Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    I believe in Colorado per the regs the 50 cal falls under
    the minimum cal allowed for elk, deer may be a different
    story. I don't know what the minimum is, but I seem to 
    remember a  freind of mine (black powder lover) saying he
    could'nt use his 50 cal to hunt elk he had to use the bigger
    one.
    
    chuck
    

>>                     <<< Note 1009.1 by COMPLX::BULLARD >>>

    chuck,

	I just called the local branch office of the Colorado
	DOW (in the Springs, that is), and the requirement is
	50 caliber.  Also, that coincides with what I remember
	reading.

	However, I did read one of the hunting rags recently (can't
	remember which one) which had an article stating the
	the minimum was 54 caliber.  I wonder if this is where
	your friend got the information.  I remember questioning
	this when I read it, as I was under the impression that
	the minimum was 50.

	Anyway, the nice lady at the DOW confirmed that 50 is the
	minimum.
    
	Jerry

     Thanks, for checking that out. Yea, I seem to remember 
    reading something that said 54 caliber, and also my black
    powder friend saying that too. I'll let him know of the
    misprint, although he'll probably still use the larger 
    caliber (54 or 60 caliber ??).
    
    chuck

    
    
    If it's legal to use a 50cal, tell your friend there's no problem to
    knocking down a elk. What he shoul find out is what is the range of
    popwder load (examp:: min - max) that he could saftly shoot from
    his/her gun and what's the ballistics for each load.
    
    I happen to shoot a T/C 54cal Renegade and use 100 grains of FFG, some
    folks use 110 and some 90, you see what I'm saying?
    
    Rick
    

    
    
    T/C also make a .58cal model.....
    
    		just saw it in North American Hunter...

    
    RE:5
    
    
    Is the 58 rifled or smoothbore?
    
    Rick
    

    re:6
    
    
    	Don't know if it's rifle or smoothbore....I would think it's
    rifled, but I've been wrong before! :*) 
    
    	I looks just like the .50cal renegade.....
    
    
    						jim s.

The 58 is rifled. Just when I thought I was happy with a 50 they come out with
a 58............8^(

sjn

Just stumbled across this notes file so this reply is a little late but may
still help someone out now or in the future.

I shoot a T/C 50cal Renegade and would use it for elk.  However, I have a LOT
of respect for the punishment an elk can take and sometimes wonder if the
50cal is right at if not below the minimum for a large animal like elk.
Both the 50 and 54 cal are in the neighbor hood of the 30-30.  Would you go
hunting elk with a 30-30??

-.4 made a good point.  Find out the range and ballistics for your gun, that
also includes your capability.  I have added a ballistics chart at the end of
this note for 50 and 54 calibers.  It can give you some idea about the 
performance differences between the two calibers.   The book I took it from
states "at specific ranges some charges (usually the lighter ones) give better
accuracy than other".  Thus you "might" have to give up some accuracy for
higher velocity and energy.

My opinion on the max range for a clean kill is in the neighborhood of 100yds.
Past that, I begin to wonder if "all" blackpowder calibers are beginning to
lose the punch necessary to provide sufficient shock damage to make an animal
want to lay down before running off to the next county.  If you can hit one in
the boiler room, it will go down - sometime.  The farther off you are, the
better tracker you had better be!

My advice is to take your gun and go have some fun.  Try several different
loads at different ranges.  Try different brands of balls, use pyrodex and
black powder.  Find the load that gives you the accuracy you can live with,
then practice - the accuracy may improve, grouping and distance.  I think the
money invested in practice would outway the price of a new .54 barrel and
additional support items.  Moving to a .54 is not like moving from a 30-30 to
an '06 or 7mm, I don't believe you are gaining that much punch for the money.

From my plinking around experience - my 50cal seems to group round balls
pretty much the same at any load, but then I'm not a great shot anyway,
especially with open sites.  But I do get a bit closer group at 70 grains.  I
started playing with maxi balls and found the higher loads give better
accuracy.  I couldn't get maxis to group for squat with the 80 and 90 grains I
was using while trying to "just to get a feel" for how they shot compared to
round balls.  Finally decided to take the extra punishment and loaded in 100
grains.  At 50 yds that load put out 3 rounds that a quarter would cover, and 
a 4th one was still cutting the quarter.  That made me happy and I moved
to 100yds.  Let's just say "I" still can't shoot maxis, at least not at that
range, and round balls are not much better.

As far as using the maxi balls.... I think I'm going to stick with the round
balls.  The chart below shows that, for a hunting load (say 100gr.), the round
ball gives more energy than the maxi.  And, if I can accurately shoot a round
ball with 110 grains then I'm not being too far out done by the 54cal.  (There
is also the possibility that after some distance, due to the various forces,
the 50cal could be out performing the 54cal).  Wish I could lay my hands on
some ballistics info for 50, 100 and 150 yds.

Enough of my opinions, let's see what the "experts" came up with.

  ***************************************************************************

Ballistic performance (taken without permission) from Shooting Black Powder
Guns by Thompson/Center Arms.

(THESE CHARGES REPRESENT A RANGE OF OPTIMUM EFFICIENCY WHICH WE FEEL IS PROPER
 FOR OUR FIREARMS.  HEAVIER LOADS SHOULD NOT BE USED....and other warnings.)

                 .50 CAL.                  .54 CAL.
GR.           ROUND     MAXI.           ROUND    MAXI.
FFG           BALL      BALL            BALL     BALL
              175gr     370gr           230gr    430gr
---           -----     -----           -----    -----
50	MV... 1357	
	ME...  761			

60	MV... 1434			1263
	ME...  850			 815

70	MV... 1643			1469
	ME... 1115			1102
			
80	MV... 1838	1271		1654
	ME... 1396	1328		1397

90	MV... 1950	1344		1761	1263
	ME... 1571	1484		1584	1523

100	MV... 2052	1418		1855	1345
	ME... 1739	1652		1758	1728

110	MV... 2135			1931	1428
	ME... 1883			1905	1948

120	MV...				1983	1499
	ME...				2009	2146


Notes:
MV = Muzzle velocity (Ft/Sec.)
ME = Muzzle Energy (Ft. Lbs.)

Column area blank where no data supplied (too light?? / TOO MUCH PRESSURE??).
Test figures obtained using DuPont Black Powder in 28" T/C Hawken Barrel.

Some other interesting (safety) info:
Tests in .45 and .50 cal. Hawken barrel using a ROUND BALL with increments
ranging from 65 to 125 grains black powder showed:

1. Increases in powder charge did increase pressure readings.  At no time
   was there an indication of a leveling off of pressure.

2. 70 grains gave highest velocity in relation to lowest pressure.  Heavier
   loads showed marked increases in pressure with minor gains in velocity.

3. Loads in this optimum range were far more consistant. 

4. (just for fyi) 70 grains in the .45 cal. produced a pressure peak
   reading of approximately 6600 P.S.I.  (info from graph)

    Do you have any info on terminal velocity between the round and
    Maxi balls at various distances?  That would be my deciding factor
    rather than the M.V. or M.E. (assuming the rifle is zeroed for that
    range for both loads since I'd expect the ballistics to diverge
    quite a bit as the range increases).

	Mike (.50 T/C Renegade)

    
    
      Not having ever hunted Elk, I couldn't say 100% (a completely
    "educated" opinion) that the 50 cal T/C's are OK for this type of
    hunting. Yet, I've seen the damage on two occasions that a 50 cal
    buffalo bullet does on deer. In my very humble opinion, you have
    plenty of smack in a 50 caliber for an Elk if you're using the Maxi,
    Maxi hunter, or the Buffalo/Hornady type bullets. A roundball may
    not punch through to the vitals "as well" as the conicals...
    
      For ballistics tables on blackpowder loads, get the "Lyman
    Blackpowder Manual". This has extremely valuable information on
    ALL blackpowder rifle and revolver loadings...
    
      Since taking a deer with a 58 cal rifle a couple of years ago, and
    since getting into archery (and taking a deer with the bow), my
    thoughts have changed on "just what it takes" to quickly and reliably
    kill big game. Granted, an Elk is MUCH larger than a deer, yet what
    is it that kills them? Simply put, a large hole in a vital organ will
    put one down, and that's that!  The deer I took with the 58 cal was
    taken with a 260 gr roundball going at about 1000 fps when it hit the
    deer. It went completely through. The deer didn't bolt or hunch up; he
    just stood there for about 10 seconds then mosey'd away from me. He 
    walked about 10 yards away, then fell over dead. Certainly the "shock"
    of the shot didn't put him down like it would have IF I'd have hit him
    with an '06 or something. Yet, that slow moving roundball killed him
    just as quick. Why? Because it went through both lungs. You put ANY
    kind of hole in them lungs, and that animal is going down.
    
      Look at the bow and arrow. This is what REALLY turned me completely
    away from the useless ballistics (ft/lbs energy) tables. I'll use the
    tables for trajectory, but for anything else I feel they're useless (
    just my opinion :-) ... The typical arrow shot from a bow will produce
    about 40 to 50 ft/lbs of energy. That's about as much as a 22 short!!!
    Yet, they've been used to Kill Grizzly, Elk, and every other big game
    animal in North America "quickly, cleanly, and efficiently"! You might
    ask "How?!?!" ... Simple! look at what is doing the damage to the
    animal! It isn't foot/pounds of energy that kills, it's the bullet, or
    arrow/broadhead that's doing the killing. That's the reason that good
    ole Elmer Keith liked the large calibers and distained anything else.
    Large calibers don't necessarily kill by shock, they kill by being able to
    punch through to the vitals, or by causing massive blood loss for the
    most part...
    
      In the Lyman book mentioned earlier, there's an article written by
    Gary White, an exclusive BP hunter. He takes a Moose at about 75 yards
    with a 62 caliber roundball with LESS than 1000 ft/lbs of energy. It
    was dead within 50 yards of where it was hit. As he puts it, the size
    of that flattened roundball punching into the vitals is an absolutely
    deadly combination...
    
      So, don't worry about your 50 cal T/C being too lethargic for Elk.
    It'll put 'em down quickly IF you hit 'em in the vitals, which is where
    you have to hit 'em with whatever you use anyway! :-)
    
    
    FWIW... Joe

re:.10

      no, but -.11 mentions a book in case you missed it.  I checked out the
    30-30 150 and 170 gr. stats.  The 150 comes out with more energy, at
    100yds both are almost the same and at 200 the 170gr is retaining more
    energy.  Does the heavier bullet always retain more energy down field -
    don't know.  But I'm not shooting BP past 100yds anyway.

re:.11

      I agree 100% with you.  A large hole in a vital organ will put an
    animal down, sooner or later.  Comparing the energy rating for
    different loads basically just gives one an idea how well that load
    combination will be able to penetrate bone and muscle to keep on going
    to make that hole.  I belive it also adds to the shock damage that
    assists in blood loss.  That's why a lot of guys are toting 7mm mags
    and other BIG guns.  For the penetration/knockdown power, particuliarly
    at the longer ranges.  I'm not knocking the bow, have hunted archery
    myself, but what happens if that arrow just happens to hit a hard chunk
    of bone?  Excellent chance the animal is going to run off with a good
    sore spot, if not worse.  The arrow just didn't have the energy to push
    on through and make the necessary wound channel.

      I put in the ballistics chart was to show that there is not a great
    deal of difference between the 50 and 54cal BPs. Not enough to justify
    buying a 54 when one already has a 50cal - my opinion/money.
    
      I'm not a ranter for more bullet energy, but I'm not going to blow it
    off either.  Placement is most important.  But, maybe, just maybe, the
    bullet energy an animal gets hit with can knock it down and keep it
    down, or hurt it bad enough it wants to lie down rather than to keep on
    running.  That can only reduce wounding loss by making it a little less
    farther one has track down a animal and chance losing the trail.  That
    aspect can't be ignored, especially with elk.  Elk are tough!
    
      I have had the fortune to shoot four elk ('06).  Two yearlings, both
    were laying down at under 40 yds.  Both got up and headed out with good
    lung shots.  One, also hit in the spine, was doing a good job of trying
    to head out with only his front legs working.  A bull calf took a good
    lung shot at 80 yds and disappeared like he had never been touched. 
    Found him some 150yds later and he didn't go down with out a fight
    based on the kicking around where he went down.  A large cow went down
    at the shot.  I happened to bust thru her shoulder blade on the way to
    the lungs and her elbow joint on the other leg had been shot some days
    earlier.  She couldn't get up.  I watched her for a good minute and
    then took my time getting to her - watching to make sure she didn't get
    up.  I thought she was dead before I starting walking to her, but, when
    I gave her a boot in the butt she was still alive.  Elk are tough.  

    I've shot a lot of deer with a 30-30, '06, and my 50cal BP.  Also one
    good sized black bear.  None of them, hit with similiar shots as the
    elk were hit with (except for the 30-30), did anything but drop then
    and there, kick once or twice and gave it up.  To repeat myself, I have
    a LOT of respect for the punishment an elk can take.  A lot of other
    people from articles I have read and talked to have the same opinion. 
    Some believe elk may be the toughest big game animal in America.

    Jerry

    Jerry,

    Your comment on the shoulder blade shot was more along the lines
    of why I asked.  If shot placement isn't 100% on, I want to make
    sure that bullet bulls its way on through and even though the
    round ball may have more muzzle energy, I had a sneakin' suspicion
    that the Maxi would be better off downrange.

	Mike

    Can't answer for muzzleloader, as I havn't been fortunate to shoot one
    with a smokepole yet, but regarding shocking power I had an experience 
    with that, just this year while hunting in VT.
    
    I shot a seven pointer at 35-40 yards with a .270 (130 spbt) the shot
    hit low, just behind the front shoulder... the bullet never hit the
    heart or lungs, it did however pass directly through the chest cavity
    and managed to break the front shoulder upon exiting.  
    The deer ran approx 10 yards and dropped dead within seconds of the
    initial hit.  Of all the deer i've shot with a rifle, this one died 
    the quickest.  Pretty amazing when you think that the only thing that 
    killed him was the hydrostatic shock... 
    
    Based on this experience alone i'd have to say, Opt for the 
    extra knockdown power, as you can't always guarantee a perfect boiler
    room shot, and even then, you might be surprised at the results. I
    know I was when I field dressed the 7 pointer and found the heart and
    lungs unscathed.  
    
    Fra