Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

   Good topic.  I'm normally a read-only noter in here, and I'm a little
hesitant to change that on a topic like this (given that there are other noters
in this file who can undoubtedly provide better answers), but I wanted
to respond to your questions.  And to say thanks, given that you're a 
non-hunter, for trying to understand the "hunter's" viewpoint (although I 
imagine you'll get many different "hunter's" viewpoints).  I speak only for 
myself in this reply.

>    On a scale ranging from +5 (exhilarating fun), to zero (complete
>   indifference), to -5 (profound remorse), how do hunters regard the
>   moment when they hit the target and the animal goes down?
    
	I don't think you can settle on one number - for me, it's all of the 
above.  I'm happy when all of the preseason scouting, trips to the shooting
range, and hard work I've put in result in success.  However, there's 
certainly an element of remorse, too, that an animal that I respect and
admire has given up it's life at my hands.  I'm probably a +3 and a -2 at the 
same time (which doesn't equal a +1 in this case - the feelings don't cancel
each other out, but instead they're both there at the same time).

>   Do hunters manage to distance themselves emotionally from the death?
>   How?

	I don't think so - if they did, then they wouldn't care if the animal
suffered before dying, just as long as it died.  Look through the notes in here 
and see how many times a quick, clean kill is mentioned/strived for.  If 
hunters distanced themelves emotionally from the death, I don't think you'd
see that. 

>   In what way do hunters identify with the game they kill?

	I started to answer this, but my answer didn't really capture what I
wanted to say. I'll have to think about this some more and answer later.

>   Can hunters afford feelings of sadness and loss when they succeed?

	Sure - see my answer to your first question.
    
>    Do recreational hunters have a sense of duty?  To whom/what?

	Absolutely.  Hunters have a duty to the game they hunt to strive for
a quick, clean, painless kill.  They have a responsibility to nature to leave
the woods as clean as they found it.  They have a responsibility to landowners 
to abide by the landowners rules.  They have a responsibility to other hunters 
to be safe, and to always identify their target and what's beyond before 
pulling the trigger.  There are others, but I think you get my point.

>>                       <<< Note 1334.0 by TLE::SAVAGE >>>
>>                          -< Feelings and attitudes >-

These are good questions, and ones that I suspect everyone will answer
differently.  I don't particularly care for your scale, though, as
it's hard (at least for me) to quantify emotions.
    
>>    On a scale ranging from +5 (exhilarating fun), to zero (complete
>>    indifference), to -5 (profound remorse), how do hunters regard the
>>    moment when they hit the target and the animal goes down?

For me, there's always the least little bit of sorrow and regret when
I kill an animal.  I like to think that it's a emotion born out of
respect for my quarry, but perhaps there's something else working that
I can't quite put my finger on.  There is also a sense of pride and
accomplishment, and in some cases elation.  The degree of this depends on
the game taken, and the difficulty with which it was taken.

>>    Do hunters manage to distance themselves emotionally from the death?
>>    How?

I can't do this in a complete sense.  As I stated above, there is always
some sorrow and regret.  Long ago, I decided that I would not kill any
animal unless I had a specific reason for doing so.  The reason may
be that I plan to eat the animal (most often the case), or that I
am helping to control a pest population.  There may be other reasons
that I can't think of for now.  For me, though, just killing something
for the sake of killing it isn't a justifiable reason, and I don't
do it.  Perhaps it's this pragmatic approach that allows me to distance
myself from the emotions that come with the act of taking a life.

>>    In what way do hunters identify with the game they kill?

Not sure I understand this.  So, I'll pass.

>>    Can hunters afford feelings of sadness and loss when they succeed?

Yes.  See previous replies.
    
>>    Do recreational hunters have a sense of duty?  To whom/what?

I certainly do.  I understand that hunting is a very effective means
of wildlife population control, and that effectively managed sports
hunting is beneficial to wildlife populations.  I also know that the
money I spend to enjoy my sport contributes to the local economy.  If
I felt that the hunting that I do was detrimental to the local wildlife
population, or caused damage to the environment, I wouldn't do it.
            
Jerry

>  >>    In what way do hunters identify with the game they kill?

>  Not sure I understand this.  
    
    By this I was thinking some sort of spritual kinship or one-ness. 
    A most farfetched example would be "brother bear" or "sister doe". 
    Native American hunters were said to have thanked the animal's spirit
    for the gift of meat to sustain human life.

>>    On a scale ranging from +5 (exhilarating fun), to zero (complete
>>    indifference), to -5 (profound remorse), how do hunters regard the
>>    moment when they hit the target and the animal goes down?
    
It's not that easy.  I won't put a number on it. It's definitely not
indifference.  I feel remorse for the life that I've just taken, but I'm 
also thrilled at my accomplishment, especially with a bow kill.

>>    Do hunters manage to distance themselves emotionally from the death?
>>    How?                

That's easy.  I, like most humans, am a meat eater.  A deer, like a cow, 
is meat - in the form of a beautiful animal. I think God put deer, and
cows, here for us to eat.  Yes, I feel some degree of remorse, but I feel 
more remorse for the domesticated animals that were kept alive in pens 
until some rancher decided there number was up. The deer I harvest enjoyed 
a natural existence, all the way from birth to my freezer. 


>>    In what way do hunters identify with the game they kill?

We're both living creatures with different purposes.  

>>    Can hunters afford feelings of sadness and loss when they succeed?

    Not sure what you mean here.  See above.
    
>>    Do recreational hunters have a sense of duty?  To whom/what?

To our children, to pass on our hunting and fishing heritage, in hopes that
they may get the same level of enjoyment and fulfillment that we do.

To our environment, to help control the wildlife populations which no
longer maintain themselves do to the loss of natural predators other than man.

Neal, Do you eat meat?  If so, please substitute hunter with meat eater and
answer your questions.  
    
    Thanks, 
    
    -donmac

    
    
      Well I have about the same outlook on this as the last several
    replies, I dont agree with the number system at all.
    
      >>how do hunters regard the moment when they hit the target or the
    animal goes down?
    
       Myself there is a feeling of accomplishment that I outsmarted such a 
    magnificent animal, but there is a feeling of remorse that I took a
    life of a creature that was just acting natural in its environment. but
    I will say that the benifits greatly outway the anti's claims about
    hunting, I always ask when approached by an anti hunter on
    question..... have you ever seen with your own eyes a deer yard where
    the deer are starving to death? no ? well I have and man you talk about 
    a remorsefull feeling? It made me sick to see it and I am VERY strong
    stomached, ( got that from being a paramedic in pittsburgh pa for 2 yrs)
    
      
      Do hunters manage to distance themselves emotionally from death? how?
    
    I think that for the most part hunters do distance themselves from the 
    emotions of death, the emotions of death of a deer,turkey,rabbit, or
    what ever you are hunting is far different than that from the death of
    a loved one or your hunting dog or companion.
    
      In what way do hunters identify with the game they kill;
    
    I have the utmost respect for the game I persue, the whitetail deer is 
    one of the smartest game animals that we have the chance to outsmart,
    they have super hearing, keen smell, and excellent ability to see
    movement, these are all far more superior than the senses we are graced
    with. I try to learn all I can about my quarry, and although I have
    harvested many deer and have thousands of hours under my belt being in
    the woods hunting and scouting I still leran things every time I go
    out. Never underestimate your quarry because when you do they will make
    you feel like a fool. 
    
     Can hunters affors feelings of sadness and loss when they succeed?
    
      I think that most do feel some sort of sadness when they put down an
    animal. also see above.
    
      do recreational hunters have a sense of duty? to whom/what?
    
     I think that hunting has been proven to be the best managable way to
    control wildlife populations,when you keep in mind that whitetail deer
    populations in most area will double on a yearly basis if no means of
    control are in place, so take PA for example, 
      Start of summer 1993 est. herd 1,000,000 
       "     "  "     1994 "     "   2,000,000
       "     "  "     1995 "     "   4,000,000
       "     "  "     1996 "     "   8,000,000
    so in light of that if there was no deer hunting for 5 years there
    would be 16 million yes million deer in Pa. do you have any idea how
    dangerous it would be to even drive on the roads? can you imagine what
    kind of crop damage there would be? can you imagine what your auto ins.
    would be like? so there is a great need for hunting to control the pop.
    of deer and other wildlife. and also when you have a great
    concentration of animals in an area you also greatly increase the
    chances of disease that can spread throughout the herd.
    
      As far as myself goes like I said I do have a very high repect for
    the whitetail deer, I would classifly myself as a good hunter, I take
    alot of pride in my hunting skills and ethics, I work hard for my deer,
    I dont even know how many hours I spend each year preparing for hunting
    season, but I wont hunt during bow season until I am shooting
    consistantly and I only take the highest percentage shots for the
    quickest most humane kill that I can achieve, I feel that we all as
    hunters owe that to ourselves, fellow hunters and most of all the game
    that we persue!
    
                                                                  Lee
    

    Re: .4 by BALMY::MACINTYRE:
    
 >Neal, Do you eat meat?  If so, please substitute hunter with meat eater and
 >answer your questions.  
    
    I suppose fair is fair. At the suggestion of Don MacIntyre, I'm
    slightly modifying the questions and answering them as someone who eats
    meat - steak, pork chops, even venison a long time back.  Remember, as
    with the hunters who have answered, I speak only for myself, not for
    anyone else whose diet includes meat.

    
    On a scale ranging from +5 (exhilarating fun), to zero (complete
    indifference), to -5 (profound remorse), how does a meat-eater regard the
    moment when the animal he eats is slaughtered?
    
	Zero. 

    Do meat-eaters manage to distance themselves emotionally from the death?
    How?

	Yes.  About the 'how': it is important to note that a pork chop
	or steak looks nothing like the animal from which it came.  
   
    In what way do meat-eaters identify with the meat they eat?

	Intellectually, as part of the great cycle of living and dying.
	Day to day, I barely give it any thought.  Could I eat duck
	if I knew it was my daughter's pet duck?  Hypothetical, because
	the only pets we have are cats, but I doubt that I could.
	However, I ate venison in college without any qualms although I
	saw the Walt Disney movie "Bambi" as a child.  

    Can meat-eaters afford feelings of sadness and loss when they eat?

	Yes, but not being a witness at the slaughter house when the
	animal is killed means that I don't have to confront such feelings.

	I am revulsed by some of the revelations of animal treatment in
	TV news shows. I've thought about giving up veal, we still have
	some sitting in the freezer.  Hmmm... 
    
    Do meat-eaters have a sense of duty?  To whom/what?

	To put food on the table that is nutritious and tastes good.
	
    	Yes, I'm aware of the vegetarians' food pyramid argument.
	So far, I haven't 'answered the call'.  My second son's girl
	friend converted him to a vegetarian for a while. He now has
	another girl friend and he's back to eating meat.
	
    	FWIW: we concentrate on the 'heart smart' stuff - chicken,
	turkey, and fish, less of the beef and pork.  As to fast food
	(hamburgers), I avoid it.   

            
    I hope I haven't gone to far in granting Don's request. I don't want
    this to be an excuse to rathole. Please resume the discussion about
    hunting. 

    Keep up the good work you guys!

    Thanks Neal.  That helps me understand where your coming from. A
    couple of months ago I started to follow your discussion in the New
    Hampshire notesfile, but quickly gave up (was way too time consuming
    trying to read all those replies).  
    
    -donmac
    
    ps: btw, my family did give up veal after that 60 mins report

    	Mr. Savage,
      I wasn't going to reply to this but after many thoughts I will give
    it a shot (no pun intended, well maybe).
    
    	Q. #! I, like the most others, cannot relate a specific number to a
    rating system regarding emotions. My emotions vary from one extreme to
    the other. I am happy and sad at the same time. I will say that there
    have been far too many times when I have come up on the losing end so
    to speak when I have gone hunting, even if I were to be succesful every
    time out for the rest of my life it would not make me more succesful
    than unsuccesful. But I don't get upset either when I do lose, it just
    makes me want to respect the animal(s) even more.
    
    	Q #2  Death is a touchy subject, for either man or beast. I don't
    like to see death in any form, but when I fill my tag (which has been
    quite a while) I not only feel remorse but I also fell as though I have
    also helped. I have also walked through deer yards during severe
    winters and have seen starved to death deer. It is not a pretty sight,
    I feel much worse when I see that then when I have harvested a deer. At
    least I feel as though as my way was quick and painless compared to
    starvation. I also feel that if I harvest a deer that one or more may
    live to see another year. 
    
    	Q. #3 I have to agree with a previous reply, we are both (man and
    creatures) trying to survive, but in different ways. I have the utmost
    respect for them. They seem to be working harder under harsher
    conditions to survive, and when I go hunting I also realize that I have
    enteret their house, it is theirs and not mine and I treat the woods
    better than I treat my own house.
    
    	Q. #4 See my answer to Question #1.
    
    	Q. #5 I also have to agree with a couple of previous replies. First
    being that I want to pass this great tradition on to my stepson and
    son. I also want tp point out to them that a bad day hunting is better
    than the best day at work. To me (IMHO) I LOVE the outdoors and being
    able to enjoy it. I also like to think of myself as helping out with
    conservation. And I don't take any game that I won't eat. Just killing
    some thing for the sake of killing it is wrong (to me). I don't
    consider myself a sport hunter. I more consider myself a hunter who is
    not only helping to feed my family but also helping the wildife that I
    hunt also.
    
    	Sorry for being so long winded.
    						Bret