Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    re.0 A lot of people are 'meat-hunters' who don't really get too 
    deep into the 'sporting' aspect of the hunt. (I do _not_ mean this
    as a criticism, BTW.) Many others hunt mainly for the cameraderie
    of being with friends and family, all of whom are strictly gun
    hunters. Bowhunting is a far more solitary sport, and as such, has
    limited appeal for these people. Some people don't have the time
    to master the bow. Some people don't like the limitations. Some
    few probably still feel that the bow is 'inadequate' for hunting.
    
    As for making the bow more appealing to these people, I honestly
    think that modern bows are over-engineered now. Maybe some of 
    these people could enjoy hunting with a cross-bow, but IMO that 
    weapon has no place alongside archery equipment. 
    
    dana

    Each of us has different reasons for doing or not doing something.
    I really love to bowhunt and prefer it to rifle hunting.  Not that i'll
    ever give up my rifle hunting ;^)...  However, I consider my bowhunting
    to be my "meat hunting"... It has it's own season as a means of
    harvesting does and keeping the numbers intact, and as such allows me
    to help fulfill it's intended purpose and also fill my freezer.  Should
    a buck or doe amble along, there is no question I will shoot... and 
    thats where the beauty of the sport lies... I have the choice to shoot
    either/or...  You can't eat bone, and waiting on big headgear could cost
    you an empty freezer...  Hell, mine's already empty and it's not even
    April yet.
    
    I think one of the biggest reasons for lack of bowhunters is that it's
    really for the "dyed in the wool" hunters... I'm willing to bet that out
    of that 12 or so million hunters, that over 50% hunt only 1st/2nd day,
    and don't pick up the rifle again till next year. Of the remaining 6
    million or so who do hunt more than opening day and maybe a weekend or
    two, that only 50% or so are committed enough to hunt with a bow...   
    
    heres my list of the why's...
    
    - Lack of Time.
    - Lack of success with a rifle generally leaves people thinking even 
      less chance with a bow.
    - Lack of motivation to master equipment
    - Lack of hunting skills to allow for close range shooting
    - lack of ability to shoot accurately (very small percentage)
    - equipment is inadequate to kill big game (even smaller percentage)
    - lack of appeal
    
    IMHO,  Fra
                                                                     

    
    	I've spoken with a few hunters who don't hunt with a bow.  The
    majority have said that they did not want to hit a deer and not find
    it - i.e. little confidence in the killing power of the bow.  
    
    	Another thing they didn't like was the complexity of the sport.
    You and I can talk plungers, pin sights, cat whiskers, % let-off, 
    etc.. and it's second nature.  I think some folks are intimidated 
    by it all - especially those used to throwing a few shells in the
    old 30-30 and heading out to the back 40.
    
    	Like Fra, I also consider my bowhunting to be my "meat" hunting.
    Through killing a deer with a bow in the early season, I've been able
    to hunt different areas with rifle that might allow me a greater chance 
    at a bigger buck. 
    
    	Bowhunting IMO is something that you'll either love or hate.
    
    
    - Rob

    
    
    bow hunting also has the advantage of being silent.  This will become
    more important in the future as developement and congestion pushes
    hunting zones farther away from resisdential dwellings.  
    
    I have never used a bow for hunting.  I too believe that it would take
    more time to master archery skills compared to high power rifle hunting.
    
    Am I wrong here?
    
    Gary

    re.4 The difference between bow hunting and rifle hunting are great.
    With a good rifle, almost anything within 250 - 300 yards is within 
    range. (Some will argue for greater or lesser figures. Call it an average.)
    
    With a bow, most hunters will be limited to 25 - 30 yards. Or approxi-
    mately 1 tenth the range. This means your hunting skills become far 
    more important. (Learning to shoot a rifle accurately at 300 yards is
    probably as hard as learning to shoot a bow at 30, but most shots
    are at far less than the limit of bullet effectiveness.) In bow
    hunting, seeing a deer at 75 yards is no guarantee of meat in the pot. 
    Most any rifle shooter could take a 75 yard shot for granted. With
    a rifle, still hunting is more effective, because when game is spotted,
    the need to stalk closer becomes less critical. Most bowhunting is
    done from stands. The importance of choosing a good stand location is
    probably the biggest difference between bow and rifle hunting. A
    rifle hunter is content with a spot that allows him to see a deer 
    pass by within 200 yards. A bow hunter must find a spot that brings
    the deer within 30 yards, or less in thick cover. At such ranges, his
    motions must be cautious, scent control becomes critical, camoflage is
    very important. All these things are essential to the bowhunter, but
    the rifleman is usually content to sit in the open, on the ground, 
    dresses in blaze orange, smelling of last nights cigar. A successful 
    bowhunter's knowledge of deer sensory ability, travel habits, foods, 
    cover, etc. must be more finely tuned by an order of magnitude.
    
    I love hunting with both bow and rifle, but I consider bowhunting to
    be much harder. (And being the perverse type I am, I prefer it ;-) )
    
    dana

    
      I've been bowhunting for two years now. There is "something" about 
    this sport that just hooks onto you and "takes you for a ride" so-
    to-speak :-)
    
      I've been shooting (backyard practicing) with the bow for about 5
    years now. IMO shooting a bow accurately is one of the easiest things
    to master about the sport with MODERN equipment. If you go traditional,
    well, that's another story altogether. The hard things to learn are
    range estimating, and the complete set of "bowhunting discipline" type
    rules. These include, as Dana has said, proper camoflage, cutting down
    on body odor, stand placement, the proper scents to use at the
    different times of the hunting season, proper horn rattling/grunt
    calling, etc. Also, learning about your quarrey is something that'll
    give you an advantage. Shot discipline is necessary too, like "should
    I hold the shot, or take it"? Is that deer within range? Even
    estimating whether a deer is going to hear that bow slamming taut, and
    compensating by aiming at the lower part of the chest since this is
    invaribly the deers first evasive manuever when they hear a sound that
    sends them to running...  All these things have made me, in only my
    second season of bowhunting, a fanatic of the sport!!! There is only
    ONE advantage that I can think of that bowhunters have over rifle
    hunters, and that is that the broadhead is deadly over a wider range
    of the animals body. I'm of course refering to the ham shot, which
    should NEVER be taken by a rifle hunter, yet is an extremely deadly
    shot for the bow hunter, and one that'll kill the animal quickly
    through blood loss...
    
      Another advantage that the bowhunter gets (not related to equipment,
    or ANYTHING else really :-) ...  is what I call "hunt quality". I don't
    consider seeing 10 orange coats, and hearing gunshots all around me
    as a "quality hunt" Others may disagree arguing that those folks will
    push deer into you, etc. This past year bowhunting in Pa. was a real
    treat! I watched wild turkeys roosting in the trees at dusk, had a
    very large owl swoop right over my head making "no noise" in the
    process, had rabbits walk right by me (I ground hunted all week long),
    and, I saw numerous deer up close who had no idea I was there! There
    was also something about knowing I was trying to take one of these
    magnificent creatures with a conglomeration of Magnesium (the bow
    riser), fiberglass and string, my own strength, and my ability to
    use both strength and bow skill to make the kill.  
    
      The uninitiated rifle/shotgun hunter can't imagine the satisfaction
    of just being out there with the bow in hand... 
    
    Joe

    Joe,
    
    Ditto what you said... with one exception... ;^) always room for them
    isn't there?!!?
    
    Accuracy in my opinion may be easy to master but consistancy and range
    estimation are far more important...  and that much harder to master...
    
    I know people, and watched people who could drive tacks at the range but
    lose upwards of a dozen arrows in an outing at a 3d shoot. A few guys I
    know headed down to PA and let loose 17+ shots without so much as a
    scratch...  these were guys who could score at a 3d shoot!!!
    
    I guess what i'm trying to get at is that there is a big difference
    between shooting at a range and hunting in the woods...  beside all the 
    differences in terrain features and trees and branches, and shadows and
    low light conditions, you have to contend with the deers uncanny
    ability to detect movement, and every other sensory device.  No stress 
    whatsoever!! ;^)  just like a casual shoot in the backyard!! ;^)  
    
    Mistakes that a rifleman makes (and oftentimes can get away with) at 
    300 yards regarding movement, scent, wind, noise etc... are magnified 
    100 times over when bowhunting at <30 yards.  These are mistakes which
    could cost you dearly... Believe me, I've made em all. ;^)
    
    The key to success is calm and concentration under pressure...
    
    Fra

    I believe that both reply .5 and (hold on to your hats cause this is
    almost a first) reply .6 have brought out some very good points, both
    pro and con, about bow versus rifle.  I'd just like to add my two
    cents about what I like to hunt with and why.
    
    I've hunted with a rifle, bow, shotgun, and handgun.  Of these four
    different types of hunting, there is only one that I absolutely do not
    like and that is shotgun hunting.  I enjoy rifle hunting only when the
    terrain offers potential shots exceeding 200 yards, or when I'm very
    hungry for vension and am strictly meat-for-the-pot (versus meat for
    the freezer) hunting.  All other of my serious type hunting is done
    with a handgun.
    
    When it comes to bow hunting, I'm out there more for the love of the
    woods and the enjoyment I get by just being close to nature.  The only
    real time I get serious about bow hunting is after a cold snap below
    freezing for several days.  If this happens to occur during the bow
    season and before any gun season opens, I then become a serious bow
    hunter.  There is something about dressing large game before a cold spell,
    and during warm days that really disgusts me.  I don't believe that deer
    can be properly cooled, and the meat properly cared for when deer are
    taken during warm weather (at least not to my liking).  I've passed up
    many deer (buck and doe) during bow season simply because the day was
    too warm.  So why do I bother taking a bow on these days?  Just in case
    I meet up with a monster of a buck, that's why.  My bow hunting is
    mainly a scouting trip for future handgun hunts, but I would take the
    shot if a trophy buck came in range.
    
    Just for the record, I believe that a handgun (in cartridges I would
    consider appropriate for deer) is just as hard to master for use at
    ranges to 200 yards than a bow is to master for ranges to 80 yards.
    That, however, is only my opinion since I've found the bow fairly
    easy to become proficient with (both the older recurve and the modern
    compounds).
    
    Roy...

    Fra:
    
      Oh, I hear ya on the range estimating, and I completely agree with
    you! The 3D shoots can help you improve your range estimation skills,
    but as you say, it's patience that'll help you make the best and most
    proper shots... I found that I can hit very consistantly out to 50
    yards "when I know what the range is", yet of course when that target
    is at an unknown range it becomes quite difficult (for me). I was
    tested for depth perception (a type of eye test) when I was in the
    Army, and I completely flunked it :-}  When you have 20-300 vision
    (uncorrected) you tend to, when corrected, somewhat loose 3-dimensional
    vision, which aids in range perception/estimentation. Therefore, I
    go with all the "toys of the archery trade" :-) Overdraws, light
    arrows, 70 lbs bows on up, pins/crosshairs up front and peep sight on 
    the string. It all adds up to range being a lesser consideration
    than it normally would be, which makes me a more accurate bowshooter...
    ...But, as I say, I agree with you wholeheartedly from my limited bow-
    hunting experience :-)
    
      I hear what you're saying too Roy! (believe it or not :-)  The deer
    I got this year was taken on a 65-70 degree day, and the flies were
    everywhere the moment the deer was dead!!! Thank God there was a house
    about 2 miles away which had a walkin cooler, and he actively catered
    to the deer hunters in the area. $2.00 a day was plenty of "piece of
    mind" to know that your venison would be safe.
    
      If/when the rifled shotgun barrel becomes standard gear, and legal
    gear (Mass?) to take deer with, it'll greatly enhance the shotgun as
    a deer gun. I think that the MOST undesirable thing about using a shot-
    gun for deer is inadequate sights. Also I feel that buckshot should be
    completely outlawed for use on deer. If shotguns must be used
    (populated areas) then they ain't going to go away :-) Making them a
    better deer gun is the answer, and the scoped/good rifle sighted shot-
    gun is one step. Adding the rifled barrel makes it a true 100 yard +
    deer gun, especially with the slug types that shoot best out of it!
    The BRI slug comes to mind....
    
     
    Joe

    I just got into bow hunting last year, and think that it is much more
    exciting than firearm season.  First off, you have got to be on the
    deer, it's much more challenging, and what a rush it is to go full draw
    on a deer.  I am still a "greenhorn" with only 5 years hunting
    experience, and one year on bow, and I just think that bow hunting is
    the true essence of hunting.
    
    The reason I think alot of people don't bow hunt is because; alot of
    hunters are not really properly introduced to it; down here in the
    south you have to worry about ticks, snakes, and just plain hot
    weather.  I recall a couple times I wished I was laying poolside
    instead of sitting on a tree stand.  But you have a change of heart
    when you see that deer, and you nock an arrow and go full draw.
    BTW, I am empty handed for bow season, and the best memories come from
    bowhunting.
    
    Bob
    

    
        Well to start off, I agree with alot of the replies in here, I am
    an avid bowhunter, and gun hunter. The reason alot of the gun hunters
    dont bowhunt was covered by fra, probably the biggest reason being the 
    doubtfullness of the bows ability to kill.
    
        The reason I enjoy bowhunting is that its you against 3 of the best 
    senses in the woods, it push's your abilities,knowledge,marksmanship,
    and most of all nerves to the very edge. we have all probably had the 
    loud thumping heart syndrome., I find that during the gun season its
    less exciting because of hearing shots close, and alot of times its see
    the deer, aim at the deer, push off safety, squeeze trigger, boom, deer
    is down, season over.(not always true)! 
       With bowhunting the woods are silent (no gunshots) most of the time
    the deer are not scared out of their witts, there isnt a pumpkin
    setting by every other tree. you dont realize how much your
    woodsmanship skills need honed till you spend a season bowhunting. the
    use of treestands is almost a must., the ability to make yourself
    almost scent free, stand still, move at the right times, draw at the 
    right time, and distance judgement is not something you are gonna wake
    up with tommorrow morning. I have been bowhunting for almost 15 years I
    have taken a good many deer with the bow, I have alot of knowledge of
    the sport, but I can honestly say I learn something new every year, and 
    I also make mistakes each year, but a mistake is the best lesson you
    can learn from.
    
         I also think there is a majority of guy's that dont bowhunt
    because they are afraid of heights! so they figure why waste time
    trying to shoot a deer from ground level.
    
        Well enough rambling for now,
    
                                        Happy hunting
      waiting for (can you say) gooooobbbbbbbbbbllllllllleeeeerrrr season
    
                                                    Lee
    
    

    
    The reason I don't bowhunt is simple.  Time. With a 1 1/2 year old and
    another on the way the wife would probably be-head me if I left her
    alone with the kids more than I do during rifle season.
    
    maybe some day when the time constraints loosen.
    
    Other reasons I can think of for gun hunters not bow hunting:
    
    1) Time
    2) Takes time to be a good bow shot while most hunters don't practice
       at all with a gun
    
    
    --Bob
    

    I find it more time to be good with a rifle than a bow.  Plus a bow is
    something you can practice year round in your backyard.  I think also
    with bow hunting as stated earlier, the woods are quiet.  Man, that's
    what it's all about.  SHHHHHHH! Don't glorify bow hunting anymore, we
    might get more hunters in the woods now.
    
    bob
    

    
    Well after going through the last 13 replies there's a few things that
    come to my mind. After 20+ years of putting down the bow I purchased one
    last year and am going to hunt with it this year.
    
    In 1970-71-72 we hunted with recurves mostly as that was the only tool
    available until the ultimate Whitetail-hunter by Bear Archery came to
    the market....Were they noisey!!! Anyway, scent, grunt-calls, portable-
    tree stands, rattleing, were 90% unheard of and 99% un-available to the
    market.
    
    I had a real hard time understanding why one would throw sticks at
    deer but am over that today. However, tree-stand hunting is for
    squirrals, not deer-hunters, I refuse to hunt deer from a tree, I pride
    myself to hunt them from the ground, actually tree stand hunting makes
    my knees knock to much. Other than that I'm back into the game.
    
    There's one advantage to bow hunting that everyone forgot to add and
    that's, A person who bow hunts is usally a dedicated hard-core hunter,
    unlike the gun-season I bet you would very,VERY rarely encounter or
    hear stories of slob-hunters.
    
    Rick (Just my 2cents)
    
    BTW: 1970-72 I was 15-17 years old....don't want you ladies to think
         I'm a buzzard!!!!
    

    Rick hit on the reason I like bow hunting so much.  The other folks in
    the woods are generally dedicated hunters and not your average yahoo.
    
    ...and he's right, he's not a buzzard.  Buzzards aren't that ugly!
    
    Jeff

    
    UGLY!!
    
    That's right, I've got the most ugly puss, meanest temper, temper North
    of the Merrimack River, I can out-shoot, out-run, and out jump man an
    beast, I eat night-crawlers for breakfast, deer heart for dinner, and
    bear-balls for supper. So there!!!
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Ha,ha,ha......thanks-Jeff I needed that!!!!!!
    
    Rick
    

    Does anybody bowhunt for turkey?  Any tips?
    
    bob
    

    
    
         ANSWER:  yes I have hunted them with a bow.
    
         TIP: hunt were there are many,many,many turkey's, and dont get
    dissapointed. they have super eyesight, so drawing on them is the
    hardest part of getting one.
         shoot for the butt of their wing, and if you hit the bird, get to
    it as soon as possible ( drop the bow) get ahold of the bird, watch out
    for the arrow(if it didnt go all the way through, and their beak and
    spur's, the best way to rgab them is by the feet with one hand and the
    neck by the other hand. be prepared to do some sprinting because these
    buggers are the road runners of the forest. and dont be suprised if you
    cant run it down!
    
        oh yeah; most of all have fun.
    
                                                   Lee
    

    Great information in .1-.14  In summation of the list so far:
    
    	1.  Doubts about bow's lethality
    	2.  time required for shooting proficiency
    	3.  time required for hunting proficiency
    	4.  Range estimation is critical
    	5.  Time required for preparation to go afield
    	6.  Accuracy for the average shooter
    	7.  Lack of success with rifle
    	8.  No introduction for beginner.
    
    Of the 18 replies so far, only two were by non-bow users and two were
    by new bow hunters.  Is everyone in this conference a bow hunter?  Most
    of them anyway? (90%).
    
    The AMO has spent the last 10 years trying to get the archery industry
    to target the gun hunter and it does not sound like they have done it
    well yet.
    
    I'll add my 2cw.  This season was my first successful with a bow and my
    first hunting trip in ten years.  I shot my doe at about 15 yards while
    she was looking right at me.  It took her 25 minutes to get from the
    60yd point (first spotted) to my shooting solution during which time I
    had to move from the left side to the right side of the tree (she was
    only 20yds away by then!) 
    
    Hours in my backyard came into play as the arrow went exactly where the
    pin said it would and the deer ran away as if I simply waved my arm.  I
    was just about to say SH_T, when she fell over an kicked a couple of
    times.  I felt excitement, immense sorrow (beautiful creature), worry
    about the pain of the 2312 passing through the vitals (I thought about
    how that might of felt to me!), and an intense feeling of somehow just
    passing a very important test in life.  I dressed that deer on the
    spot, threw her over my shoulder and carried her 1000yds to the car. 
    The pain of the carry out somehow was part of the dues for taking her
    life.
    
    I once survived a storm of hurricane proportions (75mph winds) in a
    sailboat.  It was a "religious" experience.  This was the second such
    but without the personal danger and I eagerly wait for next season.
    
    The strange thing is that I have taken deer with guns but always from
    100 yds+.  For some reason they don't seem to be much more than targets
    at the range at that distance.  Acutally hearing the acorn crunch in
    her jaws in another matter altogether.

    Now that I think about it...
    
    re .-1
    
    To tell you the truth, I'm kinda glad that more people don't get into
    archery! Afterall, this IS one of the "attractants" of the sport. Sol-
    itude! You certainly can't get any solitude during regular rifle
    season!
    
    So, I push the sport too, but not tooo much :-)
    
    Joe

      "wondering if the deer feels pain".
    
     I often had my doubts when folks told me that deer often don't feel 
    pain when shot with an arrow.  Then two years ago I shot a deer that
    made me re-think the possibilities.
      I shot a six pointer at a quartering away angle.  The buck was trying 
    to mount a doe at the time.  The arrow passed through the liver and one
    lung and exited out the other side.  He never knew he was hit!  After
    the shot the doe ran a couple of steps cause she heard the arrow hit
    the buck.  The buck looked a round, and then tried to mount the doe
    again.  He followed her for about a minute before he realised he didn't
    feel so hot.  He then wandered off about 100 yds and died.  I honestly
    don't think he felt any pain at all.
    
    Jeff 

    
      The deer that I arrowed in Pa. last year I'm pretty sure felt pain.
    It blatted twice while running away, and the shot hit her in the spine.
    
      I sure didn't feel too good about it either....
    
      The deer I got the year before with the muzzleloader just stood there
    after the shot looking around. I don't believe he felt anything at all,
    he probably just had the sensation of suffocating for a few seconds
    since he was nailed through both lungs... So...
    
      From my limited experience I'd say it all depends on how well you
    place your shot. I'd say that a good clean shot in the chest by either
    an arrow or bullet will cause the least amount of suffering. A
    head/neck shot (with a firearm ) is off course, the quickest-deadest!
    
      Your story was incredible!  Did it ever cross your mind to "wait"
    till the Buck/Doe encounter was over ?!?!? :-) Afterall, it might
    have been the only deer you've ever taken that died with a smile on
    his face %-}
    
    Joe

     Yea, it crossed my mind, for about a nano-second!  This was the first
    and so far only deer I've got with a bow.  It was pretty neat.  Two
    does came running across the stream with a 4pt chasing them.  Then the
    6pt came about 50 yds behind.  The 4pt took off and the 6  kept
    trying to mount the biggest doe.  He actually had his front legs off
    the ground at one point. When I shot him he was laying his head and
    neck across her back.  She jumped pretty good when she heard the arrrow
    hit.  I took a pretty good ribbing about it from my buddies.  Said I
    was a cold hearted SOB.  But I was a cold-hearted SOB with a deer!
    
    Jeff

    re:22
    
    "died with a smile on his face"
    
    
    Isn't that called "Recycling"?
    
    Rick
    

    Re. shooting a buck during the excitement of rut.
    
    I would think the meat would be kind of stout.  Was it?
    
    
    Ken

    Nope, tasted great!

    
    
        As each of us know each deer will act differently when hit, either
    with an arrow or a high power rifle bullet. the big diffence is the
    broadhead will give a super smooth, super fast laceration, which in
    alot of cases they wont feel the arrow penetrating, unless you hit a
    big bone; shoulder blade, a dead on rib hit.
    
        it kinda compares to cutting yourself shaveing., now alot of people 
    think when a deer bolts off after being hit with an arrow they are
    reacting to the arrow hitting them when in reality alot of those deer
    are  reacting from the noise of the bow or seeing the bow move or the 
    hunter move as you shoot.
    
         Of all the deer I have taken with the bow I dont think any 2 have
    acted the same, I have had them bolt off, stand there and shake, walk
    away, walk 10-15 yrds stop turn around and stand there looking at me
    (that was the worste one I ever had). 
    
       I think the bottom line is be the  best shot you can be, practice
    alot, hunt in high whitetail population areas, and pass up any less
    than ideal shots, and ALWAYS use super sharp broadheads. if you
    practice these 5 ideals you should really enjoy the great sport of 
    bowhunting.
    
    
                              Lee
    

    Re. .27, I couldn't agree with you more.  I think another reason alot
    of hunters don't bow hunt is because a rifle will put a deer down where
    it stands most of the time, and a bow won't.  When you bow hunt, there
    is no such thing as "Taking a shot".  Either you have one or you don't.
    It's all black and white.  No grey.  I have known people who will "take
    a shot" during firearm season and get "LUCKY".  I will not take a shot.
    If I have a 100% good shot, only then will I take it.  It's the least
    you can do in dispatching the animal.  I use the Buckmaster concept,
    which is "One shot".
    
    Bob >>>>>---------------> 179 days until bow season.
    

    
    
    a rifle also allows you not to be up close and personal when the
    animal expires.  Maybe the distance is a blessing for some.

    Dana re 1153.5
    
    	Well said, what it brakes down to is to be a bow hunter your have
    to have your ____ together and know what your doing, take the sport 
    seriously and know that your in their living room and act accordingly.
    Your a man after my own heart, it a pleasure to be a person that can 
    be said knows you.
    Shoot streight.
    Roger

    re.30 Hi, Roger, long time no see. Thanks for the note. Going for bear
    this spring, or are you gonna let the populations recover? ;-)
    
    dana

    Dana
    	Looking at a good area with a approx a 400-500 pounder in it plus 
    been told has large population of other bears. Hopefully I will be able
    to scout it out and get a good spot to get a good shot with my bow.
    Been told their is a very large mountain lion which has been spotted
    twice crossing the road in the same area. Thats going to nock down the
    deer population because this cat is really large. Maybe while scouting
    the area out I will be able to bet some movies of the cat. 
    take care Roger