Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    Inadequate accuracy , bumms me right out, donut do the same to you?
    
    Really , I have a TC HAWKEN 54 with original barn door for a front
    sight. Comes with 1 in 48 twist with a 28 inch barrel , I think its
    28" barrel. Anyway, I have never been happy with the accuracy of this
    weapon.
    
    I usually throw miniballs (TC labels em as Maxiballs) with 90 grain of
    RS select Pyro.
    
    Ever since I picked this Hawken up it has consistly made me look
    inadequate as a marksmen and a sportsman. It never fails to offer
    better than a 7 to 8 inch group @ 50 yards. My last attempt to master
    this weapon included clamping the rifle in a vise and firing multiple
    shots with the same target. 8^(  
    
     I have shot a few rifles with high personal satisfaction in accuracy
    over the years and have never had a rifle treat me with such intense
    disrespect as this hawken.
    
    I was chatten with a few folks at the range about my perdicament and 
    was surprised to find several people stateing they had the same problem
    with their relationships with TC hawken rifles. The only solution I
    have been offerred so far is hangin the hawken and replacinit with an
    inline TC or Khight.
    
    I hoping to hear some feedback from other  TC HAWKEN owners to
    determine if I should try scoping the TC hawken or hangin it. If I
    hangit, I am looking for feedback if anyone can on their experinces
    with accuracy with the new inlines.
    
    
    Questions I have ..
    
    1. Do I really deserve this disrespect from this hawken, Is it possible I
    	really am to blame and that I need a scope to help me out?
    
    2. Is 1.5 inch patterns unrealistic for black power rifles @ 100 yards?
    
    3. Is investing in one of the new inline muzzleloaders a better solution 
     compared to putting more money into scoping the TC Hawken?
    
    I have fired several inline muzzleloaders , same caliber and powder
    measured in my Hawken and was astounded in the dramtic increase in recoil 
    compared to my TC Hawken. ..  I know , I know , the new inlines are alot 
    smaller and lighter which accounts for the increase in recoil, .. is there 
    any means to tame some of the recoil these smaller TC and Knight inline
    smokepoles have?
    
    Ron

    Ron,
    
     I had a similar problem with a TC renegade. I initially started with
    the 56 cal. smoothbore, when Mass. only allowed the use of
    smoothbore's. This gun was adequately accurate...easily 1" or under
    groups at 50 yds.
    
    When the law in Mass. changed to allow the use of rifled barrels, I
    picked up a used 54 cal. rifled TC renegade, thinking I'd gain something.
    
    Well, I looked for black powder, as I had run out and wanted to shoot
    this newley acquired gun. I ended up buying pyrodex, as the 3-4 stores
    I stopped at only had PY, and no black powder.
    
    Anyway, ended up having the same experince as you described, and could
    not believe it! I tried using several types of conicals, as well as
    roundballs, with many different increments pyrodex...to no avail.
    I was totally frustrated!
    
    I then called TC, and spoke to one of their gunsmiths. The first thing
    that he recommended, was to "throw away" the Pyrodex! He then stressed
    the importance of cleaning between shots with the rifled barrel/ BP
    combo. He recommended 90 grains of BP with roundball as a starting
    point, for recommended load.
    
    Once I tried this, I immediately gained respectable groups again @
    50yds. Can't really state that the gun was more accurate than my
    smoothbore, but was at least as good as it.
    
    I tried to work up a load with maxi balls, but couldn't get it better
    than 1.5-2" @ 50 yds. I went back to the roundballs, and have used
    the 90 grain load since. I guess that I concluded that the rate of
    twist, was not fast enough to really optimize conicals.
    
    I'm sure with the in lines, or the newer/faster rate of twist rifled
    guns, you could do much better. I've settled for the accuracy that
    I have achieved, as acceptable for hunting, with 80 yds being the 
    max range I probably be shooting, especially with open sights....
    no scopes allowed for Mass. muzzleloading.
    
    Barry

Pyrodex can cause from very inacurate results in 54 Calaber.  Myself and several 
others were experencing difaculties a few years back.  I had a renagade that I 
was using and switched to pyrodex and fired 2 shots and it was good enough.  The 
next year I started playing with it and would totaly miss the paper 1 out of 4 
shots.  I thought it was my eyes giving out so I sold it and got a Knight MK-85 
with a scope.  Once again about every three or four shots I would be off the 
paper at 100 yards.  I had someone behind me watching and they said I was about 
4 feet off.  I tried TC maxi balls, TC maxi hunters, buffalo bullets, great 
plains bullets and sabots.  All the same.  I then switched to Black Powder and 
my groups are now about 3 inches.  The eyes are going...

Check out the Firearms notes file Note #728 and replies

I can't offer any observations regarding pyrodex or the conicals, but I
can tell you my experiences with working up a load for a new .54 cal.
The rifle has a 28" barrel, with a 1 in 48" twist.  I've only tried
black powder and round balls (.530 inch).

I tried several combinations of powder and patch.  With a .010 inch patch,
I got stringing.  Within the .015 inch patch, I couldn't get better
than 3 inches at 30 yards.  I finally got a 1 inch group (30 yards)
with the .020 inch patch and 100 grains of FFg black powder.  In other
words, you just have to try a combination until you find one that works.

I'm still not completely happy with the results I'm getting.  I think
my next step will be to try a .535 inch ball instead of the .530.  I
also discovered (the hard way) that I need to clean my barrel after
every shot.  And that means running a patch with cleaning solvent and
a couple of dry patches.  If I don't, it's awfully hard to load.

When I was working up my load, I was fortunate to have some expert
advice on hand.  I'm sure that some of the Colorado Springs shooters
know Ron Melchert.  Anyway, his cut on this is to never use Pyrodex,
and only use round balls.  I'm not sure if it's some purist thing, or
if he has more technical reasons.

Before I would try a scope, I'd have someone else shoot it.  Preferrably 
someone who you know to be a good shot.  Adding a scope won't change the way
your rifle shoots.

Jerry

I cast my own maxiballs, but I dont think it helps It just seems like a cool 
thing to do it is also cheaper.
I have to shoot 100 grains of RS, or I cant hit the broad side of a barn.
From a rest I get 2" to 3" groups depending on the weather.
However my hunting buddy can clover leaf his WITH factory maxiballs and 
Real black powder.I can't  even with his gun.
MY 0.02 would be work on you load(amount of powder) cos it will work just 
have to find the magic amount. I wont shoot black powder I am scared of it.
It is also hard to get. 

    
    RE .4 
    
     IF any Colorado black powder shooter want to get hold of Ron Melchert
    he can be reached at 719-372-3286, he run a gun smithing businees out
    of his hime. He also runs the shooting range for the Colorado Springs 
    muzzle loaders.
    
     Re .5 If you need blackpowder Ron keeps it on hand.
    
     I have visited his shop a number of times and he always has taken the
    time to talk and make suggestion to help me improve!
    
    Dave

    I don't shoot a hawken, but I have had problems in the past with trying
    to pack the load too tight.  My groups were all over the place until I
    just started seating it somewhat firm instead of trying to really pack
    it down.
    
    Just a thought.
    Wess
    
    Our early 2 day muzzleloading season is a week away!

I never could get tight groups with pyrodex...  never had ignition problems
but know a ton of people who did...  i changed over to BP for mainly the 
possibility of having an ignition problem during hunting, the bonus was
that my groups tightened immedietly.

good luck...

Fra

ps

anyone know any local shops (central mass) that carry peep sights for
hawkens???  that place in pepperal have them??? hunters rendesvous???

    
    Fra,
    
         At worse you can call the T/C Custom Shop @ 800-243-4570 and order
    it. They'll send it right out to you.
    
                                                           Guy

Thanks for the info Guy, i'm going to give em a call and see what they
recommend.  Any of you guys out there using a peep?  any recommendations?
does it mount to the barrel, or behind the hammer?

the rear sights on these things really bite.

any help or opinions welcomed

Fra

    Paul,
    
    Didn't think Mass allowed use of peep sights for muzzle?
    
    Barry

    Eureka!..........thankyou
    
    My group deterioration on the .54 CVA Mountain Rifle started just about
    the time I started "bouncing" the ramrod on the powder charge. Didn't
    used to do that and could shoot 4"groups with open sights (100yd).
    Since then its been more like 10"
    
    Missed the connection......(GOEX only.....)
    
    

re:
>                   <<< Note 1474.11 by WMOIS::TESTAGROSSAB >>>
>                              -< Check the Regs! >-
>
>    Paul,
>    
>    Didn't think Mass allowed use of peep sights for muzzle?
>    
>    Barry

i didn't see anything in the reg's regarding peep sights... scopes are 
prohibited...  is a peep sight considered a scope???

Fra

    nope...peep isn't a scope, thought it was worded such that the entire
    rifle had to be a pre 18?? design.
    
    maybe another case of the abstracts open to interpretation, like the
    use of releases for archery.
    
    Barry

>    nope...peep isn't a scope, thought it was worded such that the entire
>    rifle had to be a pre 18?? design.
>   
>    maybe another case of the abstracts open to interpretation, like the
>    use of releases for archery.
>    
>    Barry

according to the abstracts:

"limited to smoothbore or rifled flintlock or caplock, pre-1865 design or
facsimile, .44 to .775 caliber; barrel length 18" or more with only one 
barrel operative.  In-line ignition systems permitted... scopes prohibited
etc...

now, i have no idea what "pre-1865 design" means...  but I can't imagine a
knight inline is pre-1865 design...

possibly pre-1865 refers to the ignition system only? (i.e. no use of 
attachments to nipple for rifle primers??)  who knows...

anyone else got any info on this?

Fra