Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

RE:                     <<< Note 1001.0 by ODIXIE::RHARRIS >>>
                        -< IS THERE QUALITY IN SAVAGE >-


Bob,

See the discussion in Firearms note 4148.    RE: .270, excellent choice.

>>                     <<< Note 1001.0 by ODIXIE::RHARRIS >>>
>>                        -< IS THERE QUALITY IN SAVAGE >-

    bob,

	This has been kicked around a bit in the firearms notes
	file, so you may want to take a peak over there.  However,
	I'll be glad to share some observations with you.

	First, I'll start by saying the my dad has been shooting
	a Savage 110 in 30-06 for about 30 years.  He swears by
	it.  The only problem it ever gave him was that the front
	sling swivel came lose and caused him to drop the gun, once.
	Now, he knows to keep an eye on it and it's never happened
	again.  

	I currently own two .270 Winchester rifles.  One is a Remington
	700 BDL, which I bought new about 15 years ago.  The other is
	a Savage 110E which I bought used about 2 years ago.  In my
	opinion, there is no comparison.  Looks aside, the Remington
	is a much better rifle.  I am in the process of working up
	new loads for both rifles, and I can get consistant 1.25 to
	1.5 inch 5-shot groups with my Remington.  The best I've been
	able to come up with for my Savage is a 1.75 inch 3-shot group,
	which I'll probably use.  Also, I'm convinced that both
	rifles are capable of better performance, but I don't believe
	that the Savage can out-perform the Remington under any
	circumstances.

	One other thing.  Last year, my son was using the Savage and
	the extractor spring just popped out (or so he says).  Anyway,
	he finished the hunt with a single-shot rifle.  I also noticed
	some wear marks on the bolt.  When I had the extractor fixed,
	I had them check out the bolt.  It turned out that there is a
	plastic collar around the guard bolt.  It had collapsed, and
	allowed the guard bolt to protrude into the the action just a
	little.  It was easily fixed.  Also, the guy who fixed it 
	pronounced it in solid shape.  

	So, there you are.  In my opinion, the older Savages are
	better made rifles (just compare the wood, and you'll see
	what I mean).  Also, in my opinion, the Savages just aren't
	made as well as the Remingtons, Winchesters, Rugers and
	other higher priced rifles.  However, they do seem to be
	a reasonably good utilitarian firearm.  I guess that the
	old adage about "you get what you pay for" holds true
	in this case.
    
	Hope this helps,

	Jerry

    Seems that if I am on a budget, it might be better of me to purchase a
    used remington vs. a brand new Savage.  Thanks for the input.
    
    bob
    

    Bob, regarding new -vs- used... not necessarily... you can pick up a
    new Rem 700 ADL for under $300, not much more than a Savage...
    
    Not sure what you get with the Savage... can anyone go into a little
    detail...
    
    Fra

    Savage 110 E , interesting mix of componets in the rifle.Cheap stock
    that just doesn't seem to hang on to it's swivel posts.Had to replace
    them with an Uncle Mikes set.That was after the fectory set loosened up
    and scratched the stock.However , Savage did replace the stock free of
    charge.I believe the trigger is adjustable but sloopy.So ,if you
    replaced the trigger,the swivel posts and bedded the action you might
    end up with a decent rifle,for about the price of a Winchester
    Ranger.I'd skip it , buy a Winchester,Remmington,I think you'd be alot
    happier...
    
    
    

    Well, I just got back from a pawn shop, and forget the Savage.  I was 
    looking at the Savage 110 E in .270, and also at a couple Remingtons,
    and a Winchester.  The action in the Savage was SLOPPY!  I saw a
    Winchester bolt action in a .30-06 that I liked.  They stickered it at
    $300, but I know that I can get it for $250 out the door.  We are
    getting ready to have the Southeast's biggest deer show, the
    "Buckarama", and all the sales will happen during and after this.
    So, in conclusion, savage is out.  I am looking for a good sale, or a 
    good used Winchester, Remington, Or Ruger.
    
    Bob
    
    BTW, I have been practicing with my bow, look out!   Bow season comes
    around the 3rd week of September!!Yipeee!
    

In the September 1991 issue of Peterson's Hunting, there is a review
of the new Savage M112VF varmint rifle.  The review is very favorable.

The author also goes into some detail about how Savage is able to make
their guns more cheaply, and states that he likes them.  He reports
that he is able to get excellent accuracy out of both the M110 and the
new M112VF.

So, in the interest of presenting both sides of the issue (I kinda'
slammed Savage in an earlier reply), I recommend that you read the
article.  You should be able to get the magazine at you local news stand.

Jerry 

P.S.  Ever notice how these gun writers are able to get remarkable
results with an out-of-the-box rifle and factory ammo.  I don't think
I've ever read about any of 'em getting less that 1.5 MOA.  I bet that
if they reviewed sling shots they'd get the same.  ;-)

    Jerry,
    
      Your "P.S" says alot.  I agree and was thinking the same thing while
    reading your note.  I've never heard a gun writer slam a gun, with the
    exception of Gun Tests magazine.  They recomend all of them. Im trying
    to decide what gun to buy to go along with my .35 REM and my .338. Im
    leaning towards either a .270 or a 7mm-08.  want something primarily
    for whitetails.  Has anyone had any experience with the A-bolt?  I like
    the short radius bolt.  Have heard some rumours with accuracy problems
    and was wondering if anyone might have some feedback.
    
    Thanks
     Jeff

    
    re .8
    
    Accuracy problems with an A-bolt?  That's the first I've heard of it.
    The only experience I have with them is; 1. I've wanted to buy a left-
    handed stainless stalker in .270 for 2 yrs. now and haven't been able
    to get my hands on one without having to mortgage my house, and 2.
    I went with a buddy of mine when he picked up his .270 stainless and
    had it bore sighted (right out of the box), we went to the range and
    10 shots later he was placing 3 shots a dime would cover...the most
    amazing group I'd ever seen.  The real kicker was even I could shoot
    excellent groups with the gun...my friend is known for being a really
    good shot.  Two of his brothers now own stainless stalkers in .270 and
    they've taken some beautiful bucks with them.
    
    Problems like that I can live with!!!  :^)
    
    Kevin

>Im trying
>    to decide what gun to buy to go along with my .35 REM and my .338. Im
>    leaning towards either a .270 or a 7mm-08.

 Did you consider a .280? You can get a nice remington bolt action in .280 in
the low 400's. 

 The Doctah

    re. A Savage
    
    When I asked my father-in-law (a gunsmith) this question he answered...
    "When it's time to go hunting and everybody goes to pick up their gun,
    you might be embarrassed to grab yours."
    
    Ken

    By the way, I bought the Savage.  And also, "Embarrased to pick up my
    rifle", I got so much crap from my friends last year with their Big
    bore rifles and all I had was my "BB gun" marlin 30/30.  Well, the deer
    doesn't know what you got, and anytime my friends want some venison, I
    remind them that their dinner was provided by my old 30/30.
    
    I think embarassment would be, " I had a good buck right in the middle
    of my shooting lane, and I MISSED him!"  Now that's embarassment.
    
    Bottom line, it WILL kill a deer.  Unless it's a yuppie deer.
    
    bob
    

    Bob, don't know if you read the junk in 4148 of ::firearms or not,
    but I've recently bought the same gun (.270 Savage) and I think
    I'll be able to waste anything that comes my way. (anything in New
    Mexico anyhow) I shopped around before buying it and I couldn't
    find anything close to it for the price. The new Rugers, Remingtons,
    and what not were all pretty close to $400, and if you're not really
    interested in a pretty stock, but rather, you just want a good gun
    to go out and hunt with at a good price than the Savage is (IMHO)
    a good buy. Incidently, if you're not a very good shot you could
    be using a gold-plated Weatherby and it still would'nt make much
    difference, while on the other hand if you are a decent shot you
    could buy a Savage, put meat on the table, and still have an extra
    couple of hundred in your wallet.  :-)
    
    Carlos

>>      <<< Note 1001.13 by ELMAGO::CGRIEGO "Even so, come, Lord Jesus." >>>

>>    I'll be able to waste anything that comes my way. (anything in New
    
    Carlos,

	I'm glad you like your Savage.  In fact, if you'll go back and
	check, you'll see that I've entered several responses to this
	myself.  With your new Savage, you have a gun which should
	provide safe, reliable service for years to come.  Congratulations 
	on your purchase.

	However, this is not what my reply is all about.  I really
	wish that you would re-consider the use of the word "waste"
	when referring to legally harvesting wildlife (ok, when
	killing an animal).  As hunters, we are under scrutiny 
	from many anti-hunters who take the least little thing
	out of context and blow it all out of proportion.  When we
	use words like "waste", it just gives them a little extra
	ammo to categorize us all as blood-thirsty crazies.  I'm
	sure that you're not that kind of guy, but we all need to
	be aware of the impression we leave with others.

	That's about it.  I don't mean to get on your case.  I'm
	just trying to point out that we need to be careful how
	we represent ourselves.

	Jerry

    AMEN!  I just got my Field and Stream magazine yesterday, and was
    shocked at what I read.  It seems that some anti hunting organization
    in Colorado is telling anti's to get their hunting license, dress like
    a hunter, get a firearm and go into the woods.  What they do when they
    go into the woods, is make alot of noise, repeatedly fire the gun,
    smoke, just be obnoxious.
    
    All I have to say is, we as hunters have a responsibility to the public
    in acting professional.  I am a member of the North American Hunting
    Club, and Buckmasters, both of which are organizations that have
    received alot of exposure to the public for their goodwill. 
    Buckmasters has had blood drives, meat donations to the needy, etc.
    
    I know that that was a "slip" when Carlos said "waste".  I really don't
    think that anything was meant by it, and I do agree with the previous
    note about hunter presentation.  We are under a magnifying glass
    nowadays and have to be as cautious as the infamous whitetail.  Not
    only are we the hunter, we are the hunted.
    
    Bob
    

 Maybe we should follow their lead and be completely obnoxious and distasteful
pseudo-anti-hunters? If we got enough bad press for them maybe we could make 
hunters look better in the eyes of the media...

    Geez, you can tell it's Friday, I forgot to put my main point in on
    that last note.  
    
    Ok, so I have my Savage model 110E in a .270.  I bought a Redfield
    scope mounting system for the Savage 110 long action rifle.  I had
    my hunting buddy mount it to my rifle last night, cuz I'm all thumbs.
    Now I have to buy a scope to put on it, and I notice a potential 
    problem.  When it is going to be time to load a cartridge in the
    chamber, I think that the handle on the bolt will hit the scope when
    it is lifted up.  Should I have purchased some type of raised scope
    mount?  This mount goes flush with the rifle.  It is hard to describe
    in notes, but I think I have a problem.  Any input?
    
    bob (again)
    
    Btw, this is the weekend of the Big  Georgia Wildlife Federation
    Budweiser Buckarama.  For all of those who are not familiar with this,
    it is the Southeast's largest deer hunting show.  A multitude of
    booths, shows, seminars, snake chap demonstrations with live snakes,
    beer, hot looking women wearing really skimpy cammo outfits.  A hunter
    paradise.  YEH BABY!
    

    re.17 Scope mounts come in different heights. Try yours, and if it
    doesn't work, get higher rings. (You can usually get different
    height rings for the same bases.)

    Bob,
    
    i noticed you mentioned Redfield scope mounts...  Did you buiy a
    Redfield scope also...  a Widefield  (tv) type scope?  if so thats
    probably the problem...
    
    
    Fra

      Redfield rings come in four different heights.  Pick the one which
    allows enough clearance so you can work the bolt without hitting the
    scope.  Any decent gunstore should be able to help you.
    
    Jeff

    Getting higher rings will certainly correct the problem, at the expense
    of putting yourself in an unnatural and probably uncomfortable shooting 
    position.  I have to believe that Savage would design their bolt to
    accomodate normal scope mounting...  I have seen where the TV type
    occular (?) does get in the way of some bolt actions...  If it was the 
    scope shape being the problem, i'd opt for a new scope before I raised
    it up...  JMHO
    
    Fra

I had a Weaver K4 with wide field of view on my Savage.  Don't remember
what kind of mounts and rings, though.  If there's any interest, I'll
check and let you know.

Anway, I didn't have any problem with the scope being too high or with
the bolt clearing the scope when I opened it.

Like some of the previous replies said, I don't think it's a problem
unique to any particular brand of gun.  Most (maybe all?) bolt actions
will require more clearance between scope and receiver than a
lever, semi-auto or slide-action.  I guess that the low mounts are
designed for those rifles.

Jerry

    jerry,
    
    low base mounts/rings designed for levers/pumps and auto's... not true.
    i'm using a 3x9 burris with redfield low base rings and mounts and am
    having no trouble operating the bolt on my Rem 700... or my Ruger.
    A friend however has a pre-64 win and can't use the redfield widefield
    on it because the bolt hits it.  He has since gone to a Leupold 3x9 and
    is having no problems.
    
    when you shoulder a rifle you should be naturally looking down the
    sights, a low mounted scope is much easier to shoulder than the high
    mounted scopes, and the see through mounts etc...
    
    again, IMHO   fra
    
    

      Well,  I just bought a Browning A-bolt in .270  Putting a Leupold
    2-7 on it.  As I told my wife, "I need it".
    
    Jeff

    Well,  I just mounted my scope on the Savage, and , no problem.  The
    rings made it look like I was going to have problems, but when I
    mounted the scope yesterday, plenty of room.
    
    34 days until opening day of bow season!  yippee!
    bob
    

    I owned a Savage 110 left handed back in 1968. Bought it new for around
    $110.00. I put a real nice Bausch&Lomb 4X on it. It shot okay. Good
    enough for deer. But I also owned a model 99 Savage in .308. I hunted
    Calif. with it for Mulies. I got good groups considering it was a lever
    gun. I flattened 2 mulies who could not tell the difference in price or
    action. My brother owned the top of the line model 99. Eventually sold
    it to an uncle of ours who still uses it. 
    
    I shoot bolt actions today, but when I buy again I'll surely look at
    the model 99. When you consider the distances and the situations you
    usually find yourself in, a quick second shot means more than pin point
    accuracy. By the way, I put a Redfield peep sight on my model 99 and
    took out the insert which makes the sight hole bigger and went out an
    absolutely flattened a 4X4 mulie with a snap shot from a .308 150
    grain soft nose from 75 yards.
    
    Look at the 99. The woods good but the finish is lousy but it'll take a
    refinish job nicely!
    
    Pg
    

    Funny this note gets responses now.  I just input a note in firearms
    4148.
    
    bob
    

    I just ordered a Savage 110GC in 30-06.  My wife gave me a gift
    certificate for Christmas since I had wanted a new rifle more than
    anything.  When it came down to choosing to get the Savage or a
    Ruger/Remington/Winchester, I just couldn't get myself to part with the
    extra money.  I just didn't feel that for my needs that I could justify
    paying the extra money for the others.
    
    As to the scope mounting problem discussed earlier, the funny thing was
    that at Kittery Trading Post, there was a floor model that had a
    Simmons 3-9X variable mounted on Savage rings, and the bold handle was
    clearly hitting the scope when working the action.  That scope did not
    seem like a particulary wide scope, and I would have thought Savage
    rings would be the proper height.
    
    I am thinking of getting a Bushnell Trophy in 1.75-5X or 2-7x.  I liked
    the real wide field of view on that scope.  I guess I'll have to make
    sure I get the right height rings for proper scope clearance.
    
    I can't wait until the rifle arrives...
    
    -Mike