Conference vicki::boats

    Dennis, this sounds backwards from what I have experienced.  I tried
    using Mobil 1 in my Dodge 318 van engine with 70K miles on it.  I made
    a trip from N.H. to N.J. and was down 2 quarts when I arrived.  Not
    leaking,  just "sneaking" by the rings cause it was so much more
    "fluid-ish".  (New word- 5 points :-)
    
    Unless you didn't use oversized rings if you bored the engine, then
    what you are seeing doesn't make any sense.  Do you have FWC or RWC?
    I'm wondering if maybe you have a head gasket leak that is allowing the
    oil to mix with the coolant water around the head gasket and get washed
    out the exhausts.  If you have FWC, I doubt it could occur but maybe if
    you have raw water cooling?  Just a wild guess.  Obviously you would
    have mentioned to us if your bilge was full of the missing oil.
    Wayne

    
      If the valve guides were not redone with the rebuild or you
    mixed-N-matched valves when you put it back together, you could easily
    lose that much past the guides. I've also heard what Wayne has
    suggested; that the oil could be sneaking past the rings. I kind of 
    doubt the head gasket since in most engines, (And 454 Chevy's for sure)
    there is no oil under pressure going into the head past the gasket - 
    if the gasket was leaking, you'd get water in the oil, since the water
    IS under pressure in the head.
    
    				Kenny

    I am not sure about 454 cheevies but most American blocks have valve
    seals that should be replaced whenever you "do the heads". If these are
    not replaced, oil is sucked down the guides when the engine is backed
    off. Mix/matching the valves will exacebate the situation. As a rule
    the valve guides should have been "done" with the heads and new valves
    installed.
    
    If this is the case, rev that sucker up and back off quickly. If this
    is followed by a puff of blue (wonder of synthetics burn blue - I've
    never tried it) smike out the exhaust it probably is oil going down the
    guides. Usually, this behavior results in a steady oil loss over time,
    nothing radical, as you seen to have observed.
    
    If it was the rings, the oil loss probably would have been more severe
    and more noticeable. It would likely be present most of the time.
    However if the rebuild was good, the cylinders appropriately machined
    and the rings correctly sized and seated it is unlikely (but not
    impossible). Check for blue smoke when idleing or at load for this
    characteristic. 
    
    If these fail, hunt the wumpus time. Look for oil in RWC discharge or
    in the FWC system. Check all seals as syns tend to sneak by the seals
    much easier than your Jurassic types. Just because your bilge isn't
    full of oil doesn't mean it didn't happen as it could have burned off.
    Check the valve covers to be sure they are sealing properly.
    
    You don't have all the antismog crap to deal with but also check and
    make sure that breather caps and vacuum lines are ok. You could blow
    oil out of the crankcase at high RPMS (but this you would probably
    see) if these aren't 100%. Also, bolts have a strange way of loosening
    over the winter storage. Must be mice with wrenches.
    
    And, try calling the oil company that made the syn for advice. They
    might have a few clues that I don't since my experience with syns (not
    sins) is now exactly 1000 miles old.
    
    Failing all else, re-torque the heads. This will have the same placebo
    affect as a Digital reorganization.
    

    
    when rebuilding an enging they will generaly hone-"rough up" the bores
    this allows oil to be trapped in the roughness and not scraped down by
    the oil rings. so slightly greater than normal oil usage is expected
    in a motor that hasnt bedded in yet. if you look at a new motors bore
    you can see a real crosshatch effect.
    
    id wait until full runin has been done before worrying about oil 
    consumption unless its really high for the hours you are doing.
    
    tks reg
    

    First, let me admit total lack of know how in rebuilding an engine. 
    It's one of those things that I want to do just so I can say I did it
    but haven't had the time or place (or need) as of yet.
    
    I did have a 302 Ford engine rebuilt by a local rip-off auto repair
    shop (but that's a different story).  I sold the car to my
    brother-in-law without having put more than 50 miles on the engine.
    He ran it for the break-in period and then sold it to another auto
    mechanic because he couldn't afford to keep it in oil.  The auto
    mechanic tore the engine down and told my brother-in-law that the 
    rings wer installed in the wrong order.  I guess there is an "oil
    ring" that should have been at the bottom but was placed at the top of
    the piston.  This allowed excessive oil past the rings which the
    original rebuilder told me was "normal" until the engine was broken in.
    Of course the original rebuilder wouldn't honor the 90 day/1000 mile
    warranty because I was no longer the owner.  (Then again, he was the 
    same guy who quoted me $1200 and handed me a bill for $2500 and then
    wouldn't give me the car cause I wouldn't pay him and I had to contact
    the attorney general's office.  Wait a minute.  I promised I wouldn't
    tell this story but if anybody needs to know who this person in Nashua,
    NH., is I would gladly share off line before somebody else get's taken.
    Btw, I paid $1200 plus the ten percent over the estimate allowed by
    N.H. law.)
    
    Anyways, I don't know if there is such a thing is the rings being
    different but you might want to think about it.
    Wayne

    Oh boy :^( ! 
    
    I see my note re .4 did not get in, connection lost was the culprit.
    
    When rebuilding an engine, the cylinder bores are honed (machined) to
    remove the ridge that is worn into the cylinder walls over time. This
    ridge develops at the compression (top most) ring at TDC. It is simple
    mechanical wear. The cross hatching is an artifact of the machining
    process and has nothing to do with "catching oil". The stones on the
    hone make cuts into the cylinder on the down and up strokes and this
    results in that cross hatch pattern that is observed.
    
    If this ridge is not removed and new rings installed on the piston, it
    usually spells disaster as either rings or the piston crack or break
    when the newly rebuilt engine is restarted. After honing (and some
    blocks cannot be honed or must be honed too much) the mechanic needs to
    assure that appropriately sized new rings are installed on the pistons.
    The pistons themselves may have to be sized or even replaced. This
    depends on the amount of material removed from the cylinder walls and
    the condition of the pistons.
    
    Normally, a piston has three rings. The top most is the compression
    ring and ensures a good mechanical seal (figuratively speaking - we are
    talking about things that need to slide past each other) so that
    compression is achieved and power accomplished when the F/A mixture is
    burned. The bottom two rings are oil control rings and prevent almost
    all the oil from entering the combustion chamber.
    
    All of these rings need to be appropriately sized and seated (something
    like seating a valve) when the engine is rebuilt. Normally, one would
    not notice any oil comsumption after a proper rebuild, just as one does
    not with a new factory engine.
    
    Sometimes, particularly with race engines, the rings may be seated
    loose to improved HP (not done too much these days). With this
    arrangement, there is some oil comsumption, but not a heck of a lot.
    
    If your engine was properly rebuilt you should not experience oil
    consumption. Loss of oil is a warning sign and should be investigated
    whenever noticed. In your case I would do a very thorough inspection
    and investigation to determine where that oil went. Even doing a
    compression check when all else is exhausted and re-torqueing the heads
    as well. Oil does get to the rocker galleries under pressure on some
    engines.
    
    More than likely, the cause is not mechanical but a seal. However, if
    you can't find a leak, do the test for the valve guides first.
    
    Old number 88
    

    
    re -.1
    i disagree with you about the cross hatcing on the bore
    however i do agree with the rest of what you said.
    the ridge is taken out either by rebore or a ridge remover if its
    not excessive.eg. the diameter at the top of bore in relation to the
    bottom is not out of spec.(the top of a cylinder wears quicker than
    the bottom due to less oil at the top of a cylinder)
    then wed use the honing stones to crosshatch the rest of the bore
    we beleive to hold oil.
    until these were smoothed off by running in and the protective tin
    coating on the rings worn away we would expect some oil to be used.
    the oil gets into the fine hones and as the piston
    comes down the oil ring slides over the top of the cross hatches
    leaving oil on the sides of the chamber,some of this would be burnt
    as the fuel ignites. 
    
    tks the other reg
    
    
    

    
    
    	There has been two instances where I have had engines burn small
    quantities beyond normal which were difficult to find at first.  The
    first was I had a engine rebuilt and it worked perfectly except that
    the oil consumption was approximately one quart per 1500 miles.  The
    engine would smoke slightly at times but the mechanic could not find
    any thing wrong.  Finally, he noticed with all breathers and pcv valves
    disconnected and blocked there was still a slight vacuum in the
    crankcase.  The problem was a very small leak in the intake manifold
    gasket between the intake valves and lifters.
    	The second oil consumption problem was when I first started the
    engine it would smoke.  It appeared that it was a problem with the
    valve guides or valve seals leaking oil down on to the piston after
    the engine was stopped.  The problem turned out to be a faulty PVC
    valve that was leaking oil into the intake manifold and it form a
    small puddle in the manifold and it would cause the engine to smoke
    only on start-up.
    	Hope you find your problem.  From my experiences I have found it
    very diffucult to find a oil comsumption  problem.  Good luck.
    
    		George
    

    How about sending an oil sample out for analysis?  (kinda reminds me
    of the joke about mail order urine analysis...)
    
    Carl

    Thannks for all of the insight.
    
    Tis a tale of woe -- When I bought the boat, it had been repowered with
    new engines -- 350H/P Crusaders -- 
    
    When the engines were put into the boat, the engine/tranny combo had
    the reversal in the tranny (As opposed to R/H, L/H rotation engines). 
    The previous owner had spec'd a low ratio tranny originally -- 
    
    When he ran it, he couldn't get more than 1800 RPMs out of the engines. 
    He replaced the trannys with 2:1 ratio and got what he was looking for
    
    UNFORTUNATELY, the new trannys need the reversal in the engines.  
    Soooooo - now he had Left Hand Rotation in the Starboard hole and Right
    Hand Rotation in the Port hole.
    
    When I asked about how it handled (Was on blocks for 5 years before I
    bought it), he said: "No Problem."  I asked if it acted squirly when it
    backed down -- Nah, he says.
    
    Well,  my Marine mechanic and I decided to swap powerplants between
    holes.  That was everything would be where they needed to be.
    
    Was a fun switchero because the only way the engines got into the boat
    was as short blocks through a window.  
    
    Anyway -- I had my oldest step son (Who knows everything - Just
    ask'em.) take the carb apart on the port engine to see if I had any
    problems with varnish, before I turned over the engines (These engines
    had about 20 hours on'em when I bought the boat.)
    
    Anyway, as I recall, he dropped a small screw into the intake manifold
    -- He tried to get it out but couldn't find it -- So he says -- Don't
    worry -it'll clear through the exhaust valve --
    
    He lied!
    
    Anyway --- Puked the engine after about 30 hours on her bottom with me
    the new owner!  Awwww U-know!
    
    Of course I couldn't tell my wife her son done me wrong, so I blamed it
    on the mechanixs who dropped the iron into the holes first.
    
    Sooo, we replaced the the right head (Busted) and we (marine Mechix and
    me) sleeved a cylinder (cracked).  The block work wuz done by a
    performance shop and they oversized the cylinders -  Then they matched
    pistons to the new 30 thousandth over cylinder holes.
    
    Didn't touch the left head -  It only had about 50 hours on it -- Well,
    may have had the valves ground 00 can't remember.
    
    We put the engine back together -- We kept the lifters in the same
    rotation -- we may have put the push rods into other holes -- With only
    50 hours on the engine, it shouldn't matter.
    
    Regarding oil in the bilge -  There ain't no friggin' oil in my bilge!! 
    
    At least that's what I believe -- I don't see any chocolate water when
    I look -- BUT now that I recall, I believe that under the tranny I
    had an oil film -- I thought it had to do with filling the trannys with
    fluid -- That may be where I should look --  We were careful with the
    sealing tricks in the corners -  I believe the seal could only be put
    in one way.
    
    The oil hose from the cooler is back there by the oil input -- Hmmm --
    It's gotta be there -- If I have a leak around there, I should see oily
    water when I pump the bilge -- 
    
    I'll look there -- thanks for all of the insight -- What about that
    teflon stuff -- Yeah or nay?
    
    Regards,
    
    Dennis   
    

    
    Dennis,
    
    	Gee, I was going to ask what kind of reverse gears were in this
    boat, but it just occurred to me that I'm missing one piece of info...
    
    	I know that my Warner Velvet Drive can handle both RH and LH
    by merely turning the plate located around the input shaft, but does
    this merely allow the motor to be RH or LH and the prop would turn
    whichever way the motor is turning? In other words, if you have an
    LH motor your prop will be LH and setting the faceplate in the reverse
    gear merely allows the pump to operate correctly? So, you can't have
    an LH motor and an RH prop, right?
    
    	I know we've discussed this before, but I forget... and the file
    is a little slow these days...
    
    Rick CA_is_now_mothballed_boo_hoo!

    Rick:
    
    I have Borg Warner Velvet Drives and my marine mechanix told me that
    the RH engine was connected to the tranny it needed to be in the stbd
    hole.  Same was true for the Port engine -- He didn't say anything
    about the face plate -- As I recall, to do anything with the tranny, U
    had to break into it.
    
    Everything now is where it belongs all the way down to the props - But
    I agree -- this RH, LH stuff is more than mere mortals can comprehend
    -- I had anudder boat with 250 Crusaders -- Ford Blocks -- Puked one
    -- I got a truck block from the junk yard and rebuilt that -- Funny
    thing about that stuff -- If you are going to make a standard rotation
    engine become a reverse rotation engine, you absolutely need to ensure
    that the back end of the crank isn't grooved for bearing lubrication --
    
    Of course mine did have those grooves -- and of course, the new main
    seal wouldn't work with a crank running backwards.   And of course,
    that means you are going to get oil into the friggin' bilge -- Which
    makes everyone in your marina Pissed.
    
    I pulled the engines after that bad season and took them to a machine
    shop and said to go through them and find the oil leak -- It turned out
    that we had to lap the back of the crank to get out the grooves  --
    then we had to use the old style seal to make everything work -- Kept
    the boat one more year and got out of it -- Shudda sunk the damn thing!
    
    Boating -- Gotta love it!
    
    Dennis

    
    Dennis,
    
    	My first suggestion is CHECK YOUR OIL more often! Egads, it took
    most of a season for you to notice this oil problem. I attempt to
    follow my owner's manual on this topic and check the oil every day
    I use the boat. Enough for goody two shoes, huh?
    
    	On the oil consumption... my first suspicion... it's the port
    engine and that's the one that had the head work, something's not
    right....
    
    	I assume this is a rather large boat since it's a twin screw,
    I'd further assume that the head work was done properly and that
    no cracks exist in the head or block.... (Hmmm... wasn't there
    a fix to the block?) If these assumptions are correct, the first
    place I'd look is in the bilge. Is it possible that some valley
    exists in the bilge behind the engines? Maybe the oil is hiding
    and not readily visible? 
    
    	Also, have you had the opportunity to run this boat while out
    of the water? This would let you get a good look at the exhaust for
    the possibility of inappropriate smoke....
    
    
    Rick

    I have a complete set of Warner drive manuals, should anybody have a
    particular question.  Basically, most of the Warners are indexed for
    direction of rotation by the face plate but some can be used to create
    a reverse rotation situation without having to get a more expensive
    reverse rotation engine in a dual engine application.  It's all done
    with the shift lever mechanism.  I guess long periods in "reverse"
    won't do them harm unlike the 1:1 ratio Velvet drive I have in my
    Century.  
    Wayne

    Rick:
    
    Re: .14
    
    I know -- I know -- Everytime U use the boat U check the oil -- The
    boat is a 42 footer and to get into the Engine Room, I have to go into
    the galley and open a hatch into the ER. Then I have to crawl down
    between the engines and do the deal -- I always have a tough time not
    spilling my beer when I do that!!
    
    Next season I'll check it everytime -- It's habit because I always put
    my nose into the ER to sniff before I start the engines.
    
    Regarding the port engine repair -- The sleeve work on the roached
    cylinder was done by a precision marine shop -- If that was bad, I'd
    get water in the oil.  The right head had the exhaust valve ((or what
    was left of it) imbedded into the top of the head.  The way the engine
    finally puked was when I was running about 3300 RPMs and the sick
    cylinders broken valve fell out of the hole it made in the head.
    
    Water from the raw water pump ended up filling all of the cylinders - 
    Tis true -- U cannot compress a liquid -- Two connecting rods were
    bent.
    
    I'm going to do two things this spring:  Search under to engine by the
    rear main and by the oil hose connection for a leak -- Failing there,
    I'm going to a fossil based oil.  As I recall, I was okay on level
    until I went to the Synthetic -- But I may be wrong.
    
    I don't have blue smoke ever in either engine -- So I'm sure that it
    isn't going out the exhaust.
    
    Dennis

    i was aboard a bertram 35' several years ago. in order to check
    
    the vitals he had to rip up his salon.  bertram when they built 
    
    it and to avoid all this, cut round plugs in the salon deck,
    
    over for example the dip sticks, even tho he had carpeting
    
    the carpet was glue down, and also glued to the plugs, you could
    
    barely see the outline of these, but they were visible enough,
    
    you could get a grip on the carpet and remove the plug, and
    
    reach the dipstick, or whatever.  suggest you do something 
    
    similar, that way you can keep the cold one nearby....
    
    JIm

    
    
    	I have seen in cars that they have low oil sensors.  Mabey you
    could find remote oil sensors and install them to tell you when you
    are one quart low.  This would be the easiest way to constantly
    monitor your oil.
    
      George

    i have a friend who (now retired) was a boatyard owner as well
    
    as a mechanic.  he once told me a boat engine will use about 1%
    
    in oil of the total fuel it consumes.  so 100 gals fuel=
    
    1 gal. oil.   sounds high doesn't it...???
    
    guess we better carry spare oil..
    
    JIm

    Suggestion #1.
    
    	Put step son in ER - permanently. Have SS report on engine oil
    levels and other engine vitals, hourly - even when you are at home.
    
    Suggestion #2.
    
    	You can get phosphorescent dyes that you add to the oil and then
    search for the leak via UV light. Of course, I have no idea whether
    they are compatible with syns or not.
    
    Suggestion #3.
    
    	Are you absolutely sure that you do not get oil smoke from the
    exhausts when you - rev engines to 3300 rpm and then drop the throttle
    to idle instantly? It would be a temporary phenomenon if oil is being
    sucked down the valves or past the rings.
    
    Suggestion #4.
    
    	Are you sure the engine was topped with oil at the beginning of the
    season (you didn't let SS fill them did you)?
    
    Suggestion #5.
    
    	Did you put valve stem seals on all valve stems? These look like
    o-rings and go on before one seats the spring.
     
    Suggestion #6.
    
    	Synthetic oils tend not to discolor(turn black). Did the bilge water 
    have any dis-coloration to it at all? It would be more a very light
    tan.
    
    Suggestion #7.
    
    	Have you noticed any blue smoke from the ER breathers at anytime?
    These tend to be over the side so you may not have noticed. The engine
    might be burning the oil off in the ER. Put I would think you would
    smell this if you sniffed the engine room while the engines were hot.
    
    Suggestion #8.
    
    	You ran the engine on fossil oil for 30 hours. How long did you run
    the engine for the season with the synthetic oil? If it was
    substantially more than the 30 hours, and oil loss is linear over
    operating time, then you might not have noticed the oil loss with the 
    fossil based oil, even though some did take place.
    
    Oil doesn't evaporate. Those 3 quarts of synthetic oil went somewhere.
    Either they burned off or they leaked. Either way, finding out how and
    why may save you a tow from who knows where.
    
    88
    

    re .19
    
    	sounds like a WW-II fighter plane, not a modern engine in a boat!
    

    From my own and friend's experiences with synthetic oil:
    	"it will find a passage for leakage like you never imagined"

    I like the suggestion of SS posting guard on the engines! :-)

    I did kinda forget about the fact that you'd changed to synthetic...
    My first and last experience with synthetic oil was in a slant-6
    with about 13k miles on it (yup, that's 13,000)... Anyway, it leaked
    like a sieve on Mobil-1 from just about everywhere and anywhere.
    Needless to say, that motor was immediately switched back to the
    stuff from the ground and no more leaks.

    Whew!!! Thanks for all of the insight -- I especially like the ones
    regarding the SS.  
    
    On my boat -- The USS SCURVY QUEEN, I am but only the Captain and the
    Shi&&y Little Jobs Officer (SLJO).  My spouse is the Fleet Admiral, and
    keeping with the tradition of Beer Swilling Powerboter's, she is
    affectionately known as Admiral Bimbo -- Every boat needs a Bimbo!
    
    Any way (This is really a story about SS.), the Admiral is responsible
    for sailing orders and Ports-o-call.  One destination was a place
    called warm water bay in Lake Erie.
    
    I put the nose of the Queen on the shore -- The stern was in 9 feet of
    water.  
    
    As the day progressed, the brewskis made folks a little loose - I
    convinced the SS to jump off of the cabin top into the water -- The
    cabin top is about thirteen feet off the H2O.  The man is now sporting
    a new set of earings.
    
    And there ain't no friggin' way that guy is touching anything on the
    boat.
    
    The one note with a bazillion suggestions -- I'm printing it and am
    gonna C what I find 
    
    The Admiral won't let me cut a hole in the main salon deck -- I'll just
    have to check the oil before my first brewski -- That means I'll have
    to do it before breakfast!  ARRRGGHHHH!
    
    Happy Hoildays.
    
    
    Dennis

    sorry about "before breakfast" that gets frustrating. every time i look
    at my watch, its always beer:30. 
    
    on the synthetic oil, way back, and long ago, somewhere in this
    notesfile, we discussed synthetic oil. one caveat was switching
    after the engine had some miles on it, like after break-in.
    going beyond the break-in and switching caused problems like
    leaking.
    
    
    
    
    so my suggestion here is to go to, or go back to regular oil.
    if the leak persists, and none is in the bilge, you have to be burning
    it.
    
    
    on cutting a hole in the deck, the hole i had previously mentioned
    was in the order of 3" in dia. not a hatch.
    
    JIm