Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    Why do they let you shoot spikes?
    
    Jeff

>    Why do they let you shoot spikes?

Can't speak for Bob or the hunting club since I'm not affiliated with 
it, but it probably has to do with the notion that Spikes are 
genetically inferior to bucks with "normal" racks.  There was an 
article a while back (Georgia Sportsman) that said a buck with a good 
genetic background will produce a typical rack, even with relatively 
poor food/nutrition (it might be small, but it'll still be typical).  
Spikes, on the other hand, have been shown to grow only spikes 
regardless of nutrition, and that their offspring are genetically 
predisposed to also be spikes.

Scott

    Re.190
    
     I have read several books and articles which contradict the theory
    that "once a spike, always a spike".  It seems counter productive to
    shoot spikes if you are managing for trophy deer.  

    I agree with the concept of not shooting spikes.  But it's not my
    hunting club, I don't make the rules.  I am not even in it this year.
    Perhaps the moderator should move all these side notes to another file,
    because I really feel an interesting conversation can happen on this
    topic.
    
    Bob
    

    After reading these notes I decided to jump in like I had good sense.
    
    According to the deer biologists here in Texas.... A buck with 6 in.
    spikes or greater has a tendency to always be a spike if all things
    remain equal. The greatest factor of change being nutrition and even
    that would take an exceptional year to make a difference. A buck of
    good genetic background will fork his first antlers even with marginal
    nutrition. 
    On our farm we shoot spikes with long antlers. Spikes does NOT include
    button bucks. The reason for shooting long spikes is to keep them from
    passing on this genetic trait. If you have been hunting deer for long
    you have probably learned to tell the difference between yearling spike
    and a spike that is 3 or more years old. I DO NOT shoot yearling spikes
    but will not think twice about shooting an older spike to cull him from
    the gene pool.
    Also anyone tring to manage for trophy deer needs to shoot not only
    bucks but also does. It is impossible for the dominant buck to breed
    with all the does if there are too many. The best ratio of buck to doe
    here anyway is 1:1. This insures that the dominant buck can breed MOST
    of the does and if there are not too many he will run the lesser
    bucks off to keep the does for himself. If he has too many to breed he
    will not run off the lesser bucks and they will be allowed to breed.
    
    enough ramblin'
    Harvey
    

RE -1:

Good point!  I made an assumption (I know, I know) that we wer talking 
mature Spikes.  I personally can't condone killing button bucks, 
either.  Most of the deer killed (assumption alert) around where I 
hunt are 1.5 years old, so "mature" would be a relative term.

I think Tennesse has a limit saying that the antlers must be at least 
3" long to be considered legal.  That might solve a lot of the 
questions is Georgia did something like that, too.  

Scott

    Re-6:
    
    There is also a 3" minimum on spikes here in Ky. too.  I read about
    the same thing in "Buckmasters".  It said that several "spikes" in
    captivity have grown to "Pope and Young" status.  I would have to 
    agree with the texan in shooting the long spiked bucks.  They "might"
    reach a decent size, but the odds would be alot better to put the
    spiked bucks in the skillet and let a symmetrical buck breed the does
    that they would have bread.
    
    A friend of mine had some of the worst looking antlered bucks in our
    county on his farm about 8 years ago and we started passing up the small
    6 and pointers and shooting does and spikes.  Since then I took a decent
    8 pointer (18" spread) and he took a 6 pointer last year that weighed
    over 200lbs and had a really nice spread.  We have seen ALOT more
    decent bucks and ALOT less of the crummy bloodline.  
    
    Wess  

    There is no minimum here in Georgia, and the hunting club president,
    Lamar, shoots only mature spikes.  Yearling spikes walk.
    
    Bob>>>>>one more week>
    

    
    You will most likely find in states that have a minimum antler length
    for legal bucks is one antler at least 3" in length. So if a buck is
    seen with at least one 6" spike this would catagorize him as a "bad"
    gene pool buck and should be culled.
    
                                                       Guy
    

    Egads, the one on film for about 50min last month had about 10in
    spikes.  I would guess this boy went about 140lb.  Looked part kangeroo
    too with very large hindquarters but smallish front end.  My son has
    already said "I'll take him" so maybe he should.
    
    /bob
    

    
    	Regarding "mature" spikes, I'd like to know how you tell if the 
    buck is mature or not by the length of his spikes...  Any spike,
    whether he's got 3" or 10" spikes is typically a 1.5 year old;
    these spikes being his first set of antlers.  As someone in here 
    suggested, many of these spikes, given the proper nutrition, will go
    on to become P&Y class deer in their later years.   I can't see how
    you're going to know if a spike is 3.5 years old and considered
    "mature".  I've read many articles which suggest the old philosophy
    that "1.5 year old spikes are genetically inferior" is basically
    hogwash, and that antler growth is primarily based on age and
    nutrition, with genetics being the final and least important part of 
    the equation.  FWIW  - Rob
    
    

    I'd also like to know how you can tell a mature spike from a 1.5 yr old
    spike... or better yet a mature spike from a very large and well
    nourished 1.5 yr old spike...
    
    we've shot alot of spike horns off the farm, and a few of them have 
    been 3.5 yrs old... how you could tell one of them from your average 
    1.5 yr spike is beyond me... especially in waning light, under hunting
    conditions...
    
    has it occured to anyone that they might be shooting some really large 
    yearlings??  with trophy potential...
    
    More FWIW,  Fra

    
                I believe the biggest factor as far as a
    bucks antler growth goes, is nutrition.  If a buck is in good
    health and feeding under ideal food conditons, then he can
    develop a decent set of antlers, in his second/third year.
    As far as genetics, I can neither confirm nor deny, as I've
    heard conflicting reports on that theory.
    
                 Another FWIW,
    
                          Bob
                            

	FWIW:  I agree with Rob and Fra.  How you going to know till
	the deer's teeth are checked and maybe a tissue sample is tested?  
	Maybe our transient expert will return and tell us how its done.

 My deer was a 1.5 year animal, and it had a decent enough set of antlers
for such a young animal. I expect that means that the massive hoofprints
we sometimes see belong to an animal with an impressive rockingchair atop
his skull. :-)  (One can at least hope...)

    
    Re: last few
    
    Well I hope I'm not the transient expert mentioned earlier cuz
    I definitly aint. I'm only trying to relate how we do it here at home.
    The way I "judge" a spikes age is muscle tone more then anything else,
    and before anyone jumps on that, YES it is fallable and we do make some
    mistakes.
    Just as you can look at a teenage boy and tell the difference in his
    body tone versus a 30 year old you can do the same with deer. The coat
    will also tend to darken with age. In low light either is not fool
    proof.
    
    Everyone has to develope his own method of management. What works for
    me may or may not work for someone else. All I can do is offer up the
    outcome of my method over the last 15 years.
    
    Rules of harveys management:
    
    1. shoot spikes of 6 in. or more.
    2. shoot doe before taking a buck.
    3. DO NOT shoot fork horns or button bucks.
    
    Maybe it's luck, who knows, but we no longer see any spikes, and the
    SMALLEST buck taken last year was an 8 pt.
    All this "management" has taken place on my 200 acre farm over about
    12-15 years. 
    
    I still believe like the biologists do that if a buck does not fork his
    first year, chances are that he will not if all else remains equal.
    
    It works for me but your mileage may vary. :*)
    Harvey_who's_stubborn_enough_to_keep_doing_his_way
    

    Steroids in the mineral block?
    
    

    re.16 Sounds okay to me, but remember, in an area with less 
    mineral nutrition in the soil/browse you might have to use
    a different approach. Where I hunt in Vermont the average 
    1.5-year-old has spikes, but they do fork in their second 
    year (if they survive the first hunting season they're legal.)

    re.18
    
    That was the reason I put in the last para. on .16.
    
    What works for me may/may not work for you. Your statement about the
    1.5 yr. olds being spikes just confirms what I said in an earlier reply
    the single most important factor in racks is nitrition. If you can't
    change that then the other factors is all you have to work with i.e.
    genetics...etc. Anyway I believe that anyone who has CONTROL over
    their hunting area can devise a suitable management system. If you have
    no control you may as well not manage unless all the surrounding
    people are also willing to do management. That is one advantage I have
    here in Texas, Hunting is BIG business and almost everyone does some
    kind of management.
    
    12 days to bow season
    Harvey
    

    I PICKED UP THIS MONTHS ISSUE OF "BUCKMASTERS" AND THE LAST PAGE
    DISCUSSED THE "SPIKE ISSUE".  IF YOU GET A CHANCE YOU MIGHT WANT TO
    CHECK IT OUT.  
    
    10 DAYS TO BOW SEASON
    WESS

    Well, its been a year since anybody has heard from me. I'm baaaaccccck.
    
    From the articles I've read in the many magazines, the first year and a
    half to two years of a bucks life, all nutriants go towards body growth
    and weight.  The antler growth is secondary.  This would account for
    the many spikes killed at 1.5 years of age.
    
    Now I've killed a few spikes myself in past years but with all the
    articles, I will probably let some walk this season.  I'm hunting in a
    club with my brother-in-law (Lamar) and it is a trophy club.  We have 3100
    acreas with 12 members.  It may get a little crowded but I think I'll
    find a place to put my stand.
    
    I read the article in Buckmaster and it said that Bob Zaglin taged a
    1.5 year old spike at the ranch he manages in Texas and they tracked
    it.  The next year it was a nice 8 pointer.
    
    Of course, this is my opinion.

    re: .21
    
    > "... bob zaglin tagged a 1.5 yr old spike... next year it was a nice 8
    pointer..."  not a direct quote, but you get the point...
    
    I rest my case!!!   
    
    Whoever said that all spikehorns were genetically inferior obviously 
    didn't read this... Most, if not all of the articles i've read 
    have stated quite often that antler growth is secondary to
    body growth and adaquate weight for winter survival.  So based on
    nutritional value of available food, antler development could be
    severely hindered.  Which would explain the smallish racks we find on
    the farm in VT. ;^)  There isn't an oak tree for miles, and the sugar
    maples are pretty much overabundant.
    
    I'm sure that there is alot of genetics involved also, but I personally
    believe that nutritional value of available browse is more of a factor
    where average bucks are concerned.  
    
    Fra

    
    Maybe I didn't understand what I thought I wrote.:-)
    
    Nutrition is the #1 factor in antler growth. On a managed area where
    all bucks have access to the same food plus the occassional mineral
    block, why would one buck be an 8-10 pt and another be a 6" spike at
    relatively the same age and body weight? Genetics, maybe!
    
    My management method seems to be working and I'll continue with it.
    
    FWIW
    Harvey

	At the motel we are staying at for the bow season in PA. The guy
who owns the motel also does deer management studys for the state. He has
a pen with about 10 deer in it. Last year there was big 8 pointer, we called
him this year and he said it is still 8 points just bigger. The other 8
pointer he had that was smaller body wise went up to 9 points this year.
Also two of the doe's each had a set of twin bucks. All four new-borns already
have 3 inch spikes and are only 6 months old.
	Its fun standing outside the pen a watching a big 8 pointer just
walk around.

/Ron

    Harvey, first off, I'm not questioning the way you manage
    your place...  What i'm having difficulty with, is how you can tell a 
    large well fed yearling spike from a mature one... under "HUNTING" 
    conditions.
    
    Now if i saw 3 deer standing in the field behind the camp, and 2 of
    them were basket racked animals while the 3rd and largest of the lot
    was a spikehorn, then maybe even I could make an assumption that it was
    mature and therefore, genetically inferior... Pretty pristine
    conditions, a lone spike in the woods would be inherently harder to 
    judge.  Course then again, who'd shoot the spike in the field, when 
    they had 1 tag and 3 deer to choose from... ;^)
     
    I still stand on my other remark however, and that is: 
    
    Has it occured to anyone that they may be shooting some really large 
    yearlings with trophy potential???
    
    yet even more FWIW,  Fra                                  

    re -1
    
    Fra,
    
    I see your point. I also believe shooting spikes is at best guesswork.
    Maybe I'm lucky in that I have what I think is a fairly well controlled
    area and can make assumptions that others may/may not be able to make
    with any confidence.
    Good example with 3 deer together in field. I agree that most people
    would not take the spike but would pick one of the others. That's just
    human nature. (get it while you can syndrome)
    
    Well, I think we are all saying the same things from vastly different
    directions, so I'll just read awhile.
    
    Harvey
    

    Harvey,
    
    please continue with the replys, if not this note, to the many others.
    Nothing personal meant by any of my replys...
    
    Just trying to compare situations here, and having trouble
    comprehending how it would work up here in VT/MA/NH...
    
    course then again, when you can shoot more than 1 deer per season, it's
    nice to have those kinds of alternative methods of game management. ;^)
    
    regards, Fra

    FWIW,,,,I wish I had the resources the do some kind of 'management'
    here in MA.  I don't think you folks know just how lucky you are.  I
    laugh at the thought of not harvesting the first spike that walks by
    my stand because next year he might be an 8 pointer.
    
    My feeling is if I don't, someone else will take him, and there is
    nothing wrong with that.
    
    If anyone out there owns a huge piece of land in MA,NH,VT I would love
    to try to manage a herd on it.  Imagine, growing your own trophy, what a
    concept.:^)
    
    jim
    
    p.s. This file is great, and none of the replys are repititious in my
    mind.  Just different strokes for different folks, I say tomato, you
    say tomato.
    
    
     
    
    Just my two cents...Jim

    re -1
    
    Jim,
    That was my point. We, IMHO, were all saying the same thing just
    differently.
    Fra,
    I don't take things personally. I disagree with people and don't get my
    feelings (my wife says I don't have any) hurt.
    
    Jim again,
    It doesn't take a huge piece of land to manage. If you can make sure
    all the buck needs is there he'll stay on 20-30 acres. We have an oak
    mott next to our office in San Antonio. This is on I.H. 10 and inside
    the city limits by 5 miles. It measures about 20 acres. Since we moved
    here 7 years ago we have watched from the 7th floor while a buck grew
    from a fork horn to a nice 10 pt this year. He is never seen outside
    this little sanctuary and there is about 6-8 doe in there with him.
    I have toyed with the idea of taking my bow in there and trying to take
    him, but just can't bring myself to do it. Point being, space can be
    minimal as long as the deer do not have to go look for something. 
    I also have a yearling buck that lives in the 1 acre yard I keep cut at
    the farm. He eats dog food and sleeps in a pile with my dogs. To my
    knowlege he has never left the yard.
    
    enough ramblin'
    harvey
    

People, People, People!!!!

I can NOT let this topic die. I think it is far too important. I know I said
I would just read for awhile. But there seemed to be little if any discussion
on management happening.

In one of my earlier replies I tried (apparently unsuccessfully) to describe
telling a mature buck from a yearling to 3 yr. old. Well in the latest
edition of NORTH AMERICAN WHITETAIL I found an article that states it better
then I did. (probably why I don't get paid to write for a magazine)..:-)

This is copied WITHOUT permission from North American Whitetail, Nov. 1992
Author is Dr. James C. Kroll in answer to a management question.

"As a deer manager, I have produced as many B&C bucks as anyone. I have 
accomplished this through a restricted MATURE buck harvest, coupled with
maximizing fawn production. The so called '8 point or better' rule has gotten
many a manager into trouble. In my management program we attempt to shoot
only does and MATURE bucks (5 1/2 years or older). However it is very
difficult to get the average hunter to the point at which he can determine
the age of a buck on the hoof. Even some biologists have trouble, in spite
of the fact that it is quite simple- IF YOU DON'T LOOK AT THE ANTLERS.

Mature bucks appear to have abnormally short legs, sagging bellies, 
squinty eyes and walk very slowly. If you can picture a mature herford bull,
you have a mature buck in mind. An older buck LOOKS very different from a 
young one."

The last paragraph is the important one. This is what I was trying to say
when I mentioned body TONE in an earlier reply. Dr. Kroll is more eloquent
then I am, that's why I put it here and it lists specific things to look 
for.

Hope this will help someone, and clear a little of the MUD I stirred up
earlier in not being specific enough.

His closing statement says it all about management.
"It is unfortunant that few hunters are willing to pay the price of trophy
management. For the price of a few years of self-control, the results
certainly are rewarding."

Paying the price doesn't seem like the problem in this notes file. It sounds
to me like most will pay the price for the wherewithall to accomplish the
management.

just MHO,
Harvey

                             

    
    re .30
    
    I hear ya, and would love to be able to have an opportunity to pass up
    a young buck, or see more than one (if I see one at all) to have
    something to compare against.  I have only seen a couple of bucks over
    3 1/2 years in the woods, one I shot - but not immediately fatal -
    someone else recovered, and one I watched 3 days before rifle season 
    last year.  By the way he's still going and has 11 points this year.
    How do these bucks do it?  Anyway some of the points brought up in
    your reply strike true to this big boy - he looked disproportionate,
    with a very large body and short legs, but he was very tall, at least
    8-10" taller than the mature doe that was next to him.  And he had a
    very deep chest, coming way down between his front legs with a bulge
    about where a holstein would have one.  But in Vermont just seeing a 
    buck like this is such a treat, seeing one through the scope might be
    a once in a lifetime event.
    
    So theoretically this is very good, but in New England where most of
    the hunters in this file are from, there just isn't the opportunities.
    
    So if I see bone, I'm sending a .270 slug home!!!!
    
    Kevin

MUTT::HAMRICK "The Great White Rabbit ..."           50 lines  28-OCT-1992 17:01
                           -< DON'T look at antlers >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

� Mature bucks appear to have abnormally short legs, sagging bellies, 
� squinty eyes and walk very slowly. If you can picture a mature herford bull,
� you have a mature buck in mind. An older buck LOOKS very different from a 
� young one." 

I had to laugh when I read this, kinda reminds me of some of the BUCKS in this 
conference! :^) x100

-Kendall

iIf I even remotely had a chance at seeing something that big, I think I 
could say with a reasonable amount of certainty that it was a mature 
buck. Unfortunately, in the states/areas I hunt, and with the thick woods 
and fleeting glimpses that a northeast hunter gets, scrutinizing if it had 
short legs and a big belly is not an option.  If you see one buck a 
season your doing something right.

In texas however where you may see deer out to 300+ yds, there are ample 
opportunities to eye it for size and maturity.  In VT/MA if you see a deer 
with bone, you either shoot immediately or lose it.

BTW, one other thing to check for is that if the nose is "caving in" due 
to cartilege breakdown because of old age, you have a mature deer.

FWIW, Fra

    Fra,
    
    I hear what you are saying. The northeast apparently needs a totally
    different management system then we do in the southwest. I have no
    experience (changes in 2 wks) hunting in the northeast. But I will get
    a first hand look at it in mid november when I will hunt with Christine
    and Gunther Bauer in Maryland. Until then I'll reserve judgement.
    
    Harvey
    

    
    	To continue on with the conversation regarding mature bucks
    carrying spikes being inferior genetically with regard to antler 
    growth - a buddy of mine shot a buck in central Vt this year with
    3 points weighing 195 # !!  It was aged at 3 1/2 years.  Now I totally
    agree that this deer falls into the genetic antler inferior catagory.
    Although the main beams appeared "normal", being fairly thick and
    heavy, only one side forked.  It is probably good that he shot that
    deer.
    
    - Rob 

    
    I went to the NRA hunters clinic last night in Manchester NH, one of
    the 3 speakers was a deer biologist who was a very good speaker, he
    talked about three different management practices: trophy, quality and
    quantity. Said most states are shooting themselves in the foot for
    short term gain by going for numbers, most should be going for
    quality. 
    
    Anyway, it related to this note when he talked about managing for
    trophies, he went into the 4 main things that effect antler growth, 
    guess what, genetics was 4th. First was age, then nutrition, I forget
    the last, but he said genetics usually has little to do with it since
    geneticaly inferior deer simply either don't survive or don't breed.
    
    He then put the crowd to a 'cull/don't cull' test by showing about 
    10 pictures of deer on one of the places he manages.  Most were 
    yearling bucks with their first set of antlers, they ranged from 
    long spikes, short spikes up to smallish 4/6 pointers. Also a 7 year
    old with a smallish 8 point rack. EVERY ONE OF THE DEER, THE NEXT YEAR
    produced a B&C rack, even poor Gregg who had little spikes about
    2 inches long. Needless to say most everyone in the crowd fluncked
    the test :-)
    
    He said the biggest reason by far for the difference in antlers in the
    first year was simply when the fawn was born. Does go into estrous 
    3 times, which covers 3 months starting in October, they go into
    estrous every 28 days or until they are bred.  The fawns born early get
    the nicer first sets of antlers simply because they have more time to
    eat and grow.  He said genetics can't really be determined until they
    are 3-5 years old. Large deer with 6-8 point racks should be culled out
    as being inferior, leaving the 10+ pointers to breed and grow.  Poor
    Gregg turned into a B&C buck looked to be about 12 points.
    
    Another point he stressed was culling does, the goal is to have every
    dow have a fawn, if this isn't happening then you have to many deer
    around and the best way to reduce it is to eliminate does.
    
    he said there is a program going on, sort of like fishing's catch and
    release, its called "let them walk", he said the ones you want to take
    are the full grown, large bodied bucks with the 6 and 8 point racks, if
    they are not full grown, or they are trophy bucks, then let them walk
    (unless you are out for a trophy).
    
    It was all pretty interesting. One other point he made was that 
    coyotes have basically no real effect on the deer heard.
    
    --Bob
    

    
    Bob, I saw the same show up here in Burlington, it was excellent,
    wasnt' it!  The biologist was Dr. James Kroll, notable columnist for
    many outdoor magazines such as North American Whitetail.  I, too, was
    most impressed with the antlers on some of those 'spikes' when they
    were allowed to get older!  In fact, one of the yearlings he mentions
    was a 7 point and later on in life (at age 5 1/2) he was still a
    7-point (albeit much larger).
    
    Another interesting thing he showed was a picture of a buck at age 9
    1/2 with a smaller frame rack with short points.  When he asked
    everyone whether or not the deer should be taken, everyone unanimously
    agreed.  Then he shows another picture of the same deer one year later
    with an incredibly huge rack (almost as though you can't believe it,
    but the antler characteristics looked similar).  The reason for the
    change:  the year the deer grew the smaller frame rack, he was fed only
    corn (lots of carbohydrates but little nutrients such as phosphorus,
    calcium and protein).  The next year the same deer was fed a mixed,
    balanced diet with adequate protein and minerals.  Thus the impressive
    rack!  Just goes to show you how big a difference feed is.
    
    - Rob

    Ok.  Looks like I got to get into the woods with mineral blocks now.
    
    To bad I missed the show in Atlanta.  Maybe next year.
    
    bob
    

    
    bob,
    
    If you mean things like salt blocks, according to this guy, don't 
    waste your time. It doesn't work. You need phospherous, and in
    low percentages I believe. Your clover (I think it was you) that you
    were planting is good, also alphalpha is good. He distinctly 
    pointed out mineral blocks and salt blocks as a total waste of time.
    
    --BOb
    

    So it sounds like don't waste time buying mineral blocks.  what kind of
    clover can you plant in spring and have it last thru summer and early
    autumn, that would supply alot of those nutrients.  I know winter rye
    wouldn't last thru summer.  I would like to plant something now, for a
    quality yield.
    
    Bob
    

    
    I don't recall much of the plants he mentioned, I know he mentioned
    clover and alfalfa (remember that since my uncle has a 35 acre 
    alfalfa field that we hay for his sheep, could be a nice place to 
    check).
    
    I would say the best place to ask is the local F&G or local area
    biologist. What you could plant would probably be location dependant,
    what lives up here may not make it through the summer down there
    etc.
    
    --Bob
    

    
    	As Bob said, clover and alfalfa are good (nitrogen fixing legumes),
    lots of nutrients for summer and early fall.  Also, Dr. James Kroll
    recommended wheat and corn for late fall/winter for the carbohydrates.
    he recommended nutrient rich spring/summer/early fall feed, and carbo
    rich late fall and winter feeds.  He did mention one mineral block 
    that was good, but it was of the softer variety that they could
    actually chew on and eat.  Forget the hard varieties...
    
    good luck, Rob