Conference vicki::boats

    
    
    I'm not going to agree with licensing. Thats a bureaucratic
    nightmare.
    
    However i'm going to agre on mandatory education... to the point
    that before you buy the boat, you gotta have, and show the certificate.
    
    Interesting, i read an article in the recent issue of power and
    motoryacht that pointed to the majority of accidents are in smaller
    boats. Wonder if this has anything to do with the lack of experience,
    i.e. lots of folks start out in smaller boats, hence the majority
    of beginners are there.
    
    
    Now for your experience Rick, i agree they were complete idiots....
    
    But they arn't the only ones around, i see a lot of them on the salt.
    
    JIm

    Of course, water-skiing at night is foolish, as well. (Even though I
    have done it myself...)
    
    q
    

	I had the questionable pleasure of witnessing some of that 
last evening from  "THE AIR".   It was quite amusing (sort of) to see 
how these  "near misses"  and  "close calls"  get set up.  There is 
the   "generally accepted"  pattern, commonly known as  "following the 
rules"  and the  "ain't gotta clue"  pattern - which can interfere 
quite badly with the first one, especially when combined with the  
"ain't gonna yield cos I ain't wrong"  attitude  )-:

	So, that little boat down there is going this way and the 
other little boat down there is going that way and they DO seem to be 
on a collision course.  But now this one has turned and it looks like 
that one is turning too, the first one seems to be running out of room 
- neither of them wants to stop, one has a skier the other has me in a 
parasail )-:

	Reg

    >>                 <<< Note 1104.2 by TROPPO::QUODLING >>>
    >>
    >>Of course, water-skiing at night is foolish, as well. (Even though I
    >>have done it myself...)
    >>
    >>q


    	Drum roll please!!!! .2 (q) wins the prize!

    	Yes, even though I didn't put a :-) in my note, my tongue was
    certainly placed firmly in my cheek as I wrote that note. Seemed like
    things could use a little injection of liveliness around here lately.

    	And while I don't necessarily agree with mandatory licensing for
    boat drivers I must agree with Jim that mandatory education would be
    a great idea.

    	Hey Reg, I thought you were staying off those contraptions.

    Rick

    I think there are several reasons for smaller boats (< 20 feet) boats
    causing most of the accidents:
    
    1. They generally go faster than larger boats.
    
    2. The owner has less money invested in them.  Thus, might care less.
    
    3. Smaller boats tend to be first boats.  (inexperienced owners)
    
    4. People willing to spend the money on larger boats might take boating
       more seriously than someone in a runabout out on an afternoon lark.
    
    Jeff

    	I think you could also add the fact that there are a -whole lot-
    more small boats on the water.  Anyone have any stats on percentage of
    boats by size?
    				B.C.

    It will come here in New Zealand very soon.
    
    This year there has been 14 drownings (against 2 last year) as a result
    of problems with tinnies (12-15 ft dinigies).
    
    Last weekend it was 2 more, a the result of a drunken fishing trip at
    about 11 pm. No life jackets, flares etc. This has been the case in
    nearly all the deaths. The reaction of Police and officials will be to
    license us for sure.
    
    The thing that worries me is that here the number of repeat drunken
    drivers is very high, almost 90% so I suspect that getting these idiots
    licensed will have little impact on them and lots on the 99% of sane
    users.
    
    Here small "tinnies" are become very inexpensive as are smaller
    10/15/20hp outboards. In NZ dollars you can get a new 15 and "tinnie"
    for about $4000. ie about $2000 USD. It roughly about 10% of the yearly
    wage of reasonable admin people. Second hand they are even cheaper and
    there are more and more about.
    
    There is probably no answer. I would support licensing if someone could
    prove it would be effective but just don't see how it can be enforced.
    Currently we have no registration, other than the national yacht
    groups. I can see that changing too.
    
    Looks like my hole in the water is about to get more expensive :)

    
    I agree that licensing by itself is meaningless.  Because you appear
    at the time to be competent, (in whatever licensing requires)
    it is only a "before the fact issue".
    
    After they get a license they will tend toward whatever way they
    were.
    
    Enforcement is the answer, maybe if they were slapped with some
    fines, and loss of their motor vehicle license, they might be
    more understanding.........
    
    JIm

    What about natural selection?

    I was out last night on Lake Potanipo (70 acres, pretty shallow in
    spots if you don't know the lake) to watch the sunset.  It was pretty
    peaceful.  A couple of people in a canoe and two bass boats working the
    shore.  Only problem was the crazy fool towing the waterskier well after
    the sun had gone down.  When I realized they weren't going to quit just
    because of darkness, I decided to head for shore.  They already had one
    boating fatality a few years ago when the guy "fell" out of his boat
    and it went clear across the lake and into a sailboat.  I didn't want
    to be around when the canoe got sliced in two.  I can understand why
    the locals want to close down the free, public launch ramp cause these
    folks finally pulled up to the ramp and trailered away.  They'll
    probably be back next weekend.
    Wayne

    The only reason I'm for licensing is that I'm getting really tired of
    avoiding <20' boats driven by children (<12 yrs. old)!  It's really
    nervewracking to drive by a swerving vessel and see a kid who can
    barely see over the steering wheel while mom and dad are sunning
    themselves on the open bow!  If there was a licensing regulation,
    people might be more conscientious about putting a tot behind the
    wheel! Do we really have to wonder why a large percentage of boating
    accidents are with small vessels?!
    
    Cranky after 8 hours of glorious boating on Lake Washington and now
    it's Monday,
    
    Deb

    Its not so crazy to put a kid behind the helm IF (I repeat IF) the
    adult responsible for the boat is RIGHT THERE beside the kid watching
    as if the adult were operating and ready to grab the wheel and or
    throttle on a instants notice.
    
    If the adult moves away or lets their attention wander thats quite
    another matter.
    
    I guess the catch is, IS the adult right there paying attention?  In
    one of the prior examples clearly he/she was not.
    
    Jeff

    Would you let a child drive a car even if you were right there?  

    From my limited boating experience some states have rules about what
    age you have to be before taking the wheel.  Whether people obey these
    rules is another story.
    
    Wayne

    Hmmmm...
    
    well .. it's legal to let them fly an airplane if you're "right there"!
    
    (I know, I know, dual controls and all that ... ;-) ... )
    

>    The only reason I'm for licensing is that I'm getting really tired of
>    avoiding <20' boats driven by children (<12 yrs. old)!  It's really
>    nervewracking to drive by a swerving vessel and see a kid who can
>    barely see over the steering wheel while mom and dad are sunning
>    themselves on the open bow!  If there was a licensing regulation,
>    people might be more conscientious about putting a tot behind the
>    wheel! Do we really have to wonder why a large percentage of boating
>    accidents are with small vessels?!
    
    
    I heard a story about a boat on the lake by my house. The parents let
    their son drive their Natique for a while. They were running at a
    fairly good clip. The son went to open up the throttle, and put it full
    into reverse by accident. Both of them were thrown forward, and the
    boat buried it self. The father caught the kid just before we was
    thrown over the windshield. Their werent hurt very bad, luckly. 
    
    It was basically inexperience, as it could just as eaisly happend to
    the father. Experience is the key, not as much as age is. I would let a
    12 year old drive a car or boat if they had the experience. However,
    they usually dont...
    

    
    A rather funny story.
    
    About 10 yrs ago, the folks in the slip next to me, had a 1958
    Pacemaker. They were restoring it. Actually they had done a nice
    job.
    
    The end of the season came, and they had made arrangements to 
    store elsewhere, and left to meet the truck. I should mention
    it was a 36' boat. 
    
    
     
    They left and took along a fellow boater to help them.
    
    He returned to the marina several hours later with a horror story.
    
    Seems that the clutches work in reverse. to go backward your put them
    in forward and vise versa. Well as the story goes, they had 
    problems getting it to line up on the trailer and had to back down
    for another try. This time it required a little more throttle,
    however the owner somehow got confused in the process and put both
    clutches in forward with more throttle than he thought, and instead of
    going forward, he went backward and buring the transom, and
    subsequently the props and shafts and struts and etc.
    
    to say the least the damage was pretty extensive.
    
    
    why the clutches were reversed is still a mystery.
    
    However he was no spring chicken, and was in the marine repair
    business mostly repairing fiberglass boat hulls.
    
    JIm
    
    

    
    
    	I let my son drive my boat (he's 9yrs old). Usually I sit on the
    back of the seat and he sits between my legs. The boat is at idle or
    maybe a little bit more (5mph), the rules are that he doesn't touch the
    throtle and keeps is eyes on the road. He has never done anything
    that would have been dangerous to anyone.
    
    	Someone said " kids need experience "..... Well how do they get
    experience if they never drive????????
    
    	I do agree that kids should not drive by themselves unless they
    are experienced, cautious, and at least 16 yrs old (state law), as
    boats are just as dangerous as cars.
    
    	Frenchy
    
    

    
    In the past i have let my boys take the wheel. However there were
    strict conditions.
    
    Don't touch the throttle, eyes on the water i was directly behind
    them at all times.
    
    I agree with this kind of supervision, they need the experience,
    if supervised properly, i don't see a problem.
    
    How else are they to get it.
    
    One other, they drove a slow speeds, until they were older.
    
    JIm

    I also agree with the last two notes that kids need experience in order
    to learn to drive (boat or car).  But how many people do you know that 
    let their kids drive their cars before they're of legal age (15 1/2 in
    most states)?  
    
    I agree it's different in boats than in cars due to heavier traffic,
    faster speed, etc., however, I fear that too many adult boat drivers
    use the excuse of "need to gain experience" in order to enjoy
    themselves otherwise while the kids drive the boat.  
    
    I have no doubt that participants in this notesfile are amongst the
    most conscientious of boaters, and that none of their children would be
    caught driving a 20' powerboat unattended, however, all of us are not
    the norm, I fear.  There are far *more* boaters who would *gladly*
    relinquish the wheel to an eager youngster.
    
    And I say, let them get experience in a car *first* by going through
    driver's education and being under strict supervision, understanding
    roles and responsibilities of the road, being an alert driver, etc. 
    And then they are ready to learn the rules of boating.  Perhaps they've
    had a bit experience already with mom and dad letting them sit on their
    lap during boating so they're more prepared, and all the better!  
    
    The only reason I agree with licensing boaters is so that there would
    be
    some formal training required.  I believe we'd see a drastic decrease
    in boating fatalities.  Kids could start driving a boat at the same
    time they start learning to drive a car - by the time they were 18 yrs.
    old, they'd be able to do both with safety and confidence!
    
    I'm open to opinions (but you can't beat me up because I'm looking at
    the lake and it's glass and I'm already hoping to leave early, so don't
    tempt me :-))
    
    Deb  

    My biggest fear are drunk drivers on the water.  Licensing will not do
    anything to prevent that, as is the case of driving a car...
    
    Mark

    Actually, I think it would *if* they impose the same laws on the water
    as they do on the road, ie, no open containers of liquor.  Why isn't that
    the case on the water?  
    
    Let's assume they impose the same laws, you continue to drink on the
    boat and you get caught.  They take away your boating license and if
    you're caught without a license the same penalties occur as if you were
    on the road.  It seems logical to me (but then I'm in Sales) that there
    would be less drinking and boating just as there is less on the road
    (significant decrease in drinking-related fatalities every year).
    
    Deb 

    What are the laws regarding drinking and boating?  Does it vary by
    state, by town, by body of water?
    
    Who enforces it?  Local police?  Environmental police?
    
    Mark

    
      In Mass and NH the laws regarding drinking and boating are the same
    as for drinking and driving a car. I know that in NH at least, you can
    lose your *car* drivers license for drinking and driving a boat - just
    as if you were driving a car (And I think this is right)
    
      Unfortunately, I don't think *any* law works unless the vast majority
    of people agree with it. Just look at how many years drinking and
    driving was illeagal before people really started to pay attention to
    it. The same goes for drug laws, speed laws, gun laws, etc. All the
    laws and regulations won't do anything unless there is *social* support
    for them.
    
      Mark - Typically, any police officer (In NH and Mass at least) can
    enforce boating laws. That would be State, local, environmental, fish
    and game.
    
    				Kenny			

    
>    	Someone said " kids need experience "..... Well how do they get
>    experience if they never drive????????
    
    That was me I believe. What I meant to say, is that they need to be
    experienced before being let loose while mom and dad sit in the back.
    Having someone provide CLOSE supervision while they get the experience
    is the way to go. As they get better, you can back off a little at a
    time, until they have the experience to do it on their own (however,
    keeping maturity and responsibility in mind, which keeps the age factor
    to something reasonable (ie, late teens, etc).
    
>    The only reason I agree with licensing boaters is so that there would
>    be
>    some formal training required.  I believe we'd see a drastic decrease
>    in boating fatalities.  Kids could start driving a boat at the same
>    time they start learning to drive a car - by the time they were 18 yrs.
>    old, they'd be able to do both with safety and confidence!
    
    This is where I disagree. Licensing wont solve the problem. You need a
    drivers license to drive a car. 45% of all highway fatalities are
    caused by drunk drivers. Licensing hasnt reduced this problem, nor
    would it. What will reduce it is enforcement. Its the fear of getting
    caught, and common sense of how dangerous it is, that keeps the
    majority of us from driving drunk. Education and enforcement will go a
    lot further that another license.
    
    Licensing will cost the state a ton of money, and take away funds that
    could be used for education and enforcement. If nothing is enforced,
    any laws are meaningless. If education isnt available, people wont know
    what the rules are, and thereby cant abide by them.
    
    I would suggest that a normal drivers license should be considered a
    license to drive a boat as well. Any enforcement actions would involve
    the right to operate a boat as well as a car. If you are caught drink
    boating or driving, you can loose your auto/boat license. Too many, you
    loose your boat registration as well. The owner of the boat should also
    be responsible for the operation of it accordingly to the rules (ie. he
    could also loose his registration for letting someone repeatly driving
    it drunk. That would help make sure that the owner doesnt let
    irresponsible people operate it since it would effect his registration.
    
    When you go to register a boat, you take a quick exam to make sure you
    understand the rules and regulations. You cant register your boat until
    you take this. The money which is saved by not having another agency
    for boating licensing can be used for additional enforcement and
    education.
    
    I also believe that we should do something similar with PWC's. Why ban
    them from the water. Why not just fix the problems. Next we will be
    banning Skiing from lakes cause it interferes with sailing. Or because
    some of them are loud. Or because we just dont like them on our lakes!
    
    	If its noise, lets get the manufacturers to quiet them down. Or
    	have aftermarket systems to do that.
    
    	If its becase they operate it without regard to the rules and
        safety, then lets educate them, and enforce any violations. If they
        violate them enough, they loose their registration, and they are off
        the water in any craft. If they operate a PWC in violation of the
        rules, they would probably do the same in a boat, or sail boat as
        well, so lets just get them off period.
    
        Lets give any law enforcement officer the ability to issue
        violations against car or boat. Many states already do this. If
        there are violations, an boater or land owner can just call their
        local police to enforce the regs. I belive that Mass already does
        this, and many local police are taught some of the basic boating
        laws.
    
    	If its because they are seen as dangerous, well, then let just ban
        then when we ban everything else dangerous (motorcyles, guns, knifes,
        baseball bats, bunjee jumping, skydiving, etc.)
    
    If we fix the problem areas, then responsible operators of PWCs can
    enjoy the lake in harmony with everyone else. The boaters would be
    happy cause they operate in an expected fashion with everyone else. The
    land owners are happy since the noise isnt any worse then the boat they
    have in their own dock. Swimmers would be happy since they will stay
    at a safe distance, etc.
    
    Then everyone can enjoy their favorite water sport, and we wont have to 
    ban scuba diving since its just too hard to see and avoid a bobbing
    head in the water, and someone might run over them.
    
    Opps....someone just kicked the soapbox from under me... ;-)
    

    	Let's also not lose sight of the fact that the kids need someone to
    set a good example for them!  If "Dad" is always ( insert favorite bad
    driving habit here) the kids will learn to drive the same way.
    	My kids (son 8, daughter 11) "drive" my 15' Whaler...  In No Wake
    zones, with me -right- beside them!
    	I try to both set a good example with my operation of the boat and
    point out violations made by other people.
    
    						B.C.

    re. 1104.26
    
    I completely agree with your comments on licensing for both boat and
    car (meaning it applies for both).  Perfect, I think that's great!  It
    certainly eliminates the need for additional state licensing, etc. 
    Any suggestions on how we could implement this, you know, start a
    boating revolution or something??
    
    Deb

    If licensing is mandated, I would prefer to see it as an endorsement on
    your car license, just as my motorcycle endorsement is.  It would
    require at least a written test to get.  Following the motorcycle
    analogy, I don't know if a driving test would be practical/doable.
    
    At least this would use the existing licensing infrastructure, reducing
    the cost to administer.
    
    CArl

    re .26
    >      In Mass and NH the laws regarding drinking and boating are the
    > 	   same  as for drinking and driving a car. 
    
    I thought that the open container law was passed for cars but not boats
    in N.H. I know that BWI and DWI are essentially equivalent in N.H. 
    
    Can anyone confirm that simply having an open container in a boat
    is illegal in N.H. And if so, does the boat have to be underway, or
    is having a drink in your boat back in the marina slip at the end of
    the day also illegal?
    
    What is illegal? motoring, sailing, drifting or being at anchor
    with an open container?
    
    Bill
    

    
      I have no idea about open containers. All I know is that *driving* a
    *motorboat* WUI is prohibited just like a car.
    
    				Kenny

    re: 14  Would you let a kid drive a car even though you were right
    there?
    
    Come on now, you are comparing apples to oranges. Of course I wouldn't 
    let a kid drive a car even though I was right there.  I also wouldn't
    let a kid drive my boat in a crowded anchorage.  But out in open water
    with minimal boat traffic I would let a kid drive my 17 foot outboard
    if I was right there beside him.  The margin for error in open water is
    considerable greater in a boat than in an automobile.
    
    Why do you think the licensing requirements are so much different than
    automobiles?  Its legal to let a kid operate a boat as long as there is
    a responsible adult attending him. I wonder WHY its legal?  Maybe
    because the conditions are different from autos?
    
    Yes, yes I know about all the knuckelheads operating boats ramming one
    another.
    
    I am talking about a sober 'capt' in immediate attendance to the wheel
    letting the kid operate in open water at a 'reasonable' speed.
    
    In otherwords exercising 'common sense'.
    
    Jeff

    Whew, you guys are brave letting the kids drive..
    I won't even let my girlfriend drive :)
    But if I could only teach the lab! 

    I let my six year old son take the wheel (he kneels on the seat to
    see over the dash) at 18-20 knots in open water. I stay right next
    to him but he is able to steer a straight line pretty well
    when there is a target on the horizan. Next summer he should
    be able to steer by compass. Could he actually run the boat? Of
    course not! But he is learning to watch for floating objects
    (he can steer around lobster pots when he see's them...) and
    this is what makes boating fun, sharing it with others.
    
    Use common sense, stay safe and have some fun. 
    
    Bruce

    -.2 ....... exercising 'common sense'.
    
    Boy if that isn't the understatement of the year! It seems as though
    people in general have lost or a lack of or don't know how to use
    "Common Sense". Just reading the stories in here & having a couple of
    experiences of my own is enough to send shivers up my spine. 
    
    I think it would be good to have an add on to your drivers license to
    show that your a license boat operator. That you passed a written exam
    & to possibly have a driving exam to make sure you understand the ways
    of the water (bouy ID, how to navigate, NO WAKE & what NO WAKE looks
    like, etc.). Have stiff fines for violations, especially repeat
    offenders & use those fines collected to defer the cost of enforcment.
    Age requirements & learner's permit for kids just like with autos.
    
    My experiences include fishing with a freind in a canoe on a small lake
    when a couple of a**holes came REAL close in their power boats & they
    kept circling  around us trying to swamp us. Well I'll tell you we both
    many CHOICE words for them & if looks could kill, They were that close
    they could see the fire in our eyes they knew they had better leave.
    Fortunately nothing happened but that's a horrifing feeling to be
    totally helpless in the middle of a lake, luckily we're both good
    swimmers but you never know what can happen.
    
    The other is being underwater. As a scuba diver it can be very nerve
    racking hearing propellers zooming by & you can tell they're close
    just by the sound. Do you think people know what a red flag with a
    white stripe going across it from corner to corner means? Most
    probabbly don't or if they do they must figure "well they're under the
    water pretty deep, how can my propeller hit them!" Hey BOZO, they do
    come up to the surface on occasions & always near their flag. I've been
    there, just below the surface & have actually seen the bubbles of a
    propeller going by (within 50 feet +/-) & I've seen skiis from a
    water skier. Too close for comfort. People think the flag is there for
    them to practice slalom racing or something (how close can I get
    without hitting it?).
    
    But that's the problem, it only takes a split second for something to
    happen and there is noway to reverse it. That's why they call it an
    ACCIDENT. I'm sorry I don't think a kid has the ability to see
    everything that's going on all around him like an adult does(or
    should). Kids seem to have tunnel vision, their mind just doesn't seem
    to be able to comprehend everything the eyes look at or the eyes just
    can't see everything around them, as in peripheral vision or something.
    It's great to want them to learn & practice & i'm all for that but
    there's a time & a place for it. It should be done where there is
    minimal distractions, at slow speeds & the adult must be right there as
    if s/he is driving the boat themselves (that means watching
    everything). Use "COMMON SENSE".
    
    There goes that damn soapbox again. Sorry :-)
    Alan
    
    
    

I don't believe that licenseing is the answer, one drive down rte 128 or 93 will
show you why.  It will just be another tax/fee.  Education is.  Maybe if the
insurance companies publicized the fact that discounts are given for safety
courses.

I have also seen many crazies on the ocean.  This year a 30' cruiser was heading
right for me on a half plane (didn't even know I was there), another boat was
headingfor me in the open ocean (driver sitting down again couldn't see), a
35' sailboat under full sail trolling by badgers rau his line across my boat (I
cut the line before the hooks came in).  Every one of these incidents was 
either stupidity of no common sense.

I don't know what the answer is, but education will help and licensing is just
another tax.

Gordon

    But Gordon,

    	I think we are really talking about different means to the same
    end. If boater safety education is made mandatory for anyone that
    pilots a craft there must be some way to enforce it. The only way
    I can see to enforce such a law is for the prospective "captain" to
    show some proof of their education. That proof, short of a "quick
    Quiz" on the water by the water cops, would certainly be in the form
    of some card or document not much different than an automobile
    drivers license.

    	I also must take issue with the analogy of crazies in cars to
    crazies in boats. While route 128 at rush hour is certainly no joy,
    if no formal driver education was required to operate a car, just
    picture how bad things would be!

    	As for children operating boats.... I really have mixed emotions
    on this one. My 11 year old son performs an outstanding job driving
    the Nautique. He is never "left alone" at the wheel, even though NH
    law states; "With an adult *IN* the boat". He understands the rules
    of the water, how to approach other boats and what to do if he is
    unsure of what to do! Driving is his number one enjoyment on the
    boat and I'd prefer not to see this privilege taken away from him.
    I believe the current law is that children can operate boats < 25 hp
    regardless of age, > 25 hp is ?15? years old, an any boat with
    adult supervision. I'm sure abuses would take place if these allowances
    were made in a mandatory education or licensing program, just as
    they are today. But, I think making these opportunities available to
    kids is very important and that enforcement of the rules (ie: age/HP)
    is the answer. Don't take away the kids enjoyment because of a few
    irresponsible adults, likewise don't take away my enjoyment because
    of those same adults.

    You may step down now, Mr. Suter.

    Thank you,

    Rick

    
    You can't license common sense.   If you read the stats, you'll find
    
    a lot of the problems come from repeat offenders. Take a look at 
    
    the dwi stats, as it relates to fatalities.   We have a licensing
    
    process for auto's, and there is a good reason, there is a lot
    
    more traffic, and pedestrians.
    
    
    We enforce the laws with regard to this process, but we still see
    
    folks driving dwi, without a license, without registration,
    
    without insurance and the list goes on.
    
    Enforcement is the key, without it who cares.
    
    I understand that most folks in this file, operate in freshwater,
    
    in smaller boats, therefore feel more subject to congestion,
    
    traffic, and of course the crazies.....
    
    
    How about we MANDATE licensing for lakes and ponds only,,,,,,,,
    
    JIm

    Let's take anyone who breaks the rules out back & shoot 'em...
    
    Carl

    
    And thats how we will eliminate the need for licensing,
    
    we get rid of the crazies and only we will be left.
    
    (:))
    
    
    JIm

    You know, we've spent alot of time on this subject (I *really* should
    be selling something right now), maybe we should be talking to a
    legislator of some sort about licensing, or a license adder.  
    
    Don't laugh, I'm serious.  If we feel that strongly about getting the
    nut-zoids off our lakes (good suggestion, Jim) then maybe we should
    each "write our Congressman."
    
    What do you guys think, futile?
    
    Deb 

    	The money to administrate it would be -much- better spent on
    enforcement of the present laws.  I'd rather see more officers on the
    water than more clerks in govt. offices.
    						B.C.
    

    re .35  common sense etc.
    
    Nobody has suggested that the kid REPLACE the adult controlling the
    boat.  When I let my six year old son take the helm I RIGHT beside him.
    Its as if I am operating the boat as far as my attention is concerned.
    If anything happened to require a helm or throttle correction I am 
    delayed only milliseconds to get my hands on the wheel.  Yes there is a 
    SLIGHT delay but when you consider my INCREASED attention I bet the
    delay is more than compensated for by increased attentativeness.  
    
    Also he 'operates' the boat under open water conditions with no other
    boats within hundreds of yards.
    
    If I knew YOU were operating YOUR boat with a kid at the helm I
    wouldn't be worried if you did it in the same manner as I do.
    
    For those who let the kid take the helm and then go below or turn their
    attention away from the helm then I WOULD worry.  That method is not
    appropriate.
    
    Yes, I know everbody isn't as careful as I am.  I can't control THEM,
    only my own craft.
    
    Jeff
    

    You may find many excuses...
    Isn't it simply fear of failing in an exam ?
    
    Regards,
    Jean

    RE: .45
    
    	Speaking for myself, it is fear...  The fear of needlessly growing
    the government bigger and enacting yet more laws instead of simply
    enforcing the present ones.
    	I also think you're talking down to anyone who doesn't agree that
    licensing is the answer.
    
    					B.C.

    
>    	Speaking for myself, it is fear...  The fear of needlessly growing
>    the government bigger and enacting yet more laws instead of simply
>    enforcing the present ones.
>    	I also think you're talking down to anyone who doesn't agree that
>    licensing is the answer.
    
    
    How would we enforce the present laws? If there is no license to yank,
    how would we enforce them. We could divy up fines, but many will keep
    on violating the laws and just pay the fines when caught. We could yank
    their registeration, but they would just register it in their wifes
    name, their sons, names, an uncle, etc. If we had an adder to the
    present drivers license, they can't use someone elses license to operate
    a boat if it gets yanked. If they are caught operating after their
    license has been revoked, they can be fined substantial fees, as well
    as have the boat towed, impounded, and there is a possibility of them
    being arrested. Just like with autos. I think this would have more
    impact then just trying to enforce what we currently have. There is
    really nothing stopping them from doing what they want if they can
    afford the fines when caught.
    
    I am also against growing the goverment. However, using all the
    existing administration systems, this can be done with a very low
    impact to the boaters, and low overall costs. The problem will be to
    keep the goverment from assessing 'revenue' fees instead of fees to
    just cover the actual costs.
    

    
    
    	Ahhhh... Must be time to go read note 336.15!

    
    
    The least of all the problems is getting it YANKED>>>>>
    
    There;s no one there TO DO IT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    
    
    SOME OF YOU FOLKS STILL AIN'T GETTIN IT///////////////
    
    
    JIm    

    
>    re .48
>    
>    I don't buy the not having anything to yank. Pick up the local
>    newspaper and you will find that a good percentage of the arrest 
>    are for DWI and operating after a suspension. You are not going to 
>    stop them and I don't need the government in my wallet for one
>    more $50 every 4 years just to have another feel good law on 
>    the books that doesn't do *&^%. 
    
    Yes, it does happen. And no, its not a good percentage of the DWI's.
    Maybe its a good percentage of those reported, but not all DWI's are
    reported. I was in law enforcement for a number of years, made hundreds
    of DWI arrests, and only a small percentage of them included citations
    or arrests for driving under suspension, etc. You cant stop everyone,
    but it does deter the majority. The majority of DWI arrests that I've
    made, made a difference. They were actually off the road, and didnt
    drive. They learned a lesson (it was very expensive, it limited their
    freedom, it was embarrassing). A DWI conviction can cost upwards of
    $3,000 in fines, legal fees, insurance surcharges, impound fees, etc.
    
    Some people will use their common sense, and determine that it is not
    wise to drink and drive. They wouldnt do it even if there was no law.
    There are those that are more afraid of getting arrested, and loosing
    their license, and havent thought of the common sense safety aspects.
    For them, its the law and its effect that deter them. Then there are
    those that have no common sense, and think laws are for everyone else.
    They are the reason that we need to education, laws, and enforcement.
    Having something to loose is a deterent. It hits home. It makes people
    think a little. It does work.
    
    How would we enforce the current laws? Arrest everyone for violations,
    or assess fines. If they can afford the fines, there is no real
    deterent to stop them. We really cant arrest people, well except maybe
    for DWI, but what about excessive speed in wake zones? How would be
    keep track of repeat offenders, and if we did, what would be do about
    it? There is no current way to keep them off the water if they are
    consistently irresponsible. They pay a fine, and head out to do it
    again.
    
     An adder to your drivers license would allow all the tracking and
    database systems to work without additional costs. ANY law enforcement
    officer (land or water) would be able to check on license status, past
    violations, etc, as they do today on motor vehicles. This allows better
    enforcement. It allows a program for education by the written test you
    would need to take. It allows enforcement since you can track
    violations, repeat offenders, and license status. It allows you to get
    someone off the water who is irresponsible. It allows you the ability
    to deny registration to repeat offenders. It has very low impact to
    responsible boaters (ie, take a written test, automatic renewal with
    your drivers license, thats it).
    
    I dont want more laws, licenses, fees, etc. However, I see a very bad
    trend which I hate even more. Banning boats, jet skis, etc, from public
    waters based on the actions of the uninformed, uneducated, or unwilling
    violators. When will be start banning water skiing because things are
    getting out of control by crazies! Then maybe high power speed boats
    becase they are fast and noisy! The list goes on...
    
    Wouldnt it be nice is responsible boaters could all share the waters in
    whatever type craft they enjoy (jet skis, water skis, speed boats, bath
    tubs :-), instead of being banned by those who dont know the rules, or
    intentionaly ignore them.
    
    
>    The least of all the problems is getting it YANKED>>>>>
>    There;s no one there TO DO IT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>    SOME OF YOU FOLKS STILL AIN'T GETTIN IT///////////////
    
    I'm getting it, but I dont want to spend the big bucks on the solution
    without trying lower cost alternatives first.
    
    You have to start somewhere. Its cheap to institute a license, will
    have low impact on boaters, and gets people educated. It gets them to
    think, to understand the rules, etc. It gives local law enforcement
    personnel the ability to cite, etc. Lets get people educated and aware,
    and see if it works before spending mega bucks on more personnel,
    boats, and equipment to man all waterways. We may find that once
    educated, many people might clean up their act somewhat. Not everyone
    will, but if say 50% did, thats 50% less crazies on the water. There
    are so many people who just go buy a boat like they buy a RV, and never
    take the time to learn how to operate it properly. If everyone is
    educated, we may just see a difference. Many of those crazies are just
    ignorant of the rules, and once educated, probably wont be crazy any
    more. Then there are those......
    
    
    

    
    I'll agree with education, at this point it is basically free,
    
    Power Squardron and Auxillary.
    
    I have no problems with testing.
    
    But you can license, test, have tests on the water, in your sink,
    
    in your bathtub, in your pool, in your toilet, septic tank, or
    
    town/city sewer line, (if you have it) in a cup, bowl, saucer...
    
    and so on (:)))))
    
    BUT IF THERE IS NO ENFORCEMENT, THERE AIN'T RESTRICTIONS,
    
    THERE'S NO PENALTY...   AND DON'T TELL ME THEY CAN'T SITE,
    
    YOU GET BOARDED BY THE COAST GUARD, AND YOU'LL SOON FIND OUT...
    
    (soap box off)
    
    how about the enviornmental police, they can site......
    
    
    So lets get together on enforcement, there's no excuse,
    
    you screw up and you pay.......
    
    JIm

    
    re .52
    
    	Here, Here! If I could stand up and cheer on a terminal, I would!
    
    
    >boats, and equipment to man all waterways. We may find that once
    >educated, many people might clean up their act somewhat. Not everyone
    >will, but if say 50% did, thats 50% less crazies on the water. There
    >are so many people who just go buy a boat like they buy a RV, and never
    >take the time to learn how to operate it properly. If everyone is
    >educated, we may just see a difference. Many of those crazies are just
    >ignorant of the rules, and once educated, probably wont be crazy any
    >more. Then there are those......
    
    	My point exactly! If all water craft operators were educated I
    think the results would be drastically positive. The problem is that
    there must be some method of tracking this mandatory education. This
    is where some sort of licensing comes in. I am truly apposed to yet
    another fee, but if an annual $12.50 ($50 for 4 years) is all it takes
    to educate the boating public and make my day safer and more enjoyable
    on the water, it seems like a bargain!
    
    Rick

    
      How about, you need to show a certificate of having completed *some*
    education course in order to be able to buy a boat?
    
    				Kenny

    
>    I'll agree with education, at this point it is basically free,
>    Power Squardron and Auxillary.
>    I have no problems with testing.
>    But you can license, test, have tests on the water, in your sink,
>    in your bathtub, in your pool, in your toilet, septic tank, or
>    town/city sewer line, (if you have it) in a cup, bowl, saucer...
>    and so on (:)))))
 
    Thats great, and I know about them. The problem is to get people there.
    How many jet skiiers have attended. How many small boat owners have
    attended. How many of the crazies do you belive have attended formal
    training. To me, it seems that mostly dedicated boaters are the ones 
    attending, and they are the responsible ones which we dont need to be
    concerned with. We need to educate those that dont know they are doing
    wrong, and those that 'know it all' and cant be bothered with going to
    a class.
    
    (PS I'm not against jet skiiers. In fact I would like to buy one for
    our lake, but FLAGRANT REPEAT VIOLATORS have cause them to be banned on
    our lake. PO'd. Yes!).
    
    However, I think a test would be eaiser and more convient for the
    boaters, as they can study at their own pace and time, and take the
    test when its convient. Power Squardron and Auxillary could be exempt
    upon showing a certification possibly. That makes it even eaiser.
    
>    BUT IF THERE IS NO ENFORCEMENT, THERE AIN'T RESTRICTIONS,
>    THERE'S NO PENALTY...   AND DON'T TELL ME THEY CAN'T SITE,
>    YOU GET BOARDED BY THE COAST GUARD, AND YOU'LL SOON FIND OUT...
>    how about the enviornmental police, they can site......
>    So lets get together on enforcement, there's no excuse,
>    you screw up and you pay.......
    
    When is the last time you saw the Coat Guard, or any other enforcement
    personnel on any lake in Mass or NH with any regularity. How much would
    it cost to put one there every weekend, provide the boat, slip, and
    equipment, his retirement pay and benefits, etc. What about the week
    days and nights. Wouldnt we need him there also. This is starting to
    sound very expensive!
    
    I AM with you on enforcement. Issuing licenses is in effect a form of
    enforcement. Most boaters wouldnt want to loose it, and would protect
    it. Those that dont care would take more strigent enforcement. Having a
    license will enble that enforcement. When they do get cited, its noted
    in their record. If they do it again, and again, its revoked, If they
    are caught once its revoked, they get arrested and usualy spend the
    weekend in jail awaiting arraingment, then get heavy fines. If they dont
    pay the fines, they spend more time in jail, and on it goes, getting
    stiffer and stiffer as they continue.
    
    How many people do you know
    	that drive a car without a valid or revoked license? 
    	that drive a car without any training?
        that drive a car while drinking?
        that dont drive a car barefoot because it against the law?
        that would drive a car bafefoot if it was legal?
    
    	that drive a boat without any training?
        that drive a boat while drinking?
    	that would drive a boat without a license if one was required?
        that would drive a boat while drinking if it was illegal?
    
    The fear of getting caught is often times more of a deterent than
    actually getting caught. Knowing its illegal (education), knowing that
    you might get caught and loose something you value (license), is
    sometimes all you need for all but the hard cases. Tracking the hard
    cases (licensing and violations) will then start to lead to harder
    enforcement (citations, loss of license, arrest for operating under
    suspension/fees/fines/loss of freedom).
    
    Lets say it costs us $15 per person, one time fee, to enact licensing,
    and it educates 100% of the boaters, and cleans up the acts of 30% of
    the boaters, and helps track repeat violations, gives local EXISTING 
    police authority to enforce all boating laws. Would it be worth it?
    

    How would having the licensing fee depend of the size of the boat be a
    solution to anything except generating more revenue for the government?
    A 20 foot boat $ 200.00 lic. fee, with a 16 foot boat with a $ 20.00
    fee?  What is it, a logrithmic scale?  Does it cost more to lic. the
    driver of a Rolls vs. a Chevy?  NO, the registration fee could depend
    on the size of the boat... not the lic. fee for the operator.
    
    Incidentally I have a 16 foot boat, not a 20 footer.  I would go along
    with licensing boat operators if the fee was reasonable.  Also, I think
    that once licensed the license should be good for LIFE with no further
    fee required.  Perhaps an eye test every 5 years or so with a nominal
    fee but no further testing required.  After all, it you passed the test
    once you theoretically KNOW the rules, right?
    
    Also, the licensing should include a provision for kids to operate IF
    the HP requirements were met  (age/HP), and there was a licensed
    operator 'within arms reach' of the kid while he/she was operating.
    i.e. the kid wouldn't have to have a license to operate the boat under
    the above provisions.  There also could be licensing based on HP.
    i.e. under 10 Hp no license required, period.  That would eliminate the
    need to license the operator of someone running a trolling motor on
    a canoe which would be ridiculous.... that is, to require licensing
    for that.
    
    Or, there could be a boat size requirement... say any vessel 20 feet or
    over would require a licensed operator.  That would let the kids on
    their low HP boats continue to operate.
    
    "What are you NUTS! wanting to let kids operate boats!"
    
    Yes, I do.  One way to handle that is to make the kid responsible to
    a licensed operator.  That way if the kid messes up the license holder
    is responsible and could lose HIS license.  That would tend to make the
    license holder keeping the kid operating reasonably.
    
    Jeff

I don't believe that licensing is the answer.

Licensing, like a padlock, is for honest people. A padlock will keep you
or me out of something. A license is a valued "permission" (from the Latin
root of the word) to do a certain thing. 

Bad guys will pick, cut, or break a padlock. Bad guys will
drive/sell/wire/plumb/operate radios... whatever... license or not.

Training will impact some people (those who participate).

Cost of government or not, enforcement and punishment is what's needed.

<soapbox on>
This country would be a better place if negative reinforcment (read
that punishment) for proscribed behavior was swift and harsh.
<soapbox off> 

...that's a fundamental psychological principle, by the way. You modify
behavior by positive reinforcement for desirable behavior and negative
reinforcement for undesirable behavior.

Positive reinforcement in this case: you are allowed to continue to use
your boat.

Negative reinforcement in this case: you lose your boat, some of your
freedom, some of your money.

Seems so simple, really.

Art

    RE: .59
    
    			Thankyou!!!!
    
    					B.C.

    
    licencing works just fine here.
    
    
    if a powered boat is capable of 10 knots you have to be licenced to
    
    drive it.
    
    any power boat capable of ten knots must be registered
    
    you have to sit a written test which is not hard but proves youve read 
    
    the book.
    
    The licence can be revoked or fines are given for infringements
    
    driving unlicenced = big fine approx $2000 and can also be jailable
    
    the owner of the boat can also be fined for allowing an unlicenced 
    
    person to drive.
    
    This stops people who have no idea of the rules jumping in a boat 
    
    and endangering others.
    
    there are spot checks on certain waterways if all safety gear 
    
    and licences are produced they will give you a sticker to attach
    
    to the boat. 
    
    basicaly this just shows the authorities youve passed a spot check
    
    and will PROBABLY have all safety gear aboard.
    
    
    the other reg
    

    
    Thanks Art..............
    
    
    Thats the meat of it.....
    
    JIm

    re .59  Art said it well I think.  Let me expand a bit on what I see in
    his remarks:
    
    From what I read CERTAINTY of punishment is more important that the
    harshness because without the certainty people tend to think they won't
    catch ME, so in that context the harshess is a moot point.
    
    Harshess helps to a point but not without an element of certainty too.
    
    I think the biggest problem in our law enforcement system is the lack
    of greater certainty.
    
    Easier said than done.
    
    Jeff

    re .56
    >     Hey you don't have to take a course to get your drivers license.
    
    Not exactly true. Here in N.H. you cannot drive till you are 18 unless
    you take a driver ed course. Therefore 90something percent of all new
    drivers do take a course from a state approved instructor / school.
    
    Bill
    

    RE: .68
    
    	I still don't see how you can think that licenses will make people 
    obey the laws if there are still no enforcement personnel to do it.
    
    	You -have- to pay for the enforcement anyway, so why not just try
    (novel concept following) enforcing the present laws!!!
    
    					B.C.

    
    
    re .62
    
    all i can tell you is that over here people tend to observe 
    the laws of the water as most have at least the basic education 
    needed to get their licence.
    
    eg. stay right and observe right of way etc
    
    tks the other reg
    
    
    

    
    
    	Gee, I wrote note number 698! Unfortunately, I think it
    supports the theory of licensing. I was clearly fracturing the
    law, and while it's a law that I'm certainly not fond of and
    would like to see changed until USCG approved (type III) barefoot
    suits are available, the fact remains that "I did the crime" and
    therefore had to "do the time".
    
    	If I had a boat drivers license to risk when contemplating
    the activity described in 698, I bet I would have thought more
    carefully about actually doing it. 
    
    Rick

    In Mass, you must pay extra for the M/C endorsement ("sticker?") every
    time you renew your license.  I suppose they made the usual "Oh, it's
    for M/C education" noises, but I'll lay 50 to 1 odds that sooner or
    later it'll get dumped into general funds.  
    
    I grit my teeth, but I would rather pay for the license, than higher
    insurance rates supporting do-do's that don't have a clue.  
    
    Regarding young people driving boats, it wouldn't seem unreasonable to
    test kids over some threshold age and issue a learner's permit.
    
    I think even electric trolling motors should require a license; they
    could easily slice up a swimmer or diver bad enough to cause death.  
    
    As I say, I grudgingly support licensing, since I have a problem with;
    
    "I'm qualified to operate this vehicle cuz I have a fat wallet!"
    
    Carl

    First of all, I resent being called a "license fanatic" and therefore
    dismissed all of your comments due to your ridiculous personal comment. 
    If you have a valid point, I did not hear it, neither (judging by
    previous notes) did the rest of the intelligent individuals you
    offended.  Please use caution in your judgements, they will get neither
    of us anywhere.
    
    In response to the other note about licensing in the one state, thanks
    for that info., I didn't know other states licensed boaters - and it
    works, right?  Sure people will break the law, licensed or not.  But
    don't you think some percentage of folks will obey it more closely if
    they knew the laws were enforced?  Don't we all obey the no wake buoys? 
    Even if there's no cop around??
    
    Off to sell,
    
    Deb

    RE: .75
    
    	You said something very profound in the end of your reply...
    
    	If the people knew the laws would be enforced...
    
    	You -need- enforcement.  No matter how many laws you have or how
    many licenses you require it still boils down to the fact that you have
    to put enforcement out there on the water or people won't care.  Even
    in simple traffic situations, like some people here keep referencing,
    the best deterrant is visible enforcement.
    
    	If you have to pay for enforcement anyway then why not try it
    first?
    					B.C.

    re: .76
    
    I think that summed up this whole issue. A license is only as effective
    as the enforcement of the rules.
    
    re: .74
    
    	If you go as far as requiring a license for craft with an electric
    motor because of the danger of trolling motors, let's be serious,the
    prop on my trolling motor will snap long before it could do any fatal
    damage to a person. As a matter of fact a wooden oar smacked on
    someones head repeatedly would do much more damage than my prop so
    why not require a license to by oars. See how fast and how far people
    will go to restrict the rights of the law abiding/responsible people
    for the sake of a few bozos. And if you really want to rat-hole this
    bring up the effect of gun licenses/urban murder rates.
    
    						just my .38 cents
    							J. Hanson

    Licensing provides a 'legitimate' method of milking people of more
    money.  Virtually any excuse often will do in the name of safety.
    
    Jeff