Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    My immediate need is to discourage a new bad habit, well, not
    entirely new. Last year she all of a sudden wouldn't return
    to me with the dummy. She would would stay about 5-15 yards
    away from me and just run around. I used a check cord and
    over a period of time got her to come right in. She is now 
    doing the same thing again. This time it is farther out and
    I know she knows better. (she has also been force broken to 
    fetch) She is 20 months old.
    
    I've started with the check cord again, but would really like
    to be able to correct this the first sign she has "her own plan"
    when she is a hundered yards out.
        
    I would also like to use it when training on a regular basis.

    What range is reasonable? I am interested in training to hunt and
    hunting tests. Some range up to 1 mile, that seems a bit 
    extreme for a retriever..... but I'm new to this.
    
    Thanks for the help,
    Michael
    

     A little dog psychology might be in order, maybe (?). 
    Try running away from them the moment you see them
    getting sticky. Let them chase you and take the dummy as
    they make a close pass. Although it gets a little old, praise
    the heck out of them often on a retrieve. Also its easy
    to confuse a dog if not training in dog think. By this
    I mean, on higher level stuff its easy to get so use to
    the actual retrieve that we yell at them for some minor
    infraction on the way back and then they get confused as
    why we are all the sudden yelling at them for bringing it 
    back. A more serious example would be the yahoo whose dog
    runs away, he yells after it COME HERE, COME HERE etc..
    after a little while the dog finally comes here (a correct action)
    and then gets punished. A wise dog owner will still praise the
    dog even though he "fills like killing the b***ard. In the example
    of the yahoo, his dog will by confusion only get worse. I had a
    strong headed male that required a 3/8" marble from a slingshot
    in the hindquarters to inforce the "I only say come here once".
    Many training problems can be resolved by patience and making
    sure that your training is 'logical to the dog'. 
      A great trick I learned for teaching my dogs to stay close
    (for pheasants etc.) was to hide from them during walks when
    they got out in front a bit. The panic instilled in them the
    need to stay close (incase I should all the sudden hide they
    could find me quick). Also makes them keep a closer eye on
    me and the direction I am going. The boredom as a result of
    their WANTING to stay close makes them want to quarter. Just
    add pheasants! Repeat the hiding trick often to re-inforce
    the temporary ownerless panic feeling :^) . This beats the heck
    out of forceful quartering training and all the hassle, and 
    makes a more enjoyable hunting dog.
     Hope my ideas were more informative than preechy. Good luck.
    Let me know if I can help you on any other training procedures.
    
    Chuck (who's trained 3 labs)

     To clarify the previous note: use the running away method
    and keep running as they get close and bend down (while running)
    and take the dummy, stop and praise (the dog. if problem was
    really serious you can praise the lord too :^) ). If dogs start
    developing problems it often helps to go back a level or two.
     Maybe a little more fun and excitement is in order to bring
    back the enthusiasm, then add the control back in (steadiness etc).  
      The hard headed male I refered to was as a result of some improper
    training (along with strong need to establish territory). I
    considered the collar to until I seen the cost. I had to use the
    slingshot only a couple times to break the challenge to my athority.
    You can use this if above method does not work. Make sure you can
    shoot accurately (practice), and the the dog is facing away. NO
    WRISTROCKETS. They quickly learn you still have control whether
    or not on lead. Also they would know it does'nt make a difference
    whether or not a collar is on. A heck of a lot cheaper too. I
    got the slingshot method out of a dog training book, and it works!
      Above all it is always better to use praise (natural desire to
    please you) than forceful methods (although occasionally neccesary).
    The ultimate is using a little dog psychology to arrive at your goal
    saving a lot of effort and time. Seems your 2nd, 3rd etc dogs are
    always better hunters than the 1st, with less training....humm 
    guess they train us too ;^)  .
    
    chuck 

      One good method to break this habit is to limit the retrieves.  Some
    dogs get bored if you work them on too many retreives at once.  if the
    dog starts to "give you the paw" on a retrieve, run out there and give
    him hell.  Then quit for the day, and the next day.  Let him watch you
    run another dog in his place.  This can work well to straighten them
    out.  
      Re slingshots.  Make sure you can hit what you aim at.  A marble can 
    do damage to eyes and joints.  I know of a pro who trains for field
    trials that took an eye out of a golden with a slingshot.  The dog
    turned at just the wrong moment.

    Re Moderator
    
        Thanks and sorry for starting a discussion in the WANT
        note.

    Re .2 & .3 
    
        Thanks for the suggestions, what you described (minus the 
        sling shot) is what I had done last year and have just
        started doing again. The problem is not on short retrieves (20-30
        yards) or on a check cord she does just fine, great in fact.
        She knows I can get out there and get on her butt, she
        knows the difference.
        
        Someone I train with had made a similar suggestion with a sling
        shot, I was reluctant for the same reason mentioned in re .4.
        and I know I couldn't shot one 75-100 yards.
        
        I also agree that I have made several mistakes in training
        and have learned a lot in the past 18 months. I'm also
        confident, as you mentioned, that my next gundog will train
        easier because of what I have learned. ( I hope so anyway )
        
        As you mentioned when training your first dog, I feel that it 
        will only take a few corrections from a distance to convince her 
        I can still make corrections from a distance. I also haven't
        done much handling, where I think an electronic collar could 
        be effective also.
        
    re .4 
    
        I have on several occasions, more recently, high tailed it out 
        there and got on her. Afterward made her stand and honor for the 
        other dogs being trained. On one occasion I startled the group I 
        was training with and my dog by kicking off my shoes and swimming 
        out to her and pushing her under once or twice and dragged her
        butt back to shore. Boy was she surprised. 
        
        I only have the one dog so have not been able to train another 
        dog while she looks on.        


    After looking at my options for sometime I think that an electronic
    training collar would be the most safe and effective way to make
    corrections from a good distance.
    
    What range is reasonable for a collar setup? (hunting & hunting tests)
    
    Are the buzzer then corrections collars effective, 
    more effective then others?

    Is purchasing a used one reasonable? (price and condition)

    Has anyone purchased on from THE COLLAR CLINIC?
    
    Thanks for all the help.
    Michael
    

    Mike,
    
      I've got the Tritronics with the red, green, and yellow buttons.
    I have used the warning button.  It works. Gives you the option of
    not frying the dog, but still making the correction.  The normal 
    range should be good for your needs.  It will reach out a couple of 
    hundred yards.  I _think_ the extended range is mor for hounds that may
    be waaaaaaaaaaaaay out there.  Give Tritronics a call and see what they
    recommend.
    
    Jeff

    
    
    RE: .5
      No problem with your original note. It's just that I could see a
    possible debate starting, to shock or not to shock.
    
      Most of the training books I've read suggest not using electronic
    collars, that they are not really necessary and can do more harm than
    good.  Their reasoning, I believe, is that if you're reading a book on
    how to train dogs you're probably an amature that will make mistakes
    and the shock collar makes it too easy to severly punnish a dog at the
    wrong time.  On the other hand a shock collar may be the fastest way to
    get good results for a professional trainer who really knows how a dog
    thinks.  
    
       I'm strictly an amature and I know that I make mistakes so I decided
    to not use a shock collar.
    
       I have the same problem you do regarding making a rebelling dog
    watch while I train another dog, I only have one.  So what I do is to
    lock up my pup and toss a bumper around and go get it my self for a
    while then let the pup out and he almost always improves %100.
    
    
    Good Luck
    Chuck

     Yea, I'll definately agree that 'competition' from
    other dogs is definately a high motivator. Seems they 
    get into a match to win the most praise. This seems 
    to be the case even with separate handlers/dogs. 
    Training is most enjoyable taking turns with a buddy  
    handling/helping anyways. Correction by putting the 
    offender in the car (or tied up), and watching the 
    'good' dog work for a while, can be quite effective.
    The competition factor is especially pronounced between
    two or more dogs with same owner. 
      I think the most important factor in dog training is
    to make everything as 'black and white' and simple as
    possible. High level training is achieved by stacking
    simple elements into more complex ones (like in the case
    of handling dogs by hand signals). It is very important
    not to confuse the dog to the point of frustration and
    apathy. Dogs have a very strong desire to please you,
    if they can only figure out what it is you want.
    
    chuck

    RE: .7

        I really didn't want to get into a debate over using an
    electronic collar either. I do appreciate any tips or advice
    I can get, it all helps, it may or may not work for your dog
    or current situation but it is good to keep in your tool kit.
    
>       I have the same problem you do regarding making a rebelling dog
>    watch while I train another dog, I only have one.  So what I do is to
>    lock up my pup and toss a bumper around and go get it my self for a
>    while then let the pup out and he almost always improves %100.
    
        This is a good idea, I'll definitely try this tonight. I do
    everytime we train, I train a lot a lone, I throw a few that I
    retrieve, mostly to help with honoring and being steady.
        
        Thanks,
        Michael

    Hey if either of you guys who retrieve in front of your dogs arn't busy
    this fall, I know a guy who owns a springer that wants to go duck
    hunting but can't get his dog in the water.  Mayby you guys could bring
    your wetsuits and give him a hand?  
    
    Jeff

    Just recieved the price list from the COLLAR CLINIC, there
    prices on new collars are comparable to those in Dunns,
    Gander Mountain etc. They have very resonable prices on
    reconditioned collars.
    
    There number is (616) 947-2010.
    
    Michael