Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

 I would bet that those numbers are extrapolated given the assumption that
lions only eat deer. Since mountain lions are somewhat more opportunistic 
feeders, I'd bet that the numbers are pretty far off. If I had to take a SWAG,
I'd bet that the average mountain lion kills and eats less than a dozen full
grown deer per year.

 The Doctah

     They could'nt harvest enough deer and elk in most mountain areas 
    in Colorado last year. They usually give out all doe/cow tags in
    a drawing around june 1. Last year they were setting up roadside
    stands to try to get hunters to harvest females in addition to
    males in both 2nd and 3rd combined season. The herds were at an
    all time high and worries about drought coupled with the prospects
    of a harsh winter made them want to cull more animals. I have also
    heard 1 deer a week/cougar, but have heard 250 lbs 7-8 feet long
    not counting tail. We have had cougars coming down in the Broadmoor
    in Co Spgs and getting peoples dogs. A jogger was killed near
    Idaho Springs and the cougar had been guarding/feeding of the
    body for a couple of days before he was shot. 
    
    chuck 

Out here deer, rabbits, ground squirrels, and turkeys are the meat items
on a lions wild animal menu, with deer being the most plentiful.  I can
believe that an adult lion could/would kill a deer a week.  Now they don't
usually eat the entire thing.  We have found deer partially eaten and covered
up by lions.  I've also found the feathers of turkey scattered all over the
place, this was in lion country.  Now a turkey isn't going to keep a 200
pound lion going long.  We don't have lots of rabbits in the mountains
here either.  A little ground squirrel isn't going to keep a cat full long
either.  Deer would have to be the main dish, as there are lots more
of them than anything else.

The lions close to town have taken a liking to kitty cats and dogs.  This
has caused an uproar by the people that have built their homes in the lions
front yard.    We did not have lions coming into town until homes
were built in the areas like upper broadmoor and mountain shadows.  The
residents up there think it is so neat to have the deer feeding at their
back door and invite the lions to eat their dogs by chaining them up out
side and let the kittys run freely.  The lions have found the pets to be
easier picking than wild animals.  Friends of mine have seen a large lion
on the ridge between CX03 and Garden of Gods Road in just the last couple of 
weeks.  Now the residents expect the DOW to kill the lions.  How come the 
animal rights people aren't raising hell about this?  Must have been their 
little Fluffy or Fido that got eaten.

Gordon

    re: -1
     Agreed!
     I work with a certain person occasionally, who I
    could tell was somewhat anti-hunting (by the way he used
    to get cold-ly silent, with a look of disapproval when I
    would talk about my love for BG hunting). He owns a home
    in Mountain Shadows. I mentioned going BG hunting this 
    year to him, and he says with a look of disgust,"I'd
    love you to shoot the bunch that are eating my new shrubs
    and stuff". He was dead serious. Mountain shadows used
    to be the wintering ground of deer, bighorn sheep and
    etc.
    
    chuck

On a much sadder note, there was a small article in yesterday's
paper (the Gazette-Telegraph) about a possible mountain lion attack.

In Riverside, Ca., officials have found evidence that suggests that
a mountain lion has carried off a 3 year old child.  It didn't say
how long the child had been missing, nor what the evidence was.  It
did say that there hadn't been a confirmed mountain lion attack in
California since 1890.

Jerry

    re .5
    A later report on that lion is that it is very doubtful that a lion did
    take the child.  A tracker pointed out that the tracks don't match the
    story.  It sounds as though there is another side of the tale.
    
    Ken

The following doesn't really have anything to do with hunting, but
it seems appropriate for this topic.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

	C O L O R A D O   D I V I S I O N   O F   W I L D L I F E

		    TIPS ON LIVING IN LION COUNTRY
		    ==============================

1.  DO NOT encourage wildlife such as deer and raccoons into your yard
    by artificial feeding methods.  Lions will follow prey species even in
    close proximity to homes, dogs, and livestock.

2.  DO NOT allow pets to run at large.  Roaming pets are easy prey and can
    be an attraction to lions.

3.  Consider escorting your children to the bus stop in early morning.
    Clear an area around the bus stop.  Have a light installed there.
    Parents can take turns staying at the bus stop with children.

4.  Install floodlights that you can turn on and off to light those places
    you must travel during the times lions are most active.  Lions can
    habituate to constant light but keep in mind this light provides for
    your visual aid.

5.  Protect you dog by constructing a kennel with a closed top.

6.  You do not have to completely clear your property of brush but have it
    open enough to make it impossible for a lion to sneak up and possible
    for you to have ample opportunity to see a lion nearby.

7.  DO NOT leave barn and shed doors open.  Inquisitive lions may go inside
    for a look.

8.  Having a dog as a companion for your child or for you when you are out
    in lion country is suggested because dogs can see, smell, and hear a
    lion sooner than humans can.

9.  Discuss lion safety with your children.  Show them how they can protect
    and prepare themselves in the unlikely event they encounter a lion.

10. If you do encounter a lion that attacks there is a good change the
    lion can be driven away by aggression on the part of the victim or
    other people.  In other known attacks,people who ran at the lion,
    yelled and hit it about the head with sticks have driven mountain lions
    away.

11. If you encounter a lion, raise your arms or spread open your jacket to
    appear as large as you possibly can.

12. If a lion poses a serious threat to human life or livestock, a person
    has the right to kill that lion.  A lion taken under these
    curcumstances is the property of the state.  The incident must be
    reported within 48 hours and the lion must be turned over to the
    Division of Wildlife within 5 days.  If you decide to shoot a lion
    under these circumstances be sure of your shot.  A wounded lion may be
    a greater problem to the neighborhood.  You will also be expected to
    pursue and kill any animal you wound.  BE AWARE that there is a real
    danger to others in discharging a firearm in a residential area.

    If you have an encounter with a lion that is abnormal in nature, or an
    attack occurs, contact the Division of Wildlife (8 - 5 MONDAY THRU
    FRIDAY) at 473-2945.  After hours contact the El Paso County Sheriff's
    Department at 390-5555.  It is very important that we are able to
    respond to these incidents immediately if we are to have any chance of
    locating the lion(s).

===========================================================================

        EXCERPTS FROM A PAMPLET - THE FACTS ABOUT MOUNTAIN LIONS
                   Colorado Division of Wildlife

1.  What to do if you encounter a Lion

    - When you walk or hike in lion country, make plenty of noise to reduce
      your chances of surprising a lion.

    - If you do encounter a lion, don't panic and don't make quick
      movements.  Talk calmly to the lion and back slowly away.

    - DO NOT turn your back on the lion.  DO NOT crouch or run from it.

    - NEVER approach a lion, especially if it is feeding.

    - DO NOT make direct eye contact with the lion, mountain lions may
      perceive this as a threat.

    - Remember most mountain lions will avoid controntation.

    - If a mountain lion attacks, fight back.

2.  What to do if you live in lion country

    - Children should not play alone outdoors in areas where mountain lions
      live.  They should play in groups and an adult should be nearby and 
      immediately available.
      
    - Consider getting a dog as a companion for you children.

    - Make sure you children are inside before dusk.

    - Landscape or remove native vegetation so that you don't provide
      hiding places for lions, especially around children's play areas.
      You might even want to fence play areas and keep a radion playing.

    - Make a lot of noise if you come and go during the times mountain
      lions are most active -- dusk to dawn.

    - Bring pets and pet food in at night.  If you have to leave you pet
      outside, it is better to keep the animal in an enclosure than to keep
      it chained up.

    - Protect livestock in corrals or stalls.

    - Do not encourage deet to come into your yard.
      
    - NEVER feed mountain lions (or any other wild mammals).

    - Keep an axe or a club in the yard where you can get at it if you need
      to fend off a mountain lion attacking someone.

SUMMARY OF MOUNTAIN LION KNOWLEDGE

    Mountain lions (also called cougars or pumas) are adaptable predators
found in much of the western hemisphere.  In Colorado, lions are found in
areas of pinyon pine, juniper, mountain mahogany, ponderosa pine, and oak
brush.  While the number of mountain lions in Colorado in not known for
certain, the population is thought to be in good shape and there are more
of this animals than most people probably think.  Lions are beautiful
animals which are very powerful and capable of killing large animals.  They
are worthy of you respect especially since they live in almost every place
where deer or elk ar found, including muntain subdivisions and urban
fringes and open spaces.

    Individual mountain lions have home ranges of 10 to 40 square miles,
although some individuals may have ranges up to 300 square miles.  The size
of the home range depends on terrain and how much food is available.
Boundries of home ranges are ofter marked with piles of dirt and twigs,
called scrapes.

DESCRIPTION
    Mountain lions in this area are usually tawny to light cinnamon
colored.  Their ears and tails are tipped with black.  Kittens are spotted,
but these spots fade by the end of their first year.  A full grown mountain
lion weighs 90 to 150 pounds and can be 6 to 8 feet long.  Mountain lions
are easily distinguised from other wild cat species in Colorado.  They are
much larger than bobcats and have a long tail-as long as one third of their
body length.

NATURAL HISTORY
    Mountain lions are generally active from dusk until dawn, although they
will travel and hunt in daylight.  They eat mostly deer, but will also prey
on porcupines, elk, small mammals, and domestic animals.  Like most cats,
they take their prey by ambush rather than by a long pursuit.  After
spotting its prey, the mountain lion carefully stalks to within a few feet
of its victim, using any available cover.  It then attacks in a rush.
Sometimes a lion will lie in ambush on a rocky ledge above a game trail(a
path often traveled by deer) where it may wait for hours at a time.  Lions
usually kill with a powerful bite below the base of the skull of their
prey.  They usually drag the carcass to a sheltered spot beneath a tree or
overhang and eat only part of the kill.  They cover the carcass with dirt,
leaves, or snow, and may return several times during the next few days to
eat.  Feeding lions may be aggressive towards people.

    Female mountain lions first reproduce when they are about 2 1/2 years
old.  They can have litters of from one to six kittens in any month of the
year.  The kittens are weaned by eight weeks of age and may remain with
their mother until they are eighteen months to two years of age.

ENCOUNTERS BETWEEN LIONS AND PEOPLE
    As people have moved closer to and into lion counry, the number of
mountain lion sightings has increased.  In Boulder County, for example,
encounters between people and mountain lions increased 20-fold from 1970 to
1987.  This increase is likely due to a variety of reasons, including
increases in lion numbers and range along with increases in the deer
population.  More people using more hiking and running trails and a greater
awareness of the presence of lions have probably also contributed.

    Unprovoked lion attacks on people are infrequenct, although they have
occurred in recent years in Texas, California, Montana, Arizona, and
Colorado.  Many attacks seem to be made by young males who haven't
established home ranges.  Lions key in on "prey size" pets and people,
especially children or crouching adults.  

There was a small news story on one of the Colorado Springs stations
last night about mountain lions.  There has been a healthy increase
in lion sightings around populated areas in the last several years.
One of the reasons cited for this is that the lion population in
Colorado has TRIPLED in the last 25 years.  In 1965, bounty hunting
on mountain lions was outlawed.

The story also stated that most of the lions seen in populated areas
were either young animals which had not yet established their territory,
or older animals which had been displaced by younger, stronger lions.

The story did not mention encroaching civilization (new housing, etc.)
into wildlife habitat, nor an abundant food supply consisting of
neighborhood pets.  Seems to me that these are also factors.

Jerry

    
    I happened to catch a news story this morning about a mountain lion
    killing a jogger in California.  Anyone have more information?
    
    
    Gary

    Yes, a 40yr old woman jogger met one of these protected predators and
    came out second best.  So now a bunch folks are combing the hills with
    "shoot to kill" orders.  
    
    guess any cat in the area is in trouble.  
    
    Why is this such a surprise?  Big cats predate.  So do humans. 
    Sometimes they win, most of the time we do.  The folks voted to bring
    back cats by protecting them.  so they are back.  live with the
    results.
    
    All the stalkers should just get of the woods and let the cat go.  You
    cannot have it both ways.
    

    We (in Oregon) are having a large influx of mountain lions.  Or at
    least they have become a lot more visible.  We have had some stalking
    incidents with children and have lost a few dogs and cats.  Nothing as
    serious as with the jogger, though.  I saw a large female with two
    grown cubs up at the cabin last year.  They were out in the open so
    didn't stick around too long.
    
    I met one on the trail during elk season last fall.  Kind of a Mexican
    stand off.  I had a gun, but it was madder.  I backed down and it just
    walked off in to the timber.
    
    Latest move in the state is to put an initiative on the ballot to stop
    hunting lions with dogs.  Also, no dogs for bear hunting and hunting
    over bait.  F&G says the population of both species is healthy and, as
    best they can tell, about equivalent to what it was during the settlers
    time.  How they know that I haven't the foggiest idea.  I suspect it
    will pass with all the press in its favor.
    
    Ken  
    
    

    
    
    Ken, the bear hunting sounds just like what happened here in Colorado!
    
    There after us every where we turn....
    
    Dave
    

Reminds me of a scene from Jaws...  with all the locals out shark hunting...  and
they pull in with the "violator"...

How they plan on telling which cat did the deed is beyond me...  course I don't hunt
cats either, could be easy with dogs on a trail I guess...

What a shame...

Fra

    They have killed the cat that killed the jogger in Cool, California. I
    think this is just the begining, someday these animal rights types will
    lose a child and I will feel sad for them but I think they have brought
    it on themselves.  The news here said that after looking at the old
    ballots on the Lion Initiative. Cool California supported the measure
    by 65%. I Say serves em right!! I hope they realize that where theres
    one cat, there are more.  It will happen again. As for me I shoot first
    then let god sort em out..
    
    Joe 
    I told You So.
    What do You think of the coyote problem now..

    Re: they killed the cat....
    
    Oh yeah?  What did they do? get fingerprints?  Or did it confess before
    its execution?  Or was it a fall guy and the big bad boy is still out
    there?  
    
    They killed "a" cat....now all is well.  Til next time.  
    
    Humans are so pathetic at times.
    

     
    I agree humans are pathetic,  the cat was just doing what it has been
    doing all if its life, Its how it survives.  The cats have been here 
    longer that we have.  Because the cat decides to prey on a human it 
    should die? I'm sorry but we are a part of the food chain also, a point 
    that has been long forgotten.  Don't get me wrong I feel for the kids 
    and the family for their loss, although the cat should not have been 
    terminated.  If people don't want to get hurt they should not go into 
    the Mountion Lion's back yard.  After all it is his yard right!  Or 
    has that Issue been lost too.
    
    
    
    Vega
    

I read two articles yesterday off the Internet about this incident.
They said they killed a cat (female) believed to be the one responsible
because it was in the same area, they tend to hang out in an area after making
a kill. Tests on teeth patterns and all needed to be made before they could
be certain it was the right one. Signs on the womens body suggest that the
cat attacked her twice, which meant that the cat had to be destroyed because
it would now consider humans easy prey and attack more of them. There was
also concern that the cat might have been rabid, as Cougars don't normally
attack humans.

Mark

    It has become normal for the Cats here to attack or harass people.
    They have eaten every thing in site, from cows to pigs to sheep to
    people, they are now at a point where there are more and more
    incedences of attacks on people.  As to why they killed the animal I
    think if you would like the critter in your back yard I would be happy
    to pay the shipping costs. The need for conservation is important dont
    get me wrong, As conservation director for the Izzac Walton League
    California Division (four Years). I have seen what happens when a
    species is ignored.  These animals need to be maintained, just as with
    any other species.  Depreditation hunting did control these animals for
    many years.  during this time the deer hunting here was great, now
    there are no deer in most locations guess where they went.  The fact
    that there are no deer left means that these now numerous and hungry
    cats have to find other foods. Cats dogs and now people are on the
    list.  This will never end until one of two things happen.  The Cats
    starve (natural selection) or Open hunting seasons on them are allowed. 
    As in the case of the Big Horn sheep, Limited hunting of these cats
    would benefit a state where revenue from hunting licenses is on the
    decline.  The needs of the many (People, deer, dogs, cats, and kids)
    need to be ballanced with the needs out the lions.  An effort must be
    mounted to lift the law that was placed on the ballot by anti hunters,
    this is the law that allows animals to kill people.  Until the law is
    removed and the state department of fish and game is allowed to do the
    good job that they can do, expect more conflicts in the area of who is
    king the lion or the people...
    Off the soap box
    Joe
    

    previous reply was not meant as anti-hunting of cats, rather anti the
    A**inine liberal attitude that predators "need" to be introduced into
    and then protected from the habitat.  But when the natural thing
    happens its up in arms with a posse to "Get" the perp!
    
    I don't want your cat's. (because our deer herd would suffer, as "king"
    predator, I want them for myself) But if Michigan liberalism voted for 
    it then we get what we deserved when predators fought it out. 
    
    California made that choice.  Going after just one cat is like banning
    guns from law abiding owners, it will not answer anything.  To solve
    the problem, you need to hunt them completely out.  They just don't
    belong in that habitat any longer.  (unless you are willing to live
    with the situation as it is).   It's the hypocrisy I find pathetic.
    
    Hey, I'm going up into the Cabinets or BM wilderness this fall.  Lot's
    of cats up there.  Taking a risk?  Sure.  But that makes it all the
    more attractive (somehow).  If a cat makes a decision to eat me and
    gets past my long reach weapons to use its close in weapons then I'm
    likely to get eaten right?  
    
    If you cannot accept that risk, then don't go.  If Californian's can't
    accept that risk then stay home.  
    
    Please don't get defensive from use of Californians.  I am referring to
    the bulk of those that made the decision to protect and support the cat
    population in the first place.
        

    
    It appears the cat they killed had a cub.  They found it in the area
    where they got the cat.

Article: 6232
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From: [email protected] (AP)
Newsgroups: clari.world.americas.canada,clari.news.trouble,clari.living.animals
Distribution: clari.apo
Subject: Child Attacked By Cougar
Keywords: North America
Copyright: 1994 by The Associated Press, R
 
	GOLD RIVER, British Columbia (AP) -- A cougar leaped out of a
forest and mauled a 7-year-old boy on his way to school Monday.
	Kyle Musselman was flown to a hospital in Vancouver, where he
was in serious condition with head and neck wounds.
	The attack on the west coast of Vancouver Island came as Kyle
and friends were descending steps on an embankment leading to a
highway, said Hart Schnee, principal of Ray Watkins elementary
school, where the boy is a student.
	The cougar leaped out of thick brush as the group was halfway
down, Schnee said. Kyle was the only one attacked.
	Other children tried to scare the big cat off by throwing rocks,
but when that failed they ran to a nearby house for help.
	After the boy was rescued, police tracked down the 85-pound
cougar and a Royal Canadian Mounted Police officer shot and killed
it.
	Cougars have killed 10 people in British Columbia since 1900.
All the victims were children.
	On April 23, a mountain lion chased down and killed a woman
runner near Rancho Cordova, Calif. State-hired hunters killed it
May 1.

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Comment: Subject mapped from all upper case
From: [email protected] (Reuters)
Newsgroups: clari.local.california,clari.living.animals,clari.news.trouble
Distribution: clari.reuters
Subject: Two Cougars Killed, One after Mauling Canadian Boy
Copyright: 1994 by Reuters, R
 
	 SAN DIEGO (Reuter) - A mountain lion was shot and killed a
day after it crouched and bared its claws near a 3-year-old boy
camping with his family in a state park, officials said Tuesday.
	 The adult female cougar was shot Monday, the same day
another mountain lion attacked and mauled a boy walking to
school on the west coast of Vancouver Island in British
Columbia, Canada.
	 Two weeks ago a female cougar was killed after attacking a
jogger in the northern California town of Cool.
	 Lieutenant Robert Turner of the California Department of
Fish and Game said the latest incident occurred about 45 miles
east of San Diego in the Cuyamaca Rancho State Park.
	 Turner said he was called to a campground Sunday by park
rangers who reported a crouching mountain lion had come within
five feet of the child and bared its claws. The boy's father
chased the cougar away by shouting and waving a stick.
	 Turner and a tracking team found the animal Monday morning a
short distance from the camp site. ``It was just laying there
when we found it,'' said Turner, who killed the 80-pound
 cougar with one shot from a .308-caliber rifle from 20 yards.
	 Turner said park rangers and fish and game officials have
noticed a rise in the area's cougar population in recent years.
	 ``They're usually very elusive and rarely seen by people.
The thing is, they're getting so used to people because they see
them on a daily basis now,'' Turner said.
	 Turner said shooting is the only alternative once an animal
displays aggressive behavior against humans. ``You can't keep
people out of the back country,'' he said.
	 In the British Columbia case, 7-year-old Kyle Mussleman was
attacked while walking with friends near thick brush. He remains
in serious condition in a Vancouver hospital with head and neck
wounds. said Hart Schnee, principal at his elementary     REUTER