Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    
    There are certainly some trade-offs your going to have to consider.
    You say- Upland birds then waterfowl along with cold days.
    
    I would get myself a German-Shorthair Pointer. Who will do everything
    you want but you would have to make a decision on real cold days
    hunting waterfowl if you think it would be to much for the dog.
    
    The German Short-Hair is Pointer, Hound, has webbed feet like Lab.
    The hair is short and the breed is excellent around family.
    
    Chek-It-Out..
    
    See Ya,
    Rick........
    

    There are Labs,
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    and then the rest of the pack.
                  
    Jeff

 Being a very biased person I would say look no further than the English
 Springer Spaniel, but its my opinion. 
 I have only owned Springers so I can only talk from my experience.
 They are over affectionate, in that they must be with you at all times.
 If your in the house they will lay right at you feet whereever you
 are. When it comes to pheasants, all the gun dog books I have read
 will tell you the Springer can't be matched. They have webbed feet
    and can be used for waterfowl also. I love mine.
    
    Jim    

    re:  < Note 311.0 by COMET::ALBERTUS "I am the NRA" >

    AA,
        
    Maybe we can get together on this.  I too am looking for a good hunting
    dog.  I live in Colorado and have the same hunting requirements that
    you mentioned (mostly pheasant).
    
    Can we talk and/or compare notes?
    
    BTW: I have the name and number of a lab-breeder (field grade) in Black
         Forest.  Let me know if you're interested.  I haven't seen his
         dogs or anything, just talked to him on the phone.
    
    +- Mark

    A slightly biased reply follows.
    
    In my humble opinion, a Lab is a great all around hunting dog. 
    First and foremost they are waterfowl dogs.  They can spend all
    day in sub zero weather, in and out of the water. They are equally
    at home in the field.  I have hunted quail, pheasant, and partridge
    with Labs.  Once trained for upland work, they can't be beat.  As
    for finding cripples, they'll do the job equally well on land as
    well as in water.  They are also great family dogs.
    
    Jeff

    According to Dave Duffy, there is no all around dog.  But if he
    had to choose just one dog for all around work, it would be a springer.
    
    Besides, labs aren't very bright.
    
    Brett. 

    I think you should also decide weather you want a pointing
    breed or a flushing breed.
    
    If you will be hunting mostly Pheasants and waterfowl
    the flushing breed is the answer.
    
    You can not go wrong with Lab or Springer providing
    you buy a pup out of good stock from eaither breed.
    
    Please do not overlook this last remark. Take up to
    a year if you have too and get the best pup you can.
    
    Do not even consider price. The money you pay now when averaged
    over the life of the dog and all the other expenses will
    be insignifacant.
    
    If you have to pay good money to get a good pup. 350.00
    should be the price of a good springer.
    
    Labs I think are closer to 400.00 or baybe even 500.00.
    
    Top money doesn't insure you a good dog... But when you find a 
    good breeding don't even think about how much it cost just 
    write the check.
    
    Now if you are looking for something in the pointing breed.
    
    then a German short haired pointer might meet the bill
    you may consider a
    
    Drathmar- They are a good universal dog and will make water
    retrieves..
    
    One thought on the long hair you could always clip the dog 
    just before hunting season to deminish the brair problem.
    
    Bear

    Re.6
    
     "Besides, labs aren't very bright."
    
    One only has to look at the facts to determine the relative merits
    of a springer vs. a LAB.  Ever see a springer retrieve a duck or
    goose?  Me either.  Rumour has it that once (if)they hit the water
    they usually require much help from there handler to get to the
    bird.  This is why all springer owners where pants with large pockets.
    They need the extra room to carry the rocks that they throw so the
    dog (sic) can find the downed bird.  Seldom do they run out of shells
    before they run out of rocks.  Many a springer owner has been lost
    due to drowning when he fell into the water while setting out dekes.
    Seems that the rocks drug them down.  Now, if they do manage to
    find the downed bird (as unlikely as this might seem), you have
    a slightly less then even chance that they will bring it back. 
    And if they do it will be in a leisurly fashion as they want to
    ENJOY there newly found meal.  A wet springer on a cold day gives
    new meaning to the word pupsicle.  They are more at home with mom
    by the fire then in a blind or in the field.  But they do look rather
    quaint with those little bows in there hair.  Now in the field they
    aren't quite as inept.  If you stick to quail and woodcock they
    should able to find _some_ birds.  Most of these however will be
    stumbled upon during there initial charge into the field.  Here
    again most springer owners will not let the dog out of the truck
    until everyone is loaded up and strategically stationed on the field.
    One hunter is the designated "dog man", this usually decided by
    drawing lots.  Low man runs the dogs.  He waits till everyone signals
    that there ready, when he gets the signal he releases the dog. 
    The sport lies in trying to hit any bird which the dog happens to
    run over in his dash down field.  Makes for interesting shooting.
    After the nano second it takes the dog to sprint down field, you
    spend another hour and half trying to pick up the dog and get to
    the next field.  The scene then repeats itself, except that real sportsmen
    let someone else be the dog man for additional fields.
    
    
    Jeff                            

    
    re.6
           We have owned quite a few Labs, and  haven't had a dumb one
    yet. In the original note he was looking for a good all around dog
    with somewhat short hair. That would be billed as a Lab, with all
    the qualities previously mentioned there is also the fact that they
    are a very protective dog with the family vs. strangers. My choice
    would be either a Lab or German Shorthaired Pointer.
    
                                                         Guy

    Jeff,
    
    You've been on the long line boat in the hot sun too long.
    
    Ducks and geese are all my dog retreived when I lived in mass cause
    the pheasant hunting stinks.  I never lost a duck.  Another thing.
    What's all this horse kaka about springers being cold all the time?
    
    My dog never froze to death and many a morning we chipped the ice
    to put the canoe in to paddle out to the blind.     
    
    All around dog?
    
    My friend, labs have never been known as pheasant dogs except in
    english style hunting.  This is where you have a GSHP (or similar)
    point the bird.  It flies up and you shoot it.  Then you collar
    the GSHP and let the lab retrieve it.  That's what labs do; retrieve.
    Springers do both admirably well.
    
    I could see if you wanted the dog for primarily duck hunting.  Then
    a lab might be a good choice.  This is where they accel.  Then I
    suppose it could also run around in the field and stumble upon
    pheasants.  But if you want a dog primarily for pheasants and think
    you might want him to swim after ducks, then you want a springer.
    If you don't like long hair, some of them have very short hair like
    most of the Saighton line.  If it has long hair, you just shave
    em down now and then.
    
    As for GSHP, I love the idea.  The thing is that I know of several
    and they are each a pain in the butt.  I suppose this reflects on
    the trainer.  I have hunted over an excellent GSHP, but that dog
    had constant training (read that everyday).  They sure are strong
    enough, no question about that.  They don't swim though, do they?
    
    Brett.  

        Jeff, I can understand bias, but the rum balls seem to have really
    taken control !
        I have both labs and springers. If I'm going duck hunting, my
    springers would stay home, only becouse I have labs. Springers
    actually make great retrievers both on land and in the water. If
    I'm going pheasant hunting, the labs will stay home, becouse this
    is the springers specialty. Labs work well in the field on pheasant,
    but their pace is a much too slow to suit my liking. If I'm going
    grouse or woodcock hunting, both labs and springers stay home, as
    I prefer setters for this type of hunting. Now these are just my
    preferences for the type and style of hunting that I do !
    	My personal thought is that there is no one all around breed.
    That's how all of these different breeds of gun dogs have come to
    be. Each breed has been bred and developed to excel in pointing,
    or retrieving, of agressively finding and flushing, or ?????????
    The list just goes on. The best thing to do, is write down the
    type of hunting that you will do most of the time and select the
    dog that best matches your requirements. 
    
    pat.
    
    	

    Re  .10
       "Ducks and geese are all my dog retrieved when I lived in mass
    cause the pheasant hunting stinks.  I never lost a duck."
    
    First one duck does not provide a significant statistical sample!
    
    Second, I hunt with a Lab and have never had a problem getting 
    pheasants in Mass.  Mayby if you used a real dog you would have
    had similar success.
    
    
    
    8*)
    
    8*)
    
    8*)
    
    
    Jeff 

    Ha, ha, ha Jeff, that is a good one.  How do you know when your
    lab has retrieved a woodcock?  By the sight of the feet poking
    out of his mouth?  That must be fun, extracting a slobber-covered
    bird from the mighty jaws.
    	;^)	Linda

    Hey Linda, know how to tell if a springer has retrieved a woodcock?
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    He asks whats for dessert.
    
    8*)
    
    
    Jeff
                             

    Jeff,
    
    Man, you're unbelievable.
    
    One duck doesn't prove anything?
    
    Are you still upset because I shot the duck that flew through mass
    in 1986?
    
    The reason pheasant hunting stinks in Mass is because every year
    I went out on opening day, I found that my spots had all become
    condo parking lots.  The only place to hunt is at Barre or 
    (what was the name of that place near you?).  That ain't hunting.
    And even at that, that idiot governor diverted all the pheasant
    funds anyway.  Has nothing to do with the dogs, which happen to
    be raising more pheasant here than you've probably seen in the
    last ten years.
    
    What .11 said is true, which was my original premise.  There is
    no all around dog.  But if you want an all around dog, get a springer.
    I suppose a lab is a good second choice if you can't find any springer
    pups.
    
    Brett.

    I'm sure you will be happy with whatever dog you pick, as long as
    it is from good hunting stock.  I haven't seen anyone who later
    regretted their choice.
    
    As for me, I decide to hunt with the same breed GOD hunts with:
    
    A LAB 8-))
    

    	Now let's talk dog!! You say you want a good dog?? then you
    better look into a Britt!! Now here's a hunting dog!!
    
    	They work field birds, point them so you can get close enough
    for a shot! Although they don't have the feet of a duck like some
    of the other mentioned breeds they can swim with the best and
    have all the retrieve of the others. They mark downed birds and
    retrieve with out the help of thrown rocks or wistles.
    
    	They hunt all birds including the ones that make the woods their
    home like the grouse, and will sit with content in a duck blind
    till a bird is downed.
    
    	Now if this won't do then please get a German Short Hair Pointer!!!
    I just logged my property of all my hickory trees had them made
    into Axe handles and need a place to peddle them!!! ;^) ;^)
    
    	with fond regards
    	Steve
    
    	P.S. the axe handles are post paid!!

    Brett, Brett, Brett,....  Did you forget to take your medication
    again today?  Lets examine this with the blinders off.  The author
    of .0 wants a dog that can hunt upland, retrieve ducks and geese
    on the water, stand up to the cold, and has short hair. Lets look
    at these requirements individually:
    
                         Lab                         Springer
                         ---                         --------
    
    upland              great                         great  ***
               
    ducks + geese       great                         fair
    
    stand up to         great                         he he he
    the cold
    
    short hair          yep                           looks like Tina Turner
                                                           
    
    Besides, who wants to hunt with a dog that looks more at home in
    the beauty parlor when they can hunt with a Lab instead?
            
    Jeff
        
    *** Bye the way I noticed that a Lab won the midwest pheasant shooting
        championships in the flushing division.  So much for the much
        heralded fluffy-dogs.

    Boy Jeff, you really know how to hurt a guy. 
    
    One serious point about springers. If you don't know the type of
    personality they have you better find out before you get one.
    
    They are over affectionate. They insist on being with you at all
    times. I don't mean just being in the house, I mean in your lap
    if that's what you allow.
    
    Alway's ready to hunt, whether your going or not. They'll beg
    insistantly for you to take them out in the field. Even if it's
    in july and it's 90 degree's. Can get irritating at times.
    
    You don't have to teach them to give their paw to you, they'er born
    doing that.
    
    They get even. If you go out with your gun and don't take them with
    you, they'll let you know how pissed they are when you get home.
    My brothers dog shit on his bed the last time he did that. (no exageration)

    Loyalty. They will give their life to get your favor, which means
    jumping through plate glass if necessary.

    Jealous. Try hugging your wife with one around, and see who starts
    begging for attention. 
    
    In all, I have owned four of them. This last time I was looking at
    other breed's and I could not pull myself away from the love of
    a springer's personality.
    
    Jim

    Jeff, Jeff, Jeff.........
    
    I disagree.  I was just reading an article in Outdoor life about
    people trying to train labs (and breed them) to point.  Next year
    you will enlighten us all by declaring the Lab as the ultimate pointer.
    
    :^)
    
    I just want to say this to AA (.0).  I just love dogs.  I mean,
    I'm not a dog nut, but I really appreciate them.  There is no breed
    of hunting dog that I dislike.  I could easily have wound up getting
    a britt and being happy with that as opposed to springers.  In fact,
    I thought about getting a brit for a second dog, but I like my first
    springer so...     Anyway, I like Springers because I feel they
    are better with pheasants, grouse and chukars while they are still
    able to retrieve my ducks.
    
    However, if all I wanted to hunt was upland game including chukars,
    I'd probably get a brit.  If I wanted a dog that swims, I'd have
    to go with a springer or a lab if I wanted to look like a yuppie.
    
    Brett.

    Brett, get the prescription checked,will ya?  
    
    re: "....people trying to train labs (and breed them) to point."
    
    Hey what can I say?  These dogs can do it all.  
    
    In all seriousness (really) I think the author of .0 has to look
    at his list of requirements and make the decision himself. Labs
    and springers are bred for different types of hunting.  They both
    do there "thing" well, and with the proper training can do well
    in the other areas also.  I happen to like Labs.  I wouldn't have
    a problem getting a springer either, provided it came equiped with
    water wings and a snorkel.
    
    
    Jeff                                            

    
    As skeet's master and Willie's master go off into a friendly
    heres mud in your face , jockular discussion of why there
    breed is better than his, I will try to get this note
    back to where it started.
    
    As I stated earlier that I think the author should decide
    if he wants a pointing breed or a flushing breed.
    
    If my memory serves me correctly he was going to hunt upland
    birds with the occasional need to " purhaps " retrieve a duck.
    
    And he was adiment about this dog having short hair.
    ( Have you reconsidered this point with having the hair cut
    back as the alternative?)
    
    Also he may want to consider where he will be keeping the
    dog inside or out. If it is inside then other considerations
    may be imprortant also. WE may not want a dog over say 50 pds.
    If that were the case then we may reconsider the smaller
    breeds i.e. springer , Britt, English Cocker, or purhaps
    a English Setter.
                                        
    
    So if we stick to our bullets 
    
    The springer is out :-(   Even though I have one that would qualify
    as short hair she is not normal hair length and trying to find
    another would be difficult.
    
    The lab is in.
    
    The German Shorthair Retriever is in
    
    And I guess the English Pointer is in.
    
    What other breeds ( that I haven't thought of ) should be considered?
    How well do these pointers Retrieve?? I don't know. 
    And what are there attitudes toward water?
    
    I think out of all the pointers that the drathmar might be your
    best all around dog but again I am sad to report that I don't
    think it qualifies on short hair requirment. Drathmars love the
    water and are willing retrievers on land and water.
    
    Getting back to the springers and the labs. It is true that
    most springers are what Jim Richards discribed but some of these
    attributes around the house are a pain in the field. It may be
    a reflection of me and not the breed but I find my springers are
    difficult to keep still in the blind and my best one at keeping
    still does so only when you stroke his head. If you stop for any
    reason he will nudge you.
    
    He will trustfully retrieve all ducks and geese and make those
    long retrieves. He will also break thru ice to make a retrieve.
    Springers are excelent water dogs.  Seasoned Labs will out shine a springer
    in my opinion if you drop a duck in a cat tail swamp so thick
    that yo will need tractor to go thru it.
    
    On the other hand Labs somtime seem almost as if they were
    on drugs. By this I mean they are are slow and deliberate.
    This atribute enables them to sit still in a blind for hours.
    however in the field they can sometimes seem like they are moving
    in slow motion.
    
    Some people prefer a slower moving dog. Not all Labs are slow.
    
    It will be difficult making your decission and in the end some
    past experience usually will out weigh all reason and you will
    get this or that because....Well.... I just like the breed.
    
    Bear
    

    As far as brush goes, does Colorado have more brush than New England?
    My Springer doesn't get to messed up. Besides, the reason why gun dog's
    that are used for flushing have thicker fur is becasue it protects them.
    They can run through thick stuff without getting cut up. Labs fur
    is short, so it will dry off quick so they wont get cold. 
    Like Pat Perry said, the breeds were used for different purposes. 
  
    Jim

    Bear,
    
    I think you mentioned that short haired springers are not the norm,
    or are sort of rare.  I just wanted to point out that I went to
    a springer trial in the Northwest a short time ago.  Every dog there
    had hair like your dog, "Rose".  They were all saightons except
    for two that I think were dewforth kennels (???).  
    
    My youngest dog (6 months) is a saighton and my oldest springer
    is just a springer.  The pup, Sheba, is very small footed and VERY
    fast.  Her hair is real short and not wavy at all.  Her leg structure
    in the rear reminds me of a rabbit or a kangaroo.  (no kidding)
    Her parents have very narrow bones and are small bodied (~30 lbs.)
    
    Willie on the other hand is real long, real tall and has put on
    a lot of meat.  He goes between 50-61 lbs. depending on season.
    He has big feet, moves at more even pace and doesn't get tired
    for about 3-4 hours.  His hair is long (he doesn't shiver on cold
    duck hunts even after he forms a coat of ice) and he is a great
    swimmer.  He crashes through thickets where Sheba tries to slip
    through a small hole when possible.
    
    I just thought I would mention this.  It is interesting to me how
    two dogs from the same breed can be so different.  Yet, their
    disposition is virtually the same and much like J. Richard described.
    
    
    Brett.

    I'm not convinced there is a big difference between Labs and springers
    on upland game.  My lab and I hunt alot with a buddy with a good
    little springer.  It's very tiny, even for a springer, and was breed
    by Ken Roebuck.
    
    The jury is still out on which dog finds the most birds.  Some days
    it's the springer, some days its the lab.  I think the springer is
    better at following a trial longer distances on pheasants, but I
    think that is more due to the springer being a year older and
    more experience than my 1 1/2 yr old lab.  Over the course of the
    season my friend shoots more pheasants than I do, but he gets out
    more.  I kill more grouse and woodcock.  It's hardly conclusive...
    
    One trick this particular springer has that I wish I could teach
    Pepper, is that she barks when she is on scent, much like a hound
    would.  It's really a nice when the dog is on a hot scent deep in
    a thicket so you can get positioned to shoot.
    
    There have been a couple of responses here claiming labs were
    sluggish.   Maybe mine is still a pup, but sluggish isn't a word
    that comes to mine.
    
    I was glad I had a lab this week when I needed her to retrieve
    a black duck out of the river a the Parker River marsh.  I took
    a couple of quick pictures as she was swimming through the floating
    icebergs with the duck in her mouth.  Boy, I hope they come out!
    
    Mark
    

    One thing that I have always looked for in a good springer is its
    size. The smaller the better. When you look at a litter the smallest
    pup will be the better choice, (my opinion, not fact). The reason
    I believe this is that the smaller pup has to fight harder for its
    food when feeding off the mother. As a result the pup is more agressive
    and works harder when hunting for birds.

    Jim

    
    re: .25
    
    	Mark, please don't take my statement out of context. I did not
    say that Labs were sluggish. I said that they were slow for my taste.
    My statement should have been that they are slow compared to a Springer
    when hunting pheasant. Also I would like to point out that I am
    always working both Labs and Springers and so I get to compare their
    performance. It's difficult to generalize becouse one dog is not
    a good representation of the breed. I have compared both these breeds
    in the water as well. I've found that both breeds will retrieve
    well in the water, but if you compare their speed swimming, the Lab
    wins out hands down. I think the Lab has many good points. They
    do make good upland dogs depending on the cover and the birds being
    hunted. They may fall short of other breeds in some areas and may
    excell in other situations. They are my personal favorite breed for
    retrieving work both on land and in water becouse of their speed,
    style, marking, and bravery, but when you even try to compare them to
    a springer on pheasants, it's not even close.
    	Both breeds are good selections for gun dog. One exceeds the
    other in different areas of performance. I could not say that over
    all, one breed is better than the other becouse that really depends
    on what breed is better for you. Do you do more duck/goose hunting
    than you do upland game, or more upland game ? This is becoming
    a funny note in terms of my dog is better than your dog !!!!!! Sort
    of sounds like the Oscar Meyer commercial song !!!!!!!!! I remember
    people joking about how you can insult my wife, but don't you "ever
    insult my dog !!!!! I won't go as far as insulting someone's wife,
    and I "certainly wouldn't" intentionally insult someone's dog" !!!!!  
    
    pat.
    

    I'd like to get some feedback regarding the temperment of the Springer.
    I too am looking at the Lab vs. the Springer.  For me the #1 criteria
    is as a pet, then as a bird hunting partner.
    
    I have two kids (5 yrs. & 3 yrs.).  We had a lab that was SUPER around
    the kids, so I'm a little biased.  When he died we went to the pound
    and came home with a German-shepherd/Lab mix puppy.  She was real cute,
    but as she got older she began to show agression/dominance over the
    kids (pecking order type stuff) and it wasn't just "puppy" antics.  I
    think it was the German Shepherd in her (please, no flames or
    testimonials about shepherds, this was my opinion) and as a result we
    had to get rid of her.  My wife said she couldn't trust the dog with
    the kids anymore.
    
    Anyway, I would love to consider a Springer, but the ones I've seen
    acted like they were always *wired* and were a little "nippy" around
    young children.  Now this is probably desirable for pheasant hunting,
    but not around the house.  So my question is...
    
    What is the general temperment on Springers?  I know that everyone has
    had good and bad experiences, but does anyone know the professional
    breeder's opinion on the Springer's temperment?
    
    In summation, from my experience a Lab offers the willingness to
    please, excellent temperment, and hunting traits.  However, if I can be
    confident that a Springer can be trusted with my kids, I would be open
    to place more emphasis on the Springer's pheasant hunting advantage.
    (I do more pheasant than water-fowl).

    As it stands right now, I'm leaning towards a Lab, but might consider
    getting a Springer *too*. (My wife is going to kill me. :-))
    
    +- Mark

    Hi Mark,
            your concerns are good. Springers have a temperment you
    have to get used to. I don't mean vicious, I mean they can't get
    enough attention. They want to play or be mushed up more than
    any other breed I have ever had. My dog is always at one of the 
    family members looking to be petted. Its been the same for anyone
    I know that has a springer. She is protective of the kids
    and I do have to watch her when stranger's come to the
    house. After she gets to know them she's alright, but I still watch
    her. Any member of my family can take a steak bone out of her
    mouth and she gives it wagging her tail. No problem with the family. 
    I did have a problem with my last springer on this, but one out
    of four ain't bad. Besides my friend had to get rid of a lab
    because it bit the kids. All breeds have there bad ones.
    
    People who don't hunt, or love the breed seem to have an adjustment 
    problem with springers. Next to a Lab they are hyper. If you get
    one and want it to live in the house, the first year you must have
    it sleep in one of those "Porta Kennel's". I recomend it for any
    dog while they'er teathing, but especially for springers. Mine
    is in the kitchen, and all my springers stayed in it the first year.
    In all they are great pets if you understand them. Pain in the but
    if you don't. I love them, and would have one just for a pet if I didn't
    hunt.  
    
    
    Good Luck
    Jim

    
    re. .28
    
    	The Springer and the Lab make super pets. I think that some
    replies earlier mentioned a portion of the Springer temperment.
    Since I have worked with many,many Springers, I hope that my input
    will help your decision. First off, let me say that Labs have to
    be right on the top of the list for temperment, and with them,should
    be the Springer. Of probably hundreds of Springer's that I have
    personally worked with, I have seen two bad ones, or I should say
    two dogs that really weren't consistant with the rest of the breed.
    Another thing to consider is that neither of these dogs were out
    of field bred lines.
    	The Springer is full of energy . They go from one end of the
    spectrum to the other in terms of confidence. I think that early
    socialization can really make a difference in this area. If left
    alone or confined in an area away from people, you are likely to
    find a very people shy type of dog. This area can develope into
    what people call fear biters, but it is something that can be avoided
    if a dog is sociaized properly. I think that this really pertains
    to all breeds. The Springer lives for their masters and I think
    that they would die for them as well. When socialized in a people
    environment they are very outgoing and friendly to a fault becouse
    they thrive for love and affection and become not just a loyal friend
    but may appear at times as your shadow. They are extremely inteligent.
    They train very easily in comparison to some of the other breeds.
    They make great watch dogs and wonderful playmates for children.
    	Just some side notes from my own experience.
    	Woke up late on a Sunday morning and went to the kitchen. On
    looking out the window, I see my 5 year old daughter out with two
    of my springer bitches. One springer is wearing a Mickey Mouse shirt
    and the other is wearing a Pierre Cardin (sp?) shirt. My daughter
    and both dogs are jumping into a pile of leaves that I raked the
    previous day and are litterally rolling over each other. My neighbors
    must think we're strange !!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!        When my
    daughter was younger and got to be a bit too rough with the dogs,
    they would actually sit on her on the floor, hold both of my daughter's
    hands to the ground with their paws, and lick the hell out of my
    daughter's face.
    	Had a water pump in the basement in the spring to pump water
    out of the basement. For some reason, the wires on the pump had
    gotten frayed and had actually shorted and started smoldering.
    At two o:clock in the morning the wires were makeing a sizzling
    type of sound that I wouldn't have heard in a deep sleep. My oldest
    Springer started barking at the cellar door, which caused me to
    wake up and investigate. When I went down stairs, I found the wires
    actually on fire, and the smoke alarm that was right above the fire
    had not activated.                                    
    
    ENOUGH !
    pat.
    

    Pat, you see many more dogs than I, so can probably give the best
    generalizations.  I'm only relating what I have seen.  It's tough
    to tell which traits are from the breed, which from the individual
    dog, and which are from the owner.
    
    Frankly, I was leaning toward a springer for it's smaller size.
    My wife decided she liked labs and didn't know much about springers
    so we happily agreed on a lab.  The bigger size of the lab was a
    problem with my daughter, who was 2 when we got the puppy.  The
    dog would run by her, just barely brush her, and she would go
    flying across the room.  Except for some occasional tears, this
    seemed to bother us more than the kid.
    
    I thought springers were hyper, since my friend's dog seemed to
    be bouncing off the walls when I was there.  Then I realized that
    my lab was bouncing off the walls when he was at our house.  Company
    tend to excite kids and dogs I guess.
    
    Mark,
    

    First, I think any _puppy_ is going to be hyper.  That what makes
    them a puppy.  Thy are either On (hyper) or Off (sleeping).  Temperment
    is a considuration.  I have only known one springer that was
    unreliable.  I haven't personally known any Labs that were, but I'm
    sure there are some.  I know Labs are good with kids, as I have
    a four yr old and a 1 yr old.  They can do ANYTHING to our dogs.
    Take birds from them, poke them in the eye, anything.  If the dogs
    get fed up, they get up and leave. The springers I know well (Pats) are
    the same way.  So if your baseing your decision on temperment, I
    don't think you could go wrong with either breed.
    
    Jeff 

    One interesting thing I learned about Labs. Ususally you'll see
    police using German Shepards to help them in their work. Well 
    a friend's father was a State cop in Connecticut. He had a black
    lab that was well decorated for herosim. The dog was also a big
    mush which made him trusted around the kids. He loved banana's.
    
    Jim

    "He loved bananas"  This is a well known phenomonon concerning Labs.
    It is thought to trace back to there roots.  Apparently, they are
    very close genetically to chimps and other primates.  This explains
    there superb intelligence.
     Springers are known to be attracted to vegetables.  This also lends
    credence to the fact that a springer has an IQ that is slightly
    higher then a head of lettuce.
                                                                   
    Jeff

    re:  < Note 311.33 by PCCAD1::RICHARDJ "Bluegrass,Music Aged to Perfection" >

�    One interesting thing I learned about Labs. Ususally you'll see
�    police using German Shepards to help them in their work. Well 
�    a friend's father was a State cop in Connecticut. He had a black
�    lab that was well decorated for herosim. The dog was also a big
�    mush which made him trusted around the kids. He loved banana's.

    Another neat thing about labs is that they are used as seeing-eyes dogs
    too.
    
    Also, our last lab **LOVED** to eat corn-cobs.  The kids called them
    "corn-bones."  :-)  I guess he was into bulk.
    
    BTW: I was talking to my daughter last night about getting another
         dog.  She made a very interesting comment (she's 5).  We were
         talking about how some dogs are real nice and some dogs aren't and
         she said that "whenever I pulled on Nelson's ears he didn't even
         care. (Nelson was a black lab, see #1518 in Canine for more info)."
         Talk about a testimonial for a family pet.  (Of course we also
         talked about not pulling on dogs ears anymore.) :-)
    
    +- Mark

I read in this note about Labs and Springers and I know that selection 
depends on game and other choices, but no one seems to mention the English 
Pointer, English Setter or German Shorthaired Pointer.  These three and 
particularly the English Pointer and English Setter are supreme bird dogs.

The English Pointer and Setter are the only bird dogs invited or that can 
qualify for competition in the Grand National in Grand Juntion Tenn.  Now I 
know none of you want Field Trial dogs, but from these dogs come the BEST 
hunting stock.  On upland game these three breeds are very good.


Your comments,
Bill

    Have you read 311.7 & 311.22
    
    Is  my grammar and spelling so bad that you just skip over them?
    
    Also GSP and britts have been mentioned.
    
    
    What I need is
    
    Nice closing working English Setter ( LLuelan, spelling suspect)
    Nice long legged Black Lab.
    2 English springer Spaniels
    2 or 3 Beagles
    
    Now this should round out all of my hunting needs just
    nicely, Thankyou very much. 
    
    Thats only -7- dogs.
    
    Bear
    
    P.S. the beagles are for rabbits.
    
    

	Well, thanks Gentlemen for your comments so far.  I got
	pretty much what I asked for and quite frankly, was surprised
	there wasn't much "dog calling" ... much.  Got a kick out of
	the chart that compared springers and labs.  Cute.

	It will be awhile before I get a chance to actually get the dog
	but I'll start looking through some local kennels shortly after 
	the holidays.

	Our family used to have two English Pointers at different times
	over which I hunted scores of quail in NW Louisiana. Damned
	good dogs!  One we had when I was a youngster in Miami (in the
	old days there was land and animals in the city's outskirts)
	brought back two live quail (at once) in her mouth.  My father
	took them out and they flushed away as if they'd left the ground.
	We never could figure out how she got ahold of two live birds
	at once.  The other was a runner but once he ran off the energy, 
	he'd settle down and work like a champ.

	Couple of quick questions ...

	Are there any kennels locally (Colorado Springs) that would be
	worthwhile to check into?

	Having read most of the other notes concerning dogs, I'm still
	confused as to what exactly the HUP command is.  Maybe I missed it
	but could use an explanation here or a pointer to where it's at.

	Too, the difference between POINTERS and FLUSHERS ... I'd assume
	that a pointer would scent the bird and hold them to the ground
	till you were ready for the shot.  Do flushers just bust the covey
	and you'd better be there for the shot?

	Last one ... any preferences over male or female (we're talking dogs
	here ... obviously)?   ;^}   
	
	thanks again,

	AA
    

    HUP is a fancy word for sit.  I've never heard anyone but Springer
    handlers use it, doesn't mean it isn't used for other dogs as well.
    
    Flushers vs Pointers
    
      A flushing dog will put a bird to flight as soon as he finds it.
    Properly trained, he will work within gunshot range.  
    
      A pointing dog will locate the bird and lock up on point.  They
    will normally range further then a flushing dog.  Properly trained
    he will hold the point untill the handler flushes the bird.
                                              
    
    male vs. female
    
      Male are sometimes thought to be bolder then females, have more
    drive, and more courageous.  They also don't come into heat.
    
      Females are sometimes thought to be less hardheaded and more
    willing to please.  They also produce pups.  
                                               
    
    Jeff

    Yes, Hup is a term used by springer handlers, since springers are
    generally more intelligent.  
    
    While it is thought that females are more willing to please, this
    hasn't been my experience.  I have a bitch and a dog.  The dog wants
    nothing more than to please.  At this point, the bitch (6 months)
    seems to have ideas of her own.  She was the alpha dog in a litter
    of 6 (realy beat on her sibblings!) and is very flamboyant.
    
    The breeders are field trialers on the Northwest circuit.  They
    and their friends are urging us to try and run her in trials but
    I don't think I have the time or the money to invest.  They call
    her "flashy".  I call her a pain in the butt and I figure it will
    take about 18 months to settle her down.    
    
    Mine may be the exception to the rule.  Her sister was as docile
    as an earthworm, therefore the trialers thought she should be shot
    or at least fixed.
    
    Maybe someone like Pat could tell us if in fact females are easier
    to work with in general.  If so, I think I have a challenge for
    him.  She's not as braindead as a lab mind you, just "self-willed".
    
    Brett.
    

    Jeff,
    
    Labs intelligent?
    
    Labs are yuppy dogs.  You see them places like on the cover of the
    preppy handbook along with golden retreivers and Irish setters.
    Truly brilliant dogs.
    
    Chimpanzees?
    
    What are you Jane Goodall?

< Note 311.37 by VELVET::GATH >
                          -< 7 dogs will do the job. >-

    Have you read 311.7 & 311.22
    
<    Is  my grammar and spelling so bad that you just skip over them?
 
Your manners are not that suave either.  I was just looking for feedback on 
the three breeds mentioned.  I'll keep my questions to myself in the 
future, thank you.

    Re.36
      Bill, I haven't had any real experience with any of the dogs you
    mentioned.  From what I have read however, they appear to be real
    good upland dogs, provided they get the right training.  Isn't the
    Grand National run strictly on quail?  Quail are an ideal bird for
    pointing breeds as they tend to hold real well.  I wonder how some
    of these dogs would do on pheasant or better yet in a duck blind.
    Don't really know, just curious.
    
    jeff

    Brett,
    
    The reason Labs are considured yuppy dogs is because everyone wants
    one.  It's kind of like shotguns.  Everyone puts down Purdey 
    owners, but deep inside they wish they had one.
    
    Now, when you think your ready, mayby just mayby, you too can hunt
    with the big boys and get a real dog.  Until then, you can keep
    hunting with the K-Mart of the dog world.
                 
    Jeff

< Note 311.43 by BPOV02::J_AMBERSON >


    
<   I wonder how some of these dogs would do on pheasant or better yet in a
    duck blind. Don't really know, just curious. 
    
    All three breeds run Pheasant Championships, Grouse and Wild Game (that 
    is whatever is on the grounds) 

    I don't know about English Pointers or Setters, but I'll match my
    German Shorthaired Pointer in a duck blind with the best.



Thanks,
Bill

< Note 311.43 by BPOV02::J_AMBERSON >


<    Isn't the Grand National run strictly on quail?  Quail are an ideal
<    bird for pointing breeds as they tend to hold real well. 


The Grand National is run using Quail not so much that they will hold, but 
rather that they recall and will stay on the same grounds.  Also the Grand 
National is a competition of endurance as well as manners.  A dog must run 
for three hours, have imppeccable manners and show ability to locate game 
(that is show where the game is he/she is pointing, he/she should not be 
looking left if the game is on his/her right).  These dogs are the cream of 
the crop.  In 1976, I think, a young bitch found 26 coveys, busted the last 
one, but still won the trial.  Anyway I think you'll get my point.

Regards,

    Bill
    
    At the Grand National do they actually shoot birds over the dogs?
    Are they required to retrieve?  How do they run the dogs, in braces?
    Are they required to do any water work?
    
    Jeff

< Note 311.47 by BPOV02::J_AMBERSON >


    Bill
    
<    At the Grand National do they actually shoot birds over the dogs?
<    Are they required to retrieve?  How do they run the dogs, in braces?
<    Are they required to do any water work?
    
No killing, no retrieves.  Dogs are run and judged in braces.  No water 
work is required.  These are lung machines that find and hold birds.  
Pointing will occur 10 to 15 yards from a coveyand I'd 
say the average animal ranges out close to 1/2 a mile, some you don't see 
very often and scouts are used.  The NORMAL hunter would not, could not 
hunt one of these dogs.  These dogs are obedient, but you need to know what 
your doing to handle one.


Regards,

    Flushers & Pointers. Its important to know the difference in relation
    to the type of game you hunt. 
    
    If your hunting pheasants, flushers are the only way to go. If you
    have a pointer that holds properly he'll come into point when he
    see's the pheasant. Pheasants run like deer, especially cocks. If
    your dog is holding point the bird will be eight miles away by the
    time you get there. Flushers like springers, put the bird up or
    catch it and bring it back alive, which happens many times. The
    advantage of having a flusher when pheasant hunting is that the
    dog does all the work for you. When I hunt, I walk along the edge
    of fields. The dog's are in the brush and will usually push the
    bird out into the field right towards you. Most of the time you
    can't see the dog, only hear their bell. If the dog where a pointer
    I would have to walk through the brush with it. 
    
    If the dog is a lab, it will come out of the brush and look for
    a command on what to do when it see's a bird. Most lab owners
    think their dogs are gods or something. You always hear them yelling,
    "goddmamit get in there".

    Jim

    Jim,
    
    that thing about the gods is great!
    
    Mr. Kellicker, 
    
    I don't think Bear was trying to give you a hard time.  I must admit
    that I too concluded that you hadn't read all the notes by the way
    you phrased your response.  Bear is one guy that would give you
    his boots if he thought it would help you enjoy your sport more.
    No sense getting your feathers ruffled among friends.  
    
    If you can find the note in here about Bear taking his shoes off
    and the scent chasing his dogs away, you'll notice that he isn't
    the most eloquent guy in the world but he is one hell of a sportsman
    and I respect him for that!
    
    Brett.
    
    P.S.  Jeff, I thought you were just kidding about liking labs, but
    now it is time that you seek professional help.  I recommend a good
    springer trainer.  By the way, we murdered the winter blackmouth
    this weekend.  Some guy right near us caught a record 33 lb'er!

    I also know Bear outside of this notesfile and agree that he will
    do anything for a fellow hunter or shooter.  He was one of the 
    few people to answer the question rather than use it as a topic 
    for humor.
    	Linda

    Brett
    
    Winter blackmouth??? I'm afraid to ask, but what is a winter blackmouth?
             
    Jeff 
    
    p.s.  I bet you can't wait for the spring thaw so that you can let
         Bootsie and Cuddles outdoors without them getting a case of the
         sniffles.

    No , Bill is right. I must work on my manners more.
    
    Thanks , Bill for bringing this to my attention.
    
    
    I have recently hunted over a nice Drathmar and have been
    hunting over LLuellan Setters out of Grouse Wing Kennel
    but I do not consider this enough experience to discuss
    setters or pointers.
    
    I would encourage those of you that do have the experience
    to partake in this discussion. I would very much enjoy
    reading about your experiences.
    
    Bill, what do you know about Elhew Pointers? ( I sure
    hope I have the spelling right or even the name right.)
    These dogs have been lined bred so long that I beleive they
    are simmilar to the status that LLuellan had in setters.
    
    I beleive they also bred out the bark in the dog?
         
    
    Sincerely, Bear

< Note 311.53 by VELVET::GATH >
    
<    Bill, what do you know about Elhew Pointers? ( I sure
<    hope I have the spelling right or even the name right.)
<    These dogs have been lined bred so long that I beleive they
<    are simmilar to the status that LLuellan had in setters.

Nothing at all, but Bill Wehle wrote Wing and Shot.  Elhew = Wehle 
backwards.

<    I beleive they also bred out the bark in the dog?

If so, good, I hate barking dogs.  Owned a kennel for 11 yrs, I have had my 
fill of barking dogs. 

And lastly, sorry for being so thin skinned, its not like me.


Regrads,

RE: .49
    
>>    Flushers & Pointers. Its important to know the difference in relation
>>    to the type of game you hunt. 
    
      I think it probably depends on how you define flushers and pointers
      more than the type of game you hunt.
    
>>    If your hunting pheasants, flushers are the only way to go.

      Sorry folks, it's time for one of the few pointer owners here
      to take a stand. I'd rather hunt pheasant over my (to quote Jeff)
      'lady's dog GSP' than most of these super flushing dogs I'm hearing
      about in here.
    
>>  If you have a pointer that holds properly he'll come into point when he
>>    see's the pheasant. Pheasants run like deer, especially cocks. If
>>    your dog is holding point the bird will be eight miles away by the
>>    time you get there.
    
      'Holds properly' is the key phrase here......do you want a dog
      who's performance is judged by the field trial standard or by
      how well he adapts to a given situation.
      Guess this is where I messed up in my training. And I'm kinda
      glad I did. Ask Mike Aho, or Guy Fisher how many pheasants have
      "run" away from my shorthair. He better not bust a point when the
      bird is holding, but when the bird has decided to run, it usually
      doesn't get away.
    
>> When I hunt, I walk along the edge of fields. The dog's are in the 
>> brush and will usually push the bird out into the field right towards
>>  you. Most of the time you can't see the dog, only hear their bell. 
>> If the dog where a pointer I would have to walk through the brush with it.
 
    I hunt edges of cover also, and alot of the time I can't see the
    pointer, can only hear his bell. But when that bell stops, I know
    to be ready, and I can be moving to the point where the bell stopped
    for the best shot. I may have some time to get a bit closer so as
    to have a shorter shot, hence less cripples and misses. And if I
    don't want to delve into the brush to flush the bird, I tell the
    dog to flush it, when I'm ready.
    
>>  Flushers like springers, put the bird up or catch it and bring it back 
>>  alive, which happens many times. 
    
    A good dog, let me rephrase that, a smart dog, won't let a bird
    run away. 
    
>> The advantage of having a flusher when pheasant hunting is that the
>> dog does all the work for you. 
    
   A springer won't clear a path for you to walk through the way a 75#
   shorthair will :>) Or help pull you out of the woods when your back 
   goes out.
    
    I wouldn't think of comparing a shorthair (mine anyway) to a Lab
    for hunting waterfowl. For retrieving, or strength in the water,
    yes, but to be able to sit quiet in a blind, no way. 

    And yes, my shorthair is a god too. I'm always yelling at him to
    "goddammit get in HERE", 'cuz he wants to run like the pointers of 
    the 'Grand' (which isn't the way we hunt in New England). Thats also 
    why I call him stupid and thickhead, cuz I can't curb his desire to hunt. 
    The kids ride him like a horse, cuz he's strong as an oxe. Strangers
    back away from the door when he answers it. And all he wants is to put 
    that 75# bulk in your lap, and get a little attention.

    Actually Jeff, there is no spring thaw here because there is no
    snow.  This is a nice moderate climate where you can fish in January
    without an auger.  Not that snow ever kept any springer from making
    a 10 hour journey to see all his pals in Massachusetts.
    
    A blackmouth is a winter run Chinook/King/Tyee Salmon that is not
    a sea run but native to the Sound.  But that's another conference.

    RE: .55
    
    	I've been known to stretch the truth a little too ;-)

< Note 311.55 by KAYGEE::SAMIAM "Where to now ???" >
                         -< More than just a pointer >-


Amen!

    Well shucks, I always thought that a pointer was supposed to hold
    point. Like when your hunting woodcock and the bird moves the dog
    moves and the bird flushes before your ready. Thats  what I learned
    about pointers at the sportsmens club, but I guess some dogs know
    how to hunt different birds differently. You just tell them before
    you head out "today pooch we're hunting woodcock so hold point until
    I'm ready. OK?" I guess some dogs are gods.
    
    Jim

    RE: .59
	Ah, now you're talking woodcock !!! Thats a totally different
    game from hunting pheasant. A woodcock is much less likely to move
    away from a pointing dog, than a pheasant. If the dog isn't crowding
    the bird too tightly I wouldn't expect too many runners. A woodcock
    would much rather fly than run. Hence the dark breast meat.
    I may get a FEW shots as you described, but thats how ALL the shots 
    are over flushers !!!!!
    
	Ever heard owners of pointing dogs use the term 're-locate'.
    
    ( notice the G at the beginning of GSP )

    Dave,
    
    I was following pretty good until you got to the part about dark breast
    meat.  What does that have to do with runners vs flushers?
                                  
    Jeff
    
    p.s.  Did Brett ever show you the cute little way Fifi sits up and
          begs for her cookie?

    As a matter of fact, fifi stood up and stole a smoked pheasant off
    the counter sunday night.  There were four plates of smoked salmon
    and one plate with pheasant.  Even though the pheasant was plucked
    and smoked for 3 hours, the 6 month old springer was able to correctly
    identify the correct plate!
    
    What a great dog!  
    
    Brett.
    

< Note 311.54 by CSSE::KELLICKER >
                              -< Pigs point too! >-

< Note 311.53 by VELVET::GATH >
    
<    Bill, what do you know about Elhew Pointers? ( I sure
<    hope I have the spelling right or even the name right.)
<    These dogs have been lined bred so long that I beleive they
<    are simmilar to the status that LLuellan had in setters.

**** Nothing at all, but Bill Wehle wrote Wing and Shot.  Elhew = Wehle 
     backwards.

Correction:

     Sorry about this, but its Bob Wehle, lost my head.

<    I beleive they also bred out the bark in the dog?

If so, good, I hate barking dogs.  Owned a kennel for 11 yrs, I have had my 
fill of barking dogs. 

And lastly, sorry for being so thin skinned, its not like me.


Regrads,

< Note 311.53 by VELVET::GATH >
    
<    Bill, what do you know about Elhew Pointers? ( I sure
<    hope I have the spelling right or even the name right.)
<    These dogs have been lined bred so long that I beleive they
<    are simmilar to the status that LLuellan had in setters.
    
I'm sorry folks, but I know more about bird dogs than I let on.

I have trained maybe a hundred flushing and pointing dogs and trialed seven
of them to AKC Championships.  For twenty years or so, I attended AKC and
American field trials as gunner, handler or judge and some times a 
combination of all three.

Bear you asked me what I knew about the Elhew pointers, well I'll let Bob 
Wehle tell you in his own words.

The following are Bob's words, and I agree 100%.

It seems that everyone has his own opinion as to what an ideal shooting dog
should be.  If you have not already selected the breed of pointing dog that you 
desire, this should be the first thing to do.  It is difficult for me to 
recommend any single breed, for the feeling runs strong for various breeds.  
However, at the expense of alienating "friends" and readers, I will attempt to 
give what guidance I can on this subject.

The pointer and setter, by record, have proven over the years to give the most
satisfying results.  It is, of course, possible to achieve succuess with other
breeds.  In the the past years, many breeds of pointing dogs have appeared on
the scene - the German Shorthaired Pointer, the Weimaraner and the Hungarian
Vizsla, to mention a few.  There are also older established breeds, such as the
Irish setter, the Gordon setter, the Brittany Spaniel and others.  In each of
these breeds, particularly the older ones, there have, in turn, been developed
two basic strains in each - those bred for conformation or show ring competition
and those bred for utility or hunting performance. 

The present day field-bred English pointer or English setter is the results of 
generations of breeding in this country based on superior performance of the 
individuals.  It seems to be the consensus of opinion that the American bred 
so-called English pointers and English setters are more suited to our kind of 
shooting and hunting country than any other strain of pointing dogs in the world
- and justly so because of the heritage behind these two breeds.

Now this does not mean that there are not good individuals of other breeds for 
most assuredly there are, but it seems to be true that the chances of getting 
the desired results are greater with a pointer or setter.

A little about Robert G. Wehle:

Since boyhood Robert G. Wehle has bred, developed and trained the top shooting 
dogs in the country.  While maintaining his amateur status in field trial 
competition, he is recognized as one of the sport's most capable trainers and 
handlers, having won many of the Open and Amateur National Championships.  Dogs 
from his famous Elhew Kennels are sought after by hunters, field trialers and 
dog breeders all over the world.  

Bob Wehle wrote Wing and Shot and many of the nation's leading dog authorities
consider "Wing and Shot" the most valuable book available on trianing dogs. 

Wing and Shot is an easy to read, step-by-step presentation of all the 
information necessary to train a fine shooting dog.

BTW: The following National Champions are a few of the fine dogs produced
by Bob Wehle: 

     National Champion Elhew Jungle
     National Champion Elhew Marksman
     National Champion Elhew Zeus
     National Champion Elhew Markable
     National Champion Elhew Huckleberry

For those intested in training their own dogs may I suggest the following:

	Gun Dog by Richard Wolters
	Water Dog by Richard Wolters
	Wing and Shot by Bob Wehle
	Practical Education of the Bird Dog by J.A. S_anchez A_ntunano
        (Does J.A.S.A. collar mean anything to anyone?)
	A book by Lytle (Sorry I can't remember the name and can't find it)

Two others you might like:

	The new knowledge of Dog Behavior by Clarence Pfaffenberger
	Genetics of the Dog (The basis of successful breeding) by Burns and 
        Fraser; Lippincott
Regards,

    As I said before I know nothing about these breeds or people
    but what would your assesment of Delmar Smith's training
    techniques? Jerone Roberson?
    
    Just as I suspected, somehow i thought there were some
    knowedgeable pointer readers
    
    Here in N.H. and Maine you need a extreemly close working
    pointer to use on Ruffed Grouse and woodcock because of
    the dense cover that these birds are in. These needs
    are unique from the mid west or even the south.
    
    I would estimate that a dog that works in the 50 yard
    range that shortens up as the cover gets heaver and
    purhaps opens up a little in field work. And some
    time 50 yards is nearly lost.
    
    I beleive this is why the Britt has such a strong following
    in New England ,Michigan and other northern states where
    these breeds seem ( my opinion ) better designed for
    hunting these spieces. 
    
    Another close working dog is a "pure" lluellan setter. Not the
    ones with American setter in them. There are only about
    lets say less than ten breeders in this country of lluellan
    setters today.
    
    They were rediscovered and imported again from one of the
    english colony's in Africa. I beleive a man named -Roor-ick-
    ( this is close to phonetic spelling not actuall spelling)
    in Kentucky imported them from Africa.
    
    I have seen these dogs and they are extreemly nice.
    Pat Perry has also worked with them.
    
    Would Elhew Pointer be a good "close working dog here in
    New England?
    
    And to the original writer of this note wouldn't a English
    Pointer be a fine Dog for hunting in Colorado? I understand
    there is quite a wait for an Elhew but I am sure it would be worth
    it.
    
    Bear 
    
    
    

   Re:60
    That's the point(no pun intended) I'm trying to make. If you are
    going to hunt woodcock or grouse primarily then a pointing breed
    is the way to go, but that dog will not be as effective hunting
    pheasants as a flusher. If pheasants are your primary game then
    the flusher especially the springer is the way to go, but the flusher
    will not be as effective as a pointer when you hunt woodcock or
    grouse. I'm not saying you can't cross over, its just picking the right dog
    that suits the type of game you hunt most. This is the advice
    most gundog books will give you. If I become a rabit hunter I'm
    gona buy a beagle, not that other breeds can't hunt rabits but I
    want the right tool to fit the job.
    
    
    
    Jim
    
    

< Note 311.66 by PCCAD1::RICHARDJ "Bluegrass,Music Aged to Perfection" >
                             -< Misunderstanding >-

<    If you are going to hunt woodcock or grouse primarily then a pointing
<    breed is the way to go, but that dog will not be as effective hunting 
<    pheasants as a flusher. If pheasants are your primary game then the
<    flusher especially the springer is the way to go, but the flusher will
<    not be as effective as a pointer when you hunt woodcock or grouse. 
    
Interesting comment.  However consider the guy who hunts pheasant for money 
(the preserve guy).  If Springers were the best dogs they would have them.  
I maybe wrong, but I don't know a Preserve that uses Springers.  They use 
pointers, setters, GSP's, Brittanies and others, but all pointing breeds to 
my knowledge.

In all the books I've read on bird dogs I know not expert that says the 
Springer is better on Pheasant than a pointing dog.

If a dog does a job your pleased with he/she is a good dog, and I agree
with that. 

Probably the unfortunate part is that no one has been able to objectively 
score the work of any breed and those that love pointing breeds will do so 
until they die and those that love flushing breed...etc.

Have fun and good hunting,

Bill
    
    

< Note 311.65 by VELVET::GATH >
                      -< I am bias, I like hunting dogs. >-

<    As I said before I know nothing about these breeds or people
<    but what would your assesment of Delmar Smith's training
<    techniques? Jerone Roberson?
    
For one thing Delmar is a great Marketeer.  When you say techniques I will 
assume ( and I know what that does) you mean his training method.  It's 
fine, but you don't become a dog trainer attending a course.  You become a 
dog trainer by working at the trade for years.  Dogs are like people, each 
has a personality of its own.  As a trainer you must assess that 
personality and go about your training with that personality in mind.  What 
I'm trying to say, and you probably already understand, is you can't use 
the same training method on every dog.  Those that own and train a small 
number of dogs usually have more troubles training than those who own and 
train many.  That is why in most cases the PRO does a better job over all 
than the Amateur, he sees more dogs.  And believe me when they start out 
they ruin a few.  However the Amateur can develop a better report with his
dog and under these case blows the doors off the PRO in competition, just
read the accomplishments of Bob Wehle in another note.


Thanks and good hunting,
Bill

    There are some preserves that use springers on guided hunts
    however it is true that for the most part some breed of 
    pointing dog out number the flushing breeds probably 100
    to 1.
    
    In my opinion this is not a reflection of dog work but gated
    by the average cliant and his lack shooting capabilities.
    
    Many people who shoot on preserves have very little skills
    at hunting or using a shotgun.
    
    The pointing dog enables them to positition everyone
    before the bird is flushed. There is also an eliment
    of increased safty .
    
    Also a pen raised phesant just isn't the same bird as a
    Wild Nebaska,colorado,kansas,Pa.bird or any other wild
    bird.
   
    
    In My opinion: 
    Mass. is  just one big Game Farm. Many of the successful
    hunters have worked out the stocking schedules . This maybe
    done simply by accident and others will go to extreems to
    figure out schedule.
    
    Not very many of the pheasants in Mass with the exception
    of purhaps the cape area are wild Pheasants that have learned
    survival.
    
    I beleive is completely wrong to assume that Pheasant hunting in
    Mass is the same as wild Pheasant hunting in any other state.
    
    There are However ways for pointing dogs to pin wild birds.
    They are usually circling methods of hunting. That is when the dog
    picks up scent he leaves the trial and makes a wide cirlce cutting
    the bird off. Working his way back to the hunter now the bird is
    trapped between the hunter and the dog.
    
    This is also done with two dogs. 
    
    I have only read and heard of this and have know idea of how
    to train a dog to do it.
    
    Another method used on wild Pheasnts is to imploy a Hawk call.
    When the dog has located a running bird usually the sound of a hawk
    will freeze a pheasant and the dog can pin the bird. In this case
    the wild pheasant is afraid of the Hawk ( a predator that hunts
    365 days a year ) and does not want to expose himself to the prey
    above.
    
    Again these are hints or methods I have only read about and cannot
    actually swear that they work.
    
    I have hunted many wild Pheasants the differance is great between
    preserve or Mass pen raised birds.
                      
    Bear

    I agree with Bear.
    Paul Kukonen(sp?) showed a film on pheasant hunting down at Ammidivill (sp?)
    shooting preserve in R.I.
    They were using Shorthaired pointers. The dog would point and the
    handler would have to go kick the pheasant in the ass to make it fly before
    the hunter shot it.
    In this case a springer would bring the bird over to the handler. How
    would you like to be holding a live pheasant with an inexperienced client
    with you ?
    
    Jim

    
    In defence of Preserves, I personally think the the hunting quality
    is muc much better on a shooting preserve than in Mass. stocked
    areas. If you hunt on a shooting preserve, another party doesn't
    shoot at you or you dog, or shoot birds that your dog put's up,
    or shoots birds on the ground. On a preserve, only one party hunts
    a designated area, not an army !!!!!!!
    Bird quality is usually ten times better on a preserve then that
    the birds hunted in some of Mass. stocked areas.
    	I do however agree that one has to hunt wild pheasants in the
    midwest to really appreciate pheasant hunting at it's best .
    
    	pat.
    

    
    re: last few
    
    	Pat's last comments about preserve hunting brings the point
    of pheasant hunting in Mass. to a head. I had one bird my dog had
    pointed, flushed and shot by another hunter this fall. He was upset
    when the dog retrieved the bird to me !!!! I gave him the bird,
    and a few comments about hunting/shooting over someone elses dog.
    He said something to me in another language and walked away.
    	The birds of the last preserve hunt we participated in were
    superb !!! Held for the pointers, and flew extremely well when 
    flushed. A much stronger and healthier bird than what you'd find
    on a WMA. We were the only ones hunting the area, and were able
    to concentrate on the dogs and the birds.
    
    	I think I'll have to add a reply to the dream hunt being a 
    combination Pheasant, sharptail, etc.... hunt out west somewhere.

    There is a new note in the CANINE conference (#1943) dedicated to
    "Questions to ask a breeder" (or something like that).
    
    Instead of duplicating the effort here, would those of you that are
    knowledgeable in this area, specifically in regards to HUNTING dogs,
    please contribute?
    
    I *am* going to get a hunting dog this spring and would truly
    appreciate your input and experiences.  I want to avoid as many
    potential problems with the breeder as possible.
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    +- Mark
    
    ps. If you don't have the CANINE conference in your notebook, press the
        SELECT key or KP7 to add the conference.

	Bear/re .65 ...
 
	>    And to the original writer of this note wouldn't a English
	>    Pointer be a fine Dog for hunting in Colorado? I understand
	>    there is quite a wait for an Elhew but I am sure it would be worth
	>    it.

	Bare with me once while I stray from the main topic ... just to fill
	in some general information.
       
	To be perfectly honest, I haven't hunted Colorado all that much
	for birds of any kind.  Some elk and deer but that's been in
	the mountains.  The plains are totally different habitat.  Deer in
	the mountains are mostly muleys while the plains are mostly whitetails.
	But I stray from the topic at hand.  Still on a learning curve 
	(somewhere towards the bottom at that) for plains hunting.

	As I think I stated earlier, I've done quite a bit of quail hunting
	in Louisiana, some pheasants in Nebraska and in New mexico (which
	had a surprising amount of birds).  The pheasants in Colorado were 
	located in cover that I wouldn't normally associate with this type
	bird.  Am used to hunting them along fence rows, harvested fields
	and the like.  These (we didn't get out after 'em until the second
	week or so) had apparently been hunted so heavily that they were
	holed up in cottontails down by the river bottomlands and in extremely
	heavy cover pretty distance from any farmed fields.  Was really 
	surprised to find any pheasant in these places.  Not used to it.
	I'm certain we walked past many birds that either ran or just
	sat tight without us ever seeing them.  Thus the query about dogs.
	We would most likely put up many more than we did if a dog was used.
	
	I'm sure an English Pointer would be perfectly satisfactory for the
	type hunting that I'll be doing.  I do believe that's what our
	family had before and they were both excellent quail dogs.  I've
	never yet used a dog for pheasants and have missed many good 
	opportunities because of that.  Hell, even a poodle running around
	our feet would have kicked up ones that we would otherwise have
	never known about.

	Here's some more ignorance showing.  Will even a shorthaired dog
	be able to stand the winters in the field?  We get 20 degree temps
	with some wind during the regular bird seasons.  I would assume
	that if a dog was kept outside (ours would probably be MY dog but
	kept in the house and part a family dog) it would be conditioned to
	the weather as the seasons changed.  I'd hate to have a dog that needed
	a sweater in the field. ;^}  And too, is it true that you don't
	HAVE to put a bow in a Springer's ears.  (many ;^} )  sorry, not
	to offend any Springer owners ... I just couldn't resist.  Probably
	just alienated half my advise panel.

	Will pick up a couple of those books mentioned a reply or so back
	and start boning up.  But, are any of you aware of a local (CXO)
	person who would be willing to spend some time answering more 
	stupid questions in person ... preferably one that has a kennel?
	I guess it's time to start doing some legwork.

	AA
    

    "is it true that you don't HAVE to put a bow in a Springers ears?"
      
    Well technically you don't have to, but the dog will sulk for days
    without it. Rumour has it that they prefer pink and chartreuse,
    although Brett's fluffys are awfully fond of the sequined variety.
                                                 
    Jeff 8*)

    Jeff,
    	And what color, pray tell, is chartreuse, for those of us who
    aren't into interior decorating?
    	:-)  Linda

    Linda,
    
    I heard that it's somewhere between flaming pink and canary yellow, 
    
    Jeff
    
    p.s.
    I'm sure the Springer parent club could give you an official answer.

    Truely wild phesants will indeed change their patterns
    to escape hunters and hunting pressure.
    
    as the season progresses and the initial masses begin to give up
    you may begin to catch them back at there favorite 
    habitat but they will be crafty.
    
    I have seen Pheasants exit field over 150 yards away shortly after
    hunters stepped in field. This is part of the reason it is common
    to use blockers out west.
    
    If what you described is what you want the dog for most
    Then I would buy a springer. It sounded to me that what
    you described would be a springers Forte
    
    I have several springers that I keep them outside all year long.
    It gets much colder here than the temperatures you have mentioned
    
    A short hair dog will have no  problem with standing the temperatures
    you mentioned providing adaquate shelter is provided. A good dog house
    with some insulation and a design tha limits the wind will
    be just fine for temps a lot lower than you mentioned. Keep it small.
    It shouldn't be much bigger than the dog standing up.
                                             
    BUt don't forget in the summer it will need to get away from the
    heet or die of exposure.
    
    If you are in need of some springer breeders in your area I
    can look thru the "Springer on the Line" a publication for
    field bred springers. Also you may want to accuire some help from
    these people in training this pup after it has reached the correct
    age.
    
    Labs I would suggest purhaps Gun Dog. or find some other leads
    from Lab people.
    
    bear
                                                 

    	That's just what I need ... some leads.  Any takers?
    
    	Once again, thanks to all of you for your information.  Will
    	most likely be back in here when I actually syart looking/learning
    	in earnest.
    
    	AA
    	

    re .64 by CSSE::KELLICKER
    
    Wow, seven champion pointers!  That's great.  It sounds like you
    are ready to move on to Springers and Labs.
    
    :-)
    
    One thing you mentioned was that few game farms have Springers and
    labs in favor of pointing breeds.  This is true.  There are two
    good reasons for that:
    
    1) If you hunt pheasant only on your game farm, then you probably
       don't need a "duck" dog or you can afford a seperate dog for
       ducks.  Therefore, versatility is less important.
    
    2) The real reason is that when you run a game farm, you have all
       kinds of hunters in to hunt.  The hunters skills will vary from
       expert to novice (maybe even first time).  The easiest dog to
       hunt behind is a pointer.  They are the easiest to read.  When
       the pointer locks on to a bird, it stops.  The bell stops and
       it very obviously found a bird or is relieving itself.
    
       Conversely, flushing dogs require much more skill from the hunter.
       The novice will not be able to read the dog until s/he has seen
       several birds flushed (at least).  Hunters who hunt with a  
       flushing dog are more a part of the hunt and have to pay close
       attention.  A well trained dog is under control and in range,
       so the hunter shouldn't have to "run" after the dog, but s/he
       *has* to be alert.  You can daydream all day and never miss a
       bird when hunting with a pointer if it holds its point.  With
       a flushing dog, you've gotta watch your dog and be a part of
       the game.  
       
       Reading a Springer takes a little practice.  I can tell when
       mine is on a bird throughhis change in body movement, increased
       bell noise, and if I can see him, his little stub of a tail wags
       so fast it becomes a blur.  I don't know how you know when Labs
       are on a bird because I never saw a lab find a live bird other
       than wounded ducks that didn't go far from where they fell. ;-)
    
       A novice simply should not be required to learn how to do this
       in a day.  S/he would miss birds that s/he paid for.  Then s/he
       would be disappointed in the hunt and tell his/her friends that
       they didn't have a good time...overcharged....couldn't get the
       birds....and you're looking for a new business.  When catering
       to the general public, you have to make things easy for them.
       They want to win the game without disappointment.
    
       People that like to hunt with flushers will bring their own dogs.
    
       
                                                                      
    I want to re-emphasize that my position is that whatever dog you
    get, you'll love.  It is like a child.  You raise it and you know
    its kinks, so you become used to it.  You will defend your dog even
    if it isn't the greatest dog because you *enjoy* your "pal" and
    that's what it's all about.
    
    Look how Jeff insists on hunting with those two galoots.  That's
    dedication!
    
    Brett.

    re  .80
    
    I agree, a flushing dog makes you much more a part of the hunt.
    And the reason I like to hunt with a flusher. A pointer will hold
    the bird until you kick it in the tail feathers, or get damn close.

    Part of the reason I hunt with a dog is I enjoy watching the dog
    work. Its doing what its been bred to do, and it loves it!
    The dogs truly enjoy working for you, and they dont like it when
    you miss. :^)
    
    A flushing dog HAS to be trained well. I hate seeing a hunter with
    dogs that cannot control them. I hate seeing any dog that is not
    trained properly. 
    
    I've been hunting with a breed that is not well known. A Flat Coated
    retriever. The dog has the look of a setter but all black. When
    my brother bought the dog, her owner would not sell any of the pups
    to anyone who was not going to use the dog in a trained environment,
    ie. hunting, field trials, hunting tests.  The breeder wanted to
    make sure the breed would not loose any of the hunting instincts
    as some goldens or labs may have due to being house pets only. As
    to how true this is, I'm not sure. But I do see a marked difference
    in my brother's dog and other breeds (that are more common) in the
    field trials I've attended. The Flat Coat seems to be a much more
    aggressive dog for the hunt and the willingness to retrieve.
    
    The Flat Coat is very friendly, and another reason why my brother
    picked the breed. I've known some guys who brag "my dog stays outside
    all year round!" Thats fine if are a breeder, and you have kennels.
    But wanting a dog for a pet, buddy, and hunting companion all in
    one is somewhat different. Raising a dog is like rasing children,
    and you get a satisfaction from that. Some say keeping a hunting
    dog in the house pushes it away from the hunting side and more to
    the pet side. I say it is in the training and can prove it with
    this dog. So gentlemen if you are looking for a dog look at the
    Flat Coat you may like them. If you have questions about the breed
    or want to know more send me mail. I can tell you tons of stories
    about the dog, but then any dog owner can. :^)
    
    Don		VLNVAX::DMICHAELSON
    

< Note 311.80 by DECWET::HELSEL "I'm the NRA" >
                           -< Move up to real dogs! >-

    
    Wow, seven champion pointers!  That's great.  It sounds like you
    are ready to move on to Springers and Labs.
    

If you own a class pointing dog you don't daydream and you don't fall 
asleep.  Watching a class pointing dog do his/her thing is a thing of 
beauty and when you have trained a few dogs you begin to look for the 
points which separate the class from the chaff.  Seeing a dog run a hedge 
row and swap ends to point a bird makes me have goose bumbs.  I don't have 
to harvest a bird, I just want to see the intensity in the dog and the 
control and manners.....its just beautiful.  I don't mean to be 
judgemental, but I can get a German shepard to flush birds.  And I can get 
a pig to point.

Brett you are right in saying that the hunter will buy a pup and love it 
regardless of its performance.  Those that field trial will not: I can feed 
a class dog for the same price as I can feed a poor dog, so I work for the 
class.

Happy hunting,
Bill

    Hey Bill, that thing about the cost of dog food is pretty funny.
    It's too bad you live so far away.  I'd like to see your dogs work.
    
    I didn't say you'd love your dog regardless of performance though.
    I meant you'd like your dog regardless of breed, which implies you'd
    learn to appreciate that breed's style of hunting.  This is true
    ubnless you get superflake, which happened to a friend of mine who
    bought a Brit that has a head problem.
    
    By the way, there are also springer trials along with pointer trials.
    A springer that stops to point a bird is washed out for having a
    soft flush.  So what makes a good trial dog to you doesn't make
    a good trial dog to someone else.
    
    You are correct, however, I want a hunting dog and not a trial dog.
    I have two trialers here in Washington that are asking if they can
    buy my pup for a dollar temporarily and run her in trials.  They
    think she's got it.  So far I've declined.  I'm sure she'd learn
    good habits from great trainers, but we want her around so she'll
    bond with us.  She'll be a great hunter in her time.  
    
    Since the guy who started the note wants a hunting dog, I think
    a springer is a good choice, but there are certainly others.  I
    thought I wanted a pointer too, but I saw my eldest dog's parents
    working one season in Pepperell and really enjoyed watching them
    pump through some corn.  Just watching them pound those stalks
    really got me psyched.  The two of them were working together,
    communicating with each other, and with their owner with such great
    raport!  When I talked to the owner and he told me he had a pup....
    well, that was it.  I brought home a great pup that still gets my
    heart pumping every time I drop the shells in the chambers and
    give hime the signal to rip it up.
                 
    My wife loves him too because he knows how to flirt with her in
    the kitchen.  You should see some of the stuff he walks out of there
    with.
    
    Happy trialing,
    
    Brett.

    Re: .74
    	I hunt my shorthairs All  Year   Long. 3 GSP's and a Weimaraner.
    YEP! Fur and Fowl. In the spring we Camera Hunt the Migrating Woodcock
    Population. Some Shorthair Pointer (generic dogs) dogs have had,
    thru Show Breeding,  their coats Thin-ed but Most dogs I have
    seen have the requisite "DENSE" coat. This morning the wind chill
    factor was -24 degrees  when we got back into the truck. I just
    use common sense when boarding them outside.  A "right-sized" kennel
    box insulated with 2" styrofoam, a door and some warm-dry-bedding works
    great. The only real cold weather phenomenon I have seen is that
    the "buggers" eat twice as much. Their metabolism increases
    dramatically in cold weather..Don't let them be tied out without
    cover (read kennel 'em) or haul them around in the back of an open
    pick-up and they'll be fine. 
    
    
    
    Now owner of Five on the ramp and Ten plus in the hangar.
    Jack
   
	

    Things are a little slow in the hunting world, so I just thought
    I'd enter this for your amusement.
    
    Yesterday my wife and I went salmon fishing.  I usually do something
    special with my older dog because he thinks  the puppy has displaced
    him as far as the attention getter.  We hadn't made any trips to the 
    lumber yard or any of the usual special things this weekend so we 
    decided to take the dog fishing with us.
    
    I usually don't take him fishing because he stares at all the ducks and
    seagulls and can't figure out what the game is.  I figure it's torture
    for him.
    
    Yesterday the salmon fishing was slow.  After several hours I caught this
    big ole ratfish.  It was mean and nasty.  At the time, the dog was sitting 
    on the bow seat and I landed the rat fish on the deck right below the dog.
    My wife and I started laughing because the dog was hanging over the end
    of the seat in a position ready to pounce.  His face was so intent on this
    fish and then he sort of gave him a throaty growl.  He never pounced but it
    was so great to see him reason this whole thing out.
    
    "Small game animal.....must be my responsibility......don't move sucker
    or your a$$ is mine!!!!!"
    
    We rewarded him with a couple good pats and rubs for his outstanding
    contribution in the catching of a large trash fish.
    
    /brett
    

    I'm new to notes, so any mistakes---oops! Anyway, I don't knwo how many
    of you people have hunted any type of birds in Colorado, the question
    that I understood at the start of this note was a dog(versitile) for 
    the type of hunting Colorado offers.  I have hunted behind some
    fantastic Springers, even better Shorthairs, but the dog most used out
    here is the Lab...I'm not putting any breed down....They all have their
    places...But what AA seems to need is an upland game dog, that can do
    water retrieves...and hang out in a blind on the coldiest of days..And
    I'm talking "COLD".  Personally, I hunt behind a lab...Probably could 
    tell...He'll hunt anything from Dove too Goose...But as stated earlier
    and I agree, You have to pick the breed of dog that suits your hunting/
    family needs...This stuff about this dog breed is better than that dog
    breed, to me is fluff...I got to see the Colorado FC for Britts...WHAT
    A SHOW..ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBELE" but the breed is not for me...A Lab
    will do just fine...Sluggish, or thick as he may be...I'll run him with
    any dog and have fun doing it---so will he---Good Hunting! 

	Welp, I've obtained the dog.  Since everyone had their opinions
	on what breed is best, I decided to get a mutt and cover all
	the bases.  ;-)

	There was/is no way I could afford a coupla hundred for a pup.
	Well, afford maybe but justify .... nope.

	When I was growing up we picked up two pointers from people
	that just had pointer pups ... no pedigrees, just plain ol' pups.
	Both did extremely well.

	Figured I'd give it a try again ... a great experiment.
	
	This pup is a lab/golden retriever mix, was the most curious
	and energetic of a litter of nine, a female, black as night
	(looks just like a lab pup except for a white rear toe) ...
	we'll see.  Oh yeah, she's 4 weeks old and sleeps _a_bunch_.

	Going through all the training/frustration notes, etc. to bone
	up as it's been a good 15 years since I've done any dog training.

	I hope I do as well as the pup.

	AA

	Thanks again for all the input ... I'll be tapping ya'll again 
	soon I'm sure.

    I had a lab/golden cross named Trapper that died a couple of months
    ago.  He was one of the best pheasent dogs I ever saw.  Good luck
    with your new pup
    
    Jeff

    re: .88
    
    >I had a lab/golden cross named trapper that died a couple of months
    >ago.  He was one of the best pheasant dogs I ever saw.
    
    I believe that.  You have labs, right?
    
    :-)
    
    re: .87
    
    Enjoy your new friend!
    
    /brett

        Does anyone know where I can purchase the book "Wing & Shot"
         by Bob Wehle. I have looked in the Augusta area book store and
         was unable to loacte it.
    

    Mike,
    Try GUN DOG MAGAZINE's Bookshelf.  You can get it mail order through
    them.
    Sue
    

           I found the name of the publisher of "Wing & Shot" and have
    ordered a copy directly from them for $25 post paid.
    
    
                              Country Press
    
                                  Rt. #1
    
                              Henderson, N.Y.
    
                                            13650    

    Well, I'm also looking for a Gundog. So as not to start another
    debate over the merits of Labs and the other breeds..... I've
    settled on one of the other breeds.... a Springer. I have a golden
    that is 16 months old that I did a little hunting with last year.
    
    My primary goal is to get a companion for her, she now has to live
    the kennel outside full time. My son has allergies to dogs. So, when
    my wife said we should get another dog that is smaller naturally
    I suggested a hunting breed.... what would you have done?
    
    Anyway, I did call Pat Perry and spoke with his wife. They currently
    have puppies, a puppy is my second choice. I may get a puppy if I 
    can't find the right adult Springer for about the same value as one
    of Pats' puppies.

    Unfortunately I don't have the capital to send on a finished Gundog.

    So, what I'm looking for is a female English Springer Spaniel
    from field or hunting lines that someone is trying to place in a
    good home.
    
    Any help would be greatly appreciated.
    
    Thanks,
    Michael