Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    Mike,
    	How would one not submit to a warrantless search?
    
    	It's been my experience that under the very unnatural circumstances
    leading up to the search, unnatural in the context that the subjector
    enforcement representative has ALL the power and the subjectee has NONE
    the officer is ready and loaded for bear, the citizen, if he knows
    what is healthful and expedient must become totally passive in order
    to come through the experience unscathed.  When a law enforcement
    officer STOPS your free comings and goings you are in a very real
    though unofficial sense under arrest.  The only way I can think of to
    push the event to a speedy end or complicate it quickly is to ask, "Am
    I under arrest SIR?  If not, please allow me to go on my way NOW.  If
    you're going to search I want it on record as I have given you no cause
    to detain me or suspect me of any wrong doing."  At this point what
    happens next will probably involve a serious attitude problem on the
    part of the law enforcement officer and perhaps an additional helping
    of grief on the subjectee's part.
    
    	I have never had any luck on the road with attempts toward self
    preservation in this situation, only managing to aggravate the
    situation.  I may have been better off defending myself against someone
    bent on taking what was mine, including the possibility of doing me
    bodily harm in the process.  You see, that would have been natural with
    a level playing field and every man for himself.
    
    	Maybe we should carry this over to FIREARMS should it expand to a
    large discussion.
    
    	Spoken with much restraint,
    Steve

    
    If you don't mind me videotaping your search....
    
    fred();

    re:1
    
    > How would one not submit to a warrantless search?
    
    	In the words of Nancy Reagan, just say no ;-) Of course this is
    easier said than done. I agree with .1 in that you usually feel
    compelled to say "OK" when asked, because you feel you have nothing to 
    hide. 
    
    	After it happens, you feel like you've just been submitted to a
    Gastapo like tactic. You also tend to think of the "I should'a/could'a"
    and "The next time...", but the reality is that next time you'd probably 
    do the same thing.
    
    	About the only thing I think I've done in a similar situation is to
    ask what I've been pulled over/detained for. Perhaps someday, when I'm
    not in any hurry to get some place, I'll answer Yes to the question, "Do
    you mind if I have a look in your car ?" ;-)
    
    	Ray

    
    re: Note 1484.1 by ABACUS::BIONDI
    * How would one not submit to a warrantless search?
    
    Just say no... is the correct response.
    
    There are 3 modes of contact a peace officer may come into contact
    with the population:
    
    Consensual, Detention, Arrest.
    
    When the cop is peeking in your window shooting the breeze with you
    at a roadblock, you are at the consensual contact point.  In order
    to DETAIN someone, probable cause must be present to do so.  
    
    You are under no obligation to incriminate yourself (4th and 5th 
    amendment) by submitting to a search.  
    
    Keep in mind MOST INFORMATION IS VOLUNTEERED.  
    
    Cop: "May I see your license registration and insurance card?"
    If you say "yes" and PRESENT IT to him, he doesn't need probable
    cause, YOU VOLUNTEERED.  This will usually result in your arrest
    (i.e. getting a ticket, or standing bareassed on the side of the road).
    
    As you elude to, only assert this when witnesses are present, otherwise
    you may find one of those police issue flashlights upside your head.
    
    You are under no obligation to identify yourself unless you are
    being arrested.  We've been conditioned to go with the flow, and in
    rare (?) cases, look what happens.  If the "game warden's" suspected
    something wrong, they could have gone to a magistrate and affirmed
    under penalty that you broke a law, a search warrant for a dead
    deer at your address would be issued, and they could check it out
    and suffer the consequences (a simply apology would do) if their 
    allegation were unfounded.  
    
    Regards,
    MadMike

    Howdy --
    I live and hunt in Colorado. I called the Colo DOW and asked about this
    search...Neb. was the "host" state. The host state, whenever these
    things are planned, has the option of "inviting" other state DOW's as
    well as ANY FEDERAL AGENCY they wish. The Feds see this as an oportunity
    to harrass everyone. Over 100 illigal aliens and over 100 lbs of pot
    was busted at this checkpoint...no game violations as far as the officer
    I talked to knew about, but I bet there was, it's just that illigal
    alien and pot make better news stories. Also, 60 lbs of the 100 was in
    one vehicle, so the averages as far as catching alot of illigal
    activity isn't as good as "over 100 lbs of pot" sounds. 
    
    The thing to say ANYTIME you are asked if they may look in your car is, 
    "NO..not without a warrent." Saying anything else, whether you have
    someting to hide or not, is what has lead,
    in part, to the erosion of our individual rights as Americans.
    
    

    	If you say, "Yes, I do mind if you look in my car", can they
    detain you while they try to get a warrant ? Is it enough probable
    cause to detain you while they try ? Can they just detain you for the
    hell of it ? What recourse do you have if they say, "Wait here then",
    and an hour later, you're still there. What if you say "No you can't",
    and they do it anyway ?
    
    	My guess is that the vast majority of people simply submit to the
    search. That's probably because many aren't sure enough of their rights
    to push the issue, so they allow what they think will be the inevitable 
    conclusion anyway. Hell, they're already stopping you without any probable 
    cause. This means it's not just a random search, which is how I thought 
    they got around DWI road blocks and that pesky illegal search and seizure 
    thang ;-)
    
    	Ray

    re .6
    
    I had a friend that was stopped on I-80 on the COlo/Neb border quite
    sometime ago because he or his car fit a "profile". The Officer asked
    him if he was carrying any weapons or drugs, he said no. the cop asked
    if he minded if he searched my friends car, to which my friend said
    "Look I told you I don't have any of that stuff and you can't search my
    car." The cop let him go. (This was also at 3am)

    re: Note 1484.6 by FOUNDR::DODIER
    
    The police are smart. They know they are dancing a fine issue.  If
    you play games with them long enough, you will hang yourself.
    
    YOU must put the officer on the defensive and control the issue.
    If he controls the situation you will get in trouble.  Ask HIM the
    questions, "do you have probable cause?  No?  Goodbye" and drive
    off.
    
    Let me address this:
    
    } If you say, "Yes, I do mind if you look in my car", can they
    } detain you while they try to get a warrant ?
    No.  The warrant can be served at your domicile or residence.  It
    won't be issued.
    
    } Can they just detain you for the hell of it ?
    
    Not without specific and articulatable facts, which the don't have.
    Therefore, no (straight) judge is going to issue a warrant, and they
    know it.
    
    } "Wait here then",and an hour later, you're still there.
    You're controlling the situation, remember.  "Officer, am I being
    detained?  No?  Goodbye".
    
    } What if you say "No you can't", and they do it anyway ?
    
    Welcome to AmeriKa.  We let our guard down.
    
    MadMike