Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

Carlos,

I too use a 270 for hunting elk.  I have harvested 2 bulls and a cow in the 
last 4 seasons that I have hunted elk.  Personally I prefer a serria SPBT, 150
grain, home load.  Get about 3000 fps out of the load.  Just pick your shot
and you should have no problems with a 140 grain bullet.  A fair size cow
weighs about 550-600 lbs. and fair herd bull will run 750-800 lbs.  Dragging
one of these animals in the Rockies is impossible.  Even with a couple of 
horses.  You will probably have to pack 'em out.

I hunt in northern Colorado and find the highest concentration of elk in
northern bowls with ready access to water, dark timber, and parks or meadows.
A few aspen groves never hurt either.

Elk do not like people either.  Where mulies may run a couple of miles when
pushed, elk will run into the next county.  BTW, big bulls usually stay up
in the high country as long as they can.  Where 12" of snow will push deer
down into lower parts, it takes a couple of feet of snow to start the elk
moving.

If you have a chance to do some serious scouting before the season you can
greatly increase your odds.

Also, if your are not use to altitude, might I suggest a rigorous training
schedule while breathing through a straw.  I live @ 6,000 ft and normally 
hunt elk around 10,000 ft.  Training makes a hunt much more enjoyable.

Good hiking or pac boots (and gaitors) are must.  A very strong backed knife,
and a small hand saw.  Compass and a topo map is must if you don't know the
area.   Lots of rope for getting the meat up into the trees so bear and coyote
cannot get to it.

You can start out hunting in a flannel shirt and end the day with 12" of snow
on the ground.  I always carry a pack frame with enough provisions to stay out
over night just in case I shoot an animal in the afternoon.   Carrying the frame
while I hunt allows me carry equipment to get the animal quartered, up in the
trees and return to camp with a first load.  Plan on making at least 5 (75-80
lbs.) trips (partial deboning) if you have to pack an animal out on your back. 
Hopefully your loaded trips all be down hill.  Mine never seem to be. 

What is altitude you will be hunting at?  I've found the DOW very helpful when
hunting a new area.  Make some time to talk/correspond with officers that
patrol the area you are looking at hunting.  Loggers, sheep herders, rangers
and stockmen who run cattle on BLM or National Forest lands will also
normally point you in the right direction.

Good luck,

Mark
    

    I know this isn't what your looking for but I just found out that I may
    get sent out to New Mexico for a few months on business. It just
    happens to cover all of hunting season .....My question is what type of
    game is there to hunt in New Mexico and is it all by permit. I'm
    assuming that it's too late to apply for elk but I heard that there is
    both Mule and Whitetail deer with some Pronghorn mixed in. I have a
    Weatherby Mark V 30-06 that I would love to put to the test out West
    and this looks like an opportunity... I would appreciate any info.
    
    Sorry for busting in on your note.....If the moderator would like to
    move it, that's fine.
    
    Bob M �

    Bob,
    
    Aren't you the guy that came to Georgia and fished with Louis Moore? 
    If so, how was the trip?  Did he treat you right?
    
    If you are not the same Bob, commence with New Mexico hunting.
    
    bob
    

    Hi Bob,
    
    Yes, that's me. I had a great time with Louis. Unfortunately a low
    pressure area moved in and the stripers shut down. We then went spotted
    bass fishing and landed about 20 between us. No size though. Louis is
    an excellent guy to spend the day fishing with. He knows his stuff and
    we had a great time even though the fishing wasn't that good......
    
    No guarantees fishing or hunting.....if there was it wouldn't be fun
    for me.
    
    Bob M�

    Re. .1
    
    Thanks for the tips Mark, that's exactly the kind of stuff I am wanting
    to hear. NOt to sure what the altitude is, but I'd guess it's somewhere
    between 10k - 12k feet. Also I'm not sure what you meant by a DOW in
    new terrain.
    
    Re. .2
    
    Bob, no problem with you busting in here. As far as game animals in
    N.M., we've got: black bear, cougar, elk (obviously), muley &
    white-tailed deer, antelope, mountain goats (rams), oryx & ibex
    (African animals that were successfully introduced, the oryx is really
    a beautiful animal), javelina (little wild boars), turkey, plus a
    variety of game birds, but I don't think you'd be too interested in
    hunting those with a .06 ?? I'll bring my hunting proclamation in
    tommorow and let you know about what will be in season while you're
    here, and the costs and stuff.
    
    Keep those elk pointers coming...
    
    Carlos            
    

    Carlos,
    
    They may be called something else in N.M.  In Colorado, DOW = Division
    of Wildlife.  
    
    Best of luck,
    
    Mark
    
    

	Carlos, I was not going to say this, but (as ususal) I can't
	keep my opinion to myself :-). You say you are aware of the
	"controversy" of the .270 Win for elk, basically that is a
	question of light, small caliber bullets on a large and tough
	animal. Personally, I think you'll do fine with the .270, but
	I don't understand why you choose a 140 grs bullet? You can
	get both 150 and 160 grs Nosler Partitions - to stay with 
	your original (good) choice - in .277 cal. Both of those
	bullets will offer you more penetration which
	is what you want for a big animal like an elk! Much of the
	extra weight has been added in the rear core partition - you
	can count on loosing the entire front core if you hit any
	sort of bone. Added weight in the rear core might just mean
	the difference between tracking with or without a blood
	trail.

	I don't know if you roll your own loads, in which case choosing
	another bullet is no big deal. If not, find somebody you trust
	to load up for you - even at higher expense than factory loads!
	Whatever you do, try out your loads in all kinds of conditions
	before you go. Cycle all cartridges through the chamber to make
	sure they will chamber and extract without the bullet staying in the
	barrel. If you can get good accuracy - fine - but don't worry 
	about accuracy if you are under, say, 2" at 100 yds, that's
	really all you'll need. And with regards to lighter vs heavier
	bullets, don't let yourself get tricked into believing that the
	better muzzle velocities of the lighter bullets make them 
	superior for long shots. Yes lighter bullets do shoot a bit flatter,
	but only a relatively short ranges. The difference in the
	field is going to be minimal, and the heavier bullet will give
	you more punch!

	As I said, just one man's opinion! :-)

	Best of luck, and don't dare to forget to tell us how you made
	out!

							- Mike

	P.S *is* there a Nosler Partition in .277 cal in 140 grs??

    Does anybody have an opinion of silver tips (no not for werewolves)?
    For the sake of this topic it may be what Carlos is looking for. Say a
    150 grain silver tip out of the .270. I have seen them used on
    whitetail in Maine out of the .308 at about 60 yards. the penetration
    was unbelievable but there was no expansion. It sounds like just what
    the doctor ordered for large game such as the Elk. It's more expensive
    but when you consider what your after it's probably worth it.
    
    Bob M�

	Opinion on Silvertips. They open up fast, they don't have a
	reputation for holding together as well as, say, the Partitions.
	Biggest advantage in my mind, you can get them in heavier than
	standard weights in factory loaded ammo (e.g. 220 grs in .30-06).
	On Elk I would use a Partition or even better one of the super
	premium bullets: Swift or Trophy Bonded (Bear Claw). Yes I
	know the latter will set you back 2-3 $ per bullet, but for 
	hunting they are worth it! 

							- Mike

I've switched to 150 gr. Sierra Grand Slams for my .270.  I get
good accuracy (avg. 1.5" groups), but can't attest to their stopping
power as I've only been using them for a year.

The other thing you might consider is some of the premium ammo offered
by Federal and (I believe) Remington.  I don't know that much about
them, except that they're supposed to use better bullets.

Jerry

    >>P.S *is* there a Nosler Partition in .277 cal in 140 grs??
    
    Hi Mike, and others. First off, let say me thanks for your opinion.
    Secondly, in the base note I mistakenly said I'd be using 140 grn
    partitions, but going thru my stuff lasted night I see that they're
    really 150 grns, and they are federal premiums. I had purchased 'em
    last year before a bear hunt and I've had them in my ammo box since,
    but I think I confused myself after reading some article on .270's and
    the proper bullets to use. In the article it talked about 130 grns
    being faster and flatter, and the 150's being heavier, and suggested
    that the best of both worlds is a 140 grn load, which would be good for
    deer sized animals up to elk sized ones. It was a pretty convincing
    article, and I guess I must've made a mental message of getting some of
    these for my next hunt, which is where the confusion probably comes in.
    So I guess I'll be using 150 grainers after all. I'm not sure if they
    do make noslers for 140 grn, but I for one would be interested.
    
    Carlos
    

    A nice match for that gun.
    
    You should have no problems, but also no excuses.
    
    Ken

    Things I'm more wondering about than anything is the elks habits, like
    when do they feed, when do they sleep, do the bulls travel with the
    herd...if so when...Where's the best place to aim for? et...the
    neck...the ribs...shoulders ? Where's the best places to look for them,
    up in the high country, down in the meadows/valleys, in the thickets?
    When they spook will they run far...? What do they eat? What kinds of
    tricks do you guys use, or signs do you look for when elk hunting?
    These kind of things.
    
    Carlos
    

RE:                     <<< Note 1170.13 by ELMAGO::CGRIEGO >>>

>    Things I'm more wondering about than anything is the elks habits, like
>    when do they feed, when do they sleep, do the bulls travel with the
>    herd...if so when...Where's the best place to aim for? et...the
>    neck...the ribs...shoulders ? Where's the best places to look for them,
>    up in the high country, down in the meadows/valleys, in the thickets?
>    When they spook will they run far...? What do they eat? What kinds of
>    tricks do you guys use, or signs do you look for when elk hunting?
>    These kind of things.
    
see note 79.*    

Carlos,

Elk are much like any other big game animal.  Full moons are an elk hunters
curse (generally speaking).

Also, elk are considered graziers (grasses, forbes).  Where deer are considered
browsers.  This is why elk often feed in flats, meadows and parks.

Elk like dark timber.  This makes it very difficult to hunt for them due to
deadfalls often encountered in these types of woods.  I know relatively few
hunters who are good enough to sneak up on elk in dark timber.

Elk spend most of the daylight hours in the dark timber.  Fronts often start 
them moving.  Nights without moon light often cause elk to move earlier in the
evening and stay out later into the morning hours.

Of the three elk I have taken, all of them were harvested before 8:00 am.  They
had fed in the fields/sage flats and were moving back into the dark timber.  

Another point, don't rule out sage flats with ready access to dark timber (1 
mile or so.)  

Elk begin rutting in August/early September in Colorado.  The biggest bulls
normally run the herds at this time.  Cows that aren't bred in the first estrus 
cycle normally will come into heat again a month later.  Usually by this time
the big bulls have moved on to begin the recovery process for the winter 
and smaller (4*5, 5*5 or 5*6) bulls then take over the herds.  They can be found
with the herds until no more cows are receptive.

Rarely do I ever see good bulls with cows that are not heat.  They tend to avoid
them like the plague.

One thing I have noticed while tracking elk herds in the snow, a big bulls hoof
print will be considerably bigger than the biggest cow.  Also, if not pushed a
bull will meander behind the cows.  He will also urinate a he walks.  The lead
cow will normally lead the herd from feeding areas into dark timber.  So if you
see cows walking in line lay still.  Spike bulls normally appear before the
big herd bull.

If you can learn how to bark like a cow or mew like a calf you may be able to
avoid spooking animals you accidentally encounter.

Spend a lot more time glassing than walking.  You will spot more elk if you
are in the right area.  Spooked bulls run through dark timber like a freight
train.  If you are curious about what you spooked, look at the branches 5-6
feet above the ground.  If it was a nice bull you will be able to tell.

Finally, bulls love to wollow and these wollows are not just mud.  If you get
one, try not to allow the hair to touch meat. 

Best of luck,

Mark
    

    What's happening Carlos? 
    The following is from Colorado's Big Game stats book.
    Colorado has elk populations estimated at 170,000.
    Elk can run short distances at 35mph and can easily clear
    4 foot high obstacles. As mentioned earlier they can run
    all day long. A spike bull will dress out at about 300 lbs. 
    A 6 point is called a "Royal", a 7 point is an "Imperial"
    and an 8 point is a "Monarch". The average bull weighs 
    6-700 lbs and cows about 100 lbs less. Field dress mature bulls
    weigh about 437 lbs and cows about 339. 
    
    There is a lot about them that really fascinates me. I don't
    know enough about their behavior but I do know you should be 
    ready at all times. Your shot can be anywhere from 200+ yards
    to as close as 30 feet. Good luck.
    
    Bob

    Hey Bob S., thanks for the info. Have you ever gotten one?
    
    Re. .2 Bob M., I brought the hunting proclamation in, and it sounds
    from your note in .2 that you were mostly interested in deer, elk, and
    pronghorns. Well, you can pretty much forget about the elk and
    pronghorn, as you must apply for those licenses and hope you get drawn.
    Although the ranchers are alotted a certain number of licenses for
    their own use that many sell for around $5-600.00 each. Any
    non-resident can purchase deer (good for whitetail, or muley), turkey,
    bear, cougar, or small game (squirrel, and gamebirds other than turkey)
    licenses. The prices for non-residents are as follows:
    
    deer     $181.00
    turkey   $ 76.00
    bear     $151.00     
    cougar   $201.00
    sm. game $ 76.00    
    
    All of these except cougar, will have different hunts during the
    months of Oct-Nov. If you'd like more specific information, you can put
    a reply in here or call the D.O.W. @(505)827-7885. HtH.
    
    Carlos    
    

    
                         -<No harm. No foul>-
    

  It had been a long morning and by 10:30 the combination of hunger, 
fatigue and heat was beginning to take it's toll. That and the fact that
I had not seen a legal animal for the past two days added up to break time
and a cold one back at camp. It was an uphill walk all the way over
BLM road but I use the term 'road' very loosely here. It is a 
dusty old beaten thing that is deeply rutted from wetter and wilder times. 
Near the Black Canyon of the Gunnison,it meanders thru some meadows but mostly
thru thick stands of pinyon pine, limber pine and  lots of god-awful scrub oak. 
The mind tends to wander at times such as this and wandering it was,
thinking about a 100 things at once and then nothing at all. That was the
situation and unbeknown to me, the picture was about to change dramatically.

  At first it could barely be heard but something was moving in the brush just
up ahead. Before long the beating and pounding was abreast of me just off to
the right. I turned slowly as my pulse began quicken and there they were.
I said to myself.."it's ELK!". A herd of them were streaming nose to  tail
not more than 15 yards away thru the dense cover. My view was blocked so 
I slowly began to move up hoping to improve the picture but just then
there is a loud crash just ahead near the end of the herd and standing right 
in the middle of the road is a beautiful 5 point bull with 2 of his harem.
They weren't more than 35 yards away and they still hadn't seen me! 
The cows took one little peek at me and decided they had seen enough so
they tippy toed back in but the bull still hadn't seen me. With 
these critters crashing all  around me, well, I can honestly say I didn't
know weather<explitive deleted> or go blind and to top it off he starts walking 
towards me. It felt like an eternity and he got so close I thought I might
touch him but then he hit the brakes and he slowly raised his head and 
looked me right in the eye.

  As fate would have it, that bull and I each made a big mistake that 
morning. He was probably thinking how sweet that last breath tasted and
even he was hoping the shot would cleanly and quickly dispatch him to greener
subalpine meadows. What was my mistake?  I didn't have an elk tag.
In a twisting mass of horns, hooves muscle and dust, he made a spectacular 
departure. We parted company right then and there probably never to see each 
other again.   However, I believe I can speak for the both of us when I say we 
came out of that affair much wiser.  With any kind of luck at all we'll 
both get a little older too. 
 

  Bob

    

    My half penny worth....
    
    Bob...Great article..
    
    Re. .270; Good firearm for taking Elk.  I've seen it done. As far as
    the bullet.  I don't know.  I would think that if I were shooting
    something that fast, at something that big, with real good shot
    placement I would use a heavier bullet that expanded without
    dissentagrating(sp)
    
    But, as always GOOD shot placemnet is what counts.
    
    
    Jeff