Conference vicki::boats

    Howdy,
    
    I currently tow my boat with a 1988 Wrangler.
    
    The boat is not nearly as big as a 19' Larson.  It's a 16' aluminum
    bassboat, 75hp outboard, on a very sturdy trailer.  When loaded 
    with 12 gallons of gas, three large marine batteries, and full load 
    of other tackle/gear, I would estimate the weight of the rig to be
    in the 1200-1400 lb range (I used to have a 1000 lb rated trailer
    that was pretty overloaded with this rig).
    
    The Jeep is a 4.2l 2bbl, standard transmisson, with approximately
    150,000 miles on it, so it's probably a bit "tired".  The jeep
    handles my boat pretty well  long hills on the highway can be a
    bit slow, but nothing too serious.  I tend to tow the boat pretty
    long distances as well.
    
    I have never towed a larger boat with mine, but I would suspect
    pulling a boat the size you mention would certainly be pushing
    the limit.  I would estimate a 19' boat to be in the 3000+ lb
    range.  At that kind of weight I would suspect that the "Tail 
    wagging the dog" syndrome might be a concern.  Also, it will put 
    substantial stress on the jeep, unless the vehicle is equipped to
    pull the higher weights (ie. Larger radiator, tranny/oil cooler 
    etc.)
    
    This probably doesn't completely answer the question, but at least
    it's *some* additionarl info.
    
    Gus-man
     

My friend has been towing a 17' Whaler Montauk with 100hp Johnson, 2
12-gallon tanks, 2 batteries... since I sold it to him... with his
Wrangler and now with his Cherokee.

No known problems.

Art

    Thanks guys, interesting info.  Maybe I should just try it and if I
    flip over...

    
      I've pulled 2200 lbs with a CJ7 which is better (wider) that a CJ5
    and not as good as a Wrangler should be. Power or frame strength is not
    an issue with the Jeep. It is more than powerful enough and more than
    strong enough. The problem will be in a panic stop or an accident. It
    will jacknife more easily than many cars or larger vehicles due to the
    shorter wheelbase. I would say that with a good hitch rated at least
    #3500 lbs and the proper cooling setup, you should be ok. You'd be a
    lot *more* ok if you also had trailer brakes.
    
    				Kenny

    	Find out what the rated capacity is for the vehicle.  If you're
    towing more than the vehicle is rated for and you get in an accident
    you may find out that your insurance will not cover you.
    
    					B.C.

    I've been in my brother's 88 wrangler pulling an 18' stingray.
    That is why I decided to go with an s-10 blazer!!
    fishtail city.

    From March 1993 Trailer Boat Magazine " '93 Tow ratings":
    
    Wrangler, all engines, 2000 lb tow limit (requires frame mounted class
    III hitch).
    
    Not much you can tow that weighs under 2000 lbs including trailer!
    Have you weighed the Larson with trailer when fully loaded with gear?
    
    I remember going down Rt 495 and seeing a CJ5 upside down on thew side
    of the road with the UHAUL trailer they were trying to tow still
    connected to the Jeep and still right-side up.  A classic example of
    the "tail wagging the dog"  when you try to tow a vehicle that has a
    longer wheelbase than the tow vehicle.  You may be ok for short
    distances but I would be very hesitant to venture out on the main
    highways where a passing trailer truck can get the trailer swaying.
    
    Wayne

    One more thing.  The tow limit of the Cherokee which comes with
    basically the same power train as a Wrangler can tow up to 5000 lbs.
    The obvious difference between the two vehicles is the wheelbase (and
    to a lesser extent, the center of gravity).
    Wayne

    Fishtailing has little to do with overall weight of the trailer and/or
    tow vehicle, and everything to do with tongue weight.  The tongue
    weight MUST be about 10% of the trailer weight; if it is 5% or less,
    you WILL get fishtailing.  What you won't get with an overloaded Jeep
    is brakes.  The short wheel base will tend to jack knife easily in
    panic stop situations.  Jitterbugs (small trailer trucks with usually a
    stubby cab over tractor) are in fairly common commercial use, but the
    trailers have brakes, so a short wheel base is not necessarily bad.  
    
    The weight rating includes the trailer, the luggage, the people in the
    car, lunch, the dog, etc., make sure you include them.  
    
    Carl

>    you WILL get fishtailing.  What you won't get with an overloaded Jeep
>    is brakes.  The short wheel base will tend to jack knife easily in
>    panic stop situations.  Jitterbugs (small trailer trucks with usually a
>    stubby cab over tractor) are in fairly common commercial use, but the
>    trailers have brakes, so a short wheel base is not necessarily bad.  
    
    Interesting thought........
    
    	Granted, improper tongue weight will no doubt cause fishtailing,
    but I always thought that towed weight vs. tow vehicle weight was
    also a major cause. Is the gaining factor here merely trailer brakes?
    Of course, I would assume that 18 wheelers do not simply have surge
    brakes as normally found on boat trailers. I believe they are direct
    hydraulic hookups.  Anyone know?
    
    	Would the difference between surge and "real" trailer brakes be
    what we are talking about here? In other words when the brakes are
    applied on an 18 wheeler, even very lightly, the brakes are also
    activated on the 18 wheeler's trailer. The same is not true for
    a boat trailers surge brakes, where a certain about of pressure
    must be reached before the brakes are engaged. Also, I assume it
    would be much more desireable to have the trailer brakes engage
    first.
    
    	I still think the answer to towing in excess of 3000 lbs
    with a Wrangler rated 2000 lbs is.... "not with my equipment or
    with me in the truck!"....
    
    Rick
                                                             

    Rick - Having a larger and heavier tow vehicle can and does make up for
    some amount of trailer fishtailing. If the trailer would only fishtail
    a little, it will certainly be harder for it to move around a larger
    vehicle. Of course, if it normally fishtails a little on a large
    vehicle and you put the same trailer on a smaller one, it may be
    untrailerable. 
    
      Small wheelbase vehicles have another 'problem' that affects towing,
    they turn faster than long wheelbase vehicles. This makes them much
    more sensitive to how carefully they're driven. If you're sloppy on the
    wheel, you're much more likely to induce fishtailing.
    
      On 18 wheelers and the like, there is a complete hydralic braking
    system for the trailer built in to the main system. All the brakes come
    on at the same time.
    
    				Kenny

    I was thinking of this boat trailer as having 0 brakes, I agree that it
    should have at least surge brakes.  Camping trailers have brakes that
    don't rely on surge, yet folks get 'em to fishtail, flip over, and
    other uglyness.  As I said, too little tongue weight is the usual
    reason for a fishtailing problem.  It is exacerbated by soft or loose
    suspension in either the tow vehicle or trailer.  Long overhang from
    the rear wheels to the hitch exagerates the (undesirable) sideways
    movement that the suspension allows, which is why tractor trailer
    combos put the hitch load directly over the rear axle.  Actually, this
    would argue for the Jeep, since it has little overhang, and tight
    suspension.  I thought Jeeps were relatively heavy critters, anyone
    know how much they weigh?  
    
    Full size Blazers make relatively good tow vehicles; are they that much
    different from a Jeep, other than maybe power?
    
    Carl

    
      Wranglers weigh about 3100 lbs. Cherokees about 3250. S10 Blazers
    weigh about 3700. Land Cruisers(AKA Land Crushers) about 4100.
    
      Full size Blazers weigh about 4400. I would imagine that weight is a
    good reason why they tow well.
    
    				Kenny

    Moderator, please point me in the direction of the trailer truck note
    if you want.  Tractor trailers have air brakes not hydraulic.  The
    brakes are normally on until the air hoses are connected to the
    trailer.  Once the pressure is in place, the brakes go off.  The
    tractor has a lever on the steering collumn to activate just the
    trailer brakes should the driver need to get the trailer back in check.
    Also a good way to save the brakes on one's tractor when hauling somebody
    elses trailer :-)  A boat trailer could also be equipped with a hand
    brake lever set-up if the trailer has hydraulic brakes.  This set-up is
    used often on large camping trailers.
    Wayne

   I read the trailering notes with especial interest.  I can shed some
personal experiance on the similarities (and differences) between 
commercial trailering and recreational trailering.  The most obvious is
that commercial trailering uses equipment designed for that purpose. 
Recreational trailering uses equipment "adapted" to that purpose.
Whats a given below is that the suspension and connection of the
components are designed to take the loads required and that the
braking systems of the components are equal to the task of stopping the
combination.

   A single axle commercial tractor might weigh in the vicinity of 12,000 to
15,000 lbs.  It can safely handle a  trailer weighing 13,000
lbs (empty) loaded out with 40,000 lbs of cargo assuming the trailers rear
wheels are properly set to distribute the load among the trailer wheels
and 5th wheel of the tractor.  In the extreme, too much weight on the 5th 
wheel and you overload the rear suspension and unweight the steering wheels;
too much on the trailer wheels you unweight the driving wheels as the rig 
bumps along the roadway.  Anything other than optimal results in the same
action with less effect.  Both cases affect the handling negatively. This 
compares directly to tongue weight on the boat trailer.  The idea is to have 
the 'weight coupling' between the two vehicles spread out over the two 
suspensions within the limits that are allowed by the hauling vehicle. 
Too much tongue weight and the trailer weight couples with the rear wheels
of the pulling vehicle and it begins to steer from the rear.  Too little
and it will couple with the front wheels and if it were not for that
little detail of a swivel point in the middle, would steer like a big long 
straight truck.  But, since there is a swivel, and it cant break the pulling
units rear wheels free pushing them sideways, it wanders around behind trying 
to steer ( fishtailing ).

   This balance really does not have alot to do with the wheelbases of the
respective components.  It's not uncommon to have a tandem axle tractor
with a 20' plus wheelbase pull a 20' sea container loaded with 45,000 lbs
of cargo (60,000 + gross trailer weight)  or a 12' wheelbase single axle city
tractor haul a 45 foot trailer with the same gross weight.  All that is 
required is that the trailer be adjusted for the proper weight distribution 
required by the tractor. 

   Wheelbase does have everything to do with the cruising
and stopping stability of the coupled unit.  I remember from my driving days
that the "angle of no return" for a jacknife was listed as 15 degrees.  Let
the trailer 'push' the tractor that far out and you could not recover.  Since 
the rig breaks at the tractors rear wheels, the longer the wheelbase of the 
tractor, the 'furthur' it had to be pushed to exceed 15 degrees.  The little 
short wheelbase 'city units' were really squirrely.  So, in my mind, the 
longer the wheelbase the better; It doesnt matter whether the trailer is short
or long. The longer wheelbase also gave a way smoother ride :>)    

   Braking systems are the part of boat trailer towing that personally concern 
me the most. On a commercial trailer there are trailer brakes which are coupled
to the main brake distribution system of the tractor.  Brakes come on
together, timing and brake pressure controlled by the system.  However, for
those special situations (esp. slippery) the operator has a manual control 
for the trailer brakes which can be applied first, setting a kind of 'drag'
prior to the foot brakes being applied, and then modulated to control the 
tendancy of the trailer to push the cab from behind (jacknife) or snap it back
in line should wheel lock start it drifting sideways.  

   The closet thing I've seen on 'personal' trailers are electric brakes 
found on campers which allow pressure adjustment and some manual control of 
the trailers brakes during operation.  It's too bad that they seem to be 
incompatible with boat trailers 'cause they seem to offer (IMO) way better 
control than the surge brakes found on boat trailers.  As I see it, the 
dynamics of surge brakes are all wrong.

   They only engage by pushing against the back of the pulling 
component. Need more trailer brakes?? Press harder on your vehicle brakes
so the trailer can push harder on the back of the vehicle. The trailer brakes
are always responding after the pulling part and at its' own rate.  On a clean
dry road, with proper weight balance, you can get away with this, but add some
slick to the road and it's a crapshoot.  Toss in a panic stop, a curve in the 
road, add some light tounge weight, and you're likely as not to be looking at 
the side of your boat as it trys to pass you going backwards.      

   I guess the only thing worse are no brakes at all.  2000 lbs or so of 
load,  pushing on the rear of a 3000/4000 lb trying to come to an abupt
halt from 65 MPH is a disaster just waiting to happen.

   I have 300,000 + miles of driving commercial trailers and to be honest,
towing my 22 foot boat in traffic still gives me butterflies.  I have
a tandem axle trailer with working, adjusted surge brakes on all four wheels,
proper weight distribution and a 'full sized' tow vehicle.  What I dont have
is the controls that I would need to insure that I have a shot
at compensating for the unexpected.  What I also KNOW is that even with all
the tools, everything working and adjusted 'just right',  sometimes the 
mother just wont stop soon enough or in a straight line!!  That makes me real 
cautious, real defensive and very respective of the equipment and its
limitations.

   So, pick your combination carefully, make sure it's rated to the job,
adjusted properly and then drive it like your life depended on it.  Cutting
corners wont become obvious until it's too late and there aint no turning back.
   
   Sorry this is so long...I guess I got carried away.

						Tom