Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    
    Lance
    
    00-Buck is not really meant for Deer, a slug yes.
    
    Appears that the deer are a bit smarter that given credit for being,
    they will lay down actually stop the bleeding and then get up and go. 
    However they will, depending on the severity of the wound start
    bleeding again, but by that time could be a number of yards away, this
    is where dedication comes in, and plenty of daylight.
    
    The last time I used 00-Buck on a Deer, it was indeed my last also. 
    Enough said.
    
    
    Leonard
    

    I don't like buck shot.  It's effective range is real limited, and then
    only if it is fired out of the right choke.  Most guns won't pattern it
    worth a squat out past 40 yds.  The only use I can see for it if you
    are in real thick brush where the shots are going to be 30 yds or less.
    I'd much rather use a slug in a IC choked barrel.  Figure out which 
    brand name works best in your gun and then go out with the confidence
    that you will hit what your aiming at.
    
    Jeff

    Lance,
    
    	I have used buckshot in the past but have preferred to use 000
        in real thick areas.  Depending on the cover, I usually throw
        a slug in the chamber with either a second slug behind it or
    	000.  I have found that the buckshot is effective as a follow
    	up shot to the slug.. Last year the 8 pointer I shot was hit 
    	with the slug (heart/lung), while the buckshot proceeded to
        break his foreleg preventing any long runs.
    
    						

    My opinion on buckshot? Absolutely hate it and everything about it. 
    In a 12ga, there is what, 9 pellets? Where are they going? At 30yds,
    you'd probably hit a deer with 3-4? Where are they gonna hit the deer?
    Biggest waste of lead and powder I've ever seen. Because of what
    happened to Lance, this just backs it up. It sucks to have this happen. 
    I've never used it but I've helped track deer hit with it and most of
    the time they aren't recovered. They should be banned. If you don't 
    have a shot with a slug, don't shoot. Period. If you can't drop him
    with a slug, what's buckshit gonna do? Just my extremely humble
    opinion. Now I feel better.
    
    				Butch

      
    
     Thanks for the opinions guys.  I guess I've learned a valuable lesson.
     The are I was hunting is for the most part, extremely thick. That's
     really why I chose to use the 00buck as the 1st bullet in the chamber.
     
     I wish I would have had time to remove it and use a slug instead, but 
     he would have heard me for sure. I feel so bad about what happened. 
     I've hunted the same area everyday since, hoping to either find him
     dead, or wounded still roaming the woods. 
    
     I appreciate all your comments. You can count on me giving them the
     big heave ho in the trash where they belong.  Breneke sp? slugs from
     here on in.
    
     Again, thanks
    
     Lance
    

    
    
      I totally agree with the last note! there is about 1 good use for 00
    buckshot and it isnt in the hunting environment! and another thing
    about buckshot is it doesnt really deform at all and when some of those
    animals will die a slow painfull death do to gangreen and from a pellet
    hitting the stomach region.
    
       When I was teaching hunters education we used to put up a deer sized
    cutout and shoot at it with 00 buckshot from 30 yards, and out of the
    10 or 15 shots there were very few pellets that would even come close
    to being imediatly leathal!
    
      IMHO buckshot should be outlawed in the hunting environment!
    
                                                               Lee
    

                        <<< Note 1320.5 by 2286::BENT >>>
                         -< Thanks for the opinions. >-

      
    
>     I appreciate all your comments. You can count on me giving them the
>     big heave ho in the trash where they belong.  Breneke sp? slugs from
>     here on in.
    
     Again, thanks
    
     Lance
 

	Lance,

		Invest some $ and time and try out different types
	of slugs from 4 - 5 manufacturers. Breneke's may not be the
	way to go. Various shotguns/barrels perform differently
	for specific types of slugs. Find the one's yours performs
	the best with on paper prior to taking the chance of missing
	a 10 pointer.

	May the buck be with you,

	Red in Georgia   

Absolutely go out a try a few different brands... don't just go on hear-say,
get out and shoot the gun a little.  Invest some time, and then you can make 
a confident informed decision on what shoots well in YOUR gun.

Sorry to hear you lost it...

Fra

    
    
    
      Thanks Fra, I'm still pretty upset about losing a nice deer like
     that one.  FYI, I have shot several types of slugs out of my gun.
     I have an older Reminington 11-48 (bird gun). So with the longer
     non-rifled barrell, the Breneke's seemed to shoot best.  I can
     hit a Milk carton consistently at 100 yrds with it now.
    
     I guess I should have thrown them 00 bucks out alot sooner.
    
     Lance
    

    The same thing happened to my brother last year, a buck jumps out of a
    thicket as were eating lunch and my bother pops him one with 00 buck.
    There is snow on the gound and the tracking was easy. Untill we found
    where he laid down (Big pool of blood) then got up and the bleeding had
    stopped. We lost a nice buck because of that crap. 
    
    Never use it!!!!!
    
    Tim
    

More of an informational note than anything else...  I know a few guys back
home that will buy anything on the words of other people, that these "super
duper extra power hercules turbo slugs" are the best for deer...  

I know how your feeling, I've lost a few myself...  nothing i'm too proud of.

Just as an FYI for everyone out there...  I was hunting in VT last year during
the second weekend of Rifle.  At 1:00 PM, I heard a shot just above me up the
hill in the hardwoods.  There was about 4" of relatively new snow on the ground,
making for pretty easy tracking.  at the shot I was just getting ready to head out
of the woods, to meet up with the crew for lunch and a drive.  I had no watch and 
thought it was only about 11:00, needless to say I was shocked to see that it was
1:00 when I got back to camp.

Anyways, 3 deer came crashing down the hill past me... all does.  I waited about 20
minutes more before heading down the hill.  After lunch, I went back up the hill
and hunted the same spot.  I jumped a deer just as I reached my stand.  I never 
thought much of it at the time.  saw a few more deer in the afternoon.  Which 
prompted me to go back the next morning.  At 10:00 AM I hear a shot just down the 
backside  of the hill from me.  It was close, and I was leaving anyways, so I decided
to head over the hill for a look.  As I packed my things, i looked behind the tree
and saw a bed with blood in it...  You can imagine what i'm thinking now...

So I backtracked the deer up the hill from where I heard the shot the day before.
Not a drop of blood to be seen, nor where there any human tracks till I found where 
the deer had originally been shot at... no blood, the guy must have figured he missed.
and never tracked it.  So I went back down to my stand where I jumped the deer the 
day before and found the bed with the blood, and picked up the track.  Not a drop 
until I reached another bed, then another and another.  Each bed was getting more 
torn up as I progressed, and more frequent. till I eventually reached the gut pile.
and saw the guy who was dragging it out.  I stopped to talk to him, nice spikehorn.
He claimed to have shot it just 1/2 an hour earlier. but the deer only had 1 hole in
it...  Gut shot.  The guy says it dropped in it's tracks... I snickered and said "Ya, 
I bet it did."  Got stiff pretty quick too...

Point of the story, don't give up on a track too soon, a miss could very easily be a 
hit.  If the guy who originally shot the deer the day before had taken the time to 
track this deer, he would have tagged a nice 130# spike.  Hell the tracking was easy 
in the snow.  It's very evident to me, the guy who tagged the deer, didn't shoot it.
but had wandered upon it in the snow from another direction, fired his gun, tagged it
and dressed it out.  I'm not condeming the guy, it was better than letting it go to 
waste.  Normally I would have told him off, for tagging someone else's deer, but it 
was clear that the original shooter had no intention of ever tracking it.

FWIW, Fra

    What about smaller buck shot, like #1 there are more pellets does it
    patten any better than 00.  My father who has long since gone to the
    great deer hunt in the sky, swore by it, said that 0 and 00 just flew
    in all directions and hit very little.  Way back when he was hunting
    slugs were not as advanced as today, he used to call it BALL shot,
    apparently it was just a round ball and not a rifled slug.  He hunted
    the thick swamps on the South Shore (Mass.)  I have test fired 0 and 00
    in the past and worried about using it, I figured there was a better
    chance of hitting another hunter than the deer.  
    
    Paul

    
    
     Again, I appreciate all of your comments, opinions and suggestions.
    Fra, my case was a little different then the story you shared with us.
    
    From where I actually shot the dear, I didn't find blood until approx.
    50 yrds. That was apparently where the deer 1st decided to stop and
    see what the hell that noise and pain was from. There was a small
    puddle of blood where he stood, then just drops every 8 yrds or so.
    After appox. another 100 yrds. the blood got heavier and heavier.
    I could easily follow it thru the thickest mountain laurel. I found
    one more spot where he obviously stood for a min. to listen, because
    of the heavy amount of blood here. Then, he apparently stopped before 
    entering another Laurel bush, turned to the right (one drop of blood)
    went around the Laurel bush (5 or 6 drops) then bolted down hill
    into the worst Mountain Laurel that anyone has ever imagined walking
    throuh. On hands and knees for hours going in the same direction
    he seemed to be heading (not one drop more of blood). After ruffly
    300 yrds. more thru this maze and jungle of laurel (but still in the
    same direction) I founf where he bedded down. There was blood on both
    ends of his bed. (front and back), but not much qty. From there is the
    end of the story. There was never another drop of blood found.
    
    I've also been back to that general vicinity everyday since the
    shooting. I've yet to find any more clues to his whereabouts or
    condition.
    
    Lance
    

Lance,

I'm not pointing any fingers, so please don't take it as such... It wasn't meant for
anyone in particular...  and I only put it in cause it was on my mind this weekend
as I sat in the same spot as last year when it happened...  It was just as a FWIW 
cause you never know...  a person could shoot, think he missed, when in actuality
it could be a plugged entry/exit wound...  I was on a roll, and it was on my mind 
so I entered it, in this string of replys.

Regards, Fra

    
    
      No need to clarify anything Fra.  It wasn't taking any different then
    you had intended. I was merely taking my story further then I had in
    my original mail, giving you more detail on the actual happenings.
    
    Sorry if my mail sounded defensive, it was not intended to what so
    ever. I've appreciated ALL the replies I've had to this topic.
    
    Regards,
    Lance
    

    While a novice hunter during my second season of deer hunting I
    followed some advice of senior hunters while hunting in Sandisfield,
    Western Mass.  They told me "if in thick cover make your first shot
    buck, followed by slug, buck, etc. Having a friend's old goose gun, 
    with a full choke barrel, also made more sense to use magnum loaded
    00 buck than slugs.  A preseason of trap, and ducks also gave me some
    confidence, but not enough to invest in an Ithaca Deerslayer and slug
    barrel.  
    As opening day snow finally cleared in the late a.m. I heard a series
    of shots from clearly my right flank while posting.  Seeing a galloping
    bounding coming toward me and starting to quarter as he saw me and and
    I saw his rack, swung and led him 3 to 4 feet and squeezed, expecting 
    to maybe jack in the slug I was surprised to see him fall as if he hit
    a brick wall.  Counting off the 35 paces I was amazed to see the
    thickness of his neck and the size of the eight point rack.  He dressed
    out a #157 and I was concerned about the buckshot damage.  My first
    deer's hide had five holes in the heart lung area and one close to the
    spine.  Only the ribs seemed bloodshoot.  
    Bottomline today I use a slug first, followed by 00 buck, in my slug
    barrel.                                                  
     

    another .02 worth
    
    	I too would have to vote NO to buck shot, however I'm not so
    thrilled about using a slug either. Since an incident which happened to
    me several years ago I decided to hang up my shotgun for deer hunting
    in thickets of N.E.(more particular - hunting in N.H.), and now use
    either my 30-30 where allowed or I'll use my muzzleloader in "shotgun
    only" areas. I much prefer my muzzleloader as the weapon of choice, it
    gives it that extra thrill - you only have ONE shot & you'd better make
    it good! What a challenge!
    
    	What happen to me - while hunting in so NH one year by myself, I
    was walking along a old cart path, looking to my left I notice a nice
    little revine with a little ridge to its side & thought this'd be a
    good spot to stand for while see what happens. About an 1/2 hour latter
    I'm glassing the area & low & behold 3 doe wander by from my right
    heading left crossing right in front of me. When they got just past me I 
    heard them snort & continued walking, they couldn't have been more than 
    35 - 40 feet (that's right FEET not yards. Most hunters like fishermen 
    have measurement problems but that's another issue I'd like to
    discuss). I know it was feet because I latter paced it off. Enough of
    that, on with the story.
  	I believe it was "bucks only" so the ladies were safe. Rather than
    go down to where they just passed & check it for a game trail or
    whatever I decided to hold up for a while. As they say during the rut
    you see a couple of doe wait & there should be a buck following close
    behind. Well they were right. Within 15 minutes I hear this clatter &
    when I turned my head to see what's the matter, there HE was. He's
    standing there facing me no more than 40 FEET away just on the edge of
    some thickets & saplings, DAMN he's on the wrong side, he's on my right
    side! My shotgun is laying across my chest with the barrel pointing
    left. If I move this gun 1 inch he'll bolt. We're starring at each
    other, eye to eye contact. I'm trying like hell to stand still but my
    heart's pounding right out of my jacket, I can't imagine my veins being
    able to withstand the amount presure coming from my blood rushing
    through my body, I can't breathe I'm starting to pant, my heart is
    racing a zillion mph. OH MY GOD! 1, 2, 3, 4...........8 POINTS! He's
    trying to figure what the hell is that? What was a matter of seconds
    felt like hours. He turns his head away, then looks back & stares some
    more. I don't move. He then turns & walks back towards the game trail
    the does just came by on & starts down the little hill behind some
    trees. I immediately draw up my shotgun & put a bead on him & start to
    follow him as he walks in front of me. Then he stops right behind a
    small clump of trees, directly in front of me. He steps out & looks
    back up to me again. The only shot I have is to the head, neck or part
    of the left front quarter. This guy is smart. I don't want to do a head
    shot, it'll ruin the mount. I'll go for the neck, my first shell is a
    slug so no chance of hitting the head with a spray of buck shot (which
    happened to be the next shell in line). I've got to do something &
    quick, this guy is getting edgy & he's going to bolt any second now.
    BLLAAAAMMMMMMM.
    	POOF! He's gone, just like a magician. Damn! I missed. I could hear
    him crashing through the woods. I'll wait, maybe he'll swing around to
    check out what is was that scared him! 15 minutes go by. No sign of him
    nor do I hear him but I did hear some other gun shots. Maybe someone
    else got him? I'll go check out the area just in case I got lucky. I
    walk to where he was standing, I can see the scuff marks when he took
    off but no sign of any fur or blood, must have missed. I started to
    walk back to where I was standing & look at this. A small branch with the
    bottom half shattered. That was it, my slug hit the branch & got
    deflected downward. I decided to go back to where the deer was & look
    for where my slug hit. That's when I noticed it, blood everywhere. Up
    the side of the tree, big pools on the leaves, everywhere, it looks
    like a small masacre took place. ALRIGHT! I figured I'd find him laying
    dead a few yards away. WRONG! 
    
    	I tracked his blood trail drop by drop, on wet autumn leaves for 4
    hours & with the help of 3 other hunters that heard my shot & saw the
    deer. Nothing. He ran trough 2 swamp areas & laid down which must have
    coagulated his blood. It wasn't a fatal shot, I figure it must have
    grazed his chest because of where I was aiming, the deflection from the
    branch & the fact that a blood droppings where between his hoof prints.
    
    	That's why I dislike the slug. If I had my rifle (which I didn't
    own at the time but went out & bought befeore the next season) I think
    I would have taken him. I think my muzzleloader would have do the job.
    A 12 ga. slug is just too big for NE bush wackin'. But you use what you
    have available.
    
    Alan
       	

    
    let me understand this. You don't like slugs, because you bounced
    one off a tree branch and it didn't kill the deer?  Rifles would have
    done the same thing. It has been covered in here before about shooting
    through brush, at best it is a hit or miss thing, ALL bullets deflect.
    
    Can't blame the bullet, it was a part of hunting.
    
    --Bob
    

What makes you think a muzzleloader would have done any better???  confused...

Fra

    What they said.  I'd rather shoot a buck at close range with a slug
    then a 30-30.  Check out the foot lbs at the muzzle and see which will
    hit with more kinetic energy. There isn't anything out there that will
    not deflect if you hit a branch. 
    
    Jeff

     Well I just can't stand it any more. All of you MUST stop using that
    ineffective BUCK SHOT on your hunts. Send it to me for proper disposal 
    The hunt club I belong to have harvested about 30 deer this year using 
    this horrible ineffective ammo I believe that there has been one deer
    hit and lost this one tried to swim across the inner coastal waterway
    after being shot and did not make it. Pattern your gun if it does not
    handle one particular type/brand try another if no loading patterns
    well don't use that gun.  
     Don't blame the tool for improper use " This hammer keeps hitting my
    thumb". Buck shot in its proper place is very effective. Shot placement
    is just as critical as with any other hunting tool. A wounded animal is
    the same no matter what tool you use to inflict the wound. Know your
    tool and use it carefully.
     Of the deer I have taken this year 2 were taken with a 12 gauge using
    buck shot. This was during dog hunts both deer were in motion when hit
    and the longest distance either traveled was ~ 70 yrds. Past years
    experience is about the same . I have taken deer still hunting with a
    rifle that went farther after being hit through the ribcage. 
     Our forfathers harvested many heads of game with the puny long rifle 
    with a single 30 cal round ball at about 1300fps. Modern buck shot
    carries approx 12 times this energy in 10-12 similar balls. No tool is
    100% effective. In most eviroments I would not use buck shot but in
    some places it is all I would consider using...... Flame OFF......
    
     Things were getting a bit complacent in here....
    
                                                             Darrell   

    I understand what everyone's said & no it's not entirely true I dislike
    slugs because I lost a nice buck. I have had more luck with my shotgun
    than with my muzzleloader (I've also hunted longer with it too). I'm just
    saying I prefer hunting with the muzzleloader, it's a different tool to
    use. I still think if I was using a much smaller diameter bullet it
    MIGHT have (probably would have) just missed that branch & I would have
    hit my target & made the kill. Understand, the branch was only ~1/2"
    dia. (just an approximation - I did not measure it & it's been a few
    years so the old memory can't quite remember the size) and the entire
    BOTTOM portion, possibly bottom 1/2 of the branch was shattered.
    Therfore, I assumed the top portion of my slug hit the branch, in which
    case I surmised if the bullet was a smaller diameter it might have
    missed the branch. 
    	I know hunting in the woods is not the easiest task & you have to
    watch for things like overhanging branches. But when you're all hyped
    up over something like having an 8 point buck standing ~40' away, you
    have a tendency to forget the minor details especially when you have
    only a split second to make the decission to shoot or not to shoot.
     	I hunted for years with buckshot & slugs (I only had a shotgun to
    hunt with) & my buckshot would hold a nice tight pattern. But like I
    said earlier my preferences have changed, for now. Maybe in the future
    they'll change again.
    
    Alan
     

    re .20
    	Jeff,
    		Just a quick comment about what you said in your reply.
    <<<	Check out the foot lbs at the muzzle and see which will
    <<< hit with more kinetic energy.
    
    	At the distance I was shooting at, it doesn't make a hill of beans 
    about foot pounds & kinetic energy. I could have used a sling shot & 
    made a kill.8-) It's just everyone (almost) thinks they gotta have the 
    most biggest, the most powerful weapon known to mankind. Then they site
    them in to hit dead on at a hundred yards. What for? If you're hunting
    open plains then I can see it, but not for bush wackin' in New England.
    In all the years I've been hunting, I have yet to have a shot over 50
    yards & if I really think about I'll bet ya most shots haven't been over
    30 yards away. That's 90 feet! Next time you're in the woods, go pace
    off 90 feet, then 150 feet (50 yards) then pace off 300 feet (that's
    100 yards) & then look to see your point of beginning if you can, bend
    over so you can look through the brush like deer would(you do get a
    better view that way). I think you might be a bit shocked. This is
    providing you're hunting woods like in N.E.
    	All my guns are sighted in for & I target practice at 50 yards,
    dead on! I'll pop a couple of rounds at 100 yds. if there's room just
    to see how I am. No big deal if I can't do a 100.
    
    	Sorry for the soapbox. This is the issue I mentioned in my previous
    reply.
    
    Alan
     
    

    Alan,
    
     I think we agree on your last point.  Of all the deer I've shot, the
    vast majority have been under 75yds.  There aren't a heck of a lot of 
    places that you can take a 150 yd shot in the woods.
     My point of metioning the ft lbs at the muzzle of a slug gun was to 
    make the argument that the shotgun is a helluva weapon at close range.
    Alot of folks think that a slug is inadequate for deer, far from the
    truth.  Whatever you use, you still have to hit'em clean.
    
    Jeff

the one thing you have to take into consideration is that with a 100 yard zero,
your really limiting the potential of any flat shootin cartridge...  in order to
really appreciate the capabilities of any of your top 5 or so favorites for deer, 
you really want to be a little high at 100 therefore pushing your second crossing 
out further...  (ie. with a 3"+ at 100 yds, i'm never above or below the line of
sight by more than 4" all the way out past 350 or so with my .270 thereby 
eliminating any need for hold over, or missses due to miscalculating distances.

While your majority of shooting will be within 100 yds, there is always that off 
chance of seeing deer in open meadows or across clearcuts, or even in open 
hardwood, and you can bet i'm not gonna pass up an opportunity because i have no
idea what the hold over is.  Or worse yet don't have the capability to even take 
the shot.  If you want to limit yourself, by all means go ahead, I wait to long
each year for an opportunity to have to pass over one cause i can't reach... ;^)

Just for the record i'm not a big advocate of asskicking magnums... just a cartridge 
that hits where i'm aiming, whether it be 30 yards or 300 yards...

FWIW, Fra

    Jeff,
    
    <	....make the argument that the shotgun is a helluva weapon at close
    range.
    
    	I fully agree with you, a shotgun is a helluva weapon at close
    range, best if used under 75 yds. A muzzleloader is best if used under
    50-60 yds. And either weapon can take out a deer at 100 yds. Like you
    said no matter what the distance a good clean shot is required,
    especially if taken at ~100 yds or more. My shotgun I used 2 3/4" mags,
    with my muzzleloader is use 90 grains of powder with a miniball & my
    rifle is use 150 grain bullets factory loads.
    	Just another point to make, I don't use a scope with any of my
    weapons and that's not for any other reason than the fact I've never
    hunted with one. I've thought about buying one for my rifle but haven't
    done it yet. So all the time I'm practicing & sighting in my guns it's
    without the aid of a scope. So at 50 yds. it's dead on - bullseye to 9
    and at 100 yds it's usually in the kill zone - in the black or just
    outside. That's with just my rifle & muzzleloader, I haven't done any
    target shooting with my shotgun for quite some time.
    	My shotgun is used for bird hunting
    	My muzzleloader is used for deer hunting in So. NH (shotgun zones)
    	My 30-30 rifle is used for deer hunting central NH                                                     
    
    
    	Alan
    

    Shot lots of deer with shotguns in our hunt camp. Here are the rules we
    have established over years of experience.
    
    Only use 3" or bigger buckshot shells. The 2 3/4" stuff is just not
    enough.
    
    Load a slug as first shell followed by buckshot.
    
    Never shoot buckshot at anything farther than 40 yards max.
    
    Always aim for the head/neck area with buckshot.
    
    And last, and this is the most important. Pattern your shotgun with
    both slugs and buckshot. They all do not shoot the same. Know your gun.
    
    Shotguns are deadly on deer when used right.
    
    Les