Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    Dave,
      I read the article also.  The quote I remember best was from some
    guy who had just been arrested, it went something like this.
    
    "Why should I care about the ducks, nobody left me any buffalo to
    shoot."
    
    I too have a three year old son, who is already showing an interest
    in going hunting with Dad.  I dream of the day when Eric and I go
    out together with his dog and bag a duck.  Articles like this make
    me wonder if it is just a dream.  
    
    Scenes such as are depicted in that article are more ammo for the
    anti's.  No wonder our image as hunters is always in question.
    
    Jeff

    	Sounds like a grat reason to ban hunting altogether,,right????
    

    Who should be banned from hunting?
    
    I did not recconize the name: Bourbeau
    
    Is that tung in cheak?  ( my spellings are always suspect)
    
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    More on this subject. In my opinion people who so knowingly violate the law
    should be arrested on a felony charge. put in jail and upon
    getting out never be perrmitted to own a gun or be in possion of one.
    
    Now I am not talking about 1 duck over because sometimes
    mistakes happen. I don't like them but I will admitt
    that they happen . I would even allow you 2 ducks over.
    
    But when you get into the numbers as quoated in this article
    these people shouldn't be allowed to hunt ever again.
    
    Anywhere 
    
    Anyplace
    
    Anyhow.
    
    How many ducks you break the law with and still remain in
    slap the hand pay 200.00 I will let them decide.
    
    But I think when you get up over the possible accidental numbers
    (Lets say 4 ) Then it should be a severe punishment.
    
    The same for deer. I beleive someone can acciddently kill
    more than one deer and I don't condone it but there are
    accidents ( I guess ) . 
    
    But when you come across someone who has seven deer
    dead like I did once there is nothing possibly accidental about
    it. 
    
    Or how about the guy I came across two weeks before the Mass deer
    season with a 308 and a four pointer he was dragging out .
    
    
    I would have such flagrant violations classified as fellonies.
    
    
    One more thing, It is possible in many states to travel to an adjoining
    state and hunt deer after being prosicuted ( sp ) and found
    gilty of similar charges.
    
    For instance Pa . has some strict laws and you will lose your license
    if are convicted of some, like poaching a deer. So what you do is
    travel to west Virginia, ohio, New York, New Jersy, or any other
    state and buy a non resident license....
    
    I would like to make this impossible.. If you loose your hunting
    privledges in any state I would like to see it where you couldn't
    hunt in North America for that period. ( as the 5 year example.)
    
    BEAR
                 
    
    

    	Right on, Bear.  The penalties should be so strict as to
    	prevent people from even considering doing this sort of 
    	thing.  It is a shame that for 200 hunters sticking
    	strictly to the bag and possession limits, one person
    	can undo all that population management.
    		Linda

After reading that article I was lets say PISSED! I do agree that a few
"mistakes" happen, but 100 ducks? I think loss of license is a BIG joke.
If the guy is out there with a hundred ducks, do you really think he or she
gives a damn whether they have a license or not? I doubt that not having a 
license would matter to them. What (In my opinion) should happen is: They
get a fine for each duck over possession limits. So figure they fine you
$200 a duck, 100 ducks X $200 = $20,000. That would start paying for a few
helicopters, plus they might think loosing there house may not be worth
all them ducks.

Rich

    rich, I like the 20,000 dollar fine but I would insist on
    a fellony charges also because felons are not allowed
    to own or be in posseion of firearms. It would in my opinion
    really clean all of this up quickly.
    
    

    I agree with 180.6, add a felony charge to the fine if he is
    showing disrespect at the hunting laws he probably has disresepct
    for the proper use of a gun and in that case he doesn't deserve
    to own one, there is no need you that type of sh-t.
    
    Tony

    Good point!

         My wife's uncle, a pastor in Louisiana, visited us a few
         weeks ago and when he learned that I hunted ducks he
         commented on the fantastic Louisiana duck hunting. I replied
         that unfortunately his state was known more for its poaching
         than its ducks. He readily agreed and said there was
         widespread disregard for all Louisiana fish and game laws. The
         prime example he gave was the alarming decline in the red
         snapper population. The state is trying to cut back on the
         harvest, but the fishermen continue to bring in as many as
         they can catch. 

         Doug

    This note reminded me of another story I heard while in 
    Vermont last year at Underhill Rod and Gun club.
    
    Now this is a story and I can not vouch to it being 100% true
    but I beleive it is at least 75% true. 
    
    Well Vermont hired it very first (Woman) Game Warden.
    She had been working about a year when she was arrested
    for shooting too many ducks. Not one or two but I don't
    know many she had so I won't venture to guess.
    
    There were several other violations against her.
    Hunting with lead shot in a steel shot "Only" zone.
    
    and some others. 
    
    As I remember there were at least 3 viloations like
    mayme no pug in the gun things like that up and
    above an overharvest of ducks.
    
    Do any of you vermonters have more acurate information.
    
    I would admit that her overharvest wasn't any where
    near the amounts describe in the article in the base note
    however that was Vermont and not Louisiana.
    
    bear
    
    

    	re. .3,,,Bear___ I'm George Bourbeau in Colorado Springs. That
    comment about banning hunting was tongue-in-cheek, but my point
    was that these are the types on incidents that the anti-hunting
    folks latch onto to try to further their cause. Just like
    the anti-gunners do with every incident involving a gun.
    	A big part of the problem is that when we see a game violation,
    we,as a whole, tend to look the other way,no matter how disgusted
    it might make us. It would probably be better if we told the offender
    how we feel,and/or turn them in. 
    	If we want to keep the privilege to hunt, we have to take some
    of the responsibility.
    
    	Enough preaching,
    		George
    

    From talking with local Mass. game wardens and from what I gather
    other states, is that the court system consider poaching on a level
    with traffic violations. You get a slap on the hand and are told
    not to due it again.
    
    How many people due you no who have had there car taken and license
    taken away for illegal parking or speeding?
    
    I like the $20,000 fine and permant loss of license idea.
    
    Bill
    
    
    
    

    
    Bear...about the Vermont Warden...Heather Dunbar was her name...she
    was not a state warden but a Federal Warden.  She was assigned to
    the Missisquoi National Wildlife refuge, where she did a little
    hunting one morning in a steel shot zone with lead...if my memory
    serves me she was caught red handed with 3 blacks (2 over the legal
    limit), and pockets full of lead shot.  She claimed she was "holding
    the ducks for another hunter" and the lead shot she had was stuff
    she had seized earlier that day.  Don't really know what ever happened
    to her.  This was about 2 years ago.  I know they prosecuted, but
    don't remember if she got off.  She also ran her plane into power
    lines, violating the 500' ceiling...a bad apple.
    
    About the article, Dave brought over the magazine and I couldn't
    believe it either.  Doesn't sound like there is any easy way to
    stop them but for increased penalties.  But a crook is a crook,
    some of them would change with education (negative reinforcement..like
    fines) but they've been doing it for years so don't anyone hold
    their breath.  An all together 5 year ban on open hunting, duck
    hunting by permit only, in designated areas...who knows.  All I
    know is it has to have a big effect on our hunting and the future
    of ducks in North America, we should somehow convince our legislators
    it is a long term problem.
    
    What about getting them the helicopter?  Would this qualify for
    the Digital Matching Gift program?  It is tax deductible.
    
    Comments?
    
    Kevin

    Does anyone know what the penalty is in NH or Mass for similar
    violations?
    
    I agree that legislated Minimun penalties is the only way to stop
    it.  For big bucks hunting club members, I suspect a mandatory
    jail sentence would be even better than large fines.  Give'm
    a few days in the slammer to contemplate what they've done.
    
    Mark,
    

    .14   Kevin you are correct Heather Dunbar is the person
    in the story as told to me and most of your facts seem in line with
    what I heard... 
    
    In the story , as related to me , some of it was left out.
    
    Now after reading your acconts of her side of the story
    one wonders "IF " she might not have done anything wrong.
    
    I guess I would have to know the woman well before I could
    make up my mind.
    
    If she is Gilty what would you expect her to say. I guess she would
    lie to cover her *ss.
    
    Somehow, though it seems like purhaps some one was trying to get
    even. Purhaps she arrested a power polition...
    
    And one more thing now that I at it.....
    
    I heard a story the other day from a dear friend of this guy who
    is rather wealthy maney times over that he paid to have a felony
    charge removed from his reccord ,. So the rich can do just about
    anything.....They can break the law and get away with it even in
    Mass.
    
    Bear

    re .16,,,ESPECIALLY from Mass. !!
    
    	George-who-escaped-from Mass-nine-years-ago
    

    Re: .16 and .17
      Just ask Uncle Teddy  8*(
    
    

   
   1) 
   
   While in training for my Hunter Education Instructor certification we
   were presented some interesting statistics that the various game
   departments and agencies do not freely distribute.
   
   The one that comes to mind concerning duck poachers is that more than
   half of the duck poachers belong to, work for, head up, or are in
   some other way associated with Ducks Unlimited.  It seems the most
   common reason these people gave for their poaching is that because
   they pay Ducks Unlimited for the propogation of the duck population
   they felt entitled to take a "few extra" ducks.
   
   Don't flame!  I am not putting down Ducks Unlimited.  It does a fine
   job and needs all the support we can give.  I am slamming the
   attitude of some that feel they are in a privileged class because
   they have "paid" for the right to break the law.
   
   
   2)
   
   The courts do need to treat poaching as a major crime.  But poachers
   first need to be caught.  At this time I would like to put in a plug
   for your game warden/wildlife officer/game protector or whatever they
   are called in your state/province/country.
   
   This is not a safe business.  These law enforcement officers need our
   full support.  If you go to Ohio State University and visit their
   "natural resource management" (or whatever it's called) department
   one of the things you'll notice are pictures of certain graduates on
   the walls.
   
   These certain graduates are those who have been killed while
   performing their jobs.  Most of these graduates were not in law
   enforcement.  They worked for various government game and natural
   resource agencies as researchers, data collectors, etc.  Almost all
   of them were killed because they came across a poacher while in the
   field doing their job.
   
   Another example is where the mayor of a small town was the leader of
   a deer poaching ring.  They had totalled over 200 deer in about a 3
   week period.  The game officers had managed to plant an undercover
   agent in the ring. 
   
   This was not some fly-by-night operation.  This was a well
   coordinated and organized effort to poach deer for personal use and
   profit.  On the day of the bust, the plant reported later that the
   mayor was assigning tasks for moving the meat.  One of which was
   assigning two men to shoot the game protectors if they showed up.
   
   Their job isn't easy.  It is as life threatening as any other law
   enforcement job.  Make their job worthwhile by doing anything you can
   to make poaching unprofitable.

    re:last note
     ->their job isnt easy , it is as life threatening as any other law
       enforcement job.
    
       I would have to definatly agree with that statement, but I would say
    that a game officer's job is more dangerous than any other law
    enforcement job. reason being is that almost everyone they encounter in
    the field is in posession of a firearm, and lets face it there are
    hillbillies out there that would rather shoot a C.O. than go to jail or
    pay a hefty fine.
        If you cant believe it look at Claude Dallas, and what that
    caracter did out in Idaho.! just remember guys/gals, if you see
    something going on, BE CAREFULL these people arent going to like
    getting caught and just because they dont do anything then there are 
    ways to find out who you are, where you live and poachers have been 
    known to burn down barns,house's, camps and the such. just be carefull
    and use some discretion if you confront someone.
    
                                           Lee