Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    Well you got a problem. First off, running deer is like chasing cars,
    I don't believe that you can't break them unless you restrain them. 
    I would suggest that you look into getting an invisible fence installed. 
    If your not familiar with it, it is an underground wire that runs along 
    the boarder of your property which gives off a signal to a collar that 
    the dog wears. When the dog comes close to the boundary he will hear a 
    sound that he will become familiar with, for if he proceeds, he will 
    receive an electric shock. I haven't seen this system fail yet. 
    The kit to install one yourself, cost about $700.

    One of the things many people don't realize about dogs chasing deer is
    that, even if they don't catch the deer or cause physical damage, they
    are hurting the deer by forcing the deer to run, which burns off it's
    fat reserves that help get it through the winter. Many deer are found
    in the woods which died of starvation because of dogs that had run them,
    and not because of a lack of food.

    Jim

     
       As sick as this sounds...A roommate i used to have years ago was
    from very upstate Vermont and told us about how his dog (now my dog) 
    used to run deer all the time. Told us that his father and an uncle
    took some venison and let it get very spoiled and rancid and then
    put the rotten meat and the dog in a large wooden barrel (they lived
    on a farm and i guess a large wooden barrel isn't uncommon!) and
    then rolled the barrel down a small hill. Said that when the let
    the dog out of the barrel, that between the rolling around and the
    smell of the rotten meat that the dog was mighty sick and never
    attempted to chase another deer. I can't say I believed the story but
    I sure had no reason to doubt him either...I have the dog now and not
    having deer running through my yard, I haven't been able to verify his
    claim!!
    
      Al

    Well, the first reply about the wire under the ground would not work, 
    because I live on conservation land and I also have two other dogs that
    I let run loose when I'm home. (besides the expense I couldn't afford).
    
    But I have been doing some checking and someone said you get a scent,
    you can buy them in sports shops, haven't found it yet, and you put a
    cloth around the dogs collar soaked with this scent and then they get
    used to the smell, so when they are out in the woods when they smell
    the deer, they will think it's normal to smell and won't (hopefully)
    go after the deer.
    
    So, I am now in the process of locating that scent.  Jakes Sporting
    Goods in Fitchburg didn't have it.  I'm not sure of the exact name for
    it, but I guess it just smells like a deer.
    
    Oh well, in the mean time, I'm keeping my dog tied up because hunting
    season is close.
    
    Any other suggestions are welcome.
    
    Thanks
    Brenda
    

    I read an article where the authoer used an electric shock to train the
    dog... he was using young pups under a year old... this may or may not
    apply to you... "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" ;^)
    
    What he did was wrap up some venison meat with hide attached to a
    length of wire and hang it about 1" from the ground, connected to an
    electric fence, when the dog bit at the meat, he recieved a shock...
    enough to break him of the habit.  Whether this would work for older
    dogs I don't know... might be worth a try.
    
    Fra

    
    Another method is to hang a 2x4 about 12 inches in length from the
    dog's neck. Have it hang evenly with his/her knee's.
    
    The dog may walk anywhere it likes but the 2x4 would prevent him/her
    from running, as the dog ran the 2x4 would bang the knees. Believe me,
    no dog will run. 
    
    This method is good to use for dogs that chase cars.
    
    
    Rick
    

    I checked into the electric collars, but they sell for 2-300 dollars.
    
    A little out of my price range.
    
    I was also thinking of the 2X4, but where I live is surrounded by woods
    and I was afraid if she was out in the woods alone, that she may get 
    caught up by the 2X4 and hang herself.
    
    So if I can find the scent, I think that will be my best choice.
    
    Thanks again for all your replies.
    
    Any other suggestions, still welcome.
    
    Thanks
    Brenda
    

    Brenda,
    
      If all else fails, why not put the dog on a run?  
    
    Jeff

    Brenda, You really do have a problem, that can lead to more problems
    if the older dog happens to bring a deer down, the younger ones if 
    running with her will become converts. Now youve really got problems.
    Having been a Game Warden in Mass for 7.5yrs, I can tell you that
    the dogs can be shot if found chasing deer by Law enforcement Officers.
    There are also hunters, who would not hesitate in shooting dogs 
    chasing deer. We have had Officers attacked trying to seperate dogs
    chewing on a deer, I would you try something even the 2by4 it may
    hurt his legs,it works on dogs chasing cars,think of the deer with
    a dog or dogs tearing away at its hind quarters. These are the lovable
    family pet. Believe me I dont envy your problem,try something before
    it gets worse. Good Luck.
    The Warden

    Has anyone suggested seeking a professional trainers services.
    
    I admitt I didn't read every reply but I did read the one that
    said the electric collar was too expensive.. And it is but you really
    don't need to own an electric collar for this.
    
    I mean if you bought it and then sold it when you were done you
    shouldn't loose that much money or you could purhaps borrow it.
    
    My point is yes an electric collar is expensive but it is ment
    to be used many times over and for the most part is a device of a
    professional. So instead of considering purchaseing the device
    what are the alturnatives.
    
    Seek the use of a professional that owns one.
    
    Buy it and resale it after you are done.
    
    Find someone who will lend you the use of one.
    
    ??Rent one ?? I don't know of anyone doing this but maybe someone
    does?
    
Bear

    I know you came here for help and I offered some in my last reply
    but that isn't what you need.
    
    In my opinion you need a course in responsible pet ownership.
    
    It is not my intent to scold or offend you and I don't want to
    attack you but what I read is not what responsible dog ownership
    is about.
    
    The days of letting your dog run free are over. You do need to correct
    the dog so when you acconpany him on his/her walks that it does not
    break out of control and run off and chase deer. Yes you need to do
    this but you also need to look at yourself and change your attitudes
    toward your dogs. You need to confine the dogs when you are not home.
    You need to only let them out when you can supervise them and call them
    when they are getting nearly out of sight. You need to spend some
    quality time with them and train them and teach them you are the center
    of their universe. It is you they should want to please.
    
    You need to start some obediance courses.
    
    I want to say this with out offending you and with out allienating
    you. I want to express my opinions with out offense and my opinions
    aren't always right but I think you need to change your mind set
    about what responsible dog ownership is.
    
    I don't always know the answers and I am not always right but I think
    we need to discuss what this responsible dog ownership is before we can
    really cure these dogs of chaseing deer/rabbits/cats/ and a host of
    other animals it may be going after while it is unattended.
    
    We may consider the dogs health , the dogs life. We may also consider
    other dangers than just being hit by a car but think about dog Nappers
    that were promiment just a year ago or so. We need to think all the
    damage they can and will do when we are not arround. About Porky Pines
    and a host of other dangers. beleive me you are not doing your dog a
    favor by letting it run around unattended.
    
    I know this can get off into a long soap box and it is not my intent.
    It is my intent to hopefully change some of your veiws without you
    being offended/angered or even scolded.
    
    All I want to do is discuss this openingly and unemotionally as two
    friend might do.
    
    Unfortunately I do not have much time these days to respond so I am
    sure some others have similar ideas or they  help in other ways.
    
    I hope you find this helpful.
    
    Bear
    
    

   Do something NOW!, because if the MASS attitude is anything like NH's your 
dog WILL NOT MAKE THE SEASON! We have the same law with respect to killing dogs
in the woods, BUT! it is very rarely enforced when a hunter takes one down. 
I once was told by a NH Warden to kill any dog I saw in the particular
area I was hunting, as he had been chasing them all day without success.

A dog can outrun a deer (distance wise) and drive them to exhaustion hence
they have a heart attack, or starve as previously mentioned.

    BOB, if your reply was in reference to reply .8, then please read it
    again. In no way did I tell anyone to to shoot dogs in the woods. I
    simply stated that Law Enforcement officers can and will shoot dogs
    found chaseing deer. Second, that there are hunters who would do the
    same. I dont condone hunters doing that, nor have I ever suggested
    that they do it, hunters do not have the authority to do that, and
    can be held responsible for their actions. New Hampshire,Maine,Vermont
    and Mass.,Conn.,Rhode Island Laws are the same cocerning Law
    Enforcement officers un this case. If your reply was not directed
    at Me, then I take no offence. Have a Good Day.
    The Warden

    Bob, I'm sorry, I missed that one.
    The word warden threw me off.Thanks!
    The Warden

    I want to thank you all for your replies.  I am going to try a few
    things and also keep her tied when I'm home and not able to be out with
    her.
    
    I presently tie her up when I am not at home.  But when I get home I 
    try to take walks with her instead of letting her run loose with the
    other two dogs. 
    
    Someone else mentioned to me about the scent around her collar.  Which
    I will try also, I also am trying to get ahold of a trainer to see 
    what they suggest I do, but he has been unavailable when I call.
    
    I do try to spend a lot of time with the dogs.  I did not take offense
    at the note about my ownership is a factor.  I just can't see keeping
    a dog tied up while they have so much room to roam.
    
    But, I will keep her tied up at least during the hunting season.  I 
    don't want to take any chances.
    
    Thanks again, to all for your replies.  More are welcome.  I will let
    you all know what, if anything, works.
    
    Thanks
    Brenda
    

    Try getting a fresh tarsel gland and tying it to her collar. She should
    get so tired of strong deer scent that she will pay no attention to the
    scent of a live deer. If she is used to sight running deer, there is
    not much that will help excetp a check rope or electric collar.\
    
    regards
    carl

 If it hasn't been done already, I'd like to take the time to congratulate
Brenda for being such a responsible owner. If all owners took their
responsibilities to this degree, the problem of dog killed deer would be
minimal. Thanks.

 The Doctah

    	re 2
    		<.......rotten meat around a dog's neck..put in
    barrel and roll down hill..>
    
    	That's a joke man.
                     FRIEND:  "Did it work?"
    	             DOG-OWNER:  "Well, he still runs deer, but he'll never
                                  go near another barrel again!"
    
    	re 11
    		<...deer has heart attack>
    
    	When deer are forced to run for long distance in cold weather,
    they get too much cold air in their lungs and catch pneumonia.
    
    Andy
    

 Re 12: No hes an excellant warden and one of the toughest in the state, I guess 
he felt the situation warranted the help of the citizenry. His was not an all
inclusive statement but for the situation at hand.

 Re 19: Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe I read that the heart attack 
scenario is most common. 

    RE: Heart attacks
    
    We had a former Vermont warden give our fish & Game club a presentation
    on the problems of dogs running deer. Apparently in the winter the
    deer'd metabolic rate slows down dramatically. This aids in burning up
    less food supplied fuel, which is scarce.
    
    When a deer is forced to try and outrun something chasing it during
    this time frame, the sudden exertion/stress on the heart is tremendous.
    Although he didn't come right out and say "heart attack", that's the
    impression I got.
    
    This man also had several slides of deer that had been chased by dogs
    in various states of mutilation. It seems the dogs go after the rumps
    and the nose of the deer. Once the chase has ended, and the dogs become
    bored with their sport, they just up and leave. They normally do not
    eat any part of the animal. Seeing these slides made me furious. The
    response from the dog owners is normally the same: "gee warden, you
    must be mistaken....MY dog wouldn't do that!!"
    
    I've also heard that hanging the portion of the leg w/the tarsal gland
    around the dog's neck for an extended period of time will eventually
    make the dog wish it had never even seen a deer, never mind chase one.
    
    Bob

    Well, Shasta, my dog is doing pretty good.  I have been keeping her
    tied up during the day while I'm at work and when I get home she gets
    loose only when I take her for a walk.  She really doesn't seem to mind
    much, but I am going to give the Tarsal Gland Collar a try, once I find
    out where I can get some.  My father-in-law is working on that.
    
    But, the reason I am repling, is to thank everyone, and also let you
    all know, that since I have been keeping her tied, my husband and I
    have been seeing deer every night in the fields.  We see at least 2
    bucks and we have seen up to at least 5 bucks with 3 does in one field
    and 1 doe and 2 fawns in another field.  
    
    So keeping Shasta tied up seems to at least be keeping the deer in the
    same fields and not roaming as much.  So if I have to she will be
    staying tied up all during hunting season, until I can cure her,
    hopefully.
    
    Thanks again, to you all for your responses.
    
    Brenda