Conference vmszoo::rc

       I can't say too much about the Avante because I have yet to
    build one,but supposedly no mods are needed,it is ready to race,
    just put in the radio.I did read the instructions though,and it
    looks like that is mostly true.Also,one of the R/C car mags did
    a test on the Avante plus some other "top of the line" cars
    recently,and the harshest comment about the Avante was that
    it was too heavy.I personally do not pay much attention to these
    reviews because it seems that whoever has the most adds that issue
    usually wins the comparison.
    
      As far as the other cars go,I would recommend the Fox.I have built
    4 of these cars for customers(I build for a local shop)and also
    raced 2 summers ago and the Fox never let me down.I have also built
    Rc10's and Optimas and am very disappointed in both,but they too
    have their merits.If you have any further questions,feel free to
    DTN me or send me mail.
    
    Kevin Colburn
    
    266-4708 or BTO::COLBURN

    How old is your son?  Has he ever built an RC car or done much
    maintainance on one?  What does he currently have for a car?
    
    Where do they race near you?  What is the popular race class, and
    cars?
    
    I would make sure that whatever car you buy that it is not to complex
    for your son to build/maintain himself.  If he is young and not
    very experienced I would not buy a 'sophisticated' car but would
    opt for a 'simpler' car.  Also, make sure that the car is popular
    in your area and there is an ample supply of spare parts in your
    area hobby shops.  You may also want to make sure that there is
    a good variety of after market parts for later modifications as
    your son get's more experienced/competitive.
    
    Since you mentioned the Avante I assume he is interested in an off-road
    car.  You need to decide on 2WD or 4WD.  Keep in mind that 4WD cars
    are more exspensive to buy, build, and maintain.
    
    The owner of Hobby Etc. (Lamplighter Sqaure accross from Pheasant
    Lane Mall in Nashua, N.H.) seems to think that the Avante is too
    exspensive, too heavy, and difficult to maintain.  You may want
    to talk to him to get some perspective if you live in that area.
    He is active in area racing and can give you some info on local
    tracks and the popular cars.  If you don't live in the area see
    if you can find some races and go talk to the people there.  It
    is an opportunity for you son and yourself to get good advice.
    
    Todd
    

    Thanks for the replies.  I think the Avante impressed us because
    of the construction...lots of metal parts and everything seemed
    adjustable. It also comes without a motor which makes sense because
    serious racers seem to always put hotter motors in anyway.
    
    My son will be using his car during the summer, probably in the
    Northboro area. I understand thay have 2WD and 4WD classes year
    round (winters at a school gym in Hudson).  He spends the school
    year in middle Georgia, so there is no "class" to worry about so
    far, and off-road is probably the only viable thing nearby.
    
    Since he is 13 (going on 33) I dont think maintainance would be
    much of a problem except for parts while in Georgia (with no RC
    shops around). He would need to get parts from the hobby shop
    here, thru us.
    
    We will take another look at the Fox.  Now another question. If
    one were considering something like this, would it be less expensive
    to start with a parts list (aftermarket shocks, chassis, tires, wheels
    motor, bearings, etc.) and only order the stock parts to complete the
    unit...or is it really better to begin with the stock kit and add
    the aftermarket stuff trial and error (or when something breaks)?

    We plan to attend some local races before buying anything to see 
    which cars and specific parts do well (tires, etc.) which should help 
    him start out with reasonably competitive hardware.
    
    Thanks again, I knew I could count on Noters.
    Walt

    
    
    As far as competition is concerned, the Super Stock/Open 2WD Off-Road
    cars is the way to go.  These 2 classes offer the best choice for
    the novice racer who wants to start with a "bang" (Super Stock class)
    and move to the Open class as expertise (and budget) grows!
    
    I can offer some additional info on the Avante and the other cars
    you mentioned...
    
    While the Avante is an expensive kit (it comes with or without motor
    - the Technigold is offered) it comes with everything needed to
    go racing - right out of the box.  My friend built one for his son
    and found assembly complex but not difficult - thanks to excellent
    assembly directions.  It was raced during the summer on 4 different
    weekends and managed to finish only 1 Main event (3rd place).  The
    problem seemed to be that the car offers so many adjustments and
    no assistance from Tamiya as to what does what when it's adjusted
    that my buddy's son spent all his time racing and adjusting and
    never really got the car "setup" properly.  Eventually it got "shelved"
    for a JRX-2.  As mentioned in an earlier reply, it is a heavy car
    and there isn't much in the way of after-market parts available.
    This kid also owned a Fox which he had completely transformed with
    after-market parts and raced very successfully for over a year.
    
    The other cars you mentioned, the RC10 and Optima are also great
    cars with a variety of aftermarket parts (the RC10 is probably the
    current leader in after-market parts availability) and are very
    competitive at the track.
    
    As far as scraping a kit and going strictly with aftermarket parts...
    since your son is getting into racing (and assuming limited racing
    experience) I would recommend a kit first then begin adding aftermarket
    parts.  My reason for this is the fact that your son can develop
    his driving skills at a base level, add aftermarket parts in a logical
    fashion according to skill and track requirements, and really get
    to know his car but seeing what "bad" stock components get replaced
    by more advanced "aftermakret" parts and the effect these parts
    can have on performance and handling.  By attending events at tracks
    (as well as competing) he will learn from other drivers what parts
    do best on what cars for what reason.
    
    This is also a good reason to attend several in-door tracks now
    - to see what cars are running, how they perform, and make your
    kit purchase based upon what you see.
    
    You can go to Roll-On America Tuesday nights from 7:00 pm to ???
    or check out the track in Hudson (which I believe is at the roller
    skating rink on #62 - not the school gym).
    
    In closing, let me make a few suggestions based upon both personal
    experience and "pit chatter" that any car will benifit from ...
    
    	a.  buy a good radio - such as a Futaba Pistol grip
    
    	b.  replace the stock mechanical speed control with an electronic
            speed control.
                                                                
    	c.  replace plastic kit bearings with real metal bearings.
    
    	d.  at minimum, replace the stock kit motor with an aftermarket
    	    super stock motor - your choice!                      
    
    	e.  choose a good performance battery pack & peak charger.
    
    Good luck!
    

    There are several interesting suggestions in .4
    
    I would like to ask some additional questions based on those...
    
    Exactly what is the difference between super stock and open classes?
    
    Would bearings, tires, hot motor, or any other item move one into
    the open class (that is if I am correct to assume open is above
    super stock in terms of modifications allowed)?
    
    I think my son would be better starting out in a novice or entry
    level drivers class since he has nearly no wheel to wheel experience.
    
    Its funny though, we both felt the Fox and Ultima kits were sort
    of mickey mouse and saw lots of things that we would do differently
    if we were to spec the car. Remember this is coming from a pair
    whos experience is with a couple 1/12 scale Niiko toy RC cars.
    
    We both saw a lot of molded plastic in high stress applications
    (I have ended up replacing similar suspension/chassis parts on
    the Niiko's with aluminum home made parts).  One thing we liked
    about the pictures of the RC10 (havent handled one yet) is the
    aluminum chassis.
    
    I have heard from several sources that stock motors are OK for 
    practice and foolin around but hotter motors are needed to race
    with any success. What % of the kits price are the stock motors?
    
    I noticed that most of the kits with steering adjustments made with
    threaded arms and rod ends require one rod end be removed to adjust
    anything. Isnt this time consuming? I also saw a couple aftermarket
    kits which sovced this with a l/r rod and reverse threaded rod ends.

    We both plan to get to some of the local races around Hudson/Northboro
    (we live in Bellingham, but there isnt much we can find here) to
    see what is successful both indoors at the Hudson roller rink and 
    outdoors at the receway at Northboro. Heck if all they run are 2WD 
    sprint cars, owning a 4WD would get pretty boring.
    
    Its tough to get there though since my son is here for a couple
    weeks at Christmas then back to Georgia untill school is out for
    the summer. 
    
    Another question to the Avante owners...
    
    There have been a couple who indicated they ran it a couple times
    them put it aside.  I would like to know more about why? It was
    obvious to me that this was an off road car by design (I cant imagine
    a road car needing that kind of suspension travel) but is it simply
    not competitive with on road types (4WD), are the on road 4WD classes
    to small to be interesting, is the car hard to set up or undependable?
    
    Thanks again,
    Walt    

    Walt,
    
    Open class is above Super Stock.  There are also other classes higher
    than Super Stock such as On-Road.  R.O.A.R. has definite rules about
    the differences between classes, but some tracks alter the rules
    to suit the quantity and type of racers at their track.  Generally
    speaking, Super Stock means racing a car as it comes out of the
    kit.  Things like bearings and electronic speed controls are generally
    allowed.  Battery packs are usually limited to 6 cell 7.2v and stock
    motors can be replaced by any motor with a retail value =< $28.00.
    Open class - all bets are off!  Chassis modifications, hotter
    batteries, oil/gas filled shocks, pinion/idler gear changes, ball-diffs
    and $80.00 limit on motors.  Now of course there are plenty of folks
    who "play" with the rules - just like NASCAR - they change the
    armatures of $80.00 motors with $28.00 motors and do other "creative"
    things...and sometimes they're hard to catch because the mods are
    slight and give them just enough edge...
    
    As far as kits seeming Mickey Mouse...in a way - you're 100% correct.
    Most kits are meant to provide a basis from which a kid can "test
    the waters" to see if he "catches the bug".  If the interest is
    there, both the kit manufacturers and after-market sources are
    available to increase both the realiability and performance of the
    kits.  Some of the items you listed as questionable are some of
    the first items to get replaced - front ends, dog-bones, gearboxes
    and chassis components - ie: shocks, shock towers, steering linkage
    and the chassis itself.
    
    More and more manufacturers are now offering kits that offer a good
    degree of racing compentitiveness right out of the box - the Team
    Losi JRX-2 (2 years in development) is an excellent example.
                        
    Stock motors (included in kits) - these are generally used for what
    is termed "back yard bashing" or "pavement pounding" in shopping
    mall parking lots.  They usually consist of RS540/05 type motors
    that have little torque and limited rpm and "sealed" cases.  They
    can be bought from kit manufacturers for between $14.00 to $18.00.
    This price approaches the cost of Super Stock motors on sale thru
    various mail order shops.  Just about the only advantages that are
    offered by these types of motors is the reliability for bashing
    (since they aren't real sensitive to dirt) and run time (which usually
    exceeds $28/$80 motors).
    
    I hope I didn't mislead you about 2WD cars - 4WD classes are also
    run at local tracks but the ratio of cars is about 4-1 in favor
    of 2WD.  You might see one heat of 5-6 4WD cars and 2 or 3 heats
    of 5-7 2WD cars at tracks.  And to make matters worse, most tracks
    run all 4WD cars in one heat with no distinction between super stock
    and open/modified class!
    
    Finally, about the Avante.  I saw my friends son race during the
    summer.  There is no way the Avante (or any other off-road 4WD car)
    could compete with a properly setup on-road vehicle.  The differences
    in chassis, weight and power is too great.  I really think my buddy's
    son "shelved" the Avante because he became frustrated with trying
    to "dial-in" the car.  It was very fast on certain parts of the
    track but uncontrollable on others.  And with so much tweaking,
    accidental movement/loosening of other parts became a problem so
    reliablity began to surface.  I also think a very big reason for
    his frustration was in the actual driving.  He was use to competing
    with his Blackfoot and Fox (especially his Fox) - both 2WD vehicles.
    The 4WD Avante was a completely different animal especially in the
    turns and tended to spin out (over react) to his steering.  I think
    more practice would have cured the driving problem, and slow careful
    and documented adjustments would have proved to be a better way
    to go then the constant trial and error - hit or miss - adjustment
    methods.  What adjustments or tricks that tended to work on the 2WD 
    Fox simply didn't work on the Avante!  I really think the car has
    some great potential in the hands of a good driver and mechanic.
    
    Hey...there's always BOATS!!!
    

    Thanks for taking the time to explain all that Norm.  It helps
    me a lot. I think my son will appreciate that too since he can
    then choose an appropriate starting point.
    
    Up untill we started this note we were just wandering from store
    to store scratching our heads (of course I didnt scratch mine where
    anyone could see me - keeping up the image you know).
    
    Walt

    While I've only been actively involved in R/C cars for a month or so,
    I'll pass on some of the advise I've been given.  The owner of the
    hobby shop where I bought my car (who is also an active racer) owns
    an Avante.  He doesn't race it because every time he does, something
    breaks.

    4WD cars in general are easier to drive, but require more maintenance
    and repair.  The Optima-Mid (I'd get the SE as you probably will end up
    there, one piece at a time) is a good choice if you insist on 4WD.

    I'd recommend a 2WD car.  Of the 50 or so cars that show up twice a
    week at our local race track, there are 4-8 4WD (stock, modified and
    open in combined) and the rest are 2WD stock.  I haven't seen a Fox but
    there are ALOT of RC10s.  The JRX2 has rapidly become the 2nd most
    popular car (with a corresponding increase in the used RC10 market).  I
    bought a JRX2.  

    The RC10 is probably one of the strongest cars on the market and has a
    huge selection of after-market "go faster" parts.  Buy ball-bearings
    before you start to put it together.

    The JRX2 is a faster car "out of the box" (ball-bearings, graphite
    chassis included in the kit) but has suffered from a couple of weak
    parts (front A-arms and bulkhead, wheels) which Team Losi has remedied
    but I had to order direct from them (Ranch Pit Stop) because the
    distribution network hasn't filled up with the new ones yet (it is full
    of parts though, a very good sign).  I'd strongly recommend a JRX2 as
    I'm very happy with mine (won the C-main last time out...there where 44
    2WD stock cars, 7 per heat).

    Brad

    I'm enjoying these descriptions and experiences of the various 2w
    and 4w vehicles, and was wondering if one of you wouild take a minute
    and throw a few prices on the different vehicles.
    
    A few notes ago, I mentioned that I purchased a SHINSEI 2W Truck
    for #1 son @ xmas.  Thing lasted 1 (one) hour and ran backwards
    all the way back to the store.  The folks at the store were
    great...they let me test the last 4 that they had and ALL FOUR went
    immediately into reverse.  Now, I know it was a "toy" but #1 son
    is still (10 years old) looking to Dad to replace it.
    
    				Help....
    
    We spent $50 for the unit and twice that in the aggravation of finding
    another one that works.
    
    [flame on]
    
    Shensie truck is now CHINSEY truck as far as I'm concerned!
    
    [flame off]
    
    mike

    I can't speak directly about the Avante, I've never even seen one run
    (and I race every week so that probably means something).  I can talk
    about 4wd vs. 2wd though, I've tried both.

    I started out with a 4wd (Tamiya Hot Shot 2) because I liked building
    and this one looked fun.  It was fun to build, it was fast, real heavy,
    real stable and real easy to drive.  All good things.  It was also a
    major chore to have it ready to race every week.  4wd's with 2 (or more)
    diffs, an extra set of dog bones and front wheels that drive AND steer
    have more parts and are more difficult to clean and maintain than 2wd's.

    After racing my Hot Shot for nearly a year I saw my first Avante sitting
    in a display case in the store.  I thought "my god, look at that thing,
    it's amazing" and it is one hell of a car to look at.  My next thought
    was "I'd sure hate to maintain that thing for racing".  I mentioned this
    to the guy running the store and he agreed.

    This fall I started running my Hot Shot at the in-door off road track in
    Derry.  I ran it a few times and realized it was the wrong car.  It's
    much better at ovals than off-road (too heavy, not enough suspension). 
    It's not a "competition level" car (a modified motor would destroy it). 
    There aren't any 4wd cars to compete with, most everybody else runs
    2wd's.

    So I retired the Hot Shot and now I run a 2wd Turbo Ultima.  Switching
    from 4 to 2wd was quite an experience.  I never realized how useful it
    was to have driving front wheels pulling you through corners.  2wd is
    much harder to drive than 4wd.  But on the other hand 2wd clean up is
    great, I now spend more time racing than cleaning, what a concept.

    Anyway, if you really want a 4wd, make sure it's a simple design.  I
    wouldn't really recommend the Avante unless you really do prefer the
    maintenance side of things.  I've seen a few Optima-mid's in action and
    they were fairly impressive especially the Turbo Optima-mid SE.  I saw
    an SE on its very first outing and it was already screaming before any
    tuning or adjustments.  Pretty impressive. 
    
    Last month (I think) there was a comparison of the top 4wd's in RC Car
    Action magazine, you might check that out. 

    The hot off-road 2wd's right now seem to be RC-10's, JRX-2's and
    Ultima's, at least where I race.  RC-10 are the most popular, JRX-2's
    are real fast (but haven't won anything yet) and there is nothing wrong
    with Ultima's (except maybe that 240ST dud they ship with the Turbo
    Ultima).

    For something less pricey, I just replaced my son's Grasshopper (don't
    buy one if you ever want to race off road) with a Tamiya Falcon.  It's
    cheap (cost me $97 mail order), has a good suspension, oil shocks and
    runs well.  RC Car Action pushes Raiders but a friend "on my racing
    team" got one for Christmas and I must say I not real impressed.

    As for prices, Avante-class 4wd's will set you back about $300(US) mail
    order.  Turbo Ultima/RC-10/JRX-2 class 2wd's run about $200(US) mail
    order.  Add to this the price of a radio, batteries and your favorite
    motor of course.

    For ideas about prices of other cars (and trucks) pick up a copy
    of RC Car Action and look through the (zillions) of ads.

    -- Don Senechal

    
    Since you mentioned the Tamiya Fox I might as well take a few shots at
    it while I'm here.  As far as I'm concerned the Fox has two fatal flaws
    (in addition to its mono-shock front suspension). 
    
    First, the Fox uses a little bitty tub to contain all its electrics,
    just like the Hot Shot.  This tub is small enough to make it a pain to
    fit servos, a receiver and speed control into it and don't even think
    about changing crystals, you either got to take the car apart or chop
    holes in it.  The tub is also closed up to keep dirt out but this also
    keeps heat in which makes it real tough on electronic speed controllers
    (and if the Fox has the same speed controller as the Hot Shot, it (the
    speed controller) basically qualifies as garbage). 
    
    The second problem is the bad one though, Tamiya Foxes run about the
    same price as a base RC-10 and there is really no comparison between
    the two cars.  The RC-10 is not only a great performer at that level
    but it can be made into a great modified car or a great oval track car
    and even (with the right work) a reasonable on road car.
    
    For that matter, a base Ultima can be gotten for about the same price
    but it doesn't have as many aftermarket parts available for it so it
    doesn't quite have the same all around potential. 
    
    -- Don Senechal
    

.3

 >   Since he is 13 (going on 33) I dont think maintainance would be
 >   much of a problem except for parts while in Georgia (with no RC
 >   shops around). He would need to get parts from the hobby shop
 >   here, thru us.
    

You will not have to worry about parts available in Georgia. This hobby is
very popular in Georgia. I don't know where in Georgia your son is staying
but a quick look in the yellow pages will help him find what he needs.


Eric

P.S.  I'd like to here more about the Raider as a beginners car, if anyone
      has experience with it. 

    re.3
    Eric is right, RC cars are very big here in GA. There are several
    big tracks in Snellville and Lawrenceville (suburbs of Atlanta)
    and the Bolink Co. is located right here in Buford (north of Atlanta).
    I have found ARCAR to be the best shop devoted to only cars, it
    is located in Doraville.  So you see Walt, we're not so bad off
    as most of you Yanks would believe...
    

    Tongue-in-cheek observation from an ex-South Carolinian:
    
    Atlanta isnt Georgia. Atlanta is in Georgia.  Get in your car and 
    drive about 3 hours south and east...thats Georgia :}   Ask around.  
    There are folks from Georgia, and there are folks from Atlanta.
    
    Anyway, my son has seen the articles about the nice facilities near
    Atlanta for RC cars in RC Car Action, but being an hour southeast of 
    Macon is smack in the middle of nowhere (or middle Georgia which 
    means the same thing to me), and too far away to be of much good to 
    him.

    Mail-order seems to be the way to go for him. Luckily there are
    outfits like Tower Hobbies with extensive catalogues.
    

    Walt