Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    
    Hi Linda,
    
    Sounds like Freda is developing a sense of independence ! I like
    to encourage this in all our pups providing they're out checking
    out new areas and new things and are constantly on the move.
    I think that maybe changing your training area is a good idea.
    Sometimes a pup gets too aquainted with an area and feels too
    independent. Sometimes if you bring them into a different area,
    they will feel less confident and will oblige to their training
    more readily. One thing that is common to most young dogs is the
    fact that their owner is like their security blanket. If you
    walk away from her, I'll bet that she will follow. She doesn't
    want to be left alone especially if it's in an area that the pup
    is not familiar with. I like to take pups into the woods and
    do this kind of training. It helps them to learn to check in on
    their own without constant handling. It's important that you
    try to keep things in balance as you still want the dog to have
    some sense of independence. One extreme is having a dog that is
    glued to the handlers feet and the other extreme is having a dog
    that is totally out on it's own. 
                                     
    pat.
    

    I had similair problems with my dogs that have lost interest in being
    petted and praised around that age.  It happened recently with my
    lab, and to an even greater extent with other dogs I've had in the
    past.  
    
    I wondered if it wasn't like the "teenager" phase people go through.
    Fortunately, I kept at it and it eventually passed.
    
    Mark,
    

    	What is the proper use of a check cord to reinforce the "come"
    	exercize?  I have been practicing recalls around the house 
    	and want to try it outside in a new area, but want to assure
    	success the first few times.  I have a very light nylon cord, 
    	about 30' long, but could cut it shorter.
    	  Also does anyone know where I can get some dried bird wings?
    	  Thanks,
    	    Linda

    I'd try using a long (40') check cord on her.  If she doesn't come,
    enforce the command by pulling her in with the check cord.  You
    might then, after she has come to you and you've said "good dog"
    or otherwise briefly praised her, immediately bring her into
    heel.  In other words, control her attention during the training
    session.  But, as others have said, keep the sessions short and
    let her play when you're not training her.  I would not come down
    hard on her until after she is trained and you can tell she is
    disobeying.

    what type of bird wings do you need?  I might have some....
    
    the check cord should be very pliant so the pup can drag it without
    getting hung up.  I like a dacron cord, as opposed to some of the
    polypropylene or nylon ones, and I leave it in a mud puddle for
    a few days so it softens up - a bucket of water will do.  You can
    get the pup used to a short cord first and then try thelonger one.
    
    check cords are great.  dogs don't come with handles.
                                                               
    Don't forget that you want to get the doc birdy at this age.  obedience
    traing should not be mixed with this - they will be brought together
    when the dog is older.

    	I am looking for any type of bird wing that is dry enough
    	to keep, so that I don't have to freeze it.  I used to have
    	a goose wing, but it got thrown away.  I just want to introduce
    	her to retrieving feathers.
    	  Linda

    Hi Linda,
      I've got goose, duck, and pheasent wings.  Let me know what you
    would like.  I'll send them through the mail 8*).
    Jeff

    	  Here is my impression of the check cord as a training aid,
    	after using it about 4 sessions.  I think it is very useful.
    	The dog did not seem to realize she had it on.  I walked her
    	on a leash from the car to the field, and attached the cord
    	before unsnapping her regular leash, so she thought she was
    	free.  The only drawbacks to it is that it did catch up on
    	things a few times when in cover (probably not a good idea
    	to use it in anything other than grass).  Also I am embarassed
    	to admit that I stepped on it a couple of times and caught
    	her short by accident.  I would worry that this would inhibit
    	the dog from running all out, but did not notice that she was
    	holding back.  She also got it wrapped around her leg twice,
    	but that is probably good practice for if she ever gets caught
    	up in anything she knows to be still until I unwind her.
    	  After three sessions I did not have to use it, even though
    	it was on.
    	Happy training!
    	Linda

    	  Yet another training question.  Is it a bad idea to let a
    	spaniel run rabbits?  Someone told me that this is a hard
    	habit to break.  Does anyone hunt their spaniels on both,
    	which it seems is common in England?  I don't want to start
    	something which will interfere with bird training, but there
    	are more rabbits around my area (wooded) than birds.  I am
    	trying to encourage my puppy to get out more, and she has
    	not come across enough birds to give her the idea.
    	  I was going to plant some pigeons for her and then just let
    	them fly, but the source in 4.15 only gets them sporadically,
    	and I don't have training fever bad enough to start climbing
    	bridges or stand around in traffic with a 15' net (well Jeff, 
    	I guess I just don't have what it takes).
    	  Linda

    I'm no expert, but I think it would depend on what you want the
    dog to do in the field.  If you don't want the dog to chase rabbits
    when you are bird hunting, you should try to break it now.  Personally,
    I've been taking my Lab out looking for rabbits (but haven't found
    a good area yet).  If I got a rabbit while I was bird hunting, I
    would just consider it a bonus.  I've hunted quail with a rabbit
    dog before and I don't see why one would interfer with the other
    for a 'flushing' dog.
    
    If you can get a couple of pigion, let the dog retrieve a few
    wing clipped birds.  That really got my Lab interested.
    
    Good luck,
    Mark
    

    Well there hasn't been any discussion here for a while, so let's
    see if anyone has any suggestions for the problem I'm having.
    
    I have a 4 1/2 month old Lab that will not retrieve when he is outside.
    I got him when he was 3 months old, and immediately started to play
    retrieving games with him in the house (I toss a small bumper, he
    gets it and brings it back). In the house he seems to love to do
    this, but when I take him outside in the back yard he won't cooperate,
    he runs right over to the bumper, then looks at it, makes a really
    feeble attempt to pick it up, then wanders off. When he does this
    I call him back, try rolling the bumper around with my foot to try
    to get him interested again, but it never works, he just wanders
    off again sniffing around. At first I thought that he was just to
    excited from being outside, so I waited till we had been out for
    15 or 20 mins before starting the game, this did not seem to work
    either. He's doing great with his other training (sit, stay, come)
    and only has to be shown what is expected a couple of times, so
    I know he is capable of learning.
    
    I would appreciate any suggestions anyone might have.
    
    Thanks
    Wayne Field

    	Hi Wayne,
    	  I have the same situation with my cocker in that she will
    	retrieve a dummy readily in the yard, but out in the field
    	she would much rather keep hunting.  So I am using dead 
    	pigeons, which I keep in the freezer.  You could try getting
    	a canvas dummy and putting scent on it.  Or you may try
    	to get him interested by teasing him with it, running around
    	with it, and expressing great excitement over it, and
    	encourage him and make a big fuss when he picks it up.
    	It would do more harm than good to try to force him.
    	  Make sure you are not overdoing the training by doing
    	too many retrieves.  Maybe you could lay off for a few
    	days and then only give him one or two retrieves at a
    	time.  I think that more than 5-6 in one session would
    	be too much for a dog of that age, but maybe not for a Lab.
    		Linda

    	Wayne,
    	  I have also heard of taping or tying bird wings to a dummy
    	to try to get them interested, but have never myself tried
    	this.
    		Linda

    Wayne,
      Don't push the dog too hard at this age.   If he is retrieving
    in the house, you know he has the basic instinct.  Are you doing
    anything different when playing outside vs inside?  Are you using
    the same dummy?  Make your retrieves very short.  Get the pup hyped
    before giving him the retrieve.  When he gets to the mark, call
    him in, praising him along the way.  Don't give him more then a
    couple of retrieves in any one session.  Keep your sessions short,
    and fun.  Remember 4.5 mos is a _young_ dog.
                                           
    Jeff

    Linda, 
      Did you ever get the wings I sent you???
    Jeff

    	Jeff,
    	  Yes I got them, but then didn't use them for a while and
    	moths got into them.  Maybe I should have packed them in
    	napthalene?
    		Linda

    Sometimes he will make one retrieve, maybe two, sometimes I'll
    toss the dummy and he'll take off in the other direction.
    I always use the same dummy, indoors or out. He doesn't really seem
    to like the feel of the dummy in his mouth, he usually picks it
    up by the middle at first, but will drop it and pick it up several
    times before he gets back to me. The dummy I use is  a small plastic
    one which is 2" diameter, and about 9 or 10 inches long (the smallest
    I could find), and I only toss it 10 or 12 feet. 
    The first couple of times I played the retrieving
    game with him I used a knotted sock because he was to small to pick
    up much else. He really seems to like the sock much better, and
    will pick it up outside better. Would it be reasonable to go back to
    using the sock outside until he is performing reliably? 
    Should I just stick with the dummy? I always do his other training
    indoors. Should I start doing his other training outdoors, then after
    I have his attention try a few retrieves? This will be the first
    dog that I have ever tried to train to hunt and I'm open to any
    hints or suggestions.
    
    Wayne 
                                                                 

    Since the point is to get him to like retrieving, I would use
    whatever he prefers.  If he likes the knotted sock, you could stuff
    it with something and sew or tie one end.  My cocker is the first
    bird dog I have had, and I was eager to get on with training, but you 
    really have to give the dog time to develop, and not let him feel any 
    pressure as a puppy.  Don't worry about form at this point.
    Try to get him enthusiastic about chasing and carrying the retrieving
    object around.
	Linda

    Wayne,
      I have lots of puppy dummies and would loan you one to see if
    he likes them.  Just send me your mailstop.
    	Linda

    Wayne,
      Linda's advice is good.  don't worry about form at this stage
    of the game.  Turn him into a retrieving addict first!  Use whatever
    he likes for now.  Make all your sessions short and sweet.  If he
    takes off with the dummy, ignore him.  Don't chase him, ever!  You
    want him to realize that the only way you'll keep playing with him
    is if he completes the retrieve.  Don't worry about how he is carrying
    the dummy.  This is easy to work on later.  Remember always that
    he is till a baby.  Keep his spirits up.  All the sessions at this
    age should be 90% play.  No scolding.  Try putting some scent on
    the dummy.  This will get him use to the smell of birds.
    
    Jefff  

    One other idea...I didn't read that you tried using the plastic
    dummy inside. There are fewer distractions inside (no new scents,
    butterflies, etc.). You may find that he'll do quite well.
    
    Good luck

    Guy

    When I was going through that with my Lab, I had the best luck with
    one of the small canvas "puppy" size dummies and a little scent
    on it as Linda suggested.  I think the scent made it a little more
    interesting to the pup and the smaller size was much easier for
    her to handle.
    
    You've got lots of time, so don't get discouraged.
    
    Good luck,
    Mark
    

    
    Okay since everyone is interested in training these days (like Fall
    is right around the corner) I have a few questions as well.  I have
    a 3 year old female yellow lab, I have done all of the training
    myself, and have used her hunting ducks for 3 seasons.  She is very
    aggresive and very birdy.
    
    I've started getting her back into formal training, with a few things
    that I want to correct:
    
    long blind retrieves (150-200yds) we lost some birds last year (steel
    shot cripples) that went a long ways
    
    during training (with dummies) she almost always drops the bird
    as she circles behind me to heel, if I repeat the command HOLD,HOLD,
    until she is at my side she's okay, but it hasn't seemed to sink
    in
    
    she hangs her head when she's at my side with the dummie in her
    mouth, no matter how much I praise her, it seems she just wants
    to do more and more...if I rub her chest and tell her she's good
    she will slowly lift her head, but it bothers me to see her hang
    her head.  She also tries to avoid my hand when I go to take the
    bird from her mouth.
    
    
    What I have been doing:
    
    For long blind retrieves;  I drop an unused dummie in the marsh
    grass as we walk down the beach and proceed 1-200yds away, mark
    her, and work her to the bird.  This has been working.  She seems
    to be getting more confidence.  
    
    Dropping the Dummie:  I have tried repeating the command HOLD over
    and over, as long as I'm not saying the words she usually drops
    the bird, only to re-settle it in her mouth and come to my side,
    it's not that she doesn't want to bring it to me, it's that she
    wants to have the dummie centered in her mouth, and I think she
    likes to shake without the dummie in her mouth.  Should I be worried
    about this, or is it a nit?
    
    Hanging her head/moving it away from my hand:  I have been telling
    her she's good, praising her alot...stroking her chest, but she
    just keeps hanging her head...this is another "form" problem, not
    an actual performance problem, but as you can probably tell I expect
    an awful lot from this dog, because I know she is capable.
    
    thanks in advance for any suggestions.
    
    Kevin

    Kevin,
      A good dirll to teach the "hold" command is as follows.  Have the
    dog sit with dummy in his mouth.  If he starts to lower his head
    gently tap him under the chin and say "hold".  Every time he lowers
    his chin repeat the procedure.  He should increase the duration
    as you progress.  You could also read up on force fetching a dog
    if this becomes a real problem. 
      For blinds be careful that she's not following your track back
    to the planted bird. Use a retriever trainer to plant the dummy
    if this becomes a problem.  Some dogs (mine) will back track your
    footsteps to the blind.  The RT eliminates this problem..  The other
    alternative is to send him from a different angle.  
    Good luck
    
    Jeff                               
                                  
    
    

         Re 17
                                                                       
         I never use my plastic dummies because my dog hates working
         with them. She just picks them up and drops em.

         I've heard that this is quite common and I wouldn't regard it
         as a problem with your dog or your training -- the knobby
         plastic dummy is simply too hard. Try the soft canvas dummies;
         they feel more like real birds. 

         Doug
           

    .23
    	My dog has the same tendency to drop the bird when going around
    to the back, and 2 things that help are 1) attach a short leash
    and give her a tug as she goes around to the back to keep her moving, 
    2) start walking and let her carry it at heel a couple of steps and 
    then take it from her.
    	Linda