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Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

Title:The Hunting Notesfile
Notice:Registry #7, For Sale #15, Success #270
Moderator:SALEM::PAPPALARDO
Created:Wed Sep 02 1987
Last Modified:Tue Jun 03 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1561
Total number of notes:17784

1362.0. "New National Forest rules???" by 8293::LESLE (Craig Lesle) Wed Apr 27 1994 14:39

In the Devnver Post today there was an article saying there are some new 
forest service rules for national forest usage, including no shooting
(seems they have problems enforcing rules and need something more to stop
"shooting out of car windows" - ??) and REQUIRING campers to use heavy 
'bear-proof' boxes for food hoisted to 10' to inhibit bear encounters.

First thought I read it wrong and perhaps they were for national parks, but 
re-read and it specifically mentions national forest. First I've heard of 
such rules. Has anyone else heard about this? Is this real? 

I would imagine lots of impact with these, ie: hunting status?

How are new rules for national forests brought about, via the senate and 
congress votes? 

Thanks for any info.
Craig
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1362.1Sporting Use under attack?17576::MACGREGORCody's Dad and Dukes BuddyThu Apr 28 1994 16:353
    Maybe this is an attack from anti's to take away Sporting Use from
    firearms owners and a step in the direction of outlawing firearms.
    						Bret
1362.234838::ROGERShard on the wind againThu Apr 28 1994 17:536
    This needs a check, but the rule might read (as does our state land
    rule) that firearms discharge outside of hunting season and without a
    valid hunting license is prohibited.
    
    So hunting is ok.  but shooting is not.  Still not too cool.
    
1362.38293::LESLECraig LesleThu Apr 28 1994 18:2912
Could be what was meant, but not much detail 
on the specifics in the article.

Am planning to give a the f/s a call when 
I get the chance. Will relay what I learn.

Has anyone else seen any word of it at all in 
their paper?

Our local paper did carry anything on it.

Craig
1362.4Some changes are happening. More info coming.8293::LESLECraig LesleFri Apr 29 1994 13:408
    Talked with a Linda Fox at the Pikes Peak ranger district. Sounds like
    some changes are under way. I will be going down to their office at
    lunch today to discuss these issues and find out what stage these
    changes are in. She mentioned something about a 'commentary' period and
    she was going to round up all the related documents for me.
    
    Will update as I get more info.
    Craig
1362.5Ok, here is some info.8293::LESLECraig LesleFri Apr 29 1994 20:03204
Well, it seems the Denver Post may have gummed up the story and added to
the confusion that has already been generated with the new proposed US
National Forest Service rules.

A visit to the regional office and reading through the proposed changes
helped clear up my questions.

Due to the overwhelming confusion over the new rules, they have extended
the comment period through May 18th. If you want to make comments, they
must be in writing and sent to;

Jack Thomas, Chief
Forest Service, USDA
PO Box 96090
Washington, DC 20090-6090

First off, I saw no complete ban/restrictions in regards to
shooting/hunting in NF. If read too quickly, it might be mistakenly
assumed to be, but the actual text of the rules does not support that. I
am personally concerned with the wording on a few changes such as the
word possession of a firearm - you'll need to decide for yourself on that
and the others and whether you want to send in a comment or not to the
'chief'. 

Also I found nothing about Bear-proof boxes required for campers in the
text either. Not sure where the Denver Post came up with that...

I have copied their brief synopsis of the rule changes presented in a
question and answer format. If you want all the gory details, you should
visit your local USNFS office and read them all for yourself. Copies of
the draft regulations can also be found at most public libraries in the
Feb 16th issue of the Federal Register.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
o Why is the FS trying to restrict public behavior in the proposed rule
  at 36 CFR 261.4(b)?

   The current regulations state that the following are prohibited;

        "addressing any offensive, derisive, or annoying communication to
        any other person who is lawfully present when such communication
        has a direct tendency to cause acts of violence by the person to
        whom, individually, the remark is addressed; make statements or
        other actions directed toward inciting or producing imminent
        lawless action and likely to incite or produce such action."
        
    The proposed revision state that the following are prohibited;

        "using language, an utterance, or gesture, or engaging in a
        display or act that is 1) obscene, 2) physically threatening or
        menacing, or 3) done in a manner that is likely to inflict injury
        or incite an immediate breach of the peace; and with intent to
        cause public alarm, nuisance, jeopardy or violence, or knowingly
        or recklessly creating a risk thereof."
        

o Would grazing permittees be subject to the change proposed for 261.7 (a)
  - Livestock?

     No. The current regulation state that the following are prohibited;

        "placing or allowing unauthorized livestock to enter or be in the
        National Forest System or other lands under Forest Service
        control."
        
     The proposed regulation state that the following are prohibited;
   
        "unauthorized livestock within the National Forest System or on
        any other lands under Forest Service administrative control."
        
     As in the current regulation, the prohibition would only apply to
     the unauthorized livestock. Unauthorized livestock as defined in the
     definitions section are only livestock not associated with a grazing
     permit i.e. this change would not apply to livestock authorized by a
     grazing permit.
   
o Would the change proposed to 261.8 - Fish and Wildlife - prohibit
  hunting on National Forest?

    No. This provision would allow Forest Service officials to assist in
    enforcing only what is federal or state law prohibits. Hunting, "in
    violation of State or Federal law", is already included in current
    regulation and remains unchanged. 
  
o What is meant by the prohibition on "disturbing" natural features?
  Would this prohibit hiking and the usual recreational activities
  occurring on the National Forest?

    The word "disturb" appears in the current regulation, in the
    definition of the term "damaging". "Disturb" was added to the
    proposed rule at 36 CFR 261.9 (a)-(c) to provide a tie to the term
    "damaging" in those provisions.  Commenters have suggested that
    "disturb" is too broad in both the definition and the proposed rules
    at 36 CFR 261.9 (a)-(c).
    
    The agency's intent is not to prohibit normal recreational activities
    which take place during intermittent occupancy of the National Forest
    System. The Forest Service wants to protect resources while allowing
    reasonable recreational activities to continue. The Forest Service
    will review this closely and consider public comment in the
    preparation of the final rule.
    
o Current regulation prohibits removal of vertebrate fossils - Why would
  the Forest Service prohibit the collection of all fossils in the
  proposed rule at 36 CFR 261.9 (c)?

    Deletion of the word "vertebrate" was unintentional when the proposed
    rule was drafted. The Forest Service did not intend to make the
    excavation or removal of invertebrate fossils (except when done for
    commercial purposes without a valid permit) a violation. The Forest
    Service will address this issue in the preparation of the final rule.
    
o Will the use of metal detectors be prohibited on the National Forest
  System?

    No. There is no current or proposed prohibition that would limit the
    use of metal detectors, unless that activity would conflict with the
    already established prohibitions relation to archaeology, historic, or
    prehistoric resources.
    
o What about the use and possession of firearms on the National Forests?

    Currently, the use and possession of firearms are regulated in two
    areas of the CFRs: restriction on firearms throughout the National
    Forest System (NFS), and restrictions when prohibited by an order on
    a site-specific basis. Both are intended to insure public safety and
    resource protection.

  36 CFR 261.10 (d) is applicable throughout the NFS and would relax
  current prohibitions. It would change the prohibition of shooting from
  or across a road to a prohibition of shooting from a vehicle; as for
  shooting game from a campsite, the proposed rule would not change from
  the current regulation that already prohibits discharging firearms
  within 150 yards of a campsite.
      
  36 CFR 261.58 (m) would apply when the Chief, Regional Forester, or
  Forest Supervisor would issue an order concerning the area under his or
  her jurisdiction. Experience has shown that orders are only issued in
  special circumstances when needed to protect resources or the public.
  For example, a current regulation allows for the issuance of an order
  to prohibit "hunting or fishing" (36 CFR 261.58 (v)), and has existed
  for over 20 years. It is, however, rarely implemented. The current
  regulation at 261.58 (m) provides that when provided by an order, the
  discharge of a firearm can be prohibited. The proposed regulation would
  add the word "possessing". Such a prohibition is consistent with state
  laws that prohibit possession of firearms in certain circumstances such
  as when needed to protect wildlife in specially designated wildlife
  management units and to protect the public in high-use situations.
  
o Why is the Forest Service clamping down on noise and use of electronic
  devices? (36 CFR 261.10 (h) and (i)).

    No change is proposed to the current regulations. These provisions
    appear in the proposed revision because they were re-published for
    clarity (as a result of the changes proposed to that section). The
    current rules prohibit noise that unreasonable disturbs others.
    Historically, enforcement of this provision has been limited to
    situations where Forest officers have received complaints of
    unreasonable noise from others who were affected by it, such as late
    night loud music in campgrounds.
    
o Why is the Forest Service proposing to require the public to use
  seatbelts on any Forest development road or trail?

    The Forest Service is concerned with public safety for those driving
    on forest roads. As with all the proposed provisions, the Forest
    Service is carefully considering all comments on this provision and
    will decide whether to implement a rule such as the one proposed or to
    adopt individual State law.
    
o Why is the Forest Service prohibiting possession of alcoholic beverages
  and the possession of glass containers?

    Possession of alcoholic beverages and the possession of glass
    containers would be prohibited only when specifically provided for by
    an order on a site-specific basis.
    A current regulation already allows for orders to prohibit alcoholic
    beverages as defined by State law. The proposed new provision would
    allow for an order to prohibit alcoholic beverages as defined in the
    proposed rule (to include beer and wine regardless of whether State
    law considers the "alcoholic beverages").
    
    The provision allowing for orders prohibiting possession of glass
    containers is a new proposal. The intent is that orders could be
    issued in situations where broken glass would cause safety hazards
    for the recreating public (such as swimming areas).
    
o In what situations would the Forest Service prohibit the reservation of
  campsites?
  
    Proposed 36 CFR 261.14 (r) would prohibit the "staking-out" or
    "saving" sites by third parties in developed recreation sites.
    Proposed 36 CFR 261.58 (dd) would prohibit such activity outside
    developed recreation sites when provided by an order. These
    provisions are designed to preclude the denial of use of sites to
    other forest users who are already at a site or location and are
    ready to camp. Unless sites are port of the advanced reservation
    system, they are intended to be available on a first-come,
    first-served basis.
    
4/19/94


1362.6another first step?17576::MACGREGORCody's Dad and Dukes BuddyMon May 09 1994 16:364
    In the Firearms Notesfile there is a reply in note 6036.77 about
    proposed hunting regulations. Take a look, it ain't going to be pretty.
    It will probably be called another "first step".
    						Bret