Conference vicki::boats

re                       <<< Note 1074.0 by DWOMV2::KINNEY >>>
>                 -< Mechanical Difficulties,Please stay tuned >-

>    I'm taking experienced predictions on this situation.I'm due a call

	nalkd ksjeotkf  etc.

		and it almost certainly is NOT a broken crankshaft !

>     Any wild guesses? i'll let you know when I hear back from him.

	No,  but I would be willing to wager a large sum of real money 
that the head gasket is blown - probably between two of the cylinders, 
say 2 & 3, as well as out the side.  You probably have a substantial 
fire crack by now too.

	BTW, you mentioned nothing about temperature reading, how 
many hours are on this engine, or when it was last "serviced" (I use 
the term with an amount of charity).

>    *2 weeks ago a shattered window,this week ???? Good thing i don't
>     fly planes for a living!!

	Supposedly such things  "come in threes"  so the next month or 
so could be interesting for you.


	Reg	(shade tree)

    
    My Guess?
    
    	Connecting rod or wrist pin. Is this a Mercuriser? How many
    hours? Chevrolet 4 banger?
    
    Rick0

    it is or was a 4 cylinder chevy.
    it was "serviced" in May which included most normal stuff....
    ..tune-up,oil and filter change new rotor and cap,new plugs and plug
      wires,belts,hoses inspected.
    It doesn't have an hour meter on it but i have had it for two years
    and have not had a single problem with it.
    My Guess was a valve had broke which would explain the tapping noise
    prior to the loss of power.I'M hoping for a spun bearing or connecting
    rod.

    i have just heard from the mechanic 
    The engine is lost.
    he said the piston came of connecting rod and thru the cylinder wall.
    he said i was looking at a bill of $2510.00 for rebuilt motor and labor
    charges will amount to close to $800.00.
    He had no explanation as to what would have caused this.
    
    row,row,row your boat.....

    
    Sorry to hear that my gain is your loss....
    
    Whew! $2510.00 for a rebuilt 4 banger!?! Sounds pretty steep, a new
    (maybe remanufactured) smallblock Chevy in *MARINE* form can be had
    for 3500-4000 bucks.
    
    How about taking this conversation to note 703? I don't think we've
    discussed converting 4 cyl car engines to marine use before, have we?
    
    Rick

    Can anyone speculate on what could have caused this.
    I gave the mechanic the go ahead to order a rebuilt engine.
    I'm going down to see the damage tonight.
    I just don't want a repeat of this scenario if i can prevent it.
    I had a 17 pitch prop inwhich i cruised at 35-4000 rpm and 30-33 mph.
    

re .6:

Cause: Metal fatigue? I once had the crown come off a piston in a truck
engine with 120,000 miles on it. The skirt remained attached to the
connecting rod and hammered the crown into the cylinder head. There was
so much debris in the bearings that I threw the whole thing away rather
than try to rebuild it. 

    Reg (re:1074.1) probably had the correct answer as to why it happened
    and Rick (re:1074.2) had the correct fianl results.  If the head gasket
    leaks water into the combustion chamber, the compression rises
    dramatically to the point that the piston/piston rod will let go.  If
    you take the old engine apart, look for traces of rust along the
    cylinder walls.  In a car, you are forwarned by the cloud of white
    smoke that will come out of your exhaust pipe.  In a boat you'ld
    probably never see it.  If you swallowed a valve, it would have been
    obvious to a good mechanic right away.  
    
    I know you already ordered another engine but did you consider stepping
    up to the next bigger size?  It might not cost that much more and many
    of the Chevy engines interchange very easily because Chevy had the
    bright idea of using universal bolt patterns on the back of the
    engines!  But then again (and this is not Bayliner bashing time!) you
    may be restricted to the same engine due to structural considerations
    when the boat was made.
    
    Are you sure you can't find a good used motr somewhere?  The Want
    Advertiser is full of marine engines for sale at cheap prices.
    Good luck, Wayne  

    
    I realize this is after the fact. But 2 yrs. ago a short block 350
    
    chevy short block was $1350.   I would prefer this to a rebuilt.
    
    If possible ask, it may not be to late. Of course you have to add 
    
    the labor cost of swithing the remains to the short block.
    
    
    JIm

re .8 (re .1(re .0))  (-:

	right,

from .0

>    on board.About 5 miles from home port i hear a tapping sound from
>    the engine.Thinking it's a valve not getting oil,i stop and check oil

	this was the original symptom - blown head gasket.  If power 
had been cut to idle at this point and oil pressure and temperature 
stayed within normal range....... "if"   well, it might have made it 
back to port with no further damage....   "might have"   "maybe"  "if"
etc.  It is usually better to keep such an engine running at idle to 
avoid water getting into the cylinders.


>    and it's ok,so is the oil pressure.I start back up and noise is louder
>    so i turn to go home.Halfway there i hear a loud grumbling,metal
>    meshing sound and lose all power.I tried to restart it and it acted

	with a head gasket gone/going any attempt to get power from 
the engine was..... , errrr  "unwise" ??

>     I took it to a boat mechanic,who popped the valve cover looking for
>    perhaps a snapped valve.Valves were ok,but he did find a spark plug
>    that was snapped in two.He replaced the plug and started it up and it
>    sounded like a FREIGHT CAR engine,really loud.He said he was going to

	by this time there probably wasn't much chance of doing any 
more damage, why not start it up again ?


	Hey, I don't want to make you feel any worse, but for the 
sakes of anyone else with these symptoms, just 

		GET IT TOWED IN IF YOU HAVE ANY DOUBTS AT ALL

	there are almost NO mechanical problems that will "heal" in an 
engine and most of them will lead to lot$ of expen$ive damage if the 
engine is restarted and rev'd.

	Reg

    Reg, what does this "tapping" sound sound like?  I have a "sound"
    coming from somewhere that sounds like metal on metal.  i have solid
    lifters so I was going to pull the valve covers to check the adjustment
    on them.  Maybe I have a leaking head gasket, too.  Now I don't even
    want to start it up.
    Wayne

Boy, you guys are quick when it comes to motorhead questions, eh?  :-)

I know it's late now that you know what really happened, but I just wanted to
add that your initial speculation of a snapped crank is not an impossibility.
My cousin had exactly that happen to his 289 about 7 years ago.  Of course, when
the crank snapped, the motor stopped immediately.  Be bought an '87 Nautique
shortly thereafter.

...Roger...

    Re .10
    
     I guess this is just another of life's lessons of live and learn.
     If I had the chance to do things again I wouldn't even attempt 
     what i did until the tapping noise was found and fixed.
     A $ 3,000 mistake.
     But if someone else had entered a note similar to this EARLIER...
    
                                
    
                     Joe (who will be eating soup for the next 2 months!!)

re                    <<< Note 1074.11 by SALEM::NORCROSS_W >>>
>                          -< Please describe "sound" >-

>    Reg, what does this "tapping" sound sound like?  I have a "sound"

	Duhh,  how to describe sound ????

>    coming from somewhere that sounds like metal on metal.  i have solid

	well,  "metal to metal"  is often tappet (lifter) noise and 
can only be heard at low revs, say under 1,000 rpm, unless it is VERY 
bad.

>    lifters so I was going to pull the valve covers to check the adjustment

	Good plan.

>    on them.  Maybe I have a leaking head gasket, too.  Now I don't even
>    want to start it up.

	The non destructive test is..... ta_dahh..  a compression test.

	Pull out ALL the plugs, so the motor spins easier/faster, also
disconnect the points side of the coil.  One cylinder with a very low
reading may indicate a head gasket blown "out the side"  and it will
probably show puffs of smoke or steam at idle.  Two adjacent cylinders
with very low readings usually means the gasket has blown away between
those two cylinders - on a 4 banger the symptom for this is very much
one of "no power"  and on the block that this discussion started
around there isn't much cooling between 2 & 3, so thats where they go
first )-:   To me a compression test just says whether or not I should
pull the head(s) off, then I can see if its the gasket, valves, or
whatever.  

>    Wayne

	Reg

    Welllll, Welcome to the club -- A boat is truly a hole in the water in
    which one throws money -- I hate engines and I have a 42 footer with
    twin 350 HP Crusaders -- Both with less than a 100 hours BUT one had to
    be rebuilt because someone dropped a screw down the carb hole into the
    intake manifold and eventually into a cylinder.
    
    I have an 18 footer that is having an engine rebuilt because  --- well
    Just because.
    
    I had a 36 footer that had both engines rebuilt and then rebuilt again
    because -- well Just because.
    
    I had a 24 footer with only one of the engines rebuilt because --- well
    Just because.
    
    Soooo, I'm well aware of your frustration -- I'd look for a cheaper
    alternative -- I'd even consider buying one from a salvaged boat and
    doing my own rebuild -- Can save a slug of dineros and get a new engine
    to boot.
    
    I actually know how engines work now -- What's more I've even done the
    rebuild jobs -- AND no, the rework wasn't due to me -- Thankfully
    
    For as bad as it can get, it could be worse -- The guy that bought my
    36 footer ended up blowing up the boat because he wasn't careful -- He
    even asked if I still had the insurance in effect because he didn't
    have any at the time of the explosion -- Ohh well!!  I didn't!
    
    Dennis

    re:1074.14
    Reg,
    I bought a compression tester last week and and did everything you
    said.  The compression ranged from 125 to 150 with no two cylinders
    next to one another showing any problems.  I also inspected each of
    the spark plugs as I was removing them looking for a "whiter, cleaner"
    plug which someone told me would also indicate a blown headgasket.
    They all looked the same.  The only thing that I didn't do correctly
    was warm the engine up before performing the compression test.  Does
    this matter much?  The "tapping sound" seems to be coming from the
    thermostat housing as if it's clicking open and closed.  I can even
    feel a vibration coming from the thermostat housing when I hear the 
    noise.  I can't imagine what in a thermostat could be making a noise
    but it sure sounds like it.  Where does one buy an engine stethoscope
    so that I can try to pinpoint this noise?  
    Any other ideas?
    Thanks, Wayne

re                    <<< Note 1074.16 by SALEM::NORCROSS_W >>>

>    said.  The compression ranged from 125 to 150 with no two cylinders
>    next to one another showing any problems.  I also inspected each of
>    the spark plugs as I was removing them looking for a "whiter, cleaner"

	Sounds OK for (if I remember correctly...) this engine, which 
has a few years on it.

>    plug which someone told me would also indicate a blown headgasket.
>    They all looked the same.  

	Good,
>				The only thing that I didn't do correctly
>    was warm the engine up before performing the compression test.  Does
>    this matter much?  

	difficult to say, but it might be worth trying it again with a 
warm engine....

>			The "tapping sound" seems to be coming from the
>    thermostat housing as if it's clicking open and closed.  I can even
>    feel a vibration coming from the thermostat housing when I hear the 
>    noise.  I can't imagine what in a thermostat could be making a noise
>    but it sure sounds like it.  Where does one buy an engine stethoscope

	This is a long shot   ....a long shot  (echo ?)   Look around 
for something broken or loose in the vicinity of the thermostat.  An 
accessory bolt or stud perhaps, an alternator adjustment bracket - or 
the bolt(s) to it.  Maybe you can't see anything, but if you go round 
with a socket set and just snug everything up you might find 
something.  BTW, some distributors let out some amount of tapping 
(clicking ?) that can only be heard when the engine is on idle.

>    so that I can try to pinpoint this noise?  

	Did we eliminate lifters yet ?   Sorry, I forgot.

>    Any other ideas?
>    Thanks, Wayne


	Reg

    I did not read to far back so maybe you know this.  When you do your
    compression check make sure your throttle is wide open with a warm
    engine.  You have a 25 pound difference.  I think that's about the
    acceptable difference limit.
    
    Wayne

    re:1074.17
    
    Reg, I have solid lifters in my truck I know the sound of a bad solid
    lifter.  This is something different.  I am going to run another test
    with the engine warmed up. The engine has maybe only 25 hours on it
    since being rebuilt.  I followed my manual on how to do the test.  Wide
    open throttle, coil wire off, etc., I just didn't have time to warm it
    up first.  I'll try it again.  The engine is running great right up to
    4200 - 4400 RPM.  The compression values are withing reason for the
    engine. (Manual says 20 # swing so I'm close).
    Wayne

    It sounds as if the difference between the cylinders (compression)
    is on the wide side of acceptable.
    
    As you said, warm it up and try it again.  You could inject a bit of
    oil into each cylinder too to see if that brings comp up.  If it boosts
    comp. by more than 10 psi or so you have worn rings.
    
    Jeff

    Wayne, when you did the rebuild did you replace the timing chain and
    sprockets (if this engine uses them instead of gears)?  Thats about the
    only other thing near the thermostat housing that I can think of.  
    
    Carl

    Use a broom handle holding one end to your ear and the other to the
    engine.

    
    What works alot better than a broom handle is a long bladed
    screwdriver!!
    
That's good ole Yankee mechanic stuff.........
    
    
    Bob

    Folks,
    
     I just caught the last few notes, so I may be way off base... but does
    the engine have a mechanical fuel pump? Often the pump is driven off
    the front of the cam. 
    
     Chuck

    It has a mechanical fuel pump but it's mounted to the engine where a
    car fuel pump would be.  My mechanical tach drive comes off of the
    front of the cam.
    
    By the way, this "sound" is not rythmic.  It is very intermittent.  It
    will go awhile with no noise,  make a few clicks, stop, a couple more.
    If it was rythmic I would certainly suspect a drivetrain problem.
    Wayne

    Well I finally got my my boat back last weekend.The mechanic installed
    a mercruiser 4cly 3liter motor and changed hubs to fit my omc outdrive.
    Total cost $3,133.00 w/ a one year warranty.
     Sounds a lot quieter,not much difference except no "tapping".
    
                                                    still eating soup,
                                                        for a while,..Joe