Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    Please substitute safety everwhere you read safty. ( I knew it
    didn't look right.)

      I agree with Bear 100%.  When hunting the safety goes off a 
    millisecond before I pull the trigger. With a little practice you'll
    actually become a better shot.  Let me explain.   If your the type
    of guy who takes his safety off when he _thinks_ a bird is going
    to get up, your gonna get burned.  Sooner or later a bird is going
    to take you by suprise and flush under your feet.  You'll be watching
    that bird fly away while trying to get the safety off.  If you are
    the type that takes it off right before you pull the trigger, you'll
    bag that bird because it all comes natural to you and you took the
    safety off without realizing it.  Practice taking it off on the
    skeet or trap field by shooting low gun.  It really helps your
    shooting.
    Jeff

    I aggre with your comments, they canot be over stressed, your comment
    on muzzel control is 100% and Im happy to hear it. The only thing
    that can be added regarding the use of the saftie is that THERE
    IS NO SAFTIE, what is meant is that saftie's cannot be counted on,
    they simply fail.
    
    I consider and have taught in hand gun and shot gun programs that
    a gun is always in BATTERY condition and there for your comment
    on muzzel control is excellent! when you take your saftie off
    you are not placing your gun in battery, it was that way the minute
    it was in hand, shoulder, get your sight pricture and then snick
    the saftie off, practice this in a mirror untill you are smooth,
    do it with your hunting jacket on.
    
    Your hunting friends will respect you, you will feel more confident
    and enjoy our sport and understand that when you lean your elbow
    on your muzzel or rest your muzzel on your toe or carry you gun
    over your shoulder with the muzzel pointing at some one behind you,
    you are putting your own or someone else's life in danger.
    
    Sorry for the speech, hope you all understand, have seen accidents
    happen first hand, dont like to do first responder and cpr on my
    day off in the field.
    
              Happy Hunting
    

    
    Very good points but you left out the next most important rule,
    after you do get that shot off, PUT THE SAFETY BACK ON!  I myself
    have forgotten in all the excitement to do this sometimes. 
    
    How many times do you put your game in the bag and keep walking
    only to notice that you never put the safety back on!
    
    Keep this in mind this fall!
    
    Erik

    I concur with each of the last several commments 100 %.  I have
    a friend (he is still my friend) whom I won't hunt with anymore
    because he doesn't use a safety.  He claims that he will never get
    a shot off in time.  (He has yet to shoot a bird!)
    
    The first time he mentioned this to me I couldn't believe it.  
    I had been hunting with him on numerous occasions and
    I *assumed* he used his safety.  Well, to make a long story short,
    I told him to find another hunting partner.  He understood my position,
    but maintained his as well.  Oh well, like I said, we are still
    friends.
    
    As a side note, NEVER ASSUME YOUR HUNTING PARTNERS USE THEIR SAFETIES.
    Make sure you ask your fellow hunters about safety habits BEFORE
    going afield.

    Keep your lines tight and your powder dry.
    
    Mark.

    Another comment in regards to safety.  Eric reminded me of one
    of the reasons I like hunting with an o/u.  As soon as I take a
    shot and the bird is down, I break the gun open.  A double which
    is broken open is at its safest.  I do this as soon as I know I've
    hit the bird, before I send the dog on the retrieve.  I can then
    shift my attention to the dog and the retrieve.  
      In regards to hunting with guys who won't use a safety, Have you
    ever hunted with guys who constantly play with the safety? click-on,
    click-off, click-on, click-off etc....  Drives me nuts.  First time
    last time.
    Jeff
     

    Great comment !, lets keep this going, maybe someone can relate
    a very scary situation that can help all of us understand how
    gun handeling can get out of control.
    
    
    Learning every day, just hope theres enough of em.
    
    BTW, my first shot gun was a Iver Jhonson single, 12 ga, found it
    in the attic of a house we moved into when I was 14, no saftie on
    the gun, exposed hammer had to cocked, date on the barrel was 1914,
    well an Uncle took me hunting and, you know those clear, cold mornings
    when you eyse galze a little, even tear a bit, well a pheasent went
    up real close and I remeber cocking shouldering, trying to hang
    on to the splinter for end and the strait stock, looking down the
    barrel thinking i was following the birds path and when my sight
    cleared realised I was pointing the muzzel at my uncles nice red
    hunting hat, while it was still on his head !, We had a meaningfull
    conversation if you catch my drift and I was very thankfull for
    a slow deliberate mounting and a cleared sight picture just at the
    last moment. 
    
    See you in the field.

    re: .6
    
    The philosophy works with an O/U but when partridge hunting, I'd
    rather use the safety.  If you've ever hunted these little guys,
    as soon as you drop the first bird and crack the gun open, you
    find out that he had buddies and were having a party under the
    apple tree.  It has happened more than once.
    
    Dave

    Absolutly, keep the safty on!!! I'd rather miss that first shot
    due to excitement and or surpise cuz I forgot to press that little
    button first, than have the gun go off as it's mounted to shoulder.
    (happened one morning with a friend out pheasant hunting bout 6
    years ago).  Last year was the first time I hunted with him since.
    It was a good feeling to watch him miss that first shot cuz he had
    forgotten to push the button.  We talked about it in the blind 
    afterward.  His excuse six years ago was the same as someone else
    stated..."can't get the shot off in time if I have to worry about
    pusing a button too."  Then he was hunting with a friend of his
    in a duck blind.  Same thing, except he had to repair his canoe.
    My friend understood why I didn't want to hunt with him after his
    experience.  Kinda sends a uncomfortable chill up the spine.
    
    
    Bryan with_saftey_on_and_missing_shots_on_occassion_cuz_it's_still_on

    I agree with all of the above, but lets carry it a little farther.
    The following verbiage (and I will appologise as I am long winded
    and tend to ramble on!!) is based on many years in the field and
    10 years of teaching hunter safety for the ODNR. How many times
    have you seen somebody load a shotgun at the truck, even though
    it isn't legal shooting time yet( you can be cited for that here)
    and then lean the thing against a tree. Ever see one fall and fire?
    I have and it killed the guys dog! Also along the same lines we
    have a shotgun barrel that is blown all to hell. Seems the hapless
    fellow leaned it up against the tree and water had been slowly dripping
    into it, froze and when he fired you can figure out the rest including
    the 20 stitches it took to put his mug back together. Safety..it
    is only a device and as such it can and will eventually fail. It
    cannot replace proper handling. The best "safety" is to make sure
    there is not a LOOSE NUT BEHIND THE PIECE. 
    Ever see a fellow out hunting deer, dressed in the latest fall fashion,
    full camo from top to bottom. Has to answer to mother nature for
    eating chili in camp last night, drops his pants and what do you
    see...his glaring fresh white jockies. Same color as a deers tail!!
    Sound unsafe, does to me. Ohio and Pa. have laws that require 100
    sq. in of blaze orange to be visable in all directions during any
    of the gun seasons for deer including muzzleloader. Same thought
    is true for your hankerchief. I have several made from blaze orange
    so that when they are pulled out I don't look like bambi. They also
    double as emergency flags if I get hurt and are dandy for hanging
    off limbs when I have eaten chili. When dragging your deer out they
    are tied to it so nobody will try to re-kill the deer for it.
    Going hunting, make sure mom knows where you are. Its a bitch looking
    for somebody when all that the world knows is what county you are
    in. I give my folks a copy of the topo map which shows where the
    camp is and the range over which I intend to hunt. They also know
    when I leave and when I anticipate returning. Be sure to call them
    and let them know if there are any changes. There is nothing wrong
    with cancelling a deer hunt due to 10 below weather and going hunting
    for 2 legged does, but if you connect let'em know so they don't
    get the world out looking for you.
    You have no doubt heard of folks falling thru ice, it happens and
    hypothermia is a killer (we learned that in both diving class and
    hunter safety). We all at Digital have access to these handy little
    head cleaners called Texpads (tm) which are 99% isopropal. They
    work very well if you have to start a fire in a pinch and will
    sterialize a wound in the field. TWO CAUTIONS are in order, BE SURE
    THEY ARE NOT GOLD WIPES (I think they are toxic) and be sure to
    squeeze them and verify that they have not dried out. I would not
    want them around my eyes and I have a friend that will never use
    them as a substitute for TP (he says it burned a bit !!!)
    More later..they actually want me to work today!!!

    I USED TO hunt with a guy that had a nasty habit of testing his
    safety as we walked away from the truck.  He said he did it all
    the time because sometimes it didn't work!  I thought he was just
    kidding me until the day came when I spent the whole afternoon without
    the hearing in my left ear because his auto went off about a foot
    and a half away from my head.  I was more upset because he knew
    he had faulty equipment and failed to have it fixed by a professional
    as compared with the foolish act itself.  I have gotten over it
    because he got married and his wife won't let him hunt anymore.
    Thank goodness! 
    
     A message I have to any bowhunters out there is
    to bring along a piece of blaze orange cloth and some tacks .....
    pin it closeby to your location so that others see your location
    and avoid you.  Use the tacks so the wind doesn't make your flag
    too noticable to game.   I started the ritual several years back when
    2 kids were squirrel hunting? and I thought I'd play it cool and
    let them walk right under me without giving away my stand location
    ..... well they walked right under me but when they were about 40
    yards away one of them turns and places his scope on me or in my
    direction.  Talk about one scarred human being!  He didn't shoot,
    I guess he was just looking.  Which brings up another sore spot
    with me; how many hunters use their rifle scope to glass game. 
    Too many as far as I'm concerned .... I've watched many through
    my binoculars.  I am a firm supporter of Hunter Safety programs,
    I am sure that they have saved many lives, perhaps yours or mine.
    Good luck and a safe season to all.
    
    -Dave

    There has already been a hunting accident up where I live in the
    NH Seacoast area.  Seems some guy accidently shot his son (2 bb's
    in the eye area) while hunting birds.
    
    I'll have to dig up the article to relay the details, but it seems
    like a pretty stupid and unnecessary incident.  How a person can
    shoot in the direction of someone else in the hunting party, or
    worse, shoot at movement or sound, escapes me.  Morons like this
    just fuel the anit's fire.
    
    Mark_who's_nervous_to_hunt_in_Newmarket_after_this.
    
    

    	Being that this guy shot his son, I wouldn't be surpised if
    the guy never goes hunting again.
    	Without the details I won't pass any judgement. I will say that
    I can see how something like that can happen. If two people are
    walking through brush, side by side at 25+ yards, and one happens to 
    get way in front without the other knowing it, this can easily result in
    that kind of accident. The guy could have been shooting at an actual
    bird that flushed up in front of him and the guy shot thinking his
    son was either parallel or possibly in back of him. If his son was
    young than it is much more likely to happen as a young new hunter
    tends to cover an area faster than an older more experienced hunter.
    	I'm not saying that what the guy did wasn't wrong, only that
    I can see where that could easily happen. If he didn't know where
    his son was he shouldn't have shot unless he was absolutely sure
    of his backstop. Obviously he wasn't. Thank god they weren't deer 
    hunting. It could have been much worse.

    RAYJ

    While looking through the latest issue of Dunn's clothing catalog
    where they claim"Furnishing the best in dog,horse and shooting sports
    equipment is Dunn's only objective" Isaw what appeared to be a scent
    pad used to apply a masking scent when deer hunting. But no..ready
    for this ? It was a "Shooter's toe gun rest" as described in the
    catalog "Protect your shoes and provide a firm surface on which
    to rest gun muzzle.Made of heavy leather with tab and snap to fit
    over shoelace." This certainly fits the has to be seen to be believed
    category. What's next a camouflage jacket made of Buckskin ?

    You see these toe rests alot on the skeet field.  Im with you though.
    I no more want to blow my toe off then I do my head.  I don't like
    it either.

    As Jeff said, you see a lot of them around trap or skeet fields.
    (not Jeff's Trap and Skeet field :-)
    
    Most of the shooters that I've seen using them have guns
    that break such as O/U's and BT-99's etc.  In this case, it
    gives the user a place to rest his/her gun.  I find it hard to blow
    one's foot off if the gun is open with no round(s) in the barrel(s).
    Under these circumstances I don't have an issue around safety.
    
    It probably also cuts down on the chance of getting mud/snow clogged
    in the barrel from resting it on the ground, which is a potential
    safety hazard.  In this case, it may induce safety.
    
    I, personally, don't own one, nor have I ever had the urge to buy
    one.  Even though I have felt the urge to rest my gun at times,
    I guess I too am not all that crazy about resting any gun barrel on
    my toe.       
    
    Seeing someone in the field with one would probably make me uneasy,
    though.

    It may be the way I was brouhgt up but I was taught never point
    a gun at anything you don't want to shoot.Treat every one as if
    it were loaded but "valuing differences" says to each their own.

    Me too, the rule in our house is "you don't point a gun at anything
    you aren't prepared to kill".
    Jeff
    

Seems to me that if you are going to be holding a gun so long as to need a toe
rest for it, then you should do one of 2 things (maybe both).  Either put the 
gun in the rack or else do more push ups.

I don't think that we should forget that while some of us may know what
we're doing with regards to safety, many other people (particularly
newcomers) don't. When they see us rest the muzzle of a gun on our foot
they may not realize all the mental checks we went through (or procedures
we have in place) to insure the gun was unloaded.  Hence the next time
they're out shooting a game of hand trap with the guys they rest the muzzle
of thier 870 on thier foot 'cause "that's what the guys at the club
do".  We should not only practice safe gun handling but we should also be 
aware of what kind of image we project to the "non-regular" gun handler.

Rich

    You guys are right.  After thinking about that for a while,
    I decided that yes, the rule "never point a gun at anything
    you don't intend to shoot" does apply.  For some reason, I
    can't get into this file for a few days at a time, so I was
    unable to respond sooner.  
    
    Recall that I said I don't own one, nor did I ever feel the urge
    to buy one.
    
    I don't think that anyone else should either for safety reasons.
    
    My apologies for not thinking.
    
    Brett.
    
    P.S.  I don't have any black rings on my shoes either from resting
    the barrel.

    
    	The most dangerous animal in the woods is your hunting partner.
    
    
    
    	Choose them wisely.
    
    
    	Bruce

    
    I was watching Michigan Outdoors, on one of the PBS stations, last week
    and a common, what I consider, unsafe practice was displayed by a
    guide.  The show was about rabbit hunting and the guide/host was
    walking around with his shotgun flung over his shoulder.  Where was the
    muzzle of his gun pointing?  I'm sure he didn't know since he didn't
    have any eyes in the back of his head that I could see.
    
    It totally disgust me when I see this kind of unsafe practices being
    displayed by so-called experienced hunters.  As soon as I can find the
    address to Michigan Outdoors, I'm going to write them.
    
    Roy...
    

    
    
    Reminds of a couple things I saw on the show with Wayne Pearson. One
    was an older guy crossing a waist high fence, gun in hand, and 3-4
    other guys standing there watching him. Then Wayne had his over/under
    slung broken open over his shoulder with shells in it and he was talking 
    with his hands. maybe these folks think they're so good *it* won't
    happen to them?
    
     Walt
    

   Re: Note 24.22 by REDHWK::FULTON "A man has to know his limitations!"
   

    
�    guide.  The show was about rabbit hunting and the guide/host was
�    walking around with his shotgun flung over his shoulder.  Where was the
�    muzzle of his gun pointing?  I'm sure he didn't know since he didn't
�    have any eyes in the back of his head that I could see.

   How do you mean "flung over his shoulder?"  Was the gun nearly
   horizontal, or was it within 20-30 degrees of vertical?  If it was
   the latter then this is an acceptable carry given there is no one
   behind him.
   
   It is the hunter's responsiblity to make sure the muzzle is pointed
   in a safe direction.  The shoulder carry can be used when you have
   made sure no one is behind you.

    re: .24
    
    In my opinion, anytime that you cannot see the muzzle somewhere in your
    scan of vision, you most certainly don't know what it is pointing at. 
    In my book, a safe carry position is one in which you know precisely
    where that muzzle is pointing and you can very, visually, that this is
    indeed a safe position at any instance in time.  Therefore, in my
    humble opinion, unless you have eyes in the back of your head an over
    the shoulder carry is not a safe carry.
    
    I won't hunt more than once with a person who is not muzzle conscious.
    
    Roy...
    

    I coundn't have said it any better Roy. My sentiments exactly.
    
    Bruce