Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    How do I deal with snakes?  I don't.  I run like hell.  But seriously,
    by the time its time for me to go into the woods, hopefully it has
    cooled down enough for the snakes to go back in there hole.
    
    As for equipment, a good pair of snake chaps would be good.  I went to
    a deer hunter convention this year, and they had a pit of about 30 or
    so snakes.  The guys demonstrating the snake chaps would kick the
    snakes and step on them to piss them off, and the snakes would
    retaliate by striking the guys in the legs.  The amazing thing is that
    the snakes fangs could not even penetrate the chaps.  It still would
    make me nervous, but you are protected, except in the "VITAL" zone.
    
    Bob(3 days and counting)
    

    I believe there are a few poisonous snakes in NH, but they are rare
    here.  Though it is possible it was poisonous, my guess is it was not.
    Can you describe both the appearance and behavior of the snake?
    
    I grew up in the deep south (South Miss.), and believe me, I do not
    miss seeing poisonous snakes constantly in the woods.  When we got
    bored fishing we would take a fly rod and popping bug and snag water
    mocosins (sp?), reel them up to the boat and bash their heads in
    against the gunale with a boat paddle.  We broke more boat paddles that
    way....  One day a snake came off the hook and into the boat.  We
    decided that maybe that wasn't the best game to play.
    
    mark,
    

 There are only two types of poisonous snakes that live in NH (to the best of
my knowledge); the copperhead and some sort of rattler (timber rattler?). I've
heard stories about water moccasins too, but I don't know for sure if they
really live this far north.

 I have seen a copperhead before in NH twice. Once was in Nashua, in a 
relatively undeveloped (at the time) area on the northwest side. We were playing
with the snake, getting it to bite at a stick when my buddy's dad came home
and saw what we were doing and killed the snake (the man went ballistic). We
were about 15 at the time. Another time was when we were getting up a stump
at Lavoie's farm in Hollis. He was using the bucket on one of the tractors to
lift the stump, and when it came up there was a nest of small copperheads.
We left them alone.

 Fortunately, poisonous snakes are pretty rare in NH. I've seen alot of snakes
in NH, but only two poisonous ones.

 I second the call for a description of the snake.

 The Doctah

    
    	There are timber rattlers here in Vermont, so it doesn't surprise
    me that you'd have some in N.H.  As for copperheads.... According to 
    what I've read, their range shouldn't extend much further north than
    Virginia or so.  There are no Water Moccasins up here, that's purely
    hogwash!
    
    - Rob
    

    Down here in Maryland, we've go the Water Moccasins and Copperheads.
    At least that's what I've been told
    
    Christine

    As far as I know the northern most limit of Timber Rattlesnakes was
    about the middle of N.H. and thereabouts. I have seen one in my life
    and that was in the White Mountains. A few months ago there was a
    Sports Afield article about the different poisonous snakes that are
    common in the U.S. It's possible that you may have seen a copperhead as
    some construction companies (and other types of companies) have been
    known to "accidently" bring snakes and other types of animals up here 
    when transporting equipment from down south and from other parts of the
    states.
    							bret

    I read an article recently on rattle snakes in new england and
    it stated 3 towns in Mass that still had populations, one of which
    was Boxboro I believe (I found this hard to believe) and the other's
    I don't recall....Rob, my ex-wife killed a small timber rattler
    out in Jericho Vt. when I was working at BTO. We lived right on
    the edge of the firing range. For those not familiar with the area,
    there's a huge military firing range. It's largely undisturbed,
    and might explain why a rattle snake population could survive in
    that area. Actually, are we talking about timber rattlers here,
    or are they Eastern Diamondbacks ? Either way, it didn't thrill
    me to know we had any near our house...As to the snake in question
    it was only about a foot long, it was fresly dead, it was reddish
    brown in color, and the head was somewhat larger then the body,
    in a small triangular shape, which I associate with a venomous
    snake from my four years living by a swamp on the outskirts of
    Tyndall Air Force Base, Florida. Moccasons, swamp rattlers, pigmy
    rattlers and coral snakes (the exception to the triangular head
    observation), this was snake heaven!
    
    Marty
    

 If it was dead (_really dead_) then opening it's mouth would have been a
pretty easy way to tell for sure. :-)

 If it wasn't a copperhead, it may have been a milk snake. (Plenty of those 
around; neat markings too.)

 The Doctah

    I think a milk snake has some sort of pattern in it's markings
    and this was pretty much solid in color, but it was small and
    maybe they dont develop all their coloration until older ???
    
    Marty

    As I recall, copperheads are fairly heavy snakes so the body would
    be much bigger in diameter for the length than say a garter snake.
    They are also very aggressive snakes, but I guess you couldn't tell
    that if it was already dead.
    
    Mark,

    Mark,
    Could you explain what "aggressive" means when talking about snakes?
    Does this mean they come after you ? :-)
    
    Thanks,
    Marty

	Marty,

	Far as I know, copperheads and timber rattlers could be found in
	NH.  The eastern diamondback is a southern snake and a big one
	at that ... up to 8 feet (that's wight wabbit ;-) and you won't
	see one in NH (and just as well) ... largest poisonous snake in 
	North America.

	What you might have seen was a hognose snake.  They've got a
	kinda chubby body, can flatten their head so it looks as nasty
	as a poisonous one, and act funky.  If you start pokin' at one,
	it'll try to book, if it can't get away, it'll act dead till
	you leave.  Too, they can hiss like the dickens and will rattle
	their tail which can sound pretty scarey in the leaves.

	Yep, Florida's got some snakes and the one I hated worse was the
	pigmy rattler.  It's only about 2' when full grown (there's lots
	of 9-12"ers around :-(, look just like the ground (you can sit on
	one really easy if you're not super careful) and even with 5+
	rattles you can't hear them 'cause they're so small.  Bite's
	just as bad as a 4+' anykindaother rattler.

	Colorado's got the prarie arttler and western diamondback (down 
	south I guess) but I've never seen a live one yet (11+ yrs) in the 
	state.  One dead one on a road here at CX0 a coupla years back.

	Sure fire way of telling if it's a poisonous snake is to check
	if it's got fangs.  Take _all_ precautions.  Another way for the
	pit vipers (water moccasins, rattlers & copperheads) is to look at 
	the bottom side of their tail just past the anal flap ... the skutes
	(bottom scales) remain single-row like the rest of the snake's
	belly.  Non-poisonous snakes' turn double-row after the flap.

	AA (who used to catch and sell snakes (both kinds) 
	    to Bill Hauss at the Miami Serpentarium)

    no, by aggressive I didn't mean they would actually come after you.
    What I meant was that the one's I've encountered would not "back down";
    If you were comeing towards them or bothering them, they would hold
    their ground even if they had a good escape route.  By contrast, the
    eastern diamond back will always get out of your way if they know
    you are coming.  
    
    I'm not an expert on snakes, but I did grow up in the deep south
    spending lots of time fishing, etc in the woods.  As a teenager, I
    did property surveys during the summers and weekends.  That's a lot
    of hours in snake country and I saw thousands of cotton mouths and
    copperheads, but NEVER saw a diamond back while we were in the woods.
    There were plenty around, but we were careful to make enough noise not
    to suprise them.  Most of the rattlers we saw would be crossing the
    road while we were driving by.  We ran over on that was 7 or 8 feet.
    The fullsized station wagon going over it didn't seem to bother it.  We
    decided NOT to chase it....
    
    I've had no experience with timber rattlers, so can't say about them.
    
    Mark,
    

    I wouldn't worry too much about the poisonous snakes that are common to
    the NE area.  I mean, they can give a nasty bite, but nothing that is
    going to drop you dead on the spot (but which will obviously require
    treatment)!  The real nasties: Boomslangs, Bushmasters, Mamba's,
    Adders, and Spitting Cobras aren't common to this area (no where near),
    so fear not (they're the only real ones to worry about IMHO).
    
    RE:	CSMET2::WOOD 
    
    >Could you explain what "aggressive" means when talking about snakes?
    
    The term "aggressive" in relation to snakes relates to the snakes
    temperment/behavior.  An aggressive snake, like a Yellow or Green
    Anaconda, will attack unprevoked, and repeatedly bite its enemy (as 
    opposed to striking once and returning to its strike-ready stance)! 
    Yes, I know, they are constrictors, but they have a fiesty bite, and
    they use it!  Most poisonous snakes aren't inherently aggressive, so
    there is alot of fear wasted on them for nothing.  If you're worried
    about snakes in the wild, a good pair of tall leather boots should do
    the trick.  Or, as previously mentioned, snake-proof pants or chaps.  
    
    RE:		COMET::ALBERTUS 

    >The eastern diamondback is a southern snake and a big one at that ... 
    >up to 8 feet 
    
    Most rattlers top out around 5' long.  But, even with an 8 footer,
    you don't have too much to worry about, as a snake's strike distance
    is somewhat limited.  An 8' snake would probably have a strike 
    distance of about 3 1/2 feet tops!  So, unless you're that close...
    
    >Sure fire way of telling if it's a poisonous snake is to check
    >if it's got fangs.  
    
    Most of the highly poisonous snakes are rear-fanged snakes, however,
    so their deadly appearance is not as easily perceived as, say, a
    rattler.
    

    
    On some of the nature specials run on the PBS stations, seen some time
    ago.  On snakes they stated, that if the snake's colour scheme was of a
    particular order, i.e. light-dark-light, as opposed to dark-dark-light
    etc., that would distingiush lethal from non lethal.  Any comments in
    this area?  Personally I had an experience like the Ole boy from
    Mississippi while fishing in Texas, so no kinda like live and let live,
    get my drift?
    
    Cheers
    Leonard

I guess that I might as well put in my two cents worth.  I grew up
in a part of the country where the Western Diamondback rattlesnake
was fairly common.  I can even remember one time when some chickens
we were raising were playing keep away with a 12 inch rattler in our
yard.  The chickens won.

So, I have a healthy respect for snakes.  My cut on it is, if you see
one, give it plenty of room and then try to figure out what it is.
Also, be aware of the snake situation.  In West Texas, you have to
be extra special careful in mid to late August.  This is the time of
the year when the rattle snakes undergo some sort of physiological
change and the become damn near blind.  This makes them particularly
edgy (at least this is what I have always been told).

Basically, I kill poisonous snakes when I find them in close proximity
to populated areas and leave the others alone.   

Jerry

P.S.  A little saying I learned in Boy Scouts about how to tell the
difference between a coral snake (extremely dangerous) and a king
snake (non-poisonous) is:

	Red on yellow, kill a fellow

That is, if the ring pattern is such that there is a red ring next to
a yellow one, you're looking at a coral snake.

>A little saying I learned in Boy Scouts about how to tell the
>difference between a coral snake (extremely dangerous) and a king
>snake (non-poisonous) is:
>
>	Red on yellow, kill a fellow
>
>That is, if the ring pattern is such that there is a red ring next to
>a yellow one, you're looking at a coral snake.

    Right!  A Coral snakes marking go Red-Black-Yellow etc. etc.  A
    California King snake's markings go Red-Black-Yellow-Black etc.
    
>Basically, I kill poisonous snakes when I find them in close proximity
>to populated areas and leave the others alone.   
    
    However, seeing how man is overdeveloping the continental USA, and are
    depriving snakes of all kinds of their natural habitats, it's sad
    to think that we must kill them simply because we've taken over their
    homes!  ;^(  I hold this point of view becuase not all poisonous snakes
    are aggressive.  Most are even tempered, and some are really docile!
    
>be extra special careful in mid to late August.  This is the time of
>the year when the rattle snakes undergo some sort of physiological
>change and the become damn near blind.  This makes them particularly
>edgy (at least this is what I have always been told).
    
    Hmmm, to my knowledge, Rattlers undergo no special change that would
    make them blind other than molting, which occurs about 4 times/year
    in adults.  Snakes, while not having the greatest vision to begin
    with, really loose sight of things when they molt, and do increasingly
    become edgy.  I had a Boa that would take your hand off if you tried
    to mess with it during molting!!  FWIW, snakes sense heat and
    vibration, and use their tongue for their sense of smell in lieu of
    good eyesight.  
    
    B.

>	Red on yellow, kill a fellow

	Too, a coral snake always has a black nose; the scarlet king snake
	never does.  A quicker way for me than trying to match the colors,
	'specially when they's a crawlin'.

	And the skin shedding (molting) will cloud a snake's eyes.
	Happens at varying frequency depending upon how well the snake eats
	and hence grows.  Every time a rattler sheds, it gets another
	button on the rattle so that's no indication of age, just how
	many times it's shed.  Too, the rattles will break off.

	B.,

	Yep, was talking about NA snakes.

	AA

    Or was it "black and red will kill you dead"?
    
    I never could keep that straight :-)
    
    Mark
    

    It don't matter to me..
    
    If it slithers, kill it !!!
    
    
    Jim
    

    >Too, a coral snake always has a black nose; the scarlet king snake
    >never does.  A quicker way for me than trying to match the colors,
	
    The scarlet King snake may not possess a black nose, but the California
    Mountain King snake does (or at least mine did)!
    
    RE: .20
    
    Bad attitude, dude!
    
    B.

>    The scarlet King snake may not possess a black nose, but the California
>    Mountain King snake does (or at least mine did)!
 
	Wasn't aware of that one.  Does it have the red, black & white/
	yellow pattern somewhat like the coral snake?

	AA

    I watched a show on PBS a while back. It was called "Rattlesnake King
    of the Northeast".  They were interviewing this fellow that catches
    rattlesnakes and sells their venom. He was from Southern NH and claimed
    that he has caught rattlers in every southern NH township. He claimed
    all you have to know is where to find them. I also read an article
    about rattlers in Maine. This article claimed that a lot of rattlers
    were transported into Maine(Raymond) by railroads. The snakes
    apparently would get into the railroad cars. Raymond used to have so
    many snakes that they would have snake roundups like they do out west!
    They claim that most were caught or killed. But you never know. I
    always take care of where I place my hands and feet whenever there are
    stone walls, logs and swamps! As to rattlers in Boxboro, MA., I heard
    that there are rattlers in the Blue Hills, outside of Boston. I used to
    work as a Biologist for the Mass Mosquito Control project. The area of
    Boxboro, Stow, Acton, Harvard was crawling with snakes. But then again
    I was also prowling around the woods and swamps in those areas.
    Glad winter is here!
    

>He claimed all you have to know is where to find them.

 Don't suppose he said where...

    >Where to look??
    As I remember, he and the camera man went out in the woods. He caught
    one using a forked sticked under a small pine tree. He claimed that
    there are a lot of them but people don't recognize them due to the fact
    that the type in New England don't rattle and are dark in color...not
    looking like the typical diamondback. Another spot he captured one was
    in a bunch of rocks on a side of a mountain(like a rock slide). Out in
    western Mass(west of the Conn River) there are a lot more. Mt Tom, the
    ski area used to have a few. The backside of the mt has cliffs etc. If
    you go to their exhibit building in the park, they used to have
    pickeled rattlers and copperheads that were caught on the mt some time
    ago. Last year i guy cutting wood in Salem, NH caught one. He ended up
    driving up North and releasing it(location undisclosed). Snakes are not
    one of my favorite reptiles...but I always run into them. I've got
    black "chain" snakes all over my yard living in the stone walls(which
    I'm always rebuilding). They give you a startle. But my motto is, they
    leave me alone and show no aggression...then i leave them alone. 
    
    Lee
    

    You'd think if there were at least a small population you'd
    hear of at least someone, somewhere getting bit every few years...
                             
    Marty

    Has onyone said anything about looking at their eyes?  I realize that
    I'm not gonna get real close to any snake, but I had a wildlife
    biologist tell me when I was a kid that a sure sign of venomous or
    non-venomous was the snake's eye.  If the pupil is round, the snake is
    not venonous.  If the pupil is a slit (like a cat's eye) then the snake
    is venomous.
    
    We killed one in my parent's back yard this summer.  It had a nice,
    triangular head and it did have small fangs, not the curved, hollow
    ones that I associate with a rattler.  The pupils were totally dialated
    since it was dead, but they were perfectly round.  It looked kind of 
    like a copperhead, but because of the "eyeball" rule I'm assuming that it
    wasn't.
    
    It's a shame that all the venomous ones aren't florescent orange or
    something so that it'd be easy to tell.  If I've got to get real close
    to his eyeballs or his anal flap or whatever it was earlier I'm gonna
    assume he's venomous and walk (run) the other way...
    
    Scott
           

>  If the pupil is round, the snake is
>  not venonous.  If the pupil is a slit (like a cat's eye) then the snake
>  is venomous.
 
	Well, almost.  All the pit vipers' eyes are cat-like.  The coral
	snake's eyes are round as a garter snake.

	Could have been with that dead snake that the pupil dialated so much
	it did become round.  Try shining a light in its eye? ;-)

	AA

    
      Here in the Northeast the type of rattle snake that inhabits this
    area is called the "Timber Rattler". There was a pretty good article
    in the National Geographic on them about 3 or 4 years ago. Basically
    they said that they are very docile snakes. They live in rocky out-
    croppings and crevaces. They move very slow. Their year goes something
    like this:
    
      They come out of their dens/nests in the May/June timeframe. They'll
    travel upwards of 5 miles from their winter dens during the summer, and
    won't return to them until September when they start to den up again.
    During the summer they'll eat what your normal rattlesnake eats. Mice,
    frogs, etc. They do rattle when startled, and usually give ample
    warning of their presence... They also are just as venomous as any
    other rattlesnake...
    
      If you'd like to know where a large population of them are in New
    Hampshire, look no further than the hill behind Riley's in Hooksett.
    Strangely enough the hill is called "Rattlesnake Hill" :-). I live
    in the town below Hooksett (Auburn), and there's a street named
    "Rattlesnake Road" in town. Near the road there are (you guessed
    it) many rocky outcroppings... So, they're out there...
    
      Pit vipers (Rattlesnakes are one of them) are told from other snakes
    by their eyes (catlike with a large "brow" over the eye) and by the
    "pits" below the eyes toward the snout. Their pits are where the "heat
    receptors" are. They actually locate their prey by "heat" instead of
    by sight.  Also, one of the rattlers mortal enemies are the King
    snakes. They're more than a match for any rattler...
    
    sorry for rambling on so long...
    
    
    Joe

    If it looks like a snake, slithers like a snake or acts like a
    snake,
    
    
    
    
    Blow the S**T out of it !!!
    
    

    > DNEAST::STEVENS_JIM
    > 
    > If it looks like a snake, slithers like a snake or acts like a
    > snake,
    > 
    > Blow the S**T out of it !!!

         How depressing. I feel sorry for people like you, I really
         do. 

         You know, most of the participants in this conference delight
         in encountering snakes and other nongame animals. Go
         somewhere else with your sick advice--you are not among your
         own kind. 

         Doug

    	If it looks like a deer, wallks like a deer or acts like a 
    deer,
    
    
    Blow the S**T out of it !!!
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    	Just think if we all went around blowing the s**t out of every
    thing we didn't like. There would be nothing left. The apple/blueberry
    farmer hates deer and bear and turkeys and LOVES the yotes!!!! I hate
    Yotes, skunks, weaslels, tree-rats, etc, etc,,,, But I like to watch
    snakes. so you don't shoot the snakes that eat the mice that come into
    my house and I'll not Blow the S**T ot of the deer you like to
    watch/hunt.
    
    	Get the idea?
    
    	Steve
                       

    Boy, since DEC has hit upon hard times, NOBODY has a sense of humor
    anymore.
    
    I feel sorry for those of you who feel the need to attack just to vent
    frustration..
    
    I hate snakes...Some people hate bees. Still others hate blood
    suckers.
    
    I will not apologize, nor back down, on my original position.
    
    Jim
    

I generally read this note more than I reply, but, I was about to enter
a new note when jim entered .33, so Jim I hope you dont mind me piggy-backing.
I agree with Jim that noters are becoming less and less tolerant of OTHER
PEOPLES VIEWS. There is a whole lot more of criticizng, name calling and
sundry other comments that kinda take the fun out of reading and possibly
the sport itself. I don't think anyone in this notes file is/does flagrantly
violate game/ethical laws. It seems like sometimes something is said just
to be a little funny or maybe to lighten up a serious discussion and all
of a sudden 'it's hangin time folks'. We all enjoy the outdoors so much
that we should also enjoy this file and if it comes across from some noter
that he/she is in fact violating a law (knowingly or I would venture to say,
most probably unknowingly) my suggestion would be to point out the problem
with the particular action, both public perception and game issues, rather
than name calling or lambasting. Please dont not interpret this as flame-on,
it is just one mans observation.
Plus, since I got skunked this year and cant enter into the 'I got mine"
note I wanted to at least write somewhere.

Happy holidays to all..

Jack

    In defense of Jim, I'm not crazy about snakes either, mainly
    because by the time you realize what type they are, poisonous
    or not, your usually in a situation where your extremely startled,
    and in a potentially life threating position if it is poisonous.
    I understand the desire to protect certain species from extinction,
    but don't always support it. I know this might not be a popular
    view, but our forfathers spent litterally millions of man hours
    trying to eradicate poisonous snakes, mountain lions, wolves and
    grizzly bears from areas we live near. The reason being that you
    don have to worry about your wife/kids getting mauled/eaten/bitten
    on the way to wherever there going/playing. I think it worked pretty
    well, and I'm happy for it. Now, this might all sound kind of far
    fetched to some. We have an interesting engineer of Russian descent
    in our group. He says even today the region he grew up in is full
    of wolves, and people do get attacked. You don't go out at night,
    and if your car brakes down, you don't just hop off for a two mile
    treck to the nearest help. Each years they have huge hunting drives
    to try and eradicate the population, however they have yet to be
    successfull. I found this to be quite the interesting story!
    
    Marty

    	Well now that the fur is rubbed against the grain. This is the
    "HUNTING" note file. Killing just to kill and for the dislike of some
    creature IS NOT HUNTING!! So if you support shooting animals just cause
    your don't like them then start a notes file. I suggest you call it.
    
    		"Animal Assassination or personal pest control"
    
    	But don't call it hunting. Our name is bad enough as it is and
    don't need any more bad paper articals to defend against. 
    
	Steve And_I_am_not_in_flame_on_mode, It's_just_my_personal_position
    
    	Happy holidays

    
    re .35
    
    I believe we were fed a bunch of bull about the mountain lions and 
    wolves.  As far as I know there isn't ONE recorded incident of a wolf
    killing a human being, not one!!!!  It's a bunch of bullsh*t.  The
    government put a bounty on them because they didn't understand the
    animal.  Man intrudes into it's environment, and immediately the animal
    is at fault.  Fact is wolves  haven't been very good at adapting to man, 
    that's why they can only be found in the most remote areas.  The coyote 
    on the other hand is an example of an animal that is very good at 
    adapting to condo's, trailer parks, etc.  
    
    Snakes are the same way, just because they can be dangerous doesn't mean 
    we have the God given right to "blow the sh*t out of them".  Self
    defense is one thing or if your going to eat them is another, but shooting
    something just because you  don't like it is totally UNethical and can't 
    be tolerated by decent human beings.  Alot of prejudice in our world is 
    related to thinking of this nature, and I'm not just talking about
    animals.
    
    I wish our forefathers hadn't spent those millions of man hours killing
    predators as you suggest they did.
    
    Off my soapbox for now.
    
    Kevin
    

    Mr. Moderator,
    
    Perhaps you should delete note 808, as it does not pertain to
    hunting, but rather to a question on "are there copperheads in
    New Hampshire?"
    
    Also since this is a hunting notesfile, all references to prefered
    firearms should be moved to the firearms notesfile.
    
    As a matter of fact, the discussion about "other forms of hunting"
    should be considered as a possible no-no in this "pure hunting"
    notesfile.
    
    Could you also post directions to the "SOAPBOX" notesfile ? That way
    people who want to express an opinion or feeling about something
    would know where the proper discussion is.
    
    Thank you.
    
    

 It is perfectly reasonable for someone to hate snakes and hold the opinion
that he would like to kill every one that he sees. It is also perfectly
reasonable for another person to feel that one who holds such views is ignorant.
There's no need to fight about it, or to be offended because someone else's
opinion is different. By and large we are here for the same thing. Let's not
allow small differences to be such a cause of divisiveness...

 the Doctah

    Killing for the sake of killing is loathesome.
    
    Mark.

	I think what is being said is this is the hunting notes file and
a hunter does not just shoot some animal just because they don't like it.
That's not hunting. We have a long hard road ahead of us defending our
hunting privileges and the attitude of "shooting animals at will" just
makes it that much more difficult to defend/justify OUR existence as hunters.

	I happen to like snakes! Sorry but I do, and don't like to see them
shot just for the sake of someone not liking them. If you hunt the rattler
to eat it please bring some over as I love the taste. If you're on a hunt
for some other game and get into a dangerous position with a rattler about to
bite, SHOOT IT. I'd rather one dead snake than loose a fellow hunter. But what
I can't agree with is to shoot them at will for their dislike and let them
rot.

	If everyone reads the text of all these replies I think we'll find
we are talking a hunting subject here. Giving ammo to the anti-hunters,
and ethics, Maybe the moderator should move these to the ethics topic.

	As for the first amendment, ya I've heard of it and I think we
are using it. After all this is a discussion with all points of view being
presented, isn't it?

	Steve, remember we are all in the same pot of soup.

	Happy holidays, and good hunting.

	I tend to concur with .33 & .34, I think everyone is entitled to 
express thier opinion. I also think reading a note it is very difficult 
to always capture the intention , emotion , intonation of what is written.
I think the best policy would be to assume any entry is written with the best 
intentions. For example I don't picture the author stalking about the woods 
killing snakes for fun. I think he does'nt like snakes and if one is threating 
him, startles him or his family or is a general nuance he would not regret 
dispatching it.

	My own experience with this would be this summer. I have a small sandy 
sunny section of beach next to the dock on the lake where a good size black
snake ( King snake I think ) decided to sunbath repeatedly. I really don't 
like snakes but also won't bother it it it does'nt bother me, but, if 
my wife saw this it would be the last time she would 
swim there. I would always head down first and shoo it away before she got 
there. A couple of times I would go to move  the boat and the snake would 
startle the S**t out of me, a couple of times I went to get the shovel and 
eliminate the problem, but, the snake was always gone by the time I got back.
If it's back again this year it will be on the wrong end of the shovel.

	Along the same lines there is a muskrat that swims aroud to and from 
the island all year ammusing us with it's antics. lately I have noticed though 
that it favorite place to take a dump is... ( you guesed it) right on the same 
beach in my yard. I told my wife if the darn thing don't stop dumping there I 
am going to shoot it. She balked ( and I really did not mean it cause it's so 
fun to watch) but she suggested there must be something we could do to 
discourage it from dumping right there......

			ANY IDEAS ???

Jim

 Gee, Jim, have you thought about transplanting the snake? It's not really hard
to do. You do need a stick with a short branch on it near the end (unless
it's a small snake and you are confident in your reflexes.) :-) Pin the snake's
head down till you can grab it right behind the head. He'll probably be pretty
PO, and writhing about but if you have him right he won't be doing any biting.
Take him for a walk and let him go. It's really not a problem. I used to do it
all the time at my parent's house. My mother would really shriek like something
terrible was happening. I'd come barrelling around the house to find her eye
to eye with a snake (once was a very large black one, we called it a black
racer). Capture and relocation is easy. :-)

 The Doctah

 
	Re -.1

	No I had'nt thought of that, sounds challenging I guess I could give 
it a try, Maybe I should make sure it really is not poisoinous first though..
Thanks for the idea Doctah

Any ideas on the muskrat droppings???

> Any ideas on the muskrat droppings???

	Maybe there's someone who wants to relocate a _really_ big snake
	himself.  Transplant it to your beach.  That oughta scare the muskrat 
	away.  And it'll give the other snake something to do. ;-)

	AA

    
    Around the new home we are building, which is 3 sided by woods,
    stone walls and lots of ledge we noticed an abundance of snakes.
    This is in southern mass, near the Conn/RI lines. Also an over 
    abundance of mice and moles.  Our two cats are doing a helluva job
    on the population of these little creatures, that's for sure. 
    Back to topic; SNAKES!  My wife came off of a farm and isn't 
    afraid of these things at all. We had taught our children at a 
    very young age which snakes are common to the residential area.
    The daughter neer bothered with them but #1 son always had a coll-
    ection of something in the garage, well hidden and sometime the
    only way we found them was via odour.  Frogs, turtles, snakes,
    earth worms, salamanders and the like.  So when there was a snake
    that came around it was always (well - almost) carried gently to
    the garden area where it would do it's most good. Where we are
    building, the most popular is the grey one with the yellow ring
    around it's body behind the head.  We looked it up years ago to
    be certain. I forget the species name now.  But there are a lot
    of them and they all end up in the garden. Don't stay too long,
    but that's where we put them.  Ole Seymore, our male ( IT? ) cat
    was boxing the daylights out of a garden snake all across the 
    front yard last sept.  When I went out with the camera he decided
    that was the bell for round ten and quit.  Mary and I got a good
    laugh out of him anyway before we went out.  I put the thing in
    the stone wall, didn't even want to slither away from the cat anymore.
    Figured he'd had the course.
    
    Anyone know the name of these little grey critters?? I have yet
    to see one more'n a foot long.
    
    Fred
    
    

> the grey one with the yellow ring
> around it's body behind the head.

	Sounds like a ringneck.  Totally harmless, pretty common snake
	with many varieties along the eastern side of the US (may be throughout
	the entire US for all I know - just never seen 'em out this way).
	As I recall, the ring color matches that of the belly.

	AA

    
    I have seen way too many snakes in my lifetime, and have yet to enjoy
    them in any way, shape, or form.  However, I don't make it a habit of
    going around blowing the sh__ out of them UNLESS they are on my
    property, or I can't easily avoid them.
    
    The base note had a question about what special tools are used if you
    encounter a snake.  I prefer a 44 magnum revolver, any shotgun, or a
    big heavy hoe, but will use any darn thing I can get my hands on.
    
    The idea that a snake controls the mice population is a little on the
    ridiculous side if what I've seen on nature programs, and from what
    I've read here is correct.  The typical snake doesn't eat more than one
    mouse per day; correct me if I'm wrong.  Not a very good mouser from
    my point of view.
    
    I place snakes in the same category as mice, rats, wild domestic dogs,
    rabid animals, hornets, wasps, mosquitoes, flies, etc..
    
    Roy...
    

    
    
        Just a precautionary note on this subject if it hasnt already been
    brought up.,
    
          if you use a hoe, rake, shovel, or a board to move a poisonous
    snake DONT touch the area were the snake may have struck at the
    impliment, because snake venom NEVER LOOSES ITS POTENTCY, and the venom
    can be introduced into a cut in you skin or if you happen to place your 
    finger in you mouth it can be introduced orally.
    
         We used to use an old wringer mop with foam rubber wrapped with
    tape to catch rattlers and copperhead's in northwestern Pa. these
    snakes were used for display's at the fairs and farmshows, after each
    show the snakes were released UNHARMED,  then when the next fair came
    around we went back out and caught new snakes.
    
        The best advice is if you cant tell what kind of snake it is treat
    it as a poisonous snake, and leave it alone.
    
                                              Lee
    

 I really like snakes. I was just in southwest florida, and I was hoping
I'd encounter (on my terms of course) a coral snake. No such luck. A few
black racers was all. Nothing poisonous... :-(

    Gosh guys, sorry I don't share the same passion for snakes as you do.
    I Hate snakes.  I know that some are non poisonous, and are good for
    the environment, but damn, due to my ignorance, they will die.  If I
    see a snake, and there is no way to go around it, sorry charlie, your
    dead.  Now usually, I can turn around and run like hell.  But I just
    bought myself a pair of Rattlers brand snake chaps, so hopefully no
    problem now.
    
    bob
    

    Bob, Bob, Bob, ya gotta apply the hunters mindset to the problem.
    Imagine yourself in the B&C for the largest bow-killed
    rattlesnake ever recorded. You could start a trend - trophy
    rattlesnake hunting by bow. Set up a guide service. Make
    big $$ guiding would-be trophy ratter hunters through the palmetto
    swamps. You could write articles for 'Field & Stream' or 'Archery
    World.' Become famous! What an opportunity. 
    
    Dana ;-) ;-) ;-)

    Geez, I hate porcupines and skunks, but you won't see me kill one of
    them because it happens to be in my way.
    
    Bob, why not read up on them if as you admit, your fear is based on
    ignorance?
    
    Mark.

    Bob,
    
    	If you do have to take out one of those mean 'ol southern
    rattlers, at least save the meat. Makes for a fine meal on the
    grill. If it's small enough, put it on a hot-dog bun, cover it
    with mustard, and the wife won't suspect a thing.
    
    Red

    Tell me this, you are walking down a path in the woods.  All of a
    sudden you hear a rattling sound, and you look about 2 ft off to the
    side, and low and behold, a big 6 ft timber rattler is coiled up, ready
    to strike; what do you do?  Pet him.  I don't think so.  If you don't
    kill him, you might step on him on your way back from hunting.
    
    bob
    

    First of all, you didn't mention in your note that it was a rattler.  
    In fact, you didn't differentiate at all.  You just said you "hate snakes".
    
    But, to answer your question...
    
    a) walk around the snake at a safe distance
    
    b) backtrack and approach your destination from a different area
    
    c) leave the woods all together (afterall, the woods are full of
    snakes).
    
    Wanton killing of any animal out of hate for that animal is wrong.
    
    Mark.
    

    
    Hornets, wasps, mosquitoes, flies, ants, and roaches are all animals. 
    Let me get this straight.  Since I hate all of these, I am wrong for
    killing them just because they're near me????
    
    I also hate snakes - and yes, of any kind.  I've had a number of close
    calls in my younger days envolving snake strikes.  Fortunately I've
    been protected where they struck in most cases, and few times just
    plain luck and the snakes poor aim saved me from a nasty, and perhaps
    deadly, bite.
    
    My reaction to snakes is to shoot first and ask questions later.  If
    the snake can get away fast enough it lives.  If not, it dies.  Only
    the strong and smart survive (those smart enough to realize that I'm a
    predator, and strong enough to get out of my path quickly).
    
    Roy...

    Good analogy Roy.  I couldn't agree with you more.  As your title
    states to the effect, you don't seek and kill.  either do I.  I think
    it comes down to, to each his or her own.  Everyone does things
    differently, some people will walk away from killing a poisonous snake,
    I won't.
    
    Bob
    

    
      I run a little farm of 3 1/2 acres.I raise pygmy goats and keep
    some laying hens and pet rabbits and a few barn cats and one good
    ol hound.My 6 & 8 yr. old daughters like to play out there and 
    could tell the Toms out of the flock feeding within 50 feet of the
    house by their head color and beards.They named the deer that feed
    in the pasture and have snuck up to 20 feet from a doe with me.I
    don't hunt here but still go hunting with my buddies every where
    else.Sounds like a yuppie dream of the country,huh?
       I've thrown a bag of trash in the bin at night and had a bobcat
    come flying out past me.I've seen my dog go after a 5 foot 13 rattle
    timber rattler pushed out of my pasture when I was mowing and get
    struck on the muzzle.When he circles a tree by the chicken coop
    in the middle of the night howling I'll usually find a mangy rabid
    coon treed up there.He can usually handle the possums himself which
    may also be rabid.I've had to pull him out of a fight with a 200
    lb. black bear on the paved road my driveway comes off.I've gotta
    keep an eye on the sky ,too, for the Hawks circling my barn and
    chicken yard waiting to swoop up a kitten or chick.I lost my second
    set of windows this year to ruffled grouse.This one made it thru
    a storm and regular pane and hid behind my toilet till the dog was
    let in.
      This is MY litle patch of earth.Whatever could (not will) be of
    harm to me or mine will be taken care of,hopefully before they do
    cause harm.
     Gee,you say,I shouldn't have gotten in those poor creatures habitat
    so far out into the wilderness!Check the Nodename.I'm 5 miles from
    the Westfield MA plant and only 15 miles from the 400,000 people
    metro Springfield area.
      All those pretty little critters will just go away if you leave
    them alone.Yeah Right!I'll tell that to a kid here who was struck
    3 times on his arms while rockclimbing here a few years back.Or
    to the guy up the road who'd rather have the rodents around his
    barn than barn cats.The rattlers love his fieldstone steps at night
    so they stay warm while catching those mice.I'll tell his nephew,
    who was bowhunting turkey there when that cute little bear cub
    decided to check out the noise.Luckily there was a big enough pine
    there and he had enough arrows to poke at mama and keep her down.
    I don't have to tell my nearest neighbor.He gave up,sold out and
    left this liberal state.I saw Mama bear and her triplets headed
    his way for a nice double turkey dinner.He had chicken wire hutches,
    which wasn,t tough for the bears.He lost chickens by the dozen as
    the foxes ran the flock into frenzies working them from two sides.
    Fencing the entire yard top at least stopped the poor endangered
    hawk swoops down.
      That's what my world is really like here.What color is the sky
    over there?
                                              John Grabowski
    

	RE .-1, good note John, sounds like a nice (and fairly lively!)
	place you have chosen to call your own :-). I think I could
	just about handle all of that - *except* for the timber rattlers,
	all poisonous snakes give me the creeps! 

	I have tried to stay out of this subject (good that there is
	something to keep this file alive during the off season, though)
	as I'm not quite sure I always agree with this bit about bumping
	off the snakes when encountered. My gut feeling says this is
	exactly the right thing for survival, my mind (several generations
	away from country living and influenced by endless and enjoyed
	TV programs about cuddly and valuable wildlife of all forms) says
	this is not so. So I am torn between my fears and my acquired
	ecological awareness...

	I was fortunate enough to venture to Africa last year. Fortunately
	I was there during winter and spring (June-September) so I did
	not see nearly the amount of snakes I might have seen during the
	hot period (thank God for that!). Some of the critters they have
	down there are *mean* - believe me! The Black Mamba is the second
	longest poisonous snake (after the King Cobra), it will rise to
	shoulder height of a full grown man, strike in almost any direction
	even during the rise, it is one of the most aggressive snakes (it
	is known to attack if it feels you are in its way), its poison
	is second only to the Cape Cobra in potency but it makes up for
	this by injecting about 500 times the lethal dosis... All in all
	a pretty tough customer! And that is just *one* of the species
	(albeit one of the most feared), that leaves all the Cobras,
	the Adders (including the most common African poisonous snake
	the Puff Adder, causing more snake bites than any other African
	snake per year - poison causes gangrenous-like tissue deterioration),
	and and and... I kept having this cute little thought when we
	walked in the bush that a tree snake would fall down my neck,
	it would not need to bother to strike me I would die of a heartattack
	right there! :-}

	Up in Namibia the farmer I was staying with and his farm hand found
	a Cobra (sorry don't the kind) on one of their water holes. As the
	snakes pound the calves before they learn to keep away, the snakes are
	not welcome guests at the waterholes. In any event, the Cobra was
	dispatched with a couple of stones (I was watching from a safe 
	distance - OK just call me yellow, I'm alive :-) and thrown onto
	the flat bed truck. It was pretty stone dead, but as we stopped 
	half an hour later it was writhing its entire 5-6 foot body (probably
	just a nerve reaction). Needless to say, your fearless hero here
	decided it was prudent not to step next to the damn thing and 
	made his way inelegantly (but safe) over the side of the truck!
	Phew! Beam me up Scotty...

							- Mike

   <<< Note 808.57 by REDHWK::FULTON "A man has to know his limitations!" >>>
            -< I don't seek out and destroy, there's a difference >-

    
    Hornets, wasps, mosquitoes, flies, ants, and roaches are all animals. 

Ahem, animals?  Me thinks that they are insects.

Anywho, just to throw another $0.02 into the fray ...

I only eliminate "pests" or "varmints".  If any of these insects get into my
house - SWAT - they don't exist anymore (though I have moved an occasional
spider back outdoors where they belong).  If my garden or yard is being
threatened - again "SWAT" usually.  This makes economic sense.  I like my
garden and I refuse to feed the local woodchuck my dinner.

But, when I venture out into the woods I try to leave these things alone.
I have swatted many mosquitoes (my blood is just that - my blood - not their
dinner).  If I do see an animal that I don't like, I first try to avoid it
by backing up and going around, etc.  Now, if I thought that a snake was about
to strike and I couldn't get away I'd defend myself.

I guess the bottom line is that I WILL defend myself and my property (and my
family and ....) but when I'm in the woods and in their home I leave them be.
I don't like killing something just because its a whatever.

(One exception, if I'm hunting on a farmer's land and he/she asks me to 
help eliminate a varmint then I will - I'm helping him defend his property.

Mike

I liked John Grabowski's reply, but there was one thing that really
bothers me.  The part about the rabid animals.

Do you really think that they are rabid?  If so, why aren't you on
a crusade to get rid of them?  By rabid, I mean having rabies, which is
a deadly disease.  I know that there are vaccines for it, but why
take a chance, especially since your family dog tangles with 'em
on a regular basis.

One thing you may wish to do is to kill the raccoon that you suspect
is rabid, and have it checked.  If it is, I suspect that you should
be able to get some assistance in dealing with the problem.  If not,
then at least you would know.

I'm not advocating killing them just to have something to shoot, either.
But rabies is serious stuff.

Jerry

    Unless I'm mistaken, the only "cure" for rabies is death.  There are no
    vaccines... there have been some attempts at combating rabies with 
    Interferon, but it mostly doesn't work.
    
    Common sense dictates immediate destruction of critters suspected of
    carrying rabies... testing just confirms the fact.
    
    - Tim

    The vaccine for rabies was one of the first ever developed - by
    Louis Pasteur himself (I think Jenner developed the smallpox
    vaccine from cowpox first).  However, it must be administered
    fairly early after the victim has been bitten and it is a long and
    very painful series of injections - medical authorities usually
    prefer to obtain the animal that caused the bite and perform a
    post-mortem on it to verify rabies prior to starting the bite
    victim on the series.

	Mike

    
      I've seen a lot of newspaper articles that say to assume almost
    all of certain species are rabid starting from Conneticut and
    spreading up here to southern Wmass.Racoons are at the top of the
    list.My vet says her vet association is up to recommending rabies
    shots for all non-house cats and even for small farm animals of
    any value like my goats!It gets too expensive for me so I just do
    the dog.It's kinda hard to determine if they're healthy looking
    by flashlight at 2AM while 15 feet up a pine tree.It's recommended
    here not to even touch most varmints you take without rubber gloves
    onwhen you dispose of them and to keep any dogs away from the remains
    due to rabies,mange,lyme disease ticks etc.This just translates
    into more work and more money out of my pocket just to stay afloat
    as is.
                                                    John Grabowski
    

    
    The OLD way of curing Rabies...
    
      ...was done by a series of 21 shots on 21 consecutive days. The
    shots were administered through the stomach wall to the backside of the
    spine (from what I understand) hence the intense pain associated with
    this method! Rabies attacks the central nervous system, so the rabies
    medicine had to be put at or near the spinal column.
    
      Today, a new cure for rabies can be done by administering shots
    in the arm/backside, etc. So, there's no more need to worry about those
    21 shots through the stomach!
    
      ..We can all breath easier :-)
    
    Joe