheesh! Take an afternoon off to fight a cold, and a tussle breaks out
    in the Rathole....<g>
    
    My "current" theory is that it is the depth and topology of the bottom
    that determines ice formation in stillwater more than wind or the lack
    thereof. Basically, as the water on the surface gets colder and sinks,
    the more warmer water there is to rise and displace it, the more slowly
    ice will form. In a sense then, the thermal "currents" would be
    responsible for the slower formation of ice.
    
    Regarding the Broads in Winnipesaukee, this theory would put the open
    water quite close to shore, in the southwestern part of the lake, in
    the vicinity of the 186-foot hole. (I sailed over it this summer -- it
    took me 40 minutes of passing here and there to find it -- and I was
    surprized at how close to shore it was. It's pretty well sheltered by
    several islands.)
    
    
    There it is. Comments?
    
    
    John H-C

    Can anybody out there tell me anything about Gleason Pond in
    Framingham, MA?
    
    * How big it is
    * How deep it is
    * How clear the water seems to be
    * What kind of public access is available
    * Whether there is a beach and/or a boat ramp
    * How developed the shoreline is
    
    That sort of thing.
    
    Anybody?
    
    Thanks.
    
    John H-C
    

    I'm looking for historical data on a pond that's recently been killed.
    That is, I'm wondering what species of fish once lived there and how
    plentiful they were, whether "hatches" were commonly seen, and any
    memories anybody may have of aquatic vegetation that may have come up
    on a lure or on an anchor.
    
    The moribund pond is Winnings Pond, in Billerica, MA.
    
    Any of you guys ever fish there? What do you remember?
    
    Thanks.
    
    John H-C

    The Town of Wayland, MA, USA, is looking to hire two people for the summer to
    provide surface support to a team of five divers working in Dudley
    Pond. The surface support job involves lifting vegetation that has
    floated to the surface into the boat and, when the boat is full, moving
    to the offload area and emptying the boat.
    
    The work day will be five hours long, from approximately 9:00 to 3:00,
    with an hour off for lunch, and the wages are $9/hour. If you know of
    anybody who might be interested. The need to fill these two positions
    is *immediate*. The Town is especially interested in finding somebody
    with WSI (lifeguard) certification, but that is not an absolute
    prerequisite.
    
    If you know of somebody who is interested, have them contact John
    Hicks-Courant at (800) 645-1470 or at this address:
    
    [email protected]
    
    
    John H-C
    OFOSS1::JOHNHC

    Where has the hunting note gone???
    
    Thanks
    Tim

    vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    I've got a printout of an image of Massachusetts Bays done by the USGS
    on the wall of my cube. While I was waiting for a printout to leak out
    of the printer, I noticed that, just north of the northern edge of
    Stellwagen Bank, there is a cluster of peaks jutting straight up out of
    the 300+ feet deep to a depth of ~90 feet. Does anybody know anything
    about this topology or what's there?
    
    Thanks.
    
    John H-C  

 The smokestacks of Atlantis??  8^)

    John, I've studied charts around stellewagon and know of no structure
    like that. Once you leave the bank the is no water less than 150-180 ft
    as
    you head east. On the west side it drops off to 250.
    
    Bruce

    Bruce ---
    
    It looks as if they start about 5 miles due north Stellwagen, with 3 -
    10 miles between them. They look to be anywhere from a quarter to a
    half mile in "peak circumference." This is an enhanced
    satellite/radar-type image, with the depths being coded by shades of
    gray. I pulled it off the web. If you do a net search on Massachusetts
    Bay, you'll encounter the image. (Sorry, I don't remember the URL.)
    
    John H-C

    
    RayJ,
    
    How about the fair market value for dead tommycod? 
   
    -donmac
    
    (That's got to be at least 5-6 years old 8^)

    	Boy, I'm never gonna live that one down ;-) Yeah, I'm looking
    forward to that this year too.
    
    	RAYJ

    Smelt season already?!?!

    I had some Rhode Island lobstah early in the week.  I have been
    regular ever since.  The waitress called it blacked lobster, but it had
    a curious kerosene smell.  I think something was wrong.....
    
    		NIGHTCRAWLER~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ps;
        TBDW says hello.               

    Dont forget that after you boil it take the water from the pan and 
    put it in your oil tank so you can heat the house.

    I have two questions someone else asked me. One, what happens to the
    thermacline(sp?) during the winter months when there is ice on
    the lake's etc? Two, what affect does ice have on oxygen levels
    in the same lakes etc?
    
    Thanks
    Walt

    Optimal temperature for dissolved oxygen is 42.3 degrees F (give or
    take .x for chemical constituents). This is also the warmest the water
    is going to get under the ice. Because 42.3 degrees F is the
    temperature at which the water is densest, this is the temperature of
    the water at the bottom if there is enough water to allow
    stratification.
    
    The coldest water (~32.x) is just below the ice, and the water warms as
    one descends through the stratification layers. This warming cannot be
    discerned by anything but a thermometer. The diver is completely numb
    (wetsuit) or untouched by the water (drysuit) when the thermocline 
    is reached.
    
    Given that there is only about 10 degrees between the ice and the water
    at the bottom, it's unlikely that there is more than one thermocline.
    
    FWIW
    
    John H-C

    I thought that the water was densest at ~34�F. At least, that's what they
    taught us in school.

If memory serves me, having ice on the surface doesn't block the
generation of oxygen by the plantlife. However get a thick snow cover on
the ice, and the plants nearly cease their O2-making. I recall a picture
I saw of a hole in the ice on a lake in Minnesota, when there had been a
snow cover for some time; the hole in the ice was completely filled by
catfish poking their heads up, gasping for air.

Art

    Working out of my office at home today, so I finally got a chance to
    check up on myself. (B.C. sent me a note not seconds after I posted the
    one about water density and thermoclines under the ice in which he 
    told me that, in his memory, the cited temperature should have been 39
    degrees F.)
    
    Everything else in my note was accurate, but that one point. The
    temperature at which water is densest and has the optimal dissolved
    oxygen (DO) content is:
    
    39.2 degrees F, with some variation according to the chemical
    constituents.
    
    Thanks for the gentle correction, B.C.
    
    John H-C

    The thermocline exists in warm weather because the earth beneath the
    lake acts like a big heat sink.  It tends to keep the water at the
    bottom of the lake at ground water temperature - basically the year-
    round average temperature.  In NE that's about 55 F.  The surface
    water is heated above that temperature and stays on top of the colder
    water because it is less dense.  The warm water layer becomes warmer
    and thicker as the warming effect from above puts more heat into the
    lake.  The temperature difference between the two layers can become
    quite pronounced.  The distinct boundary between the two layers is
    the thermocline.
    
    When the thermocline gets deeper than the oxygen-producing plants will
    live, the colder layer below the thermocline becomes oxygen starved
    because there is no mixing between the two water layers.  All the
    oxygen being produced in the warmer layer stays there.
    
    The thermocline dissappears when (actually before) the lake ices over.
    As the weather gets colder and the water loses heat at the surface, the
    denser, cooler water that results sinks and exposes more warm water at
    the surface.  This vertical motion (convection) in the water above the
    thermocline will keep the entire upper layer at approximately the same
    temperature as it continues to cool.  Eventually the water above the
    thermocline reaches the temperature of the water below the thermocline
    - and presto, no more thermocline.
    
    Now the whole lake will undergo this vertical mixing by convection, as
    heat is removed at the surface while more enters at the bottom from the
    surrounding earth.  So the whole lake will be at approximately the same
    temperature as it continues to cool.  (It will of course be somewhat
    cooler at the top and somewhat warmer at the bottom because the mixing
    isn't perfect.)  When ice forms on the lake it retards the heat loss,
    but the effect is still the same.  The water is being cooled at the top
    and warmed at the bottom, so it is in constant vertical motion in both
    directions.
    
    As for oxygen, when the thermocline dissappears the oxygen-starved water
    that was below it suddenly mixes freely with the oxygen-rich water from
    above.  The oxygen that used to be only in the top layer is now dispersed
    throughout the lake, so its concentration will have decreased.  But the
    lower concentration means that it will be absorbed more quickly from the
    air at the surface.  It will also continue to be absorbed more quickly
    as the water cools, because cooler water can hold more oxygen than warmer
    water.  So the lake will sort of make up for lost ground until it ices
    over.  Autumn storms help by making waves that both provide an increased
    surface area for it to be absorbed, and also splash air directly into
    the water.
    
    Tom
        

    
    
    	Who can I contact for membership in the BASS fishing
    	notesfile? Anyone know?
    
    	Bob

    
    
    Hi Bob,
    
    The moderators for the BASS fishing notesfile
    are:
      
          SUBPAC::MATTSON  (Gary Mattson)
          CRONIC::SULLIVAN (Dave Sullivan)
    
    FYI: Break out your thick skin before entering!
    
    Gusman
    
    

From the desk of the CRAWLER~~~~~~~~~

     Heard this on the radio at lunch. (Paul Harvey).  Thought I'd 
post it.  This is "bzah". [bizarre]

          In the Fiji islands, a man was night fishing.  He was 
standing in the water wading and had a light strapped to the top of 
his head.  A swordfish, skimming the water, apparently was attracted 
to this light.  The fish rushed at the man, speared him in the face and the 
man died.  He bled to death on the beach. 

 I don't recall the variety of swordfish.  It started with an "S".  
Something like Samuno.  It's bill weighs in the neighborhood of nine 
pounds.  <ouch>
     	
I assume there must have been a witness for such a detailed account.

                    NIGHTCRAWLER~~~~~~~~~~

Cross posted in ::BASS / WAHOO::FISHING

    	Guess that story fit the author's personal name to a T ;-)
    
    	RAYJ

    
    This past Sunday, the Hudson, MA Wal-mart had 3 shopping carts
    full of rods by the cash registers. Plus they had a rack with
    ice fishing tip up's (polar and others) all items were 50% off.
    Rods ranged from $14.99- $32.00, plus by the time I had left they
    marked them down another 20%. Most rods were White Rhinos, but there
    were some others mixed in incuding some salt water rods. I'm not sure
    if they're still there but if you're interested give wal-mart a call
    and ask.
    
    
    Walt

    	This is a continuation of the rat-hole in note 299.last-few. The
    property tax is based on the value of property and/or a building. The
    more it's worth, the more you pay. If it's water front, it's generally
    worth more than equal sized non-water front property.
    
    	In NH, it's not unusual for 75+% of property taxes to pay for the
    local schools. Much of the rest pays for town services. If the town
    spends money on lake/pond maintenance, everyone pays. Even the
    non-waterfront owners. The point is that most of the property tax $
    are going to maintain a school that you may never use.
    
    	It is admirable that an association would want to do, and pay for,
    maintenance over and above what others may be willing to do, but then
    they have a vested interest. They are also more likely to create some
    of the very problems they complain about. Borderline/inadequate
    septic systems, pesticides and fertilizers are just a few examples.
    
    	Slobs have, and probably always will exist. Waterfront owners
    have no monopoly when it comes to picking up trash. We all have to
    do this, unless we're slobs. 
    
    	The point is, aside from any *extra* money a waterfront owner
    pays an association for lake/pond maintenance, they pay no more than 
    anyone else for the use of the lake. I don't off-hand know of any
    public ramps that are funded solely from an association, and as I
    mentioned, I already pay for building/maintaining public ramps on
    *all* NH bodies of water through my fishing licence and boat
    registration.
    
    	RAYJ

<    local schools. Much of the rest pays for town services. If the town
<    spends money on lake/pond maintenance, everyone pays. Even the
<    non-waterfront owners.

	That's a big "IF".

< The point is that most of the property tax $ are going to maintain a school 
< that you may never use.

	In MY budget all the tax money goes so I have access to the lake. It
	is of no concern to me that the town spends it on other things. That
	money is my "ramp fee".
    
<    	It is admirable that an association would want to do, and pay for,
<    maintenance over and above what others may be willing to do, but then
<    they have a vested interest. 

	My point exactly. The lakefront owners do have a vested interest, as 
	does everyone else who uses the lake. If the lake deteriorates, then 
	everyone loses, owners and non-owners alike.

    
<    	Slobs have, and probably always will exist. Waterfront owners
<    have no monopoly when it comes to picking up trash. We all have to
<    do this, unless we're slobs. 

	I've seen a few boats I don't recognize as local doing their part, but
	9 times out of 10 it's one of my neighbors.
    
<    	The point is, aside from any *extra* money a waterfront owner
<    pays an association for lake/pond maintenance, they pay no more than 
<    anyone else for the use of the lake. 

	I guess we'll just have to disagree on this point.;-);-) If I lived
	there year round and it was my primary residence, then I would agree 
	with you, but it's not, never has been, and most likely never will be.

Al

    >	In MY budget all the tax money goes so I have access to the lake. 
    
     Not really. You'd still have access to the lake if you didn't have
    waterfront property. Your tax money is going to support your lakefront
    property.
    
    >	My point exactly. The lakefront owners do have a vested interest, as 
    >	does everyone else who uses the lake. If the lake deteriorates, then 
    >	everyone loses, owners and non-owners alike.
    
     But the vested interest is clearly unequal. Actual property owners are
    far more vested in a particular lake; non-owners can simply go
    somewhere else if a lake gets ruined. If a lake gets ruined, owners are
    in a bit of a pickle, relatively speaking.
    
     The Doctah

    	Let's remove the "water front" from the discussion and see if this
    still makes sense to you. Assume that you owned a camp on a dirt 
    through road. You and other camp owners decide that the town does not 
    re-grade the road often enough to your liking, so all the camp owners 
    agree to pitch in and have it re-graded more often.
    
    	Using your example, you're saying you would feel justified in
    setting up and collecting a toll for which all non-owners would pay 
    for the re-grade ? In addition, you want to base the toll on the amount 
    of days you use the road divided into your property taxes ?
    
    	Does this still make sense to you ? If it does, then I guess we'll
    just agree to disagree ;-)
    
    	RAYJ

<    	Let's remove the "water front" from the discussion and see if this
<    still makes sense to you. Assume that you owned a camp on a dirt 
<    through road. You and other camp owners decide that the town does not 
<    re-grade the road often enough to your liking, so all the camp owners 
<    agree to pitch in and have it re-graded more often.
 
     I would say those who use the road should help pay for maintaining the
road. I'm not suggesting the landowners should collect the toll, nor the ramp
fee. What I'm suggesting is that the town should collect the toll and put the
money toword maintaining the road, particularly if it's a dead end road that
primarily leads to a public campground (i.e. used almost exclusively by those
looking for recreation.)
   
<    setting up and collecting a toll for which all non-owners would pay 
<    for the re-grade ? In addition, you want to base the toll on the amount 
<    of days you use the road divided into your property taxes ?

    An interesting view, but I guess you're right; I want everyone who uses
the resource to pay his equal and fair share for this non-essential entity.
    
<    	Does this still make sense to you ? If it does, then I guess we'll
<    just agree to disagree ;-)

    You bring up an interesting analogy, but I still believe the landowners
should not be burdened with the bulk of the maintenance cost for a public
resource. Everyone who uses the recreation area should be willing to pay for
it...
   
   Once again, I'm not suggesting the public should not have access, only that
they should be prepared to pay their fair share to maintain it.

Al

    Can somebody give me directions to Comet Pond in MA? I'll be coming
    from the Lowell area. Walter Bickford asked me to take a look at it a
    few years ago, and I'm just now getting around to it.
    
    Thanks.
    
    John H-C

    Comet is easy to get to. Coming from Lowell take 495 south to rt. 2
    west. Take the rt 68 exit towards Hubbardston. Continue on 68 until you
    come to a blinking yellow (red maybe?) light. Take a left (it's route
    62) and it will be on your left a tenth of a mile down......
    
    I'm not sure what you are looking for but there is ice surrounding it
    right now........
    
    Bob M

    I overheard a couple anglers talking about fishing the other day, and
    one of them wondered aloud about when the stripers were coming in. The
    other guy very confidently told him the schoolies would be in right after 
    the first full moon in May.
    
    I'm just curious, is there really a correlation between the arrival of
    the first strpers and the first full moon of the two-weeks of New
    England spring?<g> Or is that date likely simply to be late enough that
    the stripers *have* to have arrived by then?
    
    John H-C

The shad arrive with the apple/cherry blossums and the stripers two weeks later.
This generally corresponds to shad around May 1st and stripers around May 15. 
May 9 is the earliest I've ever got a striper out the Merrimack and I got it on
a shad dart.  I usually plan my shad trips so that I fish the high tide for shad
and part of the falling tide, eat dinner and then hit the last two hours for
stripers.  I don't usually catch any stripers, but it lets me know when the fish
arrive.  Two years ago I was catching them May 9, 10, 11(stripers) and there was
nobody else there.  I went back a bit later and it was solid people.

Tim

That reminds me... Down in SE Mass and RI you wait for the first
dandelions to bloom so you can go fishing for tautog.

Art

(This *is* the rathole topic.)

    The latest "On the Water" has an article about when the "First
    Stripers Arrive".  One of the indicators that I remember is that
    they show up when the oak buds are as big as a mouse's ear.  This
    is the fresh run of Stripers and not the darker hold-overs.
    
    Before Catch & Release and when the size limit was only 16", several
    tackle shops held contests for the first striper of the season.
    
    With the warm January and February here is the NE area some folks
    are predicting fish to show up extra early this year.  I guess
    it is not too early to inventory the gear and get ready.

    Another harbinger:
    
    the mackeral show up when the forsythia bloom.
    
    It has been somewhat consistent as a predictor.......
    
    And there's another that's been true (for me) 
    
    Art will get his first keeper striper when
    Hell freezes over
    
    Art
    
    

    Well 2 mackeral were caught on a deep sea fishing trip last friday so
    the mackeral are early or my forsythia's are late.. :-)

1. It is not too early for Macks.  They won't be around in the "holy mackerel"
quantities for a few more weeks (early May)

2. The trees are all budding.  I bet we see the forsythias in about 2 weeks or
so.

3. The water is probably a bit warmer then usual for this year.  I bet things
are shifted forward a week or two.