Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    Erik, for what it's worth, I whole-heartedly agree with you.  It
    is my belief that purchasing a hunting license gives one the
    *privilege* to *hunt* game, NOT the RIGHT to fill one's tag.
    
    I would rather go home with an empty tag than have someone else
    fill it for me.  I have had heated discussions over this with other
    hunters before, but I've adamantly maintained that if someone else
    in our party shoots a deer after having filled his tag, then that
    person is on his own.  I usually get a strange look, but this is
    really a sore spot with me.  I will not tag anyone else's deer.
    
    No flames intended, just my opinion.  
    
    Mark.

    I must be missing something.  Don't you get two deer in Mass?
    
    Filling every tag would be 10 deer.
    
    I am sure this doesn't apply here, but in some rural areas, there
    are people that count on deer to fill the freezer for the year.
    In Maine and other places, a man will fill his tag and then go out
    to fill his wife's and his daughters or whatever.
    
    I'm sure this is different than the case you mentioned.
    
    Brett.

    Was it the case of here fill my tag or in some areas you could shot
    two deer and you misunderstood the person in the conversation.
    
                                                    
                                    Just asking for clarification,
    
                                                Guy

    No, it was a clear case of "I shot two", and put someone elses tag
    on it, or well there were two deer there, and I figured I would
    shoot them both knowing that someone else in the party would tag
    it.  I am sure that's what the conversation was about.  I just nodded
    along with him, and didn't say a word for the sake of argument.
    Well I will never hunt with that group.
    
    Erik

    My opinion:
    
    An out of state license to many N.E. states is around $60-70. If
    your on a week long hunting trip, and luck out and get a deer the
    1st morning, what are you going to do, sit in the cabin all week
    long. I have never had this problem, but guys in my party have.
    We keep hunting, because we love to hunt. You still have a bear
    tag, so it's quite ok to continue to hunt. Perhaps if I ever get
    my trophy buck, say 220+ pounds, 10 pts, I might just sit around
    and guard him... but if I have the chance to take two, I will, so
    long as someone in the party has a tag. I for one, see NO problem
    with this...... 
    
      just my group's OPINION...
    
     Smitty 

    
    	I agree with .5 . When you're more than an hour from home
    for more than a day, and a license is $70, the lucky one doesn't
    just call it a wrap. We hunt with a rather large group, in an 
    area which is home to about half the group. We drive areas and 
    place sitters in strategic locations on the receiving end of 
    the drive. When one of us is fortunate enough to get his deer, 
    he becomes a designated driver. If that person is fortunate enough
    to get a shot at another deer, one of us is ready to tag it. Its
    up to him, whether or not he decides to take the second shot. We hunt 
    as a team, and feel obligated to help each other out as much as
    possible. This is all agreed upon up front. 
    
    	Just another opinion.
    
    
    dave

    In the Colorado hunter safety class it was made painfully clear
    that Colorado DOW considers one person shooting and using another's
    tag poaching.  Period.  The example the teacher gave was a DOW agent
    coming upon a camp with a husband and wife and two deer -- one tagged
    by the husband and the other the wife.  He asked the wife to show
    him the gun she had used -- she did, then he asked her to load it
    -- and she didn't know how.  The husband got a stiff fine.
    
                             Roak

    Now of course if a person has two tags him/herself, I see no problem
    with taking two deer.

    Re.5 & .6
    
    These guys were from Mass and hunting in Mass.  
    
    Everyone is entitled to their opinion!
                                                    
    Oh well, as long as you know the "rules" of your hunting party and
    accept them, then that is each hunters choice. 
                
    Erik.

                                               
                             -< My new opinion >-
         
         I think .1's position on this is commendable. We should
         realize that a hunting license entitles THE LICENSE HOLDER to
         take game in accordance with the game laws. 
                                          
         That's the law, but I haven't followed it. Up until the
         beginning of this season I've always hunted for my hunting
         party's combined bag limit of birds. The results are often
         lopsided, with one hunter shooting the majority of the birds
         in the limit. One Saturday last October we hit a good flight
         of woodcock and I missed a lot of shots. The daily limit in
         Mass is three birds and my partner took five while I managed
         to hit only one. That's when my partner said in passing that
         a lot of hunters were strongly against what we were doing. 
         
         Up until then, I'd never given it any thought. If I had to
         justify the party bag limit I'd say that we hunted as a team
         and each of us was partly responsible for the game that
         someone else was able to shoot. But that's only true for some
         situations. Most of the time, it's you and your own abilities
         that count.                 
         
         Although it's going to be a tough change, I'd now rather
         follow the letter of the law. Even though party bag limits
         seem harmless enough, there is a potential for serious abuse.
         Using the tag of someone who can't shoot is one of them. Or
         consider a situation where one of a pair of hunters has
         tagged a deer. The limit is one deer per hunter and they both
         set out to fill the remaining tag. Unless they hunt close
         together, there is a possibility that each will get lucky and
         shoot a deer. That could mean that one deer gets left in the
         woods. 

         Why take a chance? I'd rather learn to hunt and shoot well
         and bag my own birds thank you. 
                           
         Re. 7: We had a similar thing happen while duck hunting. The
         limit on black ducks is one per day and the warden held up
         two of our blacks and asked, "Who shot these two?" We gave
         him the right answer. 
         
         Doug                      

    
      For the past 7 years that I've hunted in NH our hunting party
    has scored in 5 of those 7 years. We just make sure that we have
    one or two shotguns in our crew so that when a hunter scores he's
    the designated driver/partridge hunter/rabbit hunter...
    
      One person taking more than one deer where allowed is no problem
    with me. I don't (personally) like the idea of a guy getting a
    deer one day, and the next day he's out there again with deer rifle
    in hand trying to possibly fill someone elses tag. That's a "numbers
    above all else" type of game in my opinion. Something that I believe
    in is that the deer herd isn't a food source anymore. It's there
    for sport. What is the sport in tagging a deer you didn't shoot
    yourself? It would give me a very hollow feeling to tag someone
    elses deer. Granted, I like venison as much as the next person,
    and I'll take venison when I'm given it. I love to see that full
    freezer at the end of a successful hunt. But I don't want that
    freezer filled by any means possible... I want it filled by following
    the games laws to a T and not by using any type of loophole...
    
    
    Joe

re: .10

>>  has scored in 5 of those 7 years. We just make sure that we have
>>  one or two shotguns in our crew so that when a hunter scores he's
>>  the designated driver/partridge hunter/rabbit hunter...

  Did you know that in NH its illegal to assist someone in taking
a deer after you've bagged one for yourself?
    
>>   freezer filled by any means possible... I want it filled by following
>>  the games laws to a T and not by using any type of loophole...
    
  There is also a law in NH that says you can't have more than 6 people
involved in a deer drive.

  Most of the people I know don't have any idea these laws exist.

Steve    
   

    Steve:
    
      The guy who is out there with the shotgun isn't "driving deer"
    per-say. I shouldn't have used that word. I should have said the
    "kicker" since anyone in the woods is going to kick deer around.
    He hunts for himself to get some birds or rabbits yet he know's
    where he should be to be able to kick deer in our direction just
    by his presents in a certain area. Is that a deer drive? No.
    I figured that those out there might know what I'm talking about
    when I said that "he (one individual) is the designated driver"
    How many deer drives have you ever heard of with one driver Steve?
    
      Joe

    
     I enjoy hunting deer as much as anybody else. I enjoy the preparation,
    the time out with friends, and trying to out fox the deer. If I
    get to see deer when I'm on a hunt, I consider it a successful hunt.
    Actually pulling the trigger and shooting a deer a just the frosting
    on the cake. The venison, the hide, the mount, or maybe just some
    photograghs are things that allow me to look back on and share the
    experience with others long after the hunt. This notes file is a
    great place to do just that !
     Since this is a very opinionated, and ethical topic, I will state
    my personal opinion and not try to impose it on anyone else. First,
    I think if someone else shot a deer for me, I would miss some of
    the rewards associated with taking a deer. I have seen deer driven
    in many different methods, some I can tolerate and some I cannot.
    I've seen hunters drive deer with the use of walkie talkies, and
    the deer never had a chance, I've seen dogs let loose to drive deer
    and again, I can't tolerate this in any way. I can tolerate a deer
    drive by a limited number of hunters that have nothing but their
    basic hunting essentials. I don't think that any hunter should shoot
    more deer than their tag(s) specify. 
     As a sportsman, I feel I have an obligation to the next generation
    of hunters to preserve the sport of hunting and to help preserve
    our natural wildlife.
     These are just my views !
    
    pat.
    

    As a earlier reply stated, It is illegal to shoot another persons
    game here in Colorado.  I decided not to hunt anymore with the party I had
    been hunting with because of their hunting habits.  They shoot each
    others game.  If they are checking out hunters in the area, They
    do not use binocs but look down the scopes of their rifle.  I was
    heading back in one day and when I was about 200 yards from one member
    of our party, he was watching me through the scope of his rifle.
    I don't like being on the wrong end of a 7mm mag.  If they are not
    safe and/or do not follow the law, I will hunt with someone else.
    
    Pat

    	Just a little nit but this and note # 94 probably should appear
    in note # 24 which is entitled "Ethics". This would help make it
    easier to find things in this conference as it grows larger.
    
    	There appear to be a few different types of hunters. Just an
    observation but I see roughly the following types,
    
    	A. Those that care about and follow the law to the letter
    
    	B. Those that care about but sometimes bend the law occaisionally
    
    	C. Those that don't care or follow the law
    
    	It's my "opinion" that the vast majority of hunters fall somewhere 
    between A and B. It is also my opinion that most things said in
    this conference will not sway a persons actions unless those actions
    were done out of ignorance.

	 If something is illegal, then it shouldn't be done. To try to 
    justify doing something illegal is a waste of time and disk space. 
    If you're doing something illegal and aren't aware of it, and by 
    reading these notes you realize it, then the info in this conference 
    was worth while (if it's accurate).  
    
    	If you're doing something illegal and you know it, why bother to 
    enter it in here. If you strongly disagre about a law then try to get 
    it changed. Inversely, if you follow the law to the letter, why 
    bother to enter that in here as it serves no usefull purpose.
    
        So now your probably saying, "Ya, so, what's the point". The
    point is to continue along the lines of conversations like this
    is to ask for trouble. The things you enter are here as permanent
    records and should be treated as such. Also, conversations like
    this and the dog shootings tend to make unnecessary stressfull 
    situations in a conference about a relaxing enjoyable sport. Sure
    there are differences of opinion that lend themselves to
    interpretation, however the games laws that are specific do not
    fall into this catagory. 
    
    	With all the pressure from anti-gun/anti-hunting groups nowadays,
    there are enough things/people to have heated discusions with and
    about without arguing between ourselves. For all we know, there
    could be anti's reading this file and collecting data. Why give them 
    more ammunition ?????

    RAYJ

    re: 12
    
    Joe,
    
       If I'm hunting with one other person and we want to drive
     deer then one of us will become the designated driver and the
     other the shooter. I can't say we've had much luck doing this
     but I know of at least 2 people who have taken deer with one
     man drives.  While hunting alone I've pushed deer at other hunters
     without much effort at all.
                                
     Steve
     Boy, I hate when that happens

    
    Exactly Steve. All I'm saying is from my standpoint, if you have
    one hunter in your crew who has scored, and the state law isn't
    like Mass. (No other "in season" animal during deer season) then
    having that guy beat the bush in a certain area looking for some
    grouse or snowshoe hares and in all likelyhood kicking deer around
    isn't illegal or unethical. The exception to the rule would be if
    the guy was actively trying to drive deer with 3 or 4 other hunters
    and then it would be against RSA 207:8 which you mentioned (no more
    that 6 deer drivers...). I called the NH F&G on this and talked
    to Lt. Murphy. He stated that someone participating in a deer drive,
    yet without the proper ammunition etc. and even if he had no intention
    of shooting a deer would be considered hunting deer if viewed by
    a warden doing such. The analogy he gave me was the one where you
    have two people shooting deer at night. One guy shoots, but they
    both go down and gut the animal out and haul it away. They're both
    guilty in the eye's of the law. I guess what it boils down to is
    this: If you're out there with your shotgun meandering around and
    hunting only birds and rabbits etc. and possibly kicking a deer
    here and there, and quite possibly onto one of your hunting partners
    then that's OK. But don't go out there with the sole intent of driv-
    ing deer with a shotgun in your hand. And by an organized drive
    Lt. Murphy stated that it's 2 or more hunters in a stander/driver
    arrangement.
    
      Sure, notes like these can get a little hot at times, and it may
    seem like we're fighting amoungst each other, but they also bring
    out a lot of good information. The more informed hunters we are
    the better hunters we'll be... (Just my opinion....)
    
    
    Joe

    
    Personally I don't want to put my tag on someone elses deer, nor
    will I shoot a deer for someone else to tag. Some members of the
    party I hunt with have different opinions. This year one member
    got his deer on the first morning, that night the rest of us told
    him we did not want to put our tag on his deer, for the rest of
    the weekend he hunted with my shotgun (and birdshot). The shotgun
    was brought along every weekend just for this reason.  The law is
    the law, but this law is one of the most common ones to go against.
    This is one reason, I believe, that they changed the bear season
    in NH. It use to run concurrent with deer season, when you shot
    you deer you simply said you were bear hunting, thus justifying
    walking around with the deer rifle.  It is illegal, as a not said
    earlier, the NH laws specifically say it is illegal to tag a deer
    you did not shoot.
    
    I also hunt for more reason than putting meat on the table. This
    year I got to spend alot of time with my new brother in law, getting
    to know him on a different basis while riding up and back and hunting.
    Also I get to spend time with some Uncles, cousins and my father.
    All of which I don't see as much as I would like. This time with
    the people and being in the woods are the 2 biggest reasons I hunt.
    Also anytime I get close enough to see a deer, I think I had a good
    day. This year everyone saw deer, only one was taken. A good year.
    
    --Bob
    

re: .16

ray,
	I agree with you 100% and I for one fall under the "A" type
hunter...I follow the rules to the letter.
	Unfortunately not everyone is a "A" type hunter, I've had plenty
of opportunity to take an animal out of the woods illegally but I wouldn't
or for that matter couldn't do it.
	I have been hunting for 6 years with out getting a deer and had 
plenty of chances during the season to get one but for one reason or another I 
didn't....And if I see a deer in the woods after season with my gun I
wouldn't even point it at the animal and I'm not just talking about deer
I'm talking about any animal in the woods that is out of season!
	Like you said "If something is illegal, Then it shouldn't be done"
And if you see or know someone doing something illegal during hunting season
It's up to that hunter to turn in that person period!
	I use to hunt with a group of so called hunters like that, When it
came down to the last few days the person with a doe permit would say
"anything goes...anyone can take a doe and i'll put my tag on it!"
fortunately no one ever got one, I said to them that it was wrong but they
would say "If the state allocates so many permits then they should be filled!"
	I will not hunt with these type of people in fact I don't even 
consider them hunters!
	Hunting is a part of wildlife management and if it is abused then 
ther is no wildlife management!

		mike

    Let's not get carried away on the turning in of people.  I agree
    completely with following the laws.  But, I would not turn in someone
    because I knew they were speeding, even though they were "breaking
    the law".  It would depend on the severity of the act.  A murder
    or break-in would be reported.
    
    Just my opinion.  Most laws are there for good reasons.
    
    Ed..