Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    What?  Jeff, is this actually an attempt to be objective?  I thought
    your test for the best all-around dog would be to look at the
    registration and if it says "Laborador Retriever" then you found
    it.  :-)  How about a timed test for how many finds the dog makes 
    and either puts up within gun range or holds for the hunter.  I
    realize this would be hard to duplicate for each dog.
    	Linda

    The best all-around dog is the one that is best for what you do.
    
    A guy I know has a brit that is overwieght, can only hunt for a couple
    of hours etc. For him its perfect because he is overwieght and can
    only hunt for a couple of hours. A champion dog would run him to
    the ground.
    
    Jim

    Fortunately, I already have great dogs and don't have to give them
    aptitude test to prove to myself that I ought to keep them.  This
    is one advantage of not having labs.  You don't have the paranoia
    of thinking, "Gee does everyone think my dogs are wimpy?"
    
    Let me know if your dogs pass.  
    
    Brett.

    the perfect dog is one who dos'nt shit all over your house.... ;^)
    and can fetch the paper, and the slippers, and can take himself
    for a walk.... ;^)
    
    Fra

    
    Jeff,
    	Before you define how to test the best all around dog. Can you
    define what the best all around dog would do ????
    	I noticed you had tracking as a test, do you expext the all
    around dog to hunt like a hound, or do you want the dog to trail?
    	All of the all breed hunting trials, I have heard of are all
    done on upland game. I haven't seen much emphasis on working through
    decoys, or sitting in a blind, however they usually have at least
    one retrieve in the water.
    	Should such a dog be measured on efficiency, or style, or ???
    
    	pat.
    

    Brett,
    
    Yawn....... Those parlor pups that you call gundogs wouldn't last
    ten minutes up against a real dog like a Lab.  Little Fifi would
    panic at thought of getting her totseys wet.  And God forbid if
    the naturally curlly hair were to get a burr in it!  Do yours wear
    camo ribbons when out in the field?
    
    Jeff

    Pat,
    
    Actually I beleive that the all around dog should be just that,
    and all around hunting dog.  He should be at home in the field flushing
    game.  He should be able to trail cripples.  He should be able to
    handle blinds on land and in the water.  He should be able to handle
    multiple retrieves on land and in the water.  He should be able
    to work out of a boat, a blind, and through decoys, etc.  They should
    be able to hunt in weather from -20 to 80 degrees.  
                                                     
    Come to think of it Linda, your right, a Lab is the logical choice.
    
    Jeff                                              

    Jeff, Jeff, Jeff,
    
    The frost is eating your brain.  If you want to talk about wimpy
    dogs wearing ribbons, let's talk lab.  I have two neighbors with
    labs.  One is a run of the mill lab and the other is from some famous
    kennel in North Carolina owned by some guy named Kirby.
    
    Both of these neighbors have come and knocked at the door to ask
    me to keep Willie from beating them up.  They said that Willie play
    too rough.  It is kind of funny to look out the window and see Willie
    standing over this 80 lbs galloot cowering on his back like he's
    begging for mercy.  Boy is my neighbor embarrassed.
    
    I got really embarrassed though when I saw my 6 month old puppie
    biting the other dog as she ran him off the lawn.  Comically enough,
    this lab's name is "Buster".  My wife and I get a good chuckle out
    of that.  The neighbors are quite concerned and fearful of letting
    their 80 lb. pussies out to play.
    
    The thing is this guy with the Kirby kennels dog thinks he has the
    greatest dog in the country.  We took him out and ran him against
    my run of the mill springer that I got for free in 1985.  Willie
    flushed six birds and retrieved the four we shot.  Lab should have
    stayed in the truck, but then again I guess he liked following Willie
    around.  It was his only chance to see a bird.
    
    

    "...Willie standing over this 80lb galloot cowering on his back..."
    
    Uh Brett,  I don't know quite how to break this to you but they
    weren't fighting.  Sounds like Willamina had the hots for that Lab
    and was trying to show her affections.  
    
    
    Jeff

    Here are some stats from tests on certain dogs to find the versatile
    hunting dog. These are the only ones I have. Never heard of the
    NAVHDA either. I just found these last night.

    At least it will give you the fields they where tested in.


Tests where made by the North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association.
(average scores out of maximum 4 points)

NATURAL ABILITY TESTS 

               1     2     3     4     5     6     7     8    9
Pudelpointers  55   3.0   3.1   3.7   3.2   2.0   3.5   3.2  3.1

Griffons      119   2.7   2.7   3.0   2.6   1.8   2.8   2.9  2.6

German wire-  121   2.5   2.6   3.1   2.7   2.0   2.8   2.9  2.6
 haird pointer
Brittany       22   2.6   2.7   3.2   2.4   1.7   3.1   2.6  2.6

German short-  85   2.4   2.7   2.8   2.3   1.8   2.9   2.7  2.5
  haired pointer
Weimaraners    14   2.4   1.9   2.1   2.0   1.4   2.1   2.1  2.0

columns 
1= number of dogs entered
2= nose
3= search
4= water love
5= pointing
6= tracking
7= desire to work
8= cooperation
9= combined average


UTILITY FIELD TEST

                1  2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17
Pudelpointers  28 3.7 3.6 3.3 3.2 3.4 2.9 3.3 3.0 3.1 2.3 3.1 3.4 3.4 2.6 2.9 3.1

Griffons       27 3.0 3.3 3.0 2.8 2.5 0.8 2.2 2.0 2.2 1.2 2.6 2.2 2.4 1.3 1.6 2.8

German wire-   46 3.1 3.2 3.0 3.0 2.8 1.5 2.4 2.8 2.5 2.0 2.9 2.9 3.1 2.0 2.1 2.2
 haird pointer
Brittany        7 3.6 3.6 3.1 3.3 3.1 2.0 3.1 3.3 3.6 0.6 3.0 2.9 2.9 2.6 2.3 2.9

German short-  32 3.3 3.5 3.1 3.1 2.9 1.8 2.8 2.8 2.8 2.0 2.9 3.2 3.2 1.8 2.3 2.6
  haired pointer
Weimaraners    16 2.4 2.9 2.3 1.7 2.6 0.4 1.5 2.6 2.3 3.1 2.8 2.2 2.1 1.8 1.9 2.2

(these number kind of run together a bit, only fit so much in 80 columns)

    1= Dog Entered 
    2= Desire to work 
    3= Stamina 
    4= Nose 
    5= Search 
    6= Pointing 
    7= Steadiness to wing and shot 
    8= retrieve of shot bird 
    9= cooperation 
    10= obedience and handling 
    11= retrieve by dog track 
    12= walking at heel 
    13= remain by blind 
    14= behaviour by blind 
    15= search for duck 
    16= retrieve of duck 
    17= combined average 

    Oh!  I get it. The fact that buster's throat was lodged between
    Willie's choppers was part of the mating ritual.  Huh.  I thought
    Buster looked ****ed.
    
    ;-)

    
    Re: .10
    
    	At last someone has really touched on the versatile hunting
    dogs !!!!!!!!!!
    	Jeff, if you want a versatile all around hunting dog, get
    one of the breeds mentioned in .10 , and give your lab to a
    duck hunter !!!!!!
    
    	Ha HA hA !!!!!!!
    	pat.
    

    Pat
     With the exception of the pointing, it sounds like a NAHRA or AKC
    hunting trial for Labs. Interresting how evryone is _trying_ to teach
    there dogs what a Lab already knows!  
    
    Jeff

    
    	Jeff,
    		You've made a good point about NAHRA and AKC hunting
    	tests. They really are expanding the requirements of the retriever.
    	They have set some standards that outline the work that a good
    	working retriever should be able to handle. As a matter of fact
    	the AKC has also set up similiar tests for the pointing breeds,
    	and the flushing spaniels. These hunting tests and titles are
    	good method of encouraging the breeding of truely tested hunting
    	dogs. This includes all breeds.
    		Another point to be made here concerns the breeds that
    	were once used for hunting and lost much of their hunting instinct
    	after being bred for other purposes such as shows, or just
    	overlooked becouse maybe a breed hasn't received much popularity.
    	I think the AKC hunting tests will really help these breeds
    	come along as top quality hunters and get many of their owners
    	and breeders more involved with hunting.
    
    	pat.
    

    	I keep hearing all these wonderful things about hunting tests.
    	Where is this activity going on in Massachusetts?  It seems
    	like the AKC trials keep the springer people busy, and there
    	is not much around in the NE for other spaniel breeds?
    		Linda

    
    	Linda,
    		You have a good point ! Unfortunately, I don't think
    	that we'll see any hunting tests or field trials held in
    	Mass. unless our laws change. New Hampshire, Maine, Conn.,and
    	Vermont are all active for field trials and hunting tests. 
    		Another issue is getting all of the breed clubs to adopt/
    	support hunting tests. One reason for this is the fact that
    	field trials were started to do pretty much the same thing that
    	the hunting tests are trying to do. The thing that happened
    	in field trials is that as the breeds got better, the tests
    	got tougher or was it the other way around??? 
   	How many hunters require their dog to make a 350 yard mark,
    	or a 250 yard blind retrieve, or perform a channel blind without
    	cheating on the bank, or ....... ?????  Another thing
    	that happened is that some of the breeds that used to be compete
    	in field trials were abandoned for field trials becouse it
    	reached a point where there just weren't enough entries to
    	justify a field trial.
    		The field trial folks say that their tests reflect the
    	quality required by a dog, and to test them with easier tests
    	would reduce the quality of the dog. The hunting test folks
    	say that their tests reflect what is really expected in a hunting
    	situation. Who is right ???????????
   		I think that the hunting tests are getting more and
    	more popular and as a result we should start seeing more and
    	more hunting tests being held in N.E.
    
    	pat.
     

< Note 319.16 by BPOV04::PERRY "Every Dog Has His Day !" >

BTW: I love all dogs...except mops HA!

Which laws Pat?  The one that stopped the Shorhair folks was "No Shoot to 
Kill".  However the Pointer and Setter folks have trials at Westboro and 
down on the Cape, can't think of the name now.  Second however, to have 
trials you need people to support them, that means a number of clubs.  You 
do not have that in Mass or NE? I think.  You usually don't run flushing 
breeds against pointing breeds.  So you have to travel if you want to trial 
a dog, a pointing breed anyway.  New york has at least 10 to 15 trials 
in the Spring and the same in the Fall.  That is 10 to 15 for GSP, Brittany 
and etc.  Pardon me, I used to travel every weekend to New York, Penn and
Ohio to run dogs.  I have a very understanding wife. 

Field Trial standards are very strict.  A class dog must point, back 
retrieve (land and water), have empeccable manners and must not bite the 
judge.  And if you think trial is hard try judging or shooting for the 
handlers....but I loved it.

From trial dogs come hunting dogs and in some case vica versa, but not 
often.  And you know what the dawn hunter always gets the field trial dog 
and the field trialer...you guessed it.


Have fun and good hunting,

Bill

    Pat is quite correct in his acessment of the attitude towards field
    trials in MA.  MA will not allow a shoot to kill trial.  This
    effectively eliminates any trials for flushing breeds or retrievers.
    You have to kill birds in order to test these dogs.  The interest
    is here however.  There are alot of dog owners in MA who would love
    to be able to go to a trial in this state.  As it is now the trials
    are held 99% out of state.  As Bill said,they still hold pointer
    and setter trials in Westboro and at Miles Standish.  Wonder when
    the powers-to-be will put an end to those also?
    
    Jeff 

< Note 319.18 by BPOV02::J_AMBERSON >


<    As Bill said,they still hold pointer
<    and setter trials in Westboro and at Miles Standish.  Wonder when
<    the powers-to-be will put an end to those also?
    
The pointer folks don't have shoot to kill trials!

!!!!!REPORT!!!!!REPORT!!!!!REPORT!!!!!REPORT!!!!!REPORT!!!!!REPORT

NSTRA'S DOG OF THE YEAR TRIAL

This is an organization trying to do just what you folks are discussing.

See Gun Dog Volume 8 JAN/FEB, 1989 page 64.

There were 96 dogs entered in this years NSTRA Dog of the Year Trial.
You just cannot beat quality and the English have it.


1st Brandy'd Black Matt, a male English pointer owned/handled by Rocky 
                         Weber of Effingham, Illinois.

2nd Reno Von Maggie May, A German shorthaired pointer owned by Dale 
                         Anderson of Spokane, Washington and handled by Gene
                         Mahoney of Medical Lake, Washington. 

3rd He's Just Right, a male English Pointer owned/handled by L Dale Loveall 
                     of Columbia, Missouri.

4th Jay's Rolling On, a female English pointer owned/handled by Dave Jacobs 
                      of Stomping Ground, Kentuckey.

    re: .19
    
    	The NSTRA is not the only pointer trial that shoots birds over
    the dogs. The AKC hunting tests also shoot birds over the dogs and
    they also have strict requirements for retrieving to hand.
    	Although I love to watch the big running bird dogs, they just
    are not compatable with the hunting requirements in N.E. Although
    they would be perfect for hunting in the south and in the mid-west
    where you can actually see the dogs work.
    	Another point for NSTRA and the AKC hunting tests for pointing
    dogs is their requirement for retrieving. The tradional AKC field
    trials do not shoot birds over the dogs and as a result the dogs
    are not required to retrieve. 
    	How can you test a dogs hunting ability/skills without actually
    shooting birds over them and requiring them to retrieve to hand???
    	I think the pointer folks are changing somewhat these days!!!
    pat.
    
    

< Note 319.20 by BPOV02::PERRY "Every Dog Has His Day !" >


<    The tradional AKC field trials do not shoot birds over the dogs and as
<    a result the dogs are not required to retrieve. 
    
AKC Trials for German shorthaired points, in most cases, are shoot to kill.

BTW: A shooting dog that does not adapt to terrain does'nt win.  Mid west 
dogs come East and those that come and work out several days before a trial 
do well, those that don't work out usually get lost.  And when we go West 
our dog seem to say Oh God where do I run.  Bottom line good dogs adapt.  
They must think about it.  Dogs purchased from the East like Elhew pointers 
do well in New England, down south and out west.  So its the dog making 
adjustment for his environment.


Good hunting,
Bill
    

    
    re: .-1
    
    	I did not consider German shorthaired pointers in my assessment
    of traditional pointing dog trials. Although the german shorthaired
    pointer does indeed run field trials, they have competed more so
    with german shorthaired pointers in their own specialty clubs and
    have not "at least to my knowledge", competed successfully against
    english pointers and english setters. Two different games !!!
    	Yes dogs do adjust, but to what degree is another issue. Another
    consideration is the norm versus the exception to the rule. Field
    trial folks search far and wide to get that big running dog with
    style, speed, stamina, and nose, and after they get them they're not about
    to try to get them to hunt close , at least I wouldn't if I were
    in their shoes !   
    
    Happy Holidays to All
    pat.
    

< Note 319.22 by BPOV06::PERRY "Every Dog Has His Day !" >


    

< Field trial folks search far and wide to get that big running dog with
< style, speed, stamina, and nose, and after they get them they're not about
< to try to get them to hunt close , at least I wouldn't if I were in their
< shoes ! 

If there is an advantage to having a "bird field" this is it.  It teaches a 
dog that when I have a gun in my hand there are birds close by, so stay 
close!  I prefer to have a continueous course and kill birds on the back 
course.  This assumes that the person releasing birds knows where the 
objectives are and can ride a horse well enough to get there...Ha..Ha!

I think a few Shorthairs have competed against the continintal breeds, but 
those have been the exception and even the exceptions could not run in such 
notable trials as the Grand National.  The good Shorthair is at best an 
hour dog.    



See you later and good hunting,

Bill