Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

	Hay? I know they feed the deer here in Europe quite a
	bit of hay in the winter. Whether this is only for 
	winter feed I don't know (i.e. will the deer eat it
	when other food is available)?

						- Mike

    
    Bob,
    
    I probably read 2 - 3 books a week on Whitetail's and their habits.
    Maybe I can save you some money and time. Though supplemental feeding
    is becoming popular, especially in the South, I, we in the North never
    give it much thought. Anyway, as a general rule, no commercially
    produced feeds are recommended by professional biologists. Most feed
    have high salt contents and little beneficial mineral. Most clover are
    simply 10-20 year old cattle type varieties repackaged, you know those
    feed bags with a picture of a deer on them.
    
    Since whitetail are grazers as well as browsers, both woods habitat and
    supplemental plantings can be utilized and improved to provide good
    feeding habitat. Your area or lease or hunting club whatever you
    call'em down South should plant high protein food, do some select
    clear cutting, burning and so on are the best practices.
    
    Bucks while in the antler growth stage will go out of their way during
    the summer months to seek out High-Protein food...It's been proven by
    biologists that mother nature triggers a desire in a male deer to
    seek out the most high quality food during that period for antler
    development, about the middle of September they will seek out more
    browse in the hardwoods sections.
    
    Their is however a feed called "30-06 Mineral/Vitamin Supplement" from
    Imperial Clovers. They CLAIM that the 30/06 mineral......was developed
    specifically for deer. It has a lower salt content and higher in
    essential mineral content to help produce good racks. Probably over a 
    3 year period though. They claim it has a unique flavoring and scent
    agent that causes deer to begin using it almost immediately after it's
    poured onto the ground. Hmmmm????????? Maybe???/
    
    Question is how much does it take? I mean are you prepared to feed
    everyday, one deer consumes a lot of food per-day, I think that forest
    and land management is your best bet....anway good luck and keep us
    posted on results.
    
    BTW:: I tried calling the Whitetail Institute of North America to receive
    information on supplement feeding, 1-800-688-3030, but ofcourse the
    phone just rings and rings. I think it's another commercialized
    company, Don't know for sure.  Your best bet is to call your state
    Game dept and ask to speak to the deer biologist assigned. You'll be 
    SURPRISED at how willing they will be to share information with you.
    
    Again, Good-Luck!
    
    Rick
    

    Some folks I know drop loads of parsnips out for the deer in bad
    winters. I've seen 25 deer in their yard at dusk, and this in Mass.
    
    I'd consider planting clover and winter rye.

    
    Re:3
    
    I agree!  Winter-Rye is a very good plant. It's hardy and once planted
    will spread and grow from year to year.
    
    

         When we go up country in the winter we take along some 100 lb.
    bags of Horse grain (mash or pellets) from Blue Seal which they seem
    to like alot. Sometimes we don't even get it all out and they are there
    waiting.

    re.4, pardon the dumb question, but when do you plant winter rye?  If I 
    plant now, will it be there in the summer for consumption?
    
    By the way, a sprained ankle has postponed my initial feed trip for a
    couple weeks.  I plan on going out once a month up until a couple weeks
    before bow season.
    
    I am a meat hunter, so I am looking for a way to add more meat to the
    deer, the racks are optional.  You can't eat a rack.  A nice rack would
    be nice, but a good sized deer would be better.  I am interested in
    healthy deer, so no steroid type food.  There is usually a good acorn
    drop, when they're dropping.  A couple of streams meander through the
    property, and I was planning on putting my food source near the
    streams, as they are the coolest part of the property, and these
    southern summers get hot as hell.  The hardwoods end at the edge of the
    swamp, where the streams are.  So my stands are going to be
    strategically placed on the edges, and near the pine thickets.
    
    Is it a bad idea to put food in the pine thickets (bedding area)?  Just
    a thought.  Does corn have any nutritional value to the deer?  So far,
    I am getting signals of high protein low salt food; possibly planting
    winter rye, etc.
    
    bob
    

    arn't we getting dangerously close to crossing the fine line into
    baiting...  or am i missing the big picture...
    
    Fra

    I thought that "baiting" was when you plant food in specific areas, to
    harvest a deer over that area.  We are talking about a large chunk of
    land, and I am not going to hunt until september.  The food will stop
    around august, and acorns will start dropping in september timeframe.
    I plan on only bringing a camera between now and september.
    
    So, I thought baiting was programming the deer to a certain food
    source, then hunting over that source.  That is not my intention.  I
    just want my deer to "beef" up so to speak, and make sure they have
    plenty of reason to "hang around" the property instead of going
    elsewhere.
    
    any comments?                   >>>----------->    sept. 25!
    
    bob
    

    I just got off the phone with Georgia dept of fish and game, and they
    said the following.  The best thing to do down here in early fall is to
    plant a mix of crimson clover, wheat, and rye.  since I am late with
    that, they said that if I planted now, I would not get a good root
    system. 
    
    I asked them about kernal corn, high protein pellets etc, and they said
    that it was legal to do that as long as I don't hunt over it.
    
    Per the Georgia dept of fish and game, baiting is defined as hunting
    over a food source that has not sprouted from the ground:corn, wheat,
    food pellets, salt licks, etc.
    
    Legal food sources for hunting purposes are anything that has sprouted.
    I asked if it was against the law to drop corn all year, and then hunt
    the area once the corn is gone.  His response was," It is considered to
    be baiting if one single kernal of corn can be found when hunting."
    He said the best thing to do is plant a high protein clover for a good
    longtime herd management.
    
    That is what I will do.  The dfg is sending me a book on herd
    management and habitat food plot planting.  I will share any valuable
    information on this in a corresponding note.
    
    Bob         >>>---------->
    

    
    
       RE: .1
    
        Hay would be the last thing to give a deer in the winter time, the
    deer cannot digest the hay, well it has no nutritional value to them, I
    have heard and seen deer in a deer yard dead from starvation with a
    full stomach of hay.
    
         Bob if ya wanna see deer lickin their chops get some mollassis
    heat it up and pour it over a pile of field corn. they love mollassis,
     I guess they have a sweet tooth. as far as feeding the deer during the 
    summer I beieve in letting nature handle it, although its a good plan
    to plant clover or the winter wheat, or even corn and leave it stand at
    the end of the year. sometimes the wild animals will get dependant on
    the food source especially when most ofspring are born in the spring.
     
          Being that your in georgia you dont get winters like we do here
    in the northeast so winter kill isnt a big issue., but I wonder how
    many of the deer would die if we fed them food all summer then quit
    right before hunting season ( late fall early winter) I bet they would 
    die within 100yrds of where the food pile used to be.
     
         this is just something to think about, I am not saying dont do it
    but just think about the different ways of helping the animals out, and 
    remember 1 adault deer can/will eat 1 acre of corn if its available, if
    you find that hard to believe ask some of the farmers in Pa.  they have
    a serious crop damage problem there.
    
    
       Just my $.02 worth,  FWIW 
                                                          Lee
    

    I was raised on a farm in Pennsylvania, where it was nothing to see 40+
    deer in our fields in early morning.  From what I've seen and heard
    from the surrounding farmers, this business of deer crop is extremely
    exaggerated by many farmers.  I believe the main reason for this is
    that farmers are permitted to harvest animals that are damaging their
    crops (by Pennsylvania law), and this gives them an excuse to put a
    little extra vension on the table.  You have farmers that are good to
    wildlife and you have ones that aren't.  Unfortunately you typically
    hear only from those that like to blame the wildlife for their own poor
    farming practices, or those that want to use damage as an excuse to
    harvest a little extra game.
    
    If I was going to supply supplementary food for the deer herd, I'd be
    sure to supply it all year round.  Since deer seem to change their
    dietary needs with the weather, determining what is the proper food to
    supply at given time of the year is not a simple task.  In other words,
    what is good for the summer months is not necessarily what is needed
    during the winter months (I'm mainly talking from a northern states
    point of view where the winters are cold the seasonal changes
    drastically affect the normal plant life).
    
    I would much prefer to plant food crops so that these crops can go
    through their normal life cycle, providing the animals with more of the
    normal variations in food that they are accustomed.
    
    Corn, however, appears to be a very good supplemental food for deer
    during the cold northern winter months.  We used to, and I think my Dad
    still does, put out corn all winter long in a couple different
    locations.  Cobbed corn is the best for this if you can construct a
    feeder, that is placed above the ground, in which to place the corn. 
    This helps to assure that a minimal amount of corn goes to waste from
    rot.   Corn, however, is not the cheapest thing around and unless
    supplied all winter long could possibly do more harm than good to the
    herd.  We raised corn, so this was not a problem for us.
    
    Incidentally while on the subject of farmer practices, most of the
    farmers around our area did not completely harvest the crops near the
    edges of their fields.  In addition, the air flow in most combines was
    adjusted a little towards the heavy side which resulted in some grain
    being blown out with the chaff.  This is one way many wildlife minded
    farmers give a little back.
    
    Roy...
    
    
    

RE:      <<< Note 1151.10 by UNYEM::GEIBELL "IN SEARCH OF ELUSIVE SALMON" >>>

>>        Hay would be the last thing to give a deer in the winter time, the
>>    deer cannot digest the hay, well it has no nutritional value to them, I
>>    have heard and seen deer in a deer yard dead from starvation with a
>>    full stomach of hay.
	
	Lee, this is interesting, if contrary to what I had previously
	believed. Granted, this was primarily based upon observations
	of adopted pratices in Europe, where feeding deer during winter
	is a much more common occurrence than in the States. When you
	find deer feeding locations (for lack of a better term) here in 
	Europe, 9 times out of 10 they will take the form of hay racks.

	I have observed the deer in the Kongelige Dyrehave (Royal Deer-
	garden) north of Copenhagen, Denmark being fed hay in the winter.
	The Deergarden is a recreational area left between the city and
	its outskirts, it harbours large numbers of Red, Fallow, Sika
	and Roe deer, much larger population than the relatively small
	area can support naturally. So, they feed the deer in the winter.
	Btw, if you ever make it to Denmark (of all places :-) the
	Deergarden is a fun place to spend an autumn day. You can see
	the Red stags sparring and enjoy the sight of some truely outstanding
	racks. The Red deer develops a crown to its antlers as it matures
	- a collection of min. 3 points at the very top of the antler. 
	In my humble opinion, this European/Asian cousin of the Wapiti
	takes the first place in the world for beautiful deer antlers -
	if not as large or as majestic an animal as the Wapiti. Btw, the crown
	to the red deers antler has provide them their Danish name:
	"Crown deer" - cute eh :-).

	So after having read your statement about hay having no nutritional
	value to deer, I was wondering what this was all about? Could "this
	Lee guy" :-) be telling me a story, or were the deer in Europe truely
	getting through winter on a song and a dance? I needed some sources!

	I have a fairly limited library when it comes to deer biology,
	but maybe some of the books would give me a hint anyway. Let
	me say from the outset, that I found no explicit statement refuting
	what you had said, i.e. nowhere did I find the statement: "hay
	*does* have nutritional value for deer". Mind you, finding a 
	statement worded exactly like would perhaps have been a bit 
	much to expect! So let me tell you what I did find.

	My sources are as follows: 

	(1) "Vor und Nach der J�gerpr�fung" (Before and after the Hunting 
	Exam), Herbert Krebs, Publisher: BLV Germany. This is a book
	used by all the German speaking countries in their rigorous
	education of new hunters. 

	(2) "Den nye j�ger" (The new Hunter) published by Milj�ministeriet 
	and Skov- og Naturstyrelsen Denmark (Environmental Agency and Wood- 
	and Natureoffice). This is the official text in the Danish education
	of new hunters.

	(3) "Complete Guide to Game Animals" Leonard Lee Rue III, published
	by Outdoor Life Books, US.

	I learned that all deer belong to the family Cervidae (1,3), that all
	members of this family are "ruminants"(1,3) (i.e. having a four-
	compartmented stomach, regurgitating their food to rechew it (3),
	sorry if this is all obvious, I'm just trying to be thorough).
	The Whitetailed Deer of North America (Odocoileus virginianus)
	- which this dicussion was originally about - and the Mule Deer 
	(O. hemionus) are close cousins of the European Roe Deer (1)
	(Capreolus capreolus) insofar as they belong to the same sub-division
	of the Cervidae family which (1) names "Trug- or New-World deer"
	(Trug = something like false or illusion in German). Another
	member of this subdivision of the deer family is the North American
	Moose (the European Elch, Elg or however you choose to spell it).
	The other sub-family to Cervidae (1) calls "True- or Old-World deer",
	it has members such as Red, Fallow, Sika deer and - presumably - the
	Asian and North American Wapiti.

	Both (1) and (2) - being European books - consider the issue of
	feeding deer in winter. (2) states: (my inadequate translation, 
	I'll enter the original text if you are interested) "Normally the 
	roedeer will be capable of getting through the winter without 
	additional feeding. If, during particularly hard periods, you 
	want to help the roedeer, this can take place by supplying hay,
	beets (turnips?) and possibly feed concentrates ... "

	(1) states: "Which feed types are suited for the roedeer as
	winter feed? As 'rough-feed' (Rauhfutter) good clover-hay,
	foilage-hay (Laubheu), or oats in entire sheafs; as feed
	concentrates: threshed oats, corn (as addition), industrial
	food pellets, acorns; as 'juice-feed' (Saftfutter): beets, 
	potatoes... ". (1) also states "rough-feed, feed concentrates 
	and 'juice-feed'" should be used for winter feed for Red deer,
	and states that "due to the differences in feeding habits, 
	rough-feed (hay and 'Grummet' - I can't translate Grummet)
	plays a greater role by red deer as feed basis."

	So if I'm to believe my sources (and I see no reason not to),
	hay is the suggested basis for any of the proposed winter
	feed mixtures. I would not expect this to be the case if hay
	was nutritionally worthless to the deer. Furthermore, given 
	the (at least) similar digestive systems encountered in the 
	members of family Cervidae, I find it hard to believe that 
	the North American cousins of our European deer should be so
	different that they can find no nutritional value in feed 
	on which European deer seem to do OK.

	So, Lee, what gives? Am I off my mark here??

							- Mike

RE: feeding hay

deer can not digest bailed hay.  sure they will eat it.  it will cause them
to bloat and later die if enough is eaten.  they need the processed pellets
that are make from clover and alfalfa.  I would have to look real hard for 
the articles in Colo Outdoors about the feeding programs, but they went into
great detail about deer eating dried hay and its adverse effects on them.
elk can handle it just fine.  deer need to eat the green copy.

             There are different types of hay.  Being an owner
    of horses, I know and believe me they are priced accordingly
    too!  If you are speaking of hay cubes, the only difference
    between those and regular hay is that the hay is cut and com-
    pressed into cubes.  We feed an old pony those because he can't
    chew like he used to.  
             Starvation is natures way of thinning out the weak and
    although it may seem cruel to all animals, not just deer, I have
    to believe that it is an intricate part of nature.  Many other
    animals benefit from the fallen and I think in many cases, mans
    intervention makes things worse not better.  
    
                Just my $.02.......                    
                       Bob

    We have had a starvation problem with the deer in the eastern part of
    the state (Oregon) for the last few years.  To the point where all
    hunting in that area is by permit only.  Unfortunately, that is where
    my land is and I have to apply for a landowners permit every year. 
    But, that is another point.  The way it was explained to me by the F&G
    is: By the time the feed is brought to the deer, some are too weak to
    digest the "hay".  Their usual diet is fresh, green ruffage and is
    easier for them to handle.  It seems the energy required to adapt to
    the new food is not there, so some of the deer die with full stomachs.
    The solution would be to start feeding earlier to allow them time to
    adapt, but this strikes of messing around with mother nature.  
    
    The question each year is, "Should they be fed at all?"  
    
    
    
    Ken                                                    

RE:  <<< Note 1151.14 by SALEM::ALLORE "All I want is ONE shot..well maybe 2" >>>
                     -< Let nature take it's course..... >-

>             There are different types of hay.  Being an owner
>    of horses, I know and believe me they are priced accordingly
>    too!  If you are speaking of hay cubes, the only difference
>    between those and regular hay is that the hay is cut and com-
>    pressed into cubes.  We feed an old pony those because he can't
>    chew like he used to.  

I didn't just fall off the hay wagon either, I was raised on a very large
farm.  I said that I would research my info and report back.  A call to the DOW
was in order.  Yes, deer can eat dried hay, clover, or alfalfa without any
problems IF they are not under stress and it is slowly introduced to them.
In the winter of the year they are under stress.  That stress reduces the 
bacteria in their stomach to help digest hay, grass hay in particular.  The 
undigested food will block the intestion and cause the bloating.  They bloat 
they get sick, they get sick they don't eat, they don't eat they die.  The 
green copy of hay has moisture in it that helps the stomach bacteria grow and 
help digest.  If deer are to be feed dried hay, they should be slowly 
introduced to it before it is their main diet.  The pellets, not hay cubes, 
that I was talking about, were developed by Coors.  They consisted of brew 
making materials, hops, yeast, corn, molasses, and alfalfa.  These things 
helped with the stomach bacteria problem.

Another nit.  Whole kernel corn is not easily digested, even by humans. 
We always feed cracked corn to livestock.  Thats also why some states outlaw 
corn for fish bait.

>             Starvation is natures way of thinning out the weak and
>    although it may seem cruel to all animals, not just deer, I have
>    to believe that it is an intricate part of nature.  Many other
>    animals benefit from the fallen and I think in many cases, mans
>    intervention makes things worse not better.  
    
Natural starvation is fine, but human introduced starvation is not.  My
question to you is:  If you provide a food supply that the deer come to depend 
upon and grow a large herd, and then you for what ever reason can not
supply that food source one year what happens?  Think about your statement
above.

           Here I go again.....First of all, I wasn't the one
    who was talking about feeding the deer.  Second, I was just
    pointing out that hay and hay cubes, which is what I thought
    you were talking about, were the same thing.  Notice I said,
    'IF you are speaking of hay cubes'?  Third, my statement about 
    starvation stands.  Man sometimes, with all our good intentions,
    does more damage then good.  I do believe in proper game manage-
    ment ie; seasons, bag limits etc.  But I DO NOT believe in feeding 
    to the point of dependency.  
    	   We feed our horses hay mainly just for ruffage(sp?) and 
    to give them something to munch on in their stalls at night.  The
    main feed to help them grow muscle and keep fit could be trotter 
    (pellet feed) or a good grain.  We will sometimes mix a bag of corn
    in with the pellets during the winter months because it helps them 
    produce body heat (warmth).  So corn does have it's benefits, but
    I'm sure no-one wants to here about this so.........
           Back onto the read-only wagon again.......and I'll try not
    to fall off this time. 
    
    
                Enough said,
    
                    Bob 

    
    If it makes you feel good to go out and feed the deer, by all means do
    it.  This nonsense about deer becomming dependent upon the food you
    supply is just that, NONSENSE.  I seriously doubt that anyone working
    here at Digital has enough money to supply enough food for deer to
    become dependent upon it to the point where it will cause an increase
    in population and/or affect their ability to find sufficient natural
    foods when you can no longer supply the additional food.
    
    Deer are not small animals like birds who only require a very small
    amount of food per day.  I don't know what the actual requirement (by
    weight) of a deer per day, but it definitely is more than a bushel of
    corn per week or a couple bales of hay per week.
    
    One good thing about supplemental feeding is that while the deer are
    eating the food you supply, they're not consumming the natural fodder
    that they would normally be eating.  This should help them with at
    least a couple meals during the winter months when food is scarce.
    I don't believe, however, that a few extra decent meals during the hard
    winter months is going to change the deer population by any substantial
    amount, if at all.  It would simply make the deer somewhat healthier.
    
    Incidentally, there are many trains of thought about the feeding of hay
    to deer.  My Dad, a farmer, works closely with the Pennsylvania game
    commision.  The Pa. Game Commission encourages farmers to leave a
    little of their crops for the animals and to leave extra bales of hay
    in the fields (actually the big rolls of hay are preferred).  It also
    has a program of suppling land owners (who open their land to the
    public for hunting) with plants and trees to plant so as to provide
    natural habitat and fodder for the deer and other game animals.
    
    Just for the record, it was the Pa. Game Commission that recommended to
    us to use unshelled corn in deer feeders versus cracked corn.  Deer,
    turkey, pheasant, etc., have a digestive system that is able to break
    down the corn much better than the human digestive system.
    
    Roy...
    

    >Deer,
    >turkey, pheasant, etc., have a digestive system that is able to break
    >down the corn much better than the human digestive system.
    
	humans don't have gizzards and I've yet to see a deer with one.

	anyway, it seems that the game biologist in different parts of
	the country have different ideas on what to and not to feed
	wildlife.   but, they do seem to agree that wildlife should
	fend for themself and encourage that idea by instructing farmers
	to leave some grain behind, cover uncut, and planting new cover.    

    Don't recall saying that deer have gizzards.  Anything that has strong
    enough gastric guices to break down buds, and new growth on hardwood
    plants, is more than likely able to do a number on corn and other such
    grains.
    
    Leaving baled hay in the fields is no different than someone else
    placing bales in the fields, now is there?
    
    The Pa. Game Commmission has a wildlife refuge near Penn State
    (actually I believe it is really run by Penn State University versus
    the Game Commission) that feeds the deer some field corn on the cob.  I
    have seen it there on visits to this area.  I will make it a point to
    ask my Dad talk to his game management friend to get Pa.'s educated
    opinion on this matter.
    
    Roy...

    
    
       Regarding my note about the hay, I should of been more clear on the 
    issue, hay in the dry stage (ie what you would store in the barn). it 
    would probably be fine to put out green hay. you also have to remember
    that the dry hay will make the deer thirsty also. and sometimes water
    is hard for them to get at.
       I am sure that if you have suplimental food, corn,oats to mix with
    the hay it would probably be ok.  
    
       In response to the reply about starvation weeding out the weak
    animals, this is true, but you also have to remember that an animal
    that is strong and healthy in nov. may be week enough to succomb to
    mother nature by feb.
    
         I agree with feeding of deer in the winter in what we call deer
    wintering yards. our camp used to take corn into the mountains of
    northern Pa. back in the late 70's and have done so ever since, it was 
    amazing that when we would pull up to the feeder on the snowmobile the 
    deer and turkeys would stand right there and before we were back on the 
    machines they were at the feeder. so animals will associate an
    unnatural sound to food after several trips, and they tend to get non
    human shy when the realize you are bringing them food.
         on an average winter we would drop about 60-80 bushel of corn, and 
    since I lived on a farm it really wasnt missed, we also left 5 rows on
    each edge of our fields for cover and food for the local animals.
    
    
                                                          Lee
    

    
    	I disagree with regards to deer yard feeding, mainly because of
    what I've read in Whitetail biology and management books.  At the point
    where one needs to supplement deer food, the yarding areas for the deer
    would not sustain the current population.  By feeding deer through the
    winter in these areas, we are increasing the population so to speak,
    because those deer that would have died will now live and mother/father
    new young.  Habitat takes a while to come back, so it is unlikely that
    the yard would be able to support an ever increasing herd if another
    bad winter followed.
    
    	My personal recommendation and opinion is that if you choose to 
    feed deer during the yarding period, plan on doing it for several 
    years, and also plan to improve the habitat of the yard through cutting
    strips in the softwood stands to allow browse regrowth.  White cedar
    is a whitetails favorite winter yarding food here in the northeast.
    They get more nutrition from that than any other type of softwood.
    Plant some white cedar.  Red cedar is not as good.
    
    	BTW, I also understand that feeding hay to whitetails during the
    winter months is pretty much useless.  Reason being is that a deers
    digestive system bacteria is different in winter than summer.  Bacteria
    suitable for digestion of woody browse is prevalent during the winter.
    And the bacteria needed to digest grasses is is most prevalent during
    the summer.  Because of this, as someone else in here has suggested,
    the hay basically causes the deer to clog up and bloat.
    
    	- Rob

    Personally I agree with Rob, and a few others... leave them alone and
    lets not try to play God.  I've also heard that hay is pretty much
    useless during the winter months... not so much from lack of
    nutritional value, but because of the time frame necessary to change
    over to other foods...  Something to the effect of them needing approx
    2 weeks to slowly transfer to other food types... this in addition to 
    what the others have stated regarding digestional mechanics... 
    
    If you must interfere, then plant something that will help supplement
    their diet...  something that will produce an annual crop they can come
    to depend on... (i.e. apples, oaks, ceder, corn, clover, etc...)  leave
    a few rows of standing corn each fall... 
    
    plant a garden!! ;^)  my neighbor will be more than happy to tell ya
    what the group of 3 bucks and 3 does ate outa his this year...  they
    cleaned out his chives (100-150 sq. ft. worth) in late fall (nov/dec) 
    in one night...  That was of course after they ate every apple off of
    his trees before october arrived...
    
    I don't buy this delivery stuff (be it grain, pellets, corn, etc)... 
    large quantities or not, if they should come to depend on it and 
    suddenly it ain't there, then thats when the $h*t flies... 
    Now it's too late for them to transfer over to other food 
    items which their digestive capabilities are currently not geared 
    to break down... thats when you find dead bloated deer within a 
    stones throw of baled hay...
    
    FWIW, Fra