Conference vicki::boats

    	Maybe he just wants to sell you a Merc ? I would have thought the
    same as you.
    
    	Ray

    I would say that the force weighs a bit more than the merc and the
    peak horse power may be at a lower rpm or the max rpm on the merc may
    be higher (merc-5800-6200rpm max, force-5200-5800) these #'s may not be
    to spec but you get the idea. He saying about 7 mph difference, that is
    alot I would say more like 37ish mph for the force based on my
    experience. Also a force is not a merc.
    
    					Jack 

    
    JoeT,
    
    Sometimes they measure the horsepower at different
    places (and I don't mean at two different lakse :^)  ).
    
    I could be that the Merc is measured at the prop, and
    the Force at the crankshaft.  By doing this, each
    brand looks better for the market they are targeting.
    They Merc would be showing better performance per horsepower,
    while the Force would show more horsepower for the $$$$.
    
    Just a guess.
    
    Of course I'd also like to know how Motorguide boosted the
    power of their 24v trolling from 56 to 70 lbs without
    changing anything essential!
    
    I wish Digital had such marketing!
    
    Gman
     

    
    
    `	could be gear ratios as well 
    
    	w/ski option will normaly be more turns of motor to prop than 
    	for a standard motor.
    
    	my 2c
    
    	the other reg
    
    
    
    

Merc (and OMC) lower units are hydrodynamically cleaner than Force lower
units. For a long time now I've wondered why Force doesn't clean theirs
up.  Most Force lower units look (to me, IMHO) like the lower units of
OMC 30, 40 years ago. Like they're still using the Scott-Atwater moulds.

I don't mean this as a condemnation; Force is an entry-level engine, and
it hits its market. A lot of people buy a Bayliner as their first boat
with a Force on the transom, and have a lot of fun with it.

Merc and OMC spend a lot of money on performance and R&D - and that cost
gets passed on the consumer in the form of higher prices for Merc and
Johnson and Evinrude. Force picks the lower-hanging fruit. 

It runs, it pushes the boat away from the dock, it gets you back. You got
what you paid for. You want flash and sizzle? Pay more.

JMHO,

Art

Gus... I could be wrong (I was once) but I think all manufacturer's have to
measure HP the same way (at the prop?).

Art's points are well taken plus I have to believe that prop pitch and design,
torque, and maybe a couple of other factors contribute to the lower 
performance.

Given a choice, I'd take the Merc over the Force.  My 25hp Merc has performed 
flawlessly for over 10 years!

thanks.

-joe-

    I have a `96 Force 75hp.  The performance difference might have to 
    do with prop/hub size. 
    
    The size of the prop/hub on the Force is much smaller than the Merc 
    or OMC.  I was amazed at how small it was when I got it.  I bought 
    it purely for price/performance.  I got it mail order, new in the 
    box for $3500. Anybody who has recently shopped for a 75hp outboard
    will appreciate how cheap that is.  I figured I got it so cheap that
    if I didn't like it I could trade up to a 'real' motor and not lose 
    much on the deal.  
    
    But it's been fine and I can't justify trading yet. 
    
    -donmac

    
       When the Yamaha Pro V-MAX 150 hit the water of august last year,
    the magazine testers had nothing but rave reviews as reported in this
    months Trailer Boats magazine. However, the performance was so stunning
    that many felt that the dual props could not account for the added
    performance alone. Well to make a long story short...The engine was
    finally put on a dyno and found to be making 162 HP at the propshaft!
    So...what have we learned from this?
    
    -john

Don...

I guess that means you'll have to put bigger DUAL props on your Force.  

In case you're trying to figure it out, just put one of em on backwards
to achieve the counter rotation like the Yamahahaha!  ;-)

-j-

I am strictly a novice at this but I have spoken to several dealers/mechanics
recently at sport/boat shows.  What I am hearing concerning Force is that
Mercury now owns Force and within the past 1 to 2 years have made significant
changes.  Specifically the ignition system, carburators and lower units on some
models are exactly the same (same replacement part numbers).  This is not true
in all cases and engine models.  No Force motors are available above 120hp and
none have oil injection.  Force motors do not use the same power heads as Merc.
These changes are reflected only on the newest models!


Many Mercury dealers now sell Force as well as Mercury.  The majority of 
Mercury dealers I spoke with indicated they are selling more Force engines all
the time (some say well over 50% of their new engine sales).  Go to a Tracker 
dealer to window shop, they sell both engines.

Again consider the source of my information as suspect, salesmen at boat shows.

    The horse power on all out boards is measured at the same point.
    If you look hard enough you can get both the crankshaft and the 
    propshaft specs.The manufactures dyno both power heads and complete
    assemblies(propshaft), but the spec you see is propshaft only. 
    This may have been different many years ago but to the best of my knowledge
    within the past ten years they standardized it to the propshaft!!
    Most mercs rarely are = to the hp spec, as you know no two engines
    are alike. As far as yamaha They are a pretty good outboard but
    the japanese do not follow code so they can be a little tough to
    troubleshoot. I would not trust there hp rating at all.
    For that much I would not trust to many of the other manufactures
    either. Its all a insurance game.I have lake tested maybe 1500-2000
    boats and many were new and had the same power package.
    I know that the boats create a big difference in performance
    but sometimes the difference is the engine, (less or more power).
    
    Getting back to the three different mph I still think its the power to
    rpm curve that is the real issue. Also Prop selection is extremly
    important when you start climbing in hp. Some after market props
    can add several mph with just the prop so who is to say that a prop
    for a merc is (better) than a prop for a force ( worse)???
    Anyway If the boat is the same and the only change is the motor
    --weight
    --power/rpm curve
    --prop design
    are the key differences. I have read and seen many motor tests and
    if you read the fine-fine print there is always something different
    about one motor usually the prop (aluminium vs stainless)
    (three bladed vs four/five bladed) etc. 
    
    				 	Jack
    
    
    
    

    I worked in the marine bussiness for five years (mercury/mariner/force
    /mecruiser) Mercury bought force which used to be Chrysler about 4 to 5
    years ago maybe more. Force has the same ignition as mercury and
    nothing else. The carbs,the powerhead and the lower unit are still
    basicly the same except for some minor changes but in no way are they
    the same as merc/mariner.I am not sure what the max hp is but what I
    remember is nothing above 120hp. 
    Force is the entry level engine that is typicaly used with
    bayliner/maxum (both boats are made by USA MARINE )which is own by
    brunswick corp who owns mercury marine and so on and so on and so on!!
    The reason mercury changed the ignition system is the old style was a
    troubleshooting nightmare!! and there ingition retrofitted perfectly.
    Anyway The reason for no oil injection is $$$$$$.
    
    
    					Jack  

    
       Back to the yamaha making 12HP more than its 150 rating...
    When an outboard is sold, Its required to make the HP rating stated.
    Two identical outboards may be different in the power they make but the
    lesser one must make the stated HP.
       Also, transom ratings as set by the industry are typically 25%
    better that whats on the Label attached to the boat. They do it for a
    safety margin because they know that some Bozo will always come along
    and ah....upgrade (^; Its a good way to protect themselves in a liability
    lawsuit.
    
    -john

 A few clarifications for you.

 1) Force did make a 150. It was a 5 cylinder in line motor.
 2) Force used to make a 125 but had to change it to the 120
    as it never produced 125hp.

 I had a bayliner in 1988 w/force 125. Never had any trouble
 with it. It is a basic motor with no frills.

 The Force/Bayliner was an excellent learning craft. Now that 
 I have moved up to a 200HP Evinrude. I have learned again.

 THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR MEER CUBIC DISPLACEMENT

 If you want a motor, buy a force
 If you want an engine, buy something else

 - Sully

    Sully,
      The Bassmaster west division is going to allow 250hp.
    Time to upgrade again!  :*)
    
    Gone fishin
    Gaffer

    
        Speaking of performance...Yesterday, myself and two of my daughters
    got a ride in a Checkmate 21' bowrider powered by a PAIR of 250 HP
    merc's. WOW! Once we cleared the 'nowake zone' and he nailed the
    throttles, I thought the seats were gonna rip out of the floor. This
    thing accelerates so hard that it makes you feel queasy. We got up to
    an indicated 86 MPH. Fast enough in that damn choppy water we were on.
    About the only information I got was that it burns a lot of gas and
    that it only carries 90 gallons.
         ANybody know what kind of price range this boat falls into?
    Other than the massive power output of this rig, the interior was
    fairly spartan. All it had was minimal instrumentation and a CD marine
    stereo.
    
    -john

    My off-base guess would be $15K for the hull, and $15K for each motor.
    Throw in a few bucks for a trailer and a CD player. $50K and it's
    yours.
    
    ~jeff

    I might be wrong here, but with 90HP Mercs in the 9~10K range, I'd
    guess a pair of 250's would sell for a LOT more than $15 each...

>>I might be wrong here, but with 90HP Mercs in the 9~10K range, I'd
>>guess a pair of 250's would sell for a LOT more than $15 each...
    
    Yes, I called a local dealer and the engines list for 22.5K each! yow!
    Anyway, I still want one of those Checkmates, If ya all sent me a few
    bucks a piece it would add up real quick and I could get a down payment
    started.  Thanks in advance.
    
    -john

>>>       <<< Note 1271.19 by CSC32::J_KALINOWSKI "Forget NAM?....NEVER!" >>>

>>> >>I might be wrong here, but with 90HP Mercs in the 9~10K range, I'd
>>> >>guess a pair of 250's would sell for a LOT more than $15 each...
    
>>>    Yes, I called a local dealer and the engines list for 22.5K each! yow!
>>>    Anyway, I still want one of those Checkmates, If ya all sent me a few
>>>    bucks a piece it would add up real quick and I could get a down payment
>>>    started.  Thanks in advance.
    
>>>    -john

	John, here's my contribution towards your new Checkmate.....

	$1.00


	It's not much, but it's a start ;-) ;-)......

	Norm

    >If ya all sent me a few bucks a piece it would add up real quick and 
    >I could get a down payment started.  Thanks in advance.
    
    Well, you could try one of the more brazen solicitations I've seen on
    Usenet: a teenager posting a "Please send me one dollar so I can buy
    this really neat BMW - after all, how much is one dollar worth to you"
    message to about a thousand newsgroups...
    
    (I think by now he's gotten about 10 thousand "GET A JOB YOU LEECH! 
    responses ;^)
    
    /dave
    
    /dave

>>Usenet: a teenager posting a "Please send me one dollar so I can buy
>>this really neat BMW - after all, how much is one dollar worth to you"
>>message to about a thousand newsgroups...
    
    
    Someone actually did this?  Hell...My request was only a joke.
    I woulda sent a negative balance to his bank account.
    
    -john

    Yeah, he actually did it. I picked up one of the gazillion off-topic
    cross-posts in either the r/c airplane or the flyfishing conference -
    can't remember which. It really carried the whole concept of
    pan-handling to the next level ;^)
    
    /dave