Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

      Before you use a shock collar you need to understand the principle
    behind its use.  You _cannot_ teach anything with a schock collar!
    A shock collar only enforces what the dog already knows and
    understands.  Collars work where nothing else will when used properly.
    They also ruin more dogs then any other method of reinforcement I can 
    think of.  When I was heavy into hunting tests and field trials, most
    of the dog clubs held collar clinics during the year.  My advise would
    be to try and hook up with one.  Try to talk at length with someone who
    knows your dog and is familiar with using a collar.
    
    Good luck
    
    Jeff

    Chris,
    
    Electronic training collars are great tool if used correctly.
    If used incorrectly, can cause serious problems with your dog
    and for you when you need to "fix" any problems caused by the
    misuse of an electronic collar. I would strongly suggest training 
    with someone who has successfully trained with one and shares the
    same training philosophy as you do. (the last part is equally
    important.)
    
    Basically you need to go through an obedience "program" teaching
    the commands, sit, here, and fetch, then after those commands are
    well understood by your dog, incorporate the stimulation from the 
    collar for the commands the dog already understands. After completing
    the "program" your dog will understand that the lead correction
    and the stimulation from the collar are the same thing. A correction.
    Like Jeff said, the dog must understand the commands before using the 
    collar and know how to get out of trouble when corrected.

    In my opinion the best method is the avoidance method, the dog will
    clearly understand after going through the "program" that the stimulation
    from the collar is a correction and understand how to get out of trouble.
    
    A WARNING: Not everyone who has trained with an electronic collar, 
    successful or not, in my humble opinion, should be helping someone or
    teaching someone else how to use one.
    
    Ask around, find out about local retriever training clubs or retriever
    breed clubs. Some have regular training sessions that are open to anyone
    who wants to train. Go to a few AKC hunting tests or a NARHA hunting test
    in your area to meet some retrieve people in your area. From my experience
    they are all very helpful and eager to talk about training and retrievers.
    
    Good luck,
    Michael

    One other thing; Tri-Tronics (one of the makers of electronic training 
    collars) has a new book out that is very good which is about using a 
    collar for retriever training, introduction through advanced retriever 
    training. It is very good.
    
    

    Patti Roberts (who has been a very successful retriever field trial trainer
    on the East Coast for about 20 years) is giving a seminar at
    Timberdoodle Shooting Preserve in Temple, N.H. on July 23.  Her program
    will demonstrate collar basics.  You can get in touch with anyone in
    the Colonial Retriever Field Trial Club for more information.  She's
    EXCELLENT!   

    Thanks for all of your suggestions.  It enforces my own instincts of
    being cautious of using collars.  Especially if you are a novice. 
    Since I live in the Great Northwest ( Oregon ) it would be hard to
    attend seminars in N.H.  I wish there was the participation in the
    notes files out here in the west as there is in the east.  Oh well,
    can't have everything.   Thanks again for your input.  I will let you
    know if and when I decide on doing anything.
    
    
    Chris

    Hi Chris,
    
    
    
    
               One more thing you should be aware of. DO NOT use a shock
    collar anywhere near railroad tracks. Theres some kind of signal they
    send down the tracks that sets the collar off unexpectedly. We where
    duck hunting with our black lab in a swamp that ran near some railroad
    tracks, the dog would be sitting there next to us minding his own
    business when all of a sudden he'd start yelping. At first I thought I
    somehow hit the button on the remote, so I put the remote down next to
    us just to make sure I did'nt hit it again. Well about 10 minutes the
    dog does the same thing. I took the collar off him after that and we
    never used it again. The poor dog did'nt know what was going on. I just
    wanted you to know this as an f.y.i. Good luck.
    
    
    
    
    
                                                                       Mike
    

    Hi Chris,
    I have used a method that works just as well and is not punishing to
    the dog,  I have my britany trained well on a leash so if she acts up 
    I just put a leash on her (one without a hand grip) she thinks I can 
    stop her with it even when im from far away from her, Shes a good dog
    and I have to answer to the wife if I hurt her.  If you plan to use a
    shock collar, I would recomend that you use it on yourself first, then
    you will know what it feels like an will think twice before using it.
    p.s. I work with my dog on a leash every day for a few minutes, we run
    a drill of all commands. we even point and fetch Mr Sqeekyr Squeeky
    (wifes idea) sorry about message modem problems
    Joe Melendez

    
    advice from a former deccie who has trained my dog and me,
    he showed me to grab the dog by the sides of the neck and roll dog
    over onto his back, look em stright in the eye's and give a stern NO.
    
    when he refuses to obey,
    this guy produces field champs. (springers are his specialty)
    
    the problem he mentioned about shock collars, is that the dog is very
    smart, and they know when they are off the collar and they WILL NOT
    obey, if they are the real obstinate type like my dog was.
    
    mike
    

    I've used a collar to train a few dogs with much success, key thing to
    remember, don't ever punish the dog with a training collar, use lots of
    praise after you do use it and don't train a dog with a collar with any
    distraction present. My recent completion of training this past season
    yielded me over 100 birds with this dog and he had just turned one. 
    
    Some dogs learn quicker than others, of course thats because some are
    smarter than others and the collar quickens the training time with a
    smarter dog, they learn fast what the collars all about and what you
    expect of them.
    
    Every dog is collar wise, it depends how you use it, as I mentioned
    above lots of praise for a job well done will warrant never having to
    take the collar out of the box again, I haven't. 
    
    Dennis

>    I've used a collar to train a few dogs with much success, key thing to
>    remember, don't ever punish the dog with a training collar, use lots of
>    praise after you do use it and don't train a dog with a collar with any
>    distraction present. 

    Just a nit, when training and teaching I never praise right after giving a 
    correction, whether with a electronic collar or a simple lead correction.
    I only praise when the dog is doing as I asked. After a correction I
    make sure she does the "right thing" giving as much help as needed to 
    insure success, then praise a lot. It is important that the dog understand
    the difference, I feel praising after a correction is to make the handler
    feel better and only confuses the dog.
    
    Dog; "I got a correction.... and I got praised for what I did...???"
    
    A dog thinks the same way it see's...... in black and white. Either it
    was the right thing or not.
    
    Series of events in training:
    
    Handler: Command
    Dog: Refusal 
        (after fully understanding and has been taught the command)
    Handler: Correction!
        (No praise!)
    
    Handler: Give same command again.
        (Do whatever you need to do for your dog to succeed.)
    Dog: Successfully complying to command.
    Handler: Lots of praise!
    
    Now the next time the dog is given that command he/she can make a
    simple comparison as to the results/reaction to her/his response.
    
    "I refuse, correction...... I comply, praise." I think it makes it
    easier to understand.
    
    My 2 cents,
    Michael    
    
    One more point, it is important to teach without distractions, but 
    very important to train with distractions after teaching to provide
    proofing of each command. Compliance under all circumstances.
    
          

    To each his own!
    
    Good Luck,
    
    Dennis