Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    I short on the details for the moment - hope to get the full "saga"
    this weekend... A good friend just returned to MA from his fifth go
    at Montana elk hunting.Heard he had great success with a "trophy"
    (P&Y class). Sorry that all I know - surviving on the "rumor" myself.
    Seems he'd been difficult to find, evidently been out spreading the
    news ;^)
    I 'll add more details next week.
    
    

    Jeff;
    
    Just a bit itchy, are we? :>)  Here in my neck of the woods in Ontario,
    Canada, my moose season doesn't open until the 16th of Oct. and deer
    opens on the 6th of Nov.  (These are both for gun season.)  I can
    hardly wait, though.  Had a wonderful time doing both last year. 
    During the moose season our group of 10 had only one bull tag, but
    anyone could harvest a calf.  I was the only one who saw anything.  It
    was the third day of the season, and I was on watch at the top of a
    steep hardwood covered hill, overlooking a heavy stand of evergreen at the 
    bottom, and on the other side of the evergreens is a large beaver
    meadow.  After sitting quiet for a couple of hours, I could hear
    something slashing gently through the water for about 15 minutes.  Off
    to my right at about 200 yards there was movement where the bottom of
    the hill meets the evergreens.  It was so overcast and slowly getting
    duller so that even the scope couldn't pick out what was moving every
    now and then.  After what seemed like an eternity, (probably 5
    minutes!), I could pick out an adult moose very slowly picking it's way
    through the young spruce.  Every 4 or 5 steps it would stop, but it
    seemed to make a point of stopping where I couldn't get a look at it's
    head.  Patience won out though, and just about when it was directly
    below me, (about 80 yards down), it stepped out of the evergreens; a VERY 
    large cow!  Oh well. I thought I was doing well to see it that close up, 
    when it turned and walked right up the hill directly towards me like it
    was walking on flat land!  I darned near passed out!  Halfway up it
    stopped, and spent about 2 or 3 minutes just smelling the air, then it
    proceeded up the hill again, just swinging slightly away from me and
    stopping right beside me at the top of the hill.  (Later, after I could
    walk without falling down, I paced it out at 18 yards).  It stood there
    for another 2 or three minutes while I was trying to remember how to
    breathe.  Man, they're big that close up!!!  I finally remembered that
    I had a camera in my knapsack.  What a dummy.  I eased over a step or
    two before it saw my movement, and then it turned into a locomotive,
    and beelined straight through the brush.  If I never see another moose,
    I'll always remember how fortunate I was that day.  Hope this wasn't
    too long a story, but it was my most memorable moose hunt, even though
    we didn't get anything.
    
    Safe hunting,
    
    Rick
    
    
    suddenly and walked

    This doesn't really count but a guy on a motorcycle by my parents home
    took out a very large doe Saturday morning. The details were quite
    fuzzy as my mother is an emotional person but when she found them they 
    were both laying in the road. The doe had to be destroyed by the police
    and the biker was taken by ambulance. He wasn't looking too good.
    
    Unfortunate for both parties
    Bob M�

Went moose hunting. Got a 500lbs calf on first day and a 1150lbs bull the 
second day. Did not know what to do for the rest of the week.

The calf was with the biggest cow that we have ever seen. Did not have a cow 
tag, just as well as the two of them were in a swamp 1 1/2 miles from the 
lake that we were on. After dragging the calf out of the swamp to the lake, 
loadinf it in the canoe and getting it across the lake we had enough. Luckily 
we shot the bull less then 80 yards from a road. 

Will be eating moose well into next year.

Les

    Hi Les,
    	What were the drags like?
    
    	I've never dragged any big game, not to mention a very large one.
    
    	How did you drag them, how long did it take, how did you get them
    	into the canoe and vehicles?  Was any of it FUN?
    	
    	Oh, by the way, what did you shoot them with?
    
    	Thanks!
    Steve

    re drags:
    
    Having recently dragged not one, not two, but three deer out on the
    archery opener, I found a relatively neat method.
    
    My first doe, weighing in excess of 130lb field dressed dropped in the
    tangles (new growth in old clear cut). I did not have any thing with me
    but my equipment cord (you know, the cord you haul your bow up a tree
    with). Bad planning but a short think-out of the problem yielded some
    answers.
    
    First was, the deer definately drags better if you pull it head first.
    Low friction of the hair on the forest floor. But the head keeps
    bending around on the the deer's long supple neck.  What to do? I
    lifted the head up and lashed the two front legs together behind her
    neck. This supported the head. Then I found a hardy stick (mine was
    oak) about two inches thick. I wrapped the free end around the stick
    and rolled up the rope/cord until the head, supported by the two front
    legs, was free of the ground.
    
    I stuffed my gloves and hat under the shoulder of my coat and rested
    the stick over the padding. Experimenting with height found the best
    height was when the deer's nose and hooves kept bumping me in the butt
    every now and then. The gutted body cavity faced upward, remaining
    clear of all but a leaf or two.  The 500yd drag was easily done, over
    dead falls, up hills and even through a swampy area.
    
    It worked so well, I tried on my fiancee's doe in the evening and my
    second doe that dropped almost where the first one did. BEst part is
    that you only need the cord. any old stick will work as long as it not
    rotten.
    
    
    

Bob,

Congrats on the deer...!!!  but I have to ask you...  what happened to 
you plan to go to level 5???  ;^)

seriously, I was reading some old notes yesterday and saw one of your replys
in 1241...  this morning after reading this note a got a chuckle and figured
i'd have to rib ya a little... :^)

after reading thru the string I got to thinking that everyone is at a level 5
during their hunting career... Isn't everyone always trying to perfect the 
method???  were all just doing it at different levels along the way...

anyways, I learned a nice little drag method myself a couple of years back, 
works very nicely for does and bucks. much the same as your method but without 
the stick...

take your knife and cut 2 slits along the front legs behind the first joint in
the ankle, make the slit about 2-3" long between the bone and the tendon of 
the joint.  slip your rope into both slits, tie a loop in the rope, put the 
legs over the deers head (into the horns if available) one swing around the 
neck just behind the head slip thru the tied loop and start draggin...
(if it's a trophy, simply forego the once around the neck and lash the legs 
into the rack.)

no knots necessary (cept for the tied loop at the end of the rope) the tension 
keeps the legs up tight, and the legs don't flail around while your pulling it 
thru the woods.  the front legs up close to the snout work as skidder bars
keeping the head from getting hung up...  makes the deer more aerodynamic ;^)
and the drag 50% easier...

works like a charm.

FWIW, Fra

oh ya, one other thing I learned a LONG time ago from personal experience...  
don't ever split the pelvis in the woods...  makes for a miserable drag... 
;^)  

Dragging a 500lbs animal out of a swamp and a mile of thick bush does not 
equate with fun.

The method is simple. Shove an appropriate length of stick through front leg 
tendons and nose of animal. Tie the whole mess together leaving three lengths 
of rope. Attach three idiots to the ends of the rope and have at it. An hour 
or two of grunting and tugging should get you about a mile, depending on the 
size, strength and stamina of three idiots. One of our guys is 6foot three 
and weighs 260lbs. Big dumb guys are a must for this kind of operation. If 
you are smarter, you quarter the beast and pack it out in pieces.

Once you have it near the shore of an appropriate body of water, have two 
guys hold the animal legs up while two other guys shove a canoe on its side 
as close as possible under the animal's back. Flip the whole mess over. 
Paddle to unloading location and reverse process.

If you are going to do this sort of activity, make sure that you and your 
hunting partners are not couch potatoes that will risk a cardiac arrest due 
to the unfamiliar physical activity. Taking a mac-attack while wrestling with 
a large dead moose is the highest risk hunting activity up here. I know of a 
number of hunting parties that ended up packing out one of theirs along with 
the moose.

Les

    
    Thanks Les!
    
    	Reading your reply sure was FUN!
    
    	You'd think after a few milleniums plus or minus of hunting that 
    	some genius would have discovered a painless way to do it.  Maybe
    	we should have remained nomadic, you know just sit around the
   	carcass, fart, sleep and lie to each other until all the meat was
    	gone or some very agressive predator made us one more link in the
        food chain.
    
    Steve

Eating it on the spot was discussed and dropped, as among other reasons the 
mother cow was quite aggressive. We had to wait over two hours just to be 
able to approach the calf and next day the cow showed up within 20 yards of 
our camp where we had the calf hanging. 

Our nomadic ancestors did not have game officers and hunting regulations to 
content with, they would have bagged the cow as well and pitched a nearby 
camp with grins all around.

Les

    Level 5: absolutely. Look in my UP hunting note. The goal was to reduce
    the doe count. We decided to take medium does, not young'uns cuz some
    could be male and not full grown mature does as they would most likely
    survive ok. 
    
    The next step was to track, track and plan. Then set up the ambush in
    the best of places. Then work on scent control and plan the shots.
    
    Not one of the deer (collectively there were eleven deer to witness the
    three separate shots) knew we were there and are still scratching their
    collective noggins (if they can reach) as to what the devil happened.
    On my first shot, two does jumped a few bounds and then sat around
    snorting for about five minutes. They were even looking in the wrong
    direction (where my shot deer went).
    
    So methodology (other than planning the drag) was spot on. Given that
    my fiancee scored with first draw on first day of first hunt, atests
    that the entire strategy works. I have four scouting sessions up there
    this year, but only the last one was in this series of ridges and
    swamps. I chose it because of the high incidence of running into deer
    while traversing the area to other, more well known areas.
    
    I must tell you that I was tempted to let the second doe pass. I kept
    thinking about the rubs in the area. It was the philosophical viewpoint
    that pulled me back from level 4 (trophy hunting). The UP is really in
    trouble if our winter is tough. NOt that our three deer will win the
    day, but every one of them counts
    
    We have three tags left between us. None are good until 11/15, but then
    we will go up again. One of my tags, the firearm, is buck only. Olivia
    is not interested in using firearms. So she will continue with her XI
    Prodigy.
    
      

Man is this file quiet!!!!!!  come on, it's hunting season!!!
I need to hear some stories... anything...  evena good arguement would be 
terrific!!! ;^)

Bob,

just ribbin ya a bit buddy...  not to worry, as was said before, any deer with
a bow is a trophy and any reason you decide upon, while taking one legally
is is yours solely.  So if your intentions are to thin the doe population 
before the winter hits, or to fill the freezer, or to shoot for bone, or
shoot only nice bone, or just hope to hone any or all of your skills and you 
accomplish it, then congrats are in order.

130# does... WOW...  man those are nice size girls up there... :^)  whats the
average size/weight of bucks taken???

Congrats to your and your lady friend!!  I think it's great...

Fra

oh ya, almost forgot to mention...  My wife showed me an article from the 
Montachusett Telegram and Gazette  about a couple who are publishing their own 
series of childrens books.  Their from Hubbardston, and the books are 
geared towards hunting, conservation, wildlife etc  on a childs level... the 
parents have 3 daughters who have all taken a healthy interest in hunting...
just an FYI...

    
    I was hoping to get out this weekend to do some pheasent hunting
    and scouting. Problem #1, 5th year wedding anniversary, wife wants
    to do something "Special". I suggeested hunting she suggested I sleep
    on the couch and think about it. Problem #2, sore back from sleeping
    on couch. Problem #3 Rain. All day saturday. I might be able to sneak
    out to the local WMA tomorrow morning as I have the day off, if the
    rain holds off that is. I dont hunt deer there so maybe next
    weekend I'll be able to scout my regular spot some more. I did notice last 
    time that the swamps had more water in them and with all the rain 
    we're going to get this weekend it should help alot. 
    
    Walt

    Fra, was not taking exception to the level #5 comment. I had to go back
    read the note, to make certain I recalled the concept clearly. This was
    kinda of nice where level five and level two coincide because of game
    management needs.
    
    Two years ago, a fourteen year old I was guiding in the hunting way
    took a 190 pound doe (I weighed that monster) from this area. The drag
    on that left a bruise on my shoulder for almost a month. Just about did
    me in too. After I got it out of the woods I decided that I had enough
    for the day. The average size doe in the UP is 130lb. There are an
    increasing number of smaller ones in the 90 to 100lb range. There are
    still a good number of monster does as well. Olivia's first three had
    two of that variety. She had an attack of buck (doe) fever and could 
    not draw the bow. When the next three arrived she got over it and took
    one of the typicals. The three deer we took looked like peas in a pod. I
    could not tell which was which without looking at the arrow strike or
    the tags.
    
    The record for deer in Michigan does not come from the UP. It is
    Livingston or Jackson County down near Detroit that has and usually
    keeps that honor. I believe the current state record is held by a woman
    from Jackson with a 273lb 13pt buck. It was an archery take as well.
    
    Bucks in the UP are even worse off than the does. Buck count is less
    than 25% of the deer herd and far too many are small and young. The
    Michigan Whitetail association is asking hunters to pass on any young
    buck unless it is a spike in the "Let 'em go and Let 'em grow"
    canpaign.
    
    The average for bucks in the western UP as little as three years ago
    was in the 150-175lb range. This was very common. We are still trying
    to get over the big fawn die-off of the spring of 1993. Really bad late
    spring weather did them in. Doe hunting was restricted in the next two
    years and the does rebounded really well in the two succeeding mild
    winters, 
    
    But western UP is not a typical archery spot. It does draw gun hunters
    from Wisconsin and Michigan in droves. No does can be taken by firearm
    unless you have a bonus tag. So the depleted bucks took it on the nose
    for the next two years. This year the DNR is getting wise and cutting
    the tags in half for gun season.
     
    So if its trophies you want, it is best to find a private landowner in
    the southeastern part of Michigan. I hunt DMU (deer management unit)
    #010 because if its relative remoteness. The closest establishment is
    the Chippewa village on Lac Vieux Desert. You hear no sounds, see no
    one at all. Even in gun season it is unusual to see someone in the
    woods.
                                                                      
                                                

My story is still told through somewhat glassy eyes since
this was my first hunt away from home (Leicester MA.).:>)

Five of the guys from the Leicester Rod and Gun and I 
left for Northern Quebec for the last week of Sept.  This
was the last week of the hunt and needless to say I was
loaded with anticipation due to the videos from previous
hunts we had spent the last few weeks watching.

We drove to Montreal took a tubo prop to the Lake Pau 
float base and then got a ride in a 1949 dehavillen (sp)
Otter to the camp.  Talk about loud, I wish I had my ear 
plugs in.

The terraine was beautiful.  The weather was getting a 
little cold.  We had some snow everyday.  The carabou 
were not running in their normal migratory paths, 
presumably do to the warm summer/fall.  We hunted hard
for the week.  During the week everbody but My friend 
Jeff and I had shot one.  We had seen some skippers but 
let them play through.

Last day,  I had been out with my buddy Ed we had hiked
up over two hills. and seem nothing in the fresh snow 
fall except for some good size bear tracks.  We went to
check on the area were He and Bruce had shot their two 
bulls, still nothing.  On our way back we saw the bear 
tracks again only this time they were covered in blood.
We followed a shot distance, thumbs on safetys, then back
tracked to find the bear had just gorged himself on a 
carcase that had been left there from the week before.

I was amazed this bear had consummed the entire 300 lb.
carabou including the exposed side of the face in two 
hours or less.  We continued down to the lake and grabbed
the canoe and headed accross the lake just below the 
rapids to take a stand.  

Four hours on the stand still nothing, Ed was having 
problems with the cold so we went back to camp to warm up
before we made our last try.  While we were at camp we
heard a series of shots.  We grabbed the spotting scope.
our friends Bruce and Jeff had just bagged a couple.  We
grabbed our guns and the guide JP and went over to give 
them a hand.  While we were helping them I spotted a 
large bull swimming the lake.  I grabbed the 30-06 and 
got set up for for the shot.  For anyone who has never 
experienced Carabou, when they swim the go fast enough to
put up a wake.  I had to keep reminding myself to breath 
as I watched the bull get out of the water.  As soon as 
he got up on shore I squeezed off the shot.  Those light
magnums do the job nicely.  One in the neck and he 
dropped like a bag of rocks.  450 lbs of bull carabou,
one hour before dark on our last day of hunting. Only 
fifteen minutes earlier I thought I was going to get 
skunked. 

Beautiful country, and a good time. ;>)

Sorry for the long note.
Good hunting
Carl

    Congratulation Carl! Glad to hear you bagged one.. I hope to experience 
    such a trip someday with some of my friends, right Walt;')?
    
    Gus

first off... congrats Carl  good shooting!!!  don't forget to enter your 
details into note 270.


Any other VT hunters out there???  I have never seen so many deer in my 
life up there... it's just incredible... people are comparing it to the hey 
days of the 60's.

unfortunately, where i'm hunting there are no oaks within miles... and the
apple crop is non-existant except a few trees here and there...  the deer are 
hangin out in the meadows, the weather has been less than perfect,
(read: downpour) windy and relatively warm... makes for great stalking, but 
tough to get within bow range in wide open meadows that have just been cut.
had one button buck standing broadside at 5 yards sunday morning, but passed 
on the shot.  With the amount of deer i'm seeing, odds are one a little 
bigger will come along.  My freezers still got venison from a couple of 
seasons ago.

I was treated to 3 deer grazing within 10-15 yards of my truck as I sat and 
glassed them from my treestand.  I even had the pleasure of watching them 
suckling on mom for a few brief seconds till she got annoyed.  Also saw 2 
bucks sparring... all in all a great weekend.

i've probably seen in excess of 150 deer in the 4 days i've been up there 
hunting, Quite a few bucks too... crossing my fingers that i see one during 
rifle.

good luck to everyone.

Fra

What's a carabou?

Les

Gee wiz guys, This is like the rod and gun, no mercy to
be found here.  ;>) ;>) ;>)

I do want to thank you.  I stand corrected the proper
spelling is caribou.  Now all I need to do is figure out
how to get the spell checker to work in notes.

Carl 

Carbou, carabu what the hell. Just teasing.

Enjoing the meat, I am sure. My father in law goes up just about every year 
and comes back with a couple. Real nice eating.

Les

    Since I started this note, I might as well contribute...
    
    My dad, my mom, my wife and myself all got Antelope..
    I shot a 4 point buck...Not real big, but it provided us w/ 115 lbs
    of meat.  I think the guy who butchered it helped himself..I swear
    this animal weighte 400 lbs when I was dragging it out of the woods.
    
    I blew it during Elk season...We had bull tags, and hunted in an
    area that required the animal to have at least 4 points (one side/
    western count)..I saw several spikes, and a GADZILLION cows...
    I did kick several cows and a nice 3 point bull out of their beds, and
    while checking them out via the scope..decided that there wasn't
    anything big enough to shoot so I backed off...Anyway, this spike had
    a brow tine that was huge...I remeber seeing it VERY distinctly..
    Well, we pack up go home and put this season behind us....While at
    work the other night, I was re-reading the REGS. for the billionth time
    and noticed this little piece that stated "any four point bull with a
    brow tine longer that 5 inches is leagle to take".  I was JUST A LITTLE
    TO LATE!!! UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
    
    Oh well....Maybe I can get a road kill this winter...I just hope it's
    not my truck...
    
    
    Jeff

    Addendum to the last note: It should read that any 3 point bull with 
    a brow tine larger than 4 inches is leagle..
    
    
    Jeff

    Hi folks.  Congratulations to all who have 'brought home the meat' so
    far.  I went moose hunting this fall, but we weren't successful as far
    as moose are concerned, but we sure had a great time!  I thought I'd
    drop a line hear based on an experience we had while we were hunting. 
    On opening morning we were all on our watches before day break.  Not
    too long after first light, a couple of fellow hunters came waltzing
    down the trail I was watching.  We hunt on Crown land, so it's open to
    anybody.  We had a short chat, and to make a long story shorter, they
    didn't know anyone was hunting in that particular area and apologized
    if they messed anything up for us and would go to another area.  Before
    they left though, they told me to be very careful of the backstop if I
    got a chance to shoot.  On their way in that morning they quite by
    accident noticed a fellow in the brush not too far from me in full
    camo from head to foot, during the gun season with a gun!!!  The only
    reason they noticed him is that he happened to move just a little when
    they were passing by.  After their hearts slowed down to approx. 200
    beats per minute, they went over to him to have a talk.  One of the
    guys suggested he immediately put on some blaze orange somewhere on his
    body, as he could be shot if he were on the other side of a moose
    someone was plugging at.  His comment...: "If you're going to shoot me,
    make sure the first one counts!"  Can you believe the outright
    stupidity of this guy?!?  I'm glad I didn't come accross him only
    because my tolerance for dumb-ass moves like this in the bush is zero,
    and I'm sure I would have got myself in trouble at least with my mouth. 
    The worst part of this type of scenario is that had someone hit him
    accidentally based on the fact that was hiding on the wrong side of a
    moose the shooter would have to live with that for the rest of their
    life.  Boy, I still get steamed when I think about this guy with his
    death-wish.  Has anyone else ever come across something like this?
    
    Safe hunting,
    
    Rick 
    

    It's unfortunate that there our people out hunting with this kind
    of attitude. With all the bad publicity towards us fellow hunters, 
    we can't afford to make any mistakes. We need to work together 
    for the good of all hunters. It's too bad that logical thinking and common
    sense has become a rarity these days.

    On a brighter note, ditto on the congratulation. There's always next year 
    for ya Rick. 
    
    Gus

    You're right, Gus.  There's always next year.  This has to be the
    longest week of the year for me though, as our gun season for deer
    opens on Monday for six days.  I'm all set, but I can't wait.  My hands
    are starting to shake and I've been counting deer instead of sheep for
    a month!
    
    Safe hunting,
    
    Rick
    

    Hi folks!  Just back to work after enjoying all last week deer hunting. 
    Man, is it tough to get back into the swing of things!  We had a great
    week off, though.  There's ten of us in our gang, and we got eight
    deer; four bucks and four does.  The biggest buck was 212 pounds, next
    at 192, 144 and 135. (Dressed weight with everything out).  The does
    weighed in at 121, 120, 119 and 110.  The suprising thing this year is 
    the oldest deer was the smallest doe at 3.5 years of age.  We weighed
    them all yesterday, and the Minstry Official stated that there had been
    quite a number of six, eight and ten pointers brought in that were only
    1.5 years old!  Must be some great antler growing feed around :>) 
    Anywho, a great time had by all.  Can't wait for next year...
    
    Rick
    
    

Got back from the deer camp. More deer this year then rabbits. Filled our 
four tags by second morning. Two does, two fans. Had trouble connecting 
with any decent bucks. They are becoming real caggy at our place. 

Saw a moose. All in all a great hunt. If we have a bad winter there will 
be serious die of as the deer population seems to be at an all time high.

Les

Well I'm back from one of the worst deer seasons of my life. I
am thoroughly and utterly disgusted with deer hunting in MASS
and I may never hunt MASS again unless I can find private land
to hunt on. It's not the fact that I didn't get a deer that bothers
me. I've gone a looong time between deer, I just want to get out
and enjoy myself. Well this year I couldn't even do that.

I do my share of scouting and found this great escape route 
4 years ago. Every year for the past 4 years deer have come down
this escape route and I am sure they would have done the same again
this year if not for some bumbling idiot! It was 6:45, the wind from
escape route to me. I hear twigs snap and leaves rustle in a thicket
that covers part of the escape route. I get ready and finally I see
it, a hunter. He is 25 yards from me and has no idea I am there. I
shine my flashlight at him and say, "Hey, I'm over here". He looks
at me and walks up the escape route in the direction the deer are (were)
going to come from. He walks maybe 75 yards and sits down, on the
escape route!

At this same time some guys were walking in from a road behind me.
As expected they pushed at least one deer towards me. The deer heads
for the escape route and see's/smells the dork sitting there. The deer
then head in my direction but behind me in some very thick cover. of
course the wind is blowing from me to him so he winds me and runs back
toward dork, then back towards me, then back to dork then he stops and
a couple minutes later tries to sneak out the back and someone else shot
him. There is no doubt in my mind that  that deer wanted to go down the
escape route and that I would have had a chance at him if dork hadn't
messed things up. I was disgusted. But wait it gets worse.

Now it's 9a.m. Dork fires a shot. I think, maybe the deer are still going
to come down the trail. Nope. 9:30 two shots from dork. Nothing again.
9:40 one shot from dork. 5 seconds later a shot from deeper in the woods
and dork gets up and heads in that direction. I hear them both leave
the woods going for coffee. GGGRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!

At 11 o'clock I got up and walked towards the road. I was cold and both
feet were asleep. As I stepped onto the road I swear I heard at least 10
shots come from the area where dork and his buddies were. What the 
heck are they shooting at anyway?  Maybe I spooked some deer towards them,
I dont know. To make a long story short I went Tuesday and saw nothing.
And I was unable to go out yesterday as my grandfather from KY came up
to MASS and yesterday was his last day here and I wanted to spend it
with him. I cant go this sat, so at best next Saturday for sure and
maybe a vacation day between now and then if we get some more snow.

My options for next year are, go to Maine to my uncles place for a week.
It was him and one other guy this year, doesnt sound crowded to me.
Hunt NH next year with Gus. Hunt mostly bow and then doe/buck season.
Skip MASS altogether, find a new place in MASS, or move deeper into
the woods where I currently go. Got a year to figure it out.


Walt

    Walt,
    
    You can come bowhunting down here in Ky with me if you want sometime.
    
    I hunt on a place in Ohio where about 10 guys hunt and have someone
    screw me up every year, either with turkeys that are just out of range
    headed my way or deer.
    
    Don't give up.
    
    Wess

    
    Thanks Wess, I may take you up on that someday.
    
    Walt

    
    Walt,
    
    	Sounds like you've had 4 years of virtually no problems. Which
    is rare in itself in Mass. on public land. Stories like yours is
    the reason I go to Pa. for a week of bow hunting. Plus enjoy every
    minute of my hunting time in MA. When I get invited to a friends
    hunting camp out in the Berkshires. To hunt private land where
    everybody knows where everyone else is going. So you don't have to
    worry about the 1 day clowns in the woods.
    
    Ron

    Hi Walt,
    	I'm sorry to hear your story.
    
    	Last year I was taking a friend to what appeared to be a good spot
    I found while scouting.  It had sign of moose, bear, dear, coyote,
    and other small game.  I thought it was the best I had found to
    date.  It was very isolated and only one convenient way in unless I
    planned a long round about alternate hike.
    
    	To make a lond story short, my friend and I got about 300 yards
    down the convenient route and saw an orange hat in the middle of the
    trail.  He screwed us and himself.  He didn't go in far enough and kept
    us from getting to it in time to do anything worth while.
    
    	Oh well, I'm new to hunting so I guess I have to expect my share of
    encounters like this on the way to success.
    
    Steve

    Howdy Walt,
    
        It could have been worse...You could have traveled way up north to 
    Moosehead and had a monster buck walk out 40 yards in front of you on a 
    logging road and then missed your shot using a scoped 7 MAG....TWICE!
    
    Oh that's right...you already did that...
    
    
    Sorry couldn't resist....
    
    
    Scot

    
    re first two of last three replies
    
    You're right, in MA I was lucky to have a nice area and not
    be bothered by some fool. I guess it was just a matter of time
    before it happened. I've decided to buy a muzzleloader for next
    year and use that along with the bow. there are definitley fewer
    guys in the woods then.
    
    
    re -1
    
    Scot, if you hadn't cooked breakfast that morning I would have been
    well enough to hold that cannon still long enough to get a steady
    sight picture. But boy he was a BIG UN'!  I still kick myself in
    the butt for missing him. For those that dont know, we were hunting
    way up in Maine and I wasnt feeling good so I headed back to the truck.
    Right in front of the truck was a monster buck, he was huge! I had
    been hunting a clearcut and had my scope turned all the way up so when
    I put it on this bad boy I couldnt tell where my bullet was gonna hit.
    I lowered the gun turned down the power and waited for him to cross
    the road in front of me. he didnt. he started walking away from me
    instead. I didnt want to shoot him in the butt with a 7 rem mag as
    I felt I would lose way too much meat and he deserved better than that.
    So I waited. A little too long I guess. I tried to put one in his ribs
    as he angled away but I missed. Oh well, cant get them all.
    
    Walt
                                                              

    
    BTW, the road mentioned in the last reply is a very seldom
    traveled logging road. In fact the week we were there we saw
    one other vehicle and they didnt stop. Maybe it was too far in
    the boonies for them? Just didnt want anyone who hasn't had the 
    pleasure of hunting Maine to get the wrong idea that I "road"
    hunt. Trust me some of these logging roads are so far back in
    the woods even the logging co. forgets about them.
    
    Walt

    Walt,

I gotta laugh, I had the exact same thing happen to me this morning, I'm 
on stand at 5:45, sitting comfortably on a ridge knob, overlooking a 
hardwood flat with mixed laurels and small hemlocks below me... it's a rubline 
and i've got fresh tracks and new rubs from the morning before.  So i have
a pretty good idea thats he's making the rounds between 7:00-8:00..  7:00AM 
here comes this guy from the opposite direction, sees the tracks, finds a 
small hemlock and starts breaking branches and prepares to sit down... 50
yards in front of me...  so i yell down to the guy...  he gets up and follows 
the tracks heading in the direction of where i'm expecting this buck to make 
his appearance.   smashing his way thru mountain laurels on the way...
unbelievable...  you'd think people would have the smarts not to go crashing 
thru the area your looking at...  or am i dreaming???

so i got up and left... slowly poked my way across the ridge stillhunting.
I hate it when I'm pinpointing an area down and some putz comes crashing 
thru... I would'nt mind so much if they were quiet but they just crash along
with no regard for the amount of noise they make.  I'm nowhere near the 
road, easily an hour walk in...  

i guess i've been spoiled in VT hunting posted land. :^(

keep your chin up...  sometime these putzes actually dog deer for you... ;^)

Fra

    I've had my share of the same....
    
    tactic:  When the guy shows up, go over to him. Clue him in on what you
    expect. Tell him how he can backstop you where you can't see, if he
    want to hunt nearby. plot out free fire lanes. Most bumblers haven't a
    clue about what's going to happen and really dig an experienced hunter
    who can set them up a little. I found that they eagerly get into the
    mission plan or leave the area entirely.
    
     

    
    
       this scenario happened to me this year, it happens everywhere 
    unfortunatly, some people just dont have a clue that what they are 
    doing is not only messing up their chances but also affecting everyone 
    else in the imediate area.
      My incident happened the first day of deer season here in NY, at 8am
    i see this long blonde haired person (i thot it was a young lady) well
    i had been on stand since well before daylight. this person is laboring
    in the deep snow as she worked her way up the hill towards me, i take
    my orange hat and wave it and thus person acknowledges that they see me
    setting on stand.
      Anyway this person gets about 50 yrds below me and plops down against 
    a tree in plain view of me??? I thot well maybe she is just resting, 20
    minutes later this person is still there, i thot well maybe someone
    dumped her out and said go to this spot and they would be by to pick
    her back up in a few hours. 
      So as reluctant as i was to move i got up and walked down to this
    person, it was a young kid ~17 yrs old, and not a girl, so i ask the
    kid if he was waiting for someone else in his group, he says no i am 
    deer hunting, i said well you saw me setting there what are you setting
    right in front me for? he said well i wanted to watch the bottom.
      I said well thats why i am away up there, i can see the whole bottom
    and beter than 200 yards in every direction. so this kid looks at me
    and just sorta shrugs his shoulders, up till now i was trying to be 
    diplomatic about informing this person that its not very ethical to
    just walk in in front of someone and plop down.
      Now its looking as tho this person has no thots of moving on, so i 
    asked him to see his permission slip card, his response was "i dont
    have it on me" i said, "well jim told me if i ask and the response is
    i dont have it with me, 95% of the time means they dont have one at all
    so ask them to leave"
      He just looked at me, I said the roads about a mile that direction,
    the last i saw him he was walking in that direction and i never saw him 
    again after that. they area i hunt is posted land, but its owned by a
    big oil company, they allow hunting, all you need to do is stop at the
    main office, see the president of the company (Jim) and he will give
    you a permission slip.
      I have hunted in that area for years, a couple years ago i harvested
    a nice 7 pointer, imediately following the season i picked up a nice
    thank you card, wrote a short thank you note, enclosed a picture of me
    with that buck and i sent it to Jim, last year i stopped at the oil
    company to ask permission, Jims secretary looked at me and said you
    look familiar, your the guy that sent a picture of your deer last year
    arent you? i said yes mam. she said well Jim wants to talk to you.
      Now at first i thot oh-oh maybe he didnt like seeing the picture, his
    secretary led me to his office, he invited me in had me pull up a
    chair, looked at me and said you sent a card last year right? i said
    yes sir, i hope it didnt upset you. he said absolutely not! matter of
    fact it was on display in our cabinet for several months.
      He went on to say, you know i have allowed people to hunt here on my
    land for years, i couldnt even tell you how many people i have given 
    permission, never ever once has ANYONE ever sent me a thank you card, I
    was just floored when i received it.
      I said well sir alot of guys dont appriciate having access to land,
    alot of people figure if isnt posted they can hunt there if they want,
    heck some people even think if its posted its ok to hunt there. I
    cherish my hunting spots, and i spend alot of time in my hunting spots,
    i take care of them and respect the landowners wish's.
     we chatted about this and that and about the deer population around
    that area, he asked some questions, i did my best to answer them, and 
    when he said, well you are probably seeking permission again right. I
    said yes sir if your still allowing hunting. he filled out a card and
    handed it to me, he said you have a card there that gives you
    permission for 5 years, and at the end of those 5 years come back and 
    see me and you will have permission as long as i own property here YOU
    WILL have a place to hunt here.
       I'll tell ya that meant alot to me!, and that land means alot to me
    its an excellent area, and there are over 20,000 acres to hunt on in 
    ny alone, and probably close to 20,000 acres in Pa also. so there is
    alot of land to hunt on.
    
        public land is tough, if you can take time off during the week you
    will see less guys, also as you said, concentrate more on archery, and
    muzzleloader, during shotgun season you can go out when there is snow
    on the ground, walk about and even if you spook deer dont get upset use
    it a learning experience, chances are where they run is their escape
    route, remember this route, follow it, remember it, when muzzleloader
    season starts get a buddy to go with you and set up one guy on the
    escape route and have the other guy still hunt thru, and you may just
    score.
    
                                                Lee
     
    

    
    The pet peeve in Colorado is rapidly becoming--Sneaking up a trail
    being as quiet as you can and have some yahoo on one of those 4-wheel
    off-road things come blasting through clearing out everything within
    1/2 mile.

    fred();

RE:
    
>    The pet peeve in Colorado is rapidly becoming--Sneaking up a trail
>    being as quiet as you can and have some yahoo on one of those 4-wheel
>    off-road things come blasting through clearing out everything within
>    1/2 mile.

You got that right.  They have to either drive over or around the forest
service sign that clearly states no motor vehicles beyond that point and I've 
seen them do both.  Have not tested this YET, but have always wondered how
a transmission case would react to a well placed .270, after the rider has 
departed the machine of course.  I take my toys on my hunting trips, but they 
stay on the open trails only.

    
    re .40

    Well, according to my nephew, those things are legal on Forest Service/
    BLM land.  Don't know about the "wilderness" areas.  Somehow the
    manufacturers got them made legal.  Now there are too many of them
    around to easily get them outlawed.

    The thing that really fries my grits, if true, is the rumored
    helicopter chasing elk from Forest Service land over to the Indian
    reservation.  Don't even _think_ of taking a rifle over on the
    reservation (can you say 7'th Cavelry ;^)).  Again unconfirmed, but you
    can get a hunting license for the reservation for $1500/cow and
    $2000/bull elk.  Comes with guide so chances are pretty good but not
    guaranteed.  Guy I was hunting with say they take 1 or 2 huge 7
    pointers off the reservation each year.

    fred();

Fred:

>    Well, according to my nephew, those things are legal on Forest Service/
>    BLM land.  Don't know about the "wilderness" areas.  Somehow the
>    manufacturers got them made legal.  Now there are too many of them
>    around to easily get them outlawed.

The next time you enter National Forest areas notice the first sign you see.
It will say something to the effect, "Off road travel restricted on all trails
beyond this point, except trails designated by this symbol" and the symbol kind
of looks like a spade in a deck of cards.  All the places I hunt in the forest
have these signs, I know you've seen them too.  There are lots of old trails
that are now closed with a sign that says "No motor vehicles beyond this point".
So once you enter forest area land, your vehicle has to stay on the marked
trails.  More and more of the once open trails are being closed down.  Trails
that were open last year were closed this year.  And what did I see happen?
People drove over the signs to get where they wanted to go, and in one case
it was only 100 yards into the timber.  Your nephew in only partly correct.
They are legal on marked forest service trails only.  BML land is wide open
for now, how long will that last who knows?  I've seen the 4-wheelers drive up 
to, over, or around the trail closed signs many times.  Tearing across open
fields in the forest is also not legal.  99.9% of the time everyone gets away
with it.  If this keeps up, it won't be long till we will be walking to our
hunting spots from the highway.

I like my toys too, like I said, I ride them where they are legal to ride.
I want to keep the trails open too.  I not raggin on you Fred, just raggin about
the guys that will cause future restrictions on all of us.

    I hit the woods on Sat in Ohio with my flintlock in hopes of seeing a
    big buck that was crossing the farm where I hunted.  I was in position
    about 1/2 hour before light in a thick strip of brush that connected
    two large sections of woods.  About dawn the shots started in every
    direction and the deer started pouring through.  
    
    Total for the day?   18 does and 3 button bucks, 7 turkeys, 2 grouse.
    
    I slipped up on two button bucks beded on a flat, but the leaves were
    entirely to dry to try stillhunting much.
    
    I talked with 3 other hunters when driving out that eve, they hadn't
    seen any bucks either.  They had only seen a few doe.
    
    Oh well, maybe next time.
    
    Wess

    Late note:
    Ive been on travel and have had no time to play notes sorry.
    I was out in X9A area just west of mono lake in mono county California.
    I had seen several deer in two days but no buck. On the last dat of the 
    season, I had spent the day at 12,000 feet and was working my way down
    the mountain.  I got wiff of deer in the air and started moving paralel
    across a ridge to a vantage point over looking a running stream.
    We have had no rain so the area was very noisy. I noticed several deer 
    feeding on the side of the ridge about 1/4 mile away, so I stye low and
    moved toward them.  This is wide open country and so It wasnt long
    before a doe I didnt see started snorting, and popping the ground with
    her foot.  The deer I had seen all layed down at once.  I continued
    moving toward them, the doe I had not seen ran off once I gave her the
    ole Imagonakillya look You know the one.  As i moved closer I could see
    that all the deer were does, except one spike buck.  I sat down on the
    edge of the ridge and began to eat my MRE.  I noticed some movement
    down on the flat about 1000 yard away so I broke out the glasses and
    saw a nice 3X2 buck down there in the wide open 20 feet from the road.
    My mide started racing, lets see height trjectory wind hum to far out.
    I moved closer I am now about 450 to 500 yards out and 500 feet up from
    the flat. Time is running out just 20 more mins till the season is
    over. I cant get any closer so I settle down and wait to see if he is
    going to move to me. Five mins left o legal shoot time. Lets see Height
    trajectory wind, if im goin to do it I have to do it now. I am thnking
    that if I shoot a little left and at the knees I should be just on
    target. I breath in a few times control and squeze the trigger. In the
    scope I see a hugh duct cloud. Just missed over the sholder aim lower
    fool! The deer has no idea where the shot came from and runs in a circle
    and stops in almost the same spot again. Aim at the ankles this time,
    control squeze and shoot. The deer drops, I wait but its getting dark
    fast so I have to move. I move down and find the deer, it has a huge
    chunk of bone missing from its back, a few inches behind the sholder.
    Lucky shot! NO REALLY I PLANNED it THAT WAY "right"  I dressed it ad
    took it to the packing house and have been on travel since so I have no
    idea what it tastes like. 3X2 115 LBs dressed
    Joe.