Conference vicki::boats

    Hmmm -- I seem to recall propane heaters in the BOAT U.S. catalog -- I
    'd check with them on the merits of propane heat -- All of the
    information needed regarding safety would be in the installation
    manuals -- BOAT U.S. has always been good on opening up the box to let
    U get at the manual.
    
    I use an electric heater -- I have a little 1500 Watt ceramic one that
    heats th boat nicely -- Another option is to run a heater off of the
    boat engine coolant system.
    
    Of course, I have to say, (As a true Powerboter) tha if tthe female
    passenger is cold, you could always have her turn to and clean up the
    boat!  That'll warm her up!  Of course you would need to supervise her
     -- And supervision is a lot of work -- which raises your temperature
     -- So that means you'll need a brewski to cool down -- Where is Brock
    Yates when U need'em!

    actually propane is about the safest fuel to use. there have been
    
    lots of reports to substantiate this. however the installation is
    
    the critical piece, and you'll find that it may also be expensive.
    
    to begin with you need a propane locker, $2-300, regulator& solenoid
    
    around $100. hose $	4.50/ft. heater not sure say $200, #10 aluminum
    
    tank, $130, at this point were up to $730 w/o hose which is a variable.
    
    JIm

    Or you could use what we use during winter steelhead season.  Just buy
    a 5 gallon propane bottle and attach a a heater directly to the bottle. 
    I think these heaters are called "sunflower heater" or something. 
    Anyway that's what they look like.  $29.95 and they'll drive you out of
    a closed boat.  I use mine on both boats - open sled boat and closed
    fishing boat.
    
    Ken

    
    its a great idea, but on a boat things are quite different.
    
    all have bilges, and all carry fuel, gasoline for the most part 
    
    in power boats.  if the tank were to leak, propane being heavier than
    
    air, it will collect in the bilge, on starting the engine, it well
    
    may be the last time the skipper did.
    
    there are very strict requirements for installing propane on a 
    
    vessel, the other is if you ever get boarded with the previously
    
    mentioned contraption, i doubt you could afford the fine.
    
    do it right or don't do it.
    
    whats your life worth$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
    
    
    JIm

    These are not made up contraptions.  Check your marine catalogues and
    you find them.
    
    Coast Guard has boarded both boats with these heaters running and have
    had no problems.
    
    Ken

    For a while, a lot of houseboats used propane. They mounted the tanks
    on the roof of the cabin. I had thought that the rules got more rigid
    with propane as few of the newer vessels offer it as a energy source.

    You know I must not have nade it clear.  These are not permanent. You
    just carry it on board when you're ready to go and set it on the deck
    in the cabin or whatever.  We use them in open aluminum sled boats when
    it's freezing (love that winter steelheading) and it will put out a
    blast of heat enough to keep that part of your body that it is pointing at
    quite warm.
    
    Sorry for the confusion.
    
    Ken

    Thanks for the replies thus far, great stuff, its becoming much
    clearer....
    
    >>> I have to say, (As a true Powerboter) that if tthe female passenger
        is cold, you could always have her turn to and clean up the boat!
    
        Doesn't work at home, I'd probably have less luck onboard!!!
    
    >>> ...actually propane is about the safest fuel to use.. however the
        installation is the critical piece...
      
        Jims comments confirmed what I suspected but could not back up with
        experience. Also I failed to make the logical connection that a
        permanent installation would be pricey to be safe. May not be
        worth-while for a 25 footer. Maybe that retirement vessel.
    
    >>> Or you could use what we use during winter steelhead season.  Just
        buy a 5 gallon propane bottle and attach a a heater directly to the
        bottle. 
    
        I'm using a similar device to the one Ken is describing while 
        the boat is drydocked, little larger I think, no way you can keep in 
        on for very long, quite effective. Never thought about using it while
        floating. Maybe the smaller version. Would also have to work out how
        to keep it from moving around, especially with my deep-v.
    
    >>> if the tank were to leak, propane being heavier than air, it
        will collect in the bilge....
    
        These heavier then air gases really bug me, can't wait to be
        able to afford diesal power. As for the propane, was thinking
        about reducing the risk by storing the tank outside the cabin,
        where the air moves things around a bit. The odor thats added
        is very helpful, I've detected leaks with the household tanks on
        2 seperate occasions.
      
    >>> Coast Guard has boarded both boats with these heaters running
        and have had no problems.
    
        They were probably glad to be able to warm up.
    
    >>> For a while, a lot of houseboats used propane. They mounted
        the tanks on the roof of the cabin. I had thought that the rules
        got more rigid with propane as few of the newer vessels offer
        it as a energy source.
    
        Would like to know more about this scenario. Roof seems like a
        reasonably safe place, especially if the lid were to blow
        off the locker.
    
    /def
    
                                                           
       

    Remember, you don't have anyplace to run if you have a fire/explosion
    on board.  If you look in any of the major marine catalogs you will see
    the propane hardware, and it will give you an idea of the hardware
    needed to put in a safe propane system.  I think the cure to propane
    safety goes well beyond putting the tank on a cabin roof.  You still
    have all that piping in the interior.
    
    The West Advisor had a good comentary on propane installations.
    
    Jeff
    

    
      Indeed, the propane container is hardly your worst problem. If you
    could somehow get a spark inside the bottle, nothing would happen
    anyway since there is no oxygen. The problems start when you have a
    leak inside ANY space that also has air. If the gas can collect to some
    minimum concentration and you have ANY type of ignition source - Boom!
    
    				Kenny

    
    some folks have them on the cabin roof, others have put them in
    the bridge. as long as it cannot collect, and is in a ventilated
    area, no problem.
    
    on investing in propane in a 25 ft. boat, its up to the owner.
    
    i agree there are alternatives to the ala grande hook up i described,
    but its the correct installation process.
    
    new boats that offer propane, are connected using this method.
    
    why, because it meets coast guard certification, and all surveyors
    will accept it as a proper installation.
    
    JIm

    I have a bunch of drydock work to do, went shopping for a 'sunflower' 
    heater, the kind Ken mentioned in note 3. My brother purchased one 
    previously, a Coleman, and brought it over to try out on my boat. Plenty-
    o-heat. Went out to buy the same unit from Sommerville Lumber, but was 
    told that they were out of stock. So, up to Home Depot, who also had none 
    in stock. Now I'm suspicious. Bugged the manager for more info, he finally
    tells me that the Colemans were sent back as defective, would not specify 
    in what manner. Ended up purchasing an alternate brand, "Heat Devil". I 
    tipped off my brother, who pushed for more info from Sommerville. The word
    'explosion' was mentioned. He bought a Heat Devil too. 

    
    Funny, when people say BOOM, customers say BYE.
    
    JIm

    .0
    
     For what its worth ... all my relatives that fish herring and 
     red fish (lobster) have propane heaters in the boats...havent heard
     of any accident/explosion/fire. Most of the setups are tank-copper
     pipe-department store camping heaters. The red fish season starts
     in November thru March (not 100% on dates) and gets dam cold on
     those Novi waters.
    
     regards
     BBrown

    The Northern Hydraulics Mail order catalog carries every style of
    propane and electric heaters on the market.  
    Wayne

    Re: Explosions IN propane tanks.  This is a moot point.  The tank
    ITSELF won't explode unless it is already involved in a well
    established fire and the safety valve can't vent propane faster than
    the pressure build up, which, actually seems to HAPPEN in big fires.
    (By then your either dead or overboard anyway). A far greater concern
    is a collection of propane gas in the bilges.... then..... starting
    the engine.  Bye bye.  I saw a photo of a boat which had had a propane
    explosion aboard and it looked as if someone took a fiberglass opener to
    it.
    
    Propane is no riskier than gasoline. 
    
    I suppose thats not saying much, seeing as gasoline is nothing to fool
    with but it puts the risk in perspective.  Actually I would bet a
    'proper propane installation' is less risky than a 'proper gasoline
    fuel system installation'.  Propane dissipates in the air quickly..
    spilled gasoline vapors tend to hang around allot longer.
    
    Jeff

    
    i guess the only other item i would recommend is a propane
    
    sniffer. 

    
    Just to clarify a point- Propane Vapot are heavier than air and will
    lay in the bige and wait for that spark-just like gasoline vapors.
    Natutral gas is lighter than air and will dissipate quickly.
    
     Propane is very volatile and vaporizes at atmospheric pressure an
    temperatures (I Should say it flashes to a vapor).
    
     Treat both with the utmost respect.
    
    Having been in the oil and gas business for the last 3 decades (even
    with Digital)- I would not use propane on a boat-it is under pressure,
    it has a high energy contne per cubic foot (about twice that of Natural
    gas,) and pilot lights,flames tend to go out.--- and then you go to
    light the second burner, or it hits the pilot light on the oven.
    
     Bad stuff in enclosed places.
    
    Dick
    

    Modern appliances have pilot light sensors, i.e. if the pilot goes out
    a thermocouple cools off and the main gas flow to the burner is
    disabled.  Also, new appliances have spark pilots instead of flame
    pilots.  Of course, the catch is that leaks can occur in gas lines and
    safety devices can fail.
    
    Jeff

    Topic 668 at UNIFIX::SAILING deals with the use of CNG verses propane,
    and mentions many of the issues mentioned in this conference. There are 
    also some words on alcohol burners, mostly negagive. The entries are dated
    from 1987, so things may have changed about some issues (like CNG
    availability). Overall, it appears that CNG has the safety edge over
    alcohol and propane. Top venting, less container pressure and no
    external locker requirements. Downside appears to be the amount of
    fuel you can store per tank, along with cost/availability. 

re .20:

Slight correction:

The pressure in a propane tank is about 150 psi, the pressure in a 
compressed natural gas tank is many times higher, more like scuba tank 
pressures (1200 psi). A propane tank lasts considerably longer than a 
CNG tank of equal volume since the propane is actually liquid in the 
tank. 

    Quite so, my thoughts got scrambled a bit in that reference to CNG
    pressure. Had just reread the notes, and Dicks entry (.18) mentioned
    that he wouldn't use propane due to its pressure tank, message being
    a pressurized tank of any sort should raise the caution flag. Now, with 
    propane, I'm assuming the pressure comes from the liquid-to-gas
    conversion, since you can't compress the liquid itself.
    

    Thats right on the propane, the pressure comes from liquid to gas
    conversion.
    
    Why is it a CNG tank will last a shorter period of time because its in
    a totally gaseous state vs. liquid with a gas over it? Is it simply
    because the CNG tank is under more pressure?
    
    Jeff

    
    the liquid represents condensed gas- one cu ft liquid will vaporize
    into sowher around 500 cu feet of gas (dep[ends on the gas). When I
    used to work on LNG stuff, it was 660:1 for Natural gas (but the liquid
    was at -259deg F!  Thus a tank of liquid proane weighs more than a tank
    of gaseous propane and holds about 500+ times as much energy.
    
     Natural gas (CNG) is usualy at 2500 psi Max- that means that once
    equilibrium is reached, a tank of GAS at2500 psi holds 2500/14.7 or
    about 170 times the volume of a tank at atmospheric pressure- propane
    liquid is about 500 times as much as gas. Account for the fact that
    propane heating value is approximately 1700 BTU/Cu Ft vs Natural Gas at
    1000 BTU per cu ft- a tank of propane will hold (500x1700)/(170x1000)
    or 5 times as many BTU's as an equivalent volume tank of CNG at 2500
    PSI!
    
    That's why propane fuled vehicles are much more attractive than CNG
    vehicles- especially if any long distance is involved. Add to the fact
    that a tank to hold 2500 PSI and any amount of volume is going to be
    exensive and/or heavy.
    
    Dick
    
    

    
      Great info, Dick. I knew some of that but you filled in some holes.
    
    				Kenny

    Right. Good info.  I guess the point is that the CNG tank fatigues
    faster is because its under much higher pressure?
    
    So that settles the question as to whether to use propane on CNG on
    board... (except for the heavier than air, propane, safety issue).
    
    Jeff

    One of the things that is done is to use a solenoid valve on propane
    that is powered ON- spring return off (fail-safe). You then must turn
    this valve on through a switch to allow propane to get to the stove
    and/or fridge. The valve could be wired througha combustible gas
    detector that would kill the power wgenever a combustible (explosive)
    mixture was detected.
    
     CNG scares me because of the very high pressures involved that
    represents a huge amount of stored energy. Most of the tanks I beleive
    are made of aluminum wrapped in Fibre -re-inforced plastic- the fibres
    are something like kevlar or carbon fibres for high strength. Since you
    would want these taks stored away from confined spaces (like having a
    hand grenade go off), they tend to be stored in lockers or other reas
    where they can be more subject to exposure to salt water and possible
    corrosion between tyhe filaments an the aluminum tank. 
    
     I guess I would feel best with CNG, however, as long as the tanks were
    stored far away from any cabins or quarters areas, and where the would
    do minmal damage to hull integrity if they decide to let go.
    
     I use propane in my summer cottage that has no electric power, But in
    a well ventilated area. I use propane for refrigeration, hot water, and
    cooking, as well as lighting. I would not ue the same set up on a boat.
    
      It boil down to a matter of choice and what you feel is best for your
    situation. The bottom line is either CNG or propane is potentiallly
    hazardous and appropraite safety procedures and good installation
    adhering to  good safety practices is required.
    
     A couple of good combustible vapor detectors with LOUD alarms is
    mandatory in my opinion.
    
    Dick