Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    Road blocks in general are very intimidating . I  have been
    stopped in Vermont during hunting season, Maine during fishing season,
    and Massachsetts during drunk season (we like to call them sobriety
    checkpoints). And I agree with you, you always feel pushed around
    even if you have done nothing wrong. The fact is while these roadblocks
    exist they are functioning within the law. These people ,( cops or
    wardens) believe they are doing the right thing in detaining us
    for a few minutes to look for poached deer,short fish, or drunk
    drivers. I am torn between the constitutionality of the roadblock
    and the advantage it gives to the law enforcement community to enforce
    our fish/game and drunk driving laws for the good of us all.
    It's not against the law to be intimidating or rude it's just 
    unprofessional and ignorant. Make a six egg omelette, pay the short
    fish fine and forget it.

For what it's worth, I agree with .1.  Wardens are basically empowered to 
do just about anything they want, and at times like this that seems 
unreasonable.  The service they provide, though, by stopping (or 
attempting to stop) poaching and other illegalities for the most part 
outweighs the inconvenience of a roadblock.

If you stop and look at what happened from the warden's view, things seem 
different:  you (the warden) stop someone that you know absolutely nothing 
about.  Procedures for roadblocks tell you to ask the camper/guest/fisherman 
if he has any firearms, which the person does.  The person then tells you to be 
careful with them because they are loaded (a firearm no-no anyway).  You 
are standing in an unknown person's trailer with his loaded firearms, and 
you don't know what this person will do if you find, say, a pound of 
marijuana, or a butchered doe, or a duck, etc.  I can see why he would want 
to have some "backup" in the trailer with him!

I'm not saying for a minute that you would do those type of things, but 
the warden has no way of knowing that.  I'm also not trying to justify the 
wardens' behavior - no job or empowerment justifies unprofessionalism or 
rudeness.  That's why I feel you would do a lot better to protest the rude 
and possibly abusive treatment you received as opposed to saying that the 
warden "violated your 4th amendment rights."  Let the head of the Game & Fish 
department know that they have a real a**hole working for them, that he was 
rude and abusive, etc.  If he has any other complaints against him, this 
should let someone know that this guy has problems dealing with people 
and should be reassigned or fired.  In any event, I don't think the judge is 
going to care a lot about how nice the warden was; he/she just knows that 
you have a summons.  In Georgia, when it comes down to your word against 
the warden's, YOU lose.

As for the summons for the fish, I would think that the game laws in your 
state would specifically state whether the fish had to be measured whole or 
after dressing to determine whether or not it was legal.  If they have to 
be measured whole, then you messed up by dressing them.  That's kind of 
like "Honest officer, I thought it was doe day..."

Sorry you had problems but I can see both sides,

Scott

 Let me start this response by stating that the vast majority of law
enforcement officials that I have had acquaintances and encounters with
have been helpful and positive experiences. However  I feel that there 
is no excuse for any law enforcement officer to harass you in any way 
(especially in front of your family) !!! 

 I'm sorry to hear that you were HARASSED by the wardens at the roadblock.
I've had a similar problem in Massachusetts but to a much smaller degree. 

We (my friends, father and I) deer hunt in Hancock, Mass.  We ran into this 
same jerk a couple of years in a row. We usually head to our prospective stands 
before dawn (with unloaded guns and pen lights in hand) to be on stand for 
opening season. Well to shorten up the story the warden wrote up two of my 
friends for hunting out of season. The jerk even threatened to arrest Mark 
for poaching when he protested that what he was doing was legal. ( I later 
wrote a letter to the fish and wildlife in Goshen Mass inquiring if it was 
illegal to go to your stand before dawn. The letter I received in response 
stated it was not illegal.) By the way , the warden never even checked or 
asked if the guns were loaded.
 When the same warden (environmental police) saw me with them later he tried to
identify me with one of the cars that were parked there before dawn . He 
even wanted to see my car keys to see if they matched. It so happens that
my father dropped me off there so he couldn't prove that I was there pre dawn.
This guy definitely harassed me and my patients were stretched to the maximum.

 I would like to know just exactly what search and seizure powers the do have.
I have heard that game wardens have special search privileges but don't 
really know.

 I am glad to hear that you aren't going to just pay the fine. It takes
guts, money and patients to stick up for all our rights. I was impressed
by your letter to the governor and especially impressed by the distribution 
list. Maybe you can change the way roadblocks and searches are conducted.
I certainly hope so. I trust that you'll post your results here after the 
dust settles.

    Case will have final decision August 9 1989.
    Dan

    
    re .2
    
    Sorry, but letting the head or the Fish and Game dept. know they have
    and asshole working for them is wasted breath.  They already know that.
    In fact they like this type of Warden.  These guys are measured on all
    the wrong things, they are directly measured on how many tickets they
    write, not how well they serve the people.  This is the way it is in
    Vermont anyway.  I had a similar experience, but the State's Attorney
    threw it out saying it was a bad ticket.  There was a sensible man. 
    The Warden still holds a grudge, because they like to see every ticket 
    processed, it's a slap in the face when the DA or whatever throws it
    out.  But this same warden has been honored several times for outstanding
    duty, for the most citations in a given period.  So is his behavior
    going to stop?  He's being rewarded for it for crying out loud.
    
    Kevin

    well, what happened Aug. 9th??

We'll Ya'll I have kept tract of all of you who wanted me to let you know
what the outcome would be on my court case well I have some GOOD news for all 
to pass along to your friends...
Concerning the Newport district court case......
    
                           I WON!
    
    Jim Diehl the D.A. representing the State Of Maine filed a motion this 
    morning (wednesday August 9th')to drop the State's procsecution of my case.
    Apparently this goes against the wishes of Commissioner William Vail who 
    wanted the Judge to follow thru with a decision (don't know why??).

I believe that it be might rightful' if I continue with my original demands of:

1.) Get my fish back! I don't know what right they have in illegally taking
    my belongings!

2.) Have the Commissioner produce a comprehensive educational plan so his
    Troops can have the basic's for dealing with the general public and 
    also have the necessary skills to promote tourism, vital to our survival.
    This can include going to the school systems and educate the next 
    generations of the effectiveness of good wildlife management.
    (My son thinks that Game Wardens are not nice people like policemen!)

3.) STOP the needless roadblocks! I will be getting in contact with my
    local Representative for Legislative support.

4.) Personal apology for my wife Susan and son Jonathan. 
   (I jest' might invite the media!).

I have stated these demands to Game Warden SGT. Marshall who came to my house 
on July 5, 1989 to give to Commissioner Vail.

As of this time I have not had any contact from the Govenor or the Commissioner
since the start of this whole ordeal.  I am ordering the whole case transcript 
from the courts for my permanent record and your reading enjoyment!  My lawyer
says it will take about 3 to 4 months for the transcript to come through.
Who knows might even make a good MOVIE!  Any Ideas on who would want to play 
the Warden?
    My price tag for this was $2000.00 +/- for exercising my rights!  
    And a week's vacation lost! that I was going to use for hunting season...
    how much is that worth?
    I wonder if the state, now that WE know that THEY are the GUILTY ONES of 
    breaking their OWN law, will reimburse me for my legal fees and a dozen 
    eggs?
    
Dan
    

    

    CONGRATULATIONS DAN!
    I must admit even if I thought my rights had been violated I wouldn't
    have spent two thousand dollars and a week of my hunting time to
    prove it. I hope you get your fish back.
    
    Ed.

    Well I guess it was my son's tears that tore me apart and the fact
    that he saw his dad being treated like a criminal.  What really got me
    to commit to all of this was when he told me that he "thought that 
    game wardens were good people like policemen".  
    The time lost to hunting can be made up and I'll get the $2,000.00 loan 
    paid off in a couple of years but my son will be proud of his dad forever!
    Please feel free to write to the Commissioner and to the Govenor 
    concerning this ordeal.
    dan

    RE. Dan,
    
    How long was the fish when you caught it and what was the minimum legal
    length?
    
    Mike

    The FISH was a lake trout (togue) and when in the boat measured
    18-1/4".
    The legal length for togue in Maine is 18".
    If you read today's Kennebec Journal, a local newspaper, you will find
    that it's against the law to posess any live fish.  The State is
    ingnorant in the fact that any animal beit fish/man/beast will shrink
    once killed frozen/sundried etc:;.  My fish was out of the water for 24
    hours gills were removed and wrapped in 2 individual layers of saran 
    wrap and 2 individual layers of aluminum foil and frozen pretty stiff.
    Common sense would have helped the warden in reaching a conclusion
    but obviously this was lacking.  A bit of common courtesy would have
    been extremely helpful.
    dan