Conference vicki::boats

    Mark - I can empathize with your reluctance to install a through hull
    below the water line. I would not do that either unless it was the ONLY
    way, and it's not. 
    
      My father's 23 Proline has just such a system as you would like and 
    it was installed well after the boat was built. For a pickup, 3/4
    plastic plumbing pipe was run out through the transom perhaps a foot
    ABOVE the water line. At the bottom there is just a 90 degree elbow
    which hooks under the transom to pick up even when under way at high
    speed. Inside the boat is a washdown pump which is fed from that
    pipe. The outlet goes to a T, one side of the T goes to a plastic
    shutoff valve and then to the livewell. The other side of the T goes to
    the washdown outlet. There is also a shutoff valve on the washdown
    side, in case you do not wish to have the washdown hose connected,
    when it is, the nozzle at the end stops any flow that way unless
    you are using it, of course.
    
      The livewell has TWO 3/4" outlets at the top which drain straight over 
    the side. It also has a 1/2" drain at the bottom which you can plug if you
    like, but it is not always necessary, since the pump fills it
    faster than it can drain from the bottom. With the pump running and the
    livewell tap open, the livewell stays filled at the level of the two
    outlets at the top. When you turn the pump off, it slowly drains
    through the bottom opening - perfect!
    
      This setup works perfectly! It has the advantage of being very
    inexpensive to set up, all outlets are well ABOVE the waterline which I
    really like, and the plastic pipe is easy to work with and cheap, as
    are the plastic ballcocks.
    
    					Kenny

    I'm not clear about the problems (if any) associated with the combination
    through-hole fitting/seacock installation below the water line.  I know
    they exist...but what are the draw backs?
    
    The seacock will block water trying to enter through the throughull
    fitting....But what if I forget to close it upon leaving the boat on my
    mooring?
    
    	Water will flow toward the pump...But lets see; it won't travel any
    higher than the waterline...but-Say if the hose to the pump is configured
    in such a way that the water flows to the pump.  (or pump could be
    below the waterline)..Will the pump completely stop the flow of water?
    or will water want to continue to want to flow around the internal
    blades within the pump and beyond.
    
    I realize these livewell/washdowns have been proven and have been
    around a long time.  I just want to THINK the installation through
    with the help/experience of you boater_noters so I install everything
    appropriately with some foresight.  I'm gonna need to muster up some
    courage in order to drill a hole in the bottom of a perfectly good
    boat.
    
    /MArk
    
    FYI : As an addition to this discussion; I have been told by the Grady 
    Dealer that sometime ago GW got with ShurFlo (pump manufacturer) and
    negotiated some sort of plastic coating to be applied to the pump
    exteriors that GW ordered for installation at their factory.  GW felt that
    this added a greater degree of corrision resistance to the pump.  Now
    ShurFlo offers certain models with this coating as standard.
    
    
    

    
      My idea is that ANY hole below waterline can leak. It shouldn't, it
    probably won't, but it can and it does happen and then boats sink.
    
    					Kenny

    Gentleman, if you install a thru-hull correctly, and if you use
    the proper materials, you will not have a problem.
    
    JIm.

    re: .4
    I don't know how you can say "never" Jim.  NASA's best engineer's
    couldn't get the space shuttle up in the air earlier this week
    due to a valve failure.
    
    Proper installation and top quality materials will *reduce*, but
    not eliminate the likelihood of failure and sinking.  If there's
    a sensible way to get by without thru-hulls below the waterline,
    it makes sense to me to do it.
    
    Rick

    I agree with Jim. I have owned boats that are moored year-round for
    over 15 years and have never had a problem with a bronze thru-hull.
    In fact, most boats have at least five. Two engine intakes, one head
    intake, one outlet, one generator intake. If you have Air, add another
    one plus bait wells and washdown intakes. Go for it!
    

    
      I won't rathole this, but....
    
      Not risky? Sure its risky. Acceptably risky? Probably. I think the
    MAJOR key words are "IF done properly". One of the thru-hulls in my
    father's old boat lasted a long time, too. Exactly 15 years before it
    leaked and almost sunk the boat.
    
      The transom setup is so easy and so much less likely to cause problem
    (and even reversible) that I would hardly consider a thru-hull setup
    unless there was some compelling reason.
    
    				Kenny

RE: FDCV06::BORZUMATO                                     
    
>>    Gentleman, if you install a thru-hull correctly, and if you use
>>    the proper materials, you will not have a problem.
    
     Jim, I had to re-read my base note/ But....This is exactly the info
    I'm looking to obtain from this file.  Collecting the pros/cons, hows
    and howNOTS are what should be included in this file.  Opinions are
    acceptable as well.
    
    I'm having some difficulty visualizing your reply;
    
    "install thru-hull correctly"  and "use the proper materials".  
    
    Perhaps you've installed one of these livewells and we could benefit
    from Your experience.  What constitutes 'correct' installation?
    I've heard:
    
    * Not to close to the centerline of the hull as the turbulence caused by 
    the water moving briskly over the through-hole (while underway) could 
    affect the prop action. i.e. cavatation etc.
    
    * Seal the area around the thru-hole with the proper sealant..Now
      there are a number of sealants available...Use below the water line
      eliminates a few.  Should it be 'caulk' or boatlife sealant.  ...
      
    ..MArk

    I recommend 3M 5200 over Boatlife. I have used both and find Boatlife
    is far from permanent. 5200 wears much longer and doesn't discolor like
    Boatlife. (I used the white color stuff)

Thanks Steve, I picked up the 3M 5200 along with some nautical hardware 
    for the installation.  The sales person recommended the 3M 5200 over
    the Boatlife caulk for the same reasons you stated.  
    I'm assuming I should be staying with the nautical brands of plumbing 
    fixtures for their resistance to saltwater corrosive environments.
    Along that line I have a couple questions.

1) I picked up the bronze thru-hull intake strainer and the water outlet, both 
   Perko brand.  The seacock (or in-line valve) I purchased was an Apollo brand
    resembling a valve found in your local plumbing supply.  It was purchased 
    at Boat U.S.  
After looking over the valve and comparing it to the description of the 
similar Perko valve I find the following differences.  The Apollo valve is 
bronze and appears to have a chrome plated ball seated in teflon with no other 
features.  The Perko brand described in my catalog is also bronze with a 
bronze ball seated in teflon with a bonding screw and a drain plug.  Anybody 
hear of this Apollo brand?  and/or am I hung up on brand names.

2) This past weekend I visited the Grady dealer and a boat yard to view the 
installation of the through hull strainer.  The 3 boats at the dealership 
had the through hulls mounted with the strainer section facing forward toward 
the bow.  The 2 boats I looked at in the yard had their through hulls 
mounted with the strainer facing toward the stern.  All the thru-hull 
strainers were intakes for a washdown and/or livewell system.  I would think 
that the strainer facing forward would tend to get seaweed trapped very easily 
while the boat was underway.  However, with the strainer mounted toward the 
stern, air turbulence around the thru-hull while underway could result in less 
than 100% positive flow of water when the pump was turned on.  But these are 
only my observations.  
What is the correct direction of the strainer?  

/MArk

    
    Apollo is Wilcox Critendon, in my opinion the best.
    
    The biggest reason for thru hull failure is that folks dont inspect
    them, you need to scrape away some bottom paint and see the color
    of the thur-hull, if it has a reddish tinge change it, as it has
    begun to deteriorate.
    
    Wilcox is in CT, they can send you directions on installation.
    
    Not sure, put another note in here.
    
    
    As for the Skeptisism about thru-hulls, i went thru this knot
    
    hole, when i went from samller boats to larger, (read, had no choice
    about them) its a typical fear syndrome.
    
    JIm.

See notes 273.* and 752.* in the sailing notesconference (UNIFIX::SAILING) 
for a discussion of seacock installation. You must use a backing plate
inside to hull to locally strengthen it. I use 1/2" marine plywood
coated with several coats of epoxy to waterproof it. I make the backing
plates several inches larger in diameter than the base diameter of the
seacock flange and epoxy the plywood to the hull before installing the
seacock. Be sure to epoxy coat the insides of the holes drilled through 
the plywood before installing the thru-hull and seacock. I would
recommend Sikaflex 231 bedding compound. Tough stuff with more
elasticity than 3M5200. Seacocks I installed more than 10 years ago 
haven't leaked yet.

Alan

    Mark,
    
      I have the live well thru hull fitting on my grady and never have
    had a problem. The thru hull is a bronze fitting in the bilge with
    a gate valve for a shut off. The hose then runs to the raw water
    pump. From the pump it goes through a Y valve to either the wash down
    hose or the live well. The livewell has a drain, the water is pushed
    in the bottom of the live well and drains from the top causing the
    circulation.
    
    Use 3M 5200 caulk for the thru hull fitting. iI just pulled the
    thru transducer out of my boat to put a new one in and the old
    was was mount with the 5200 and it never leaked and was "glued"
    on plenty tight.
    
    Bruce

re .13:

Gate valves should never be used on thru-hull fittings, most especially 
below the waterline. No surveyor would approve them. They too easily jam
open and are prone to leaks. Their only virtue is low cost. For maximum
safety and reliability use a seacock that thru-bolted to the hull and not
just screwed onto a thru-hull fitting. Our boat came from the builder 
with five seacocks just screwed onto thru-hull fittings. I've since 
replaced four of them with Jabsco bronze ball valve thru-bolted seacocks 
and eliminated the fifth. 

Alan

    
    I agree tatally with the gate valve discussion, they are pure junk,
    in use below the water. The biggest reason for failure is the
    the gate itself. The gate becomes crudded up, and becomes increasingly
    harder to close or open, finally stem failure becomes the actual
    cause. i.e., the handle falls off, so you cannot either continue
    to open or completely close it.
    
    I disagree with the fact that a surveyor won't accept them,
    he might strongly recommend they be changed to a ball type.
    
    A definite no-no as mentioned is having a valve supported
    by the thru-hull, a backing plate as mentioned, i like 
    3m5200 (personal choice) and bronze silicone bolts, washers,
    and nuts. i.e. a nice 3m5200 sandwich. Your best bet is
    to epoxy the water side of the holes. suggest the West line
    of epoxies with a thickening agent.  
    
    The other is wire wound hose, about $7.00 a ft., but meant for
    use below the waterline, at least to the pump.
    
    JIm.

    Re: last responses...Thanks...you seem to be reading my mind.
    
    I haven't found any book on the dos & don'ts of thru-hull installations
    but you folks have brought up a number of points I've had concerns
    about.
    
    I.E. The mounting of the seacock (valve) on the end of the thru-hull 
         within the bilge area.
    
    The installations I've viewed at the Grady dealership had an in-line valve
    screwed onto the end of the thru-hull fitting. 
    
    (The name Seacocks and on/off valves seem to be used interchangeably, my 
    distributors catalog shows seacocks as having a mounting flange and the 
    valves appear to be for in-line applications) 
    
    The uppermost part of the seacock body measured about 6 inches above the 
    inside of the fiberglass hull.  The end of the handle extended abit higher.
    The seacock handle 'does' require more than a fingers pressure in order to
    move the valve open or closed.  It was this torque..back &
    forth..working against the hull that I was questioning in my mind.  The 
    seacock I purchased does have mounting 
    tabs:				on the side.  I was wondering how
    			|	|
    		      __|	|__
    		      |o	 o|
    		      --	 --
    		        |	|
    to best reinforce the seacock in addition to its attachment to the
    thru-hull.  I believe the arrangement Alan is describing uses a
    seacock body which looks like the following:	|	|
    							|	|
    						     ___|	|___
    						     ---------------
    which would appear to want to be mounted flush to a flat surface. 
    I saw these in the stores.  The question I always had was that a
    seacock of this type would want to be screwed into something like the
    hull or a mounting plate (PT wood?) between the hull and the seacock
    otherwise the mounting screws would need to travel thru the hull
    somewhere in the vicinity of the 4 thru-hull mounting screws.  I think
    its time to view another installation.  I picked out out the pump
    today. It was a Shurflo Baitmaster.  This particular model is
    encapsulated with Shurcote(tm) for improved resistance to the saltwater.
    
    Any verdict on the direction the thru-hole strainer?
    
    /MArk									
    								

    
    I may sound very insistent here "DO as Alan recommended"
    
    use plywood as a backing plate, "DO NOT" use anything else.
    
    The thru-hull must be cut to length, to screw into the bottom
    
    of the valve.   If you need a drawing of this, send me mail.
    
    Its not that difficult, once you've done it, its a no-brainer.
    
    
    JIm.

    
      My whole point was (and still is) why use a thru hull when there
    is an equally good way to accomplish the same task without one?
    Regardless of how reliable the correct installtion is, one less hole is
    one less chance for leaking and places/things to inspect each year.
    
    				Kenny

    The hose on comming off the value is the wiring wound type in my 
    installation. I may have misnamed the value on my installation. It
    is screwed into the bronze thru hull fitting and opens an closes
    with a quarter  turn of a lever.
    
    Bruce

    Every strainer I have ever seen for intakes has the slotted side toward
    the bow so water is trapped when underway. 

    OK. - The strainers at the dealership are faced toward the bow also.
    I wouldn't think they'ed screw it up.
    
    I spoke to the Shurflo Pump customer service.  I was searching for a 
    particular model that I wasn't able to find..(The Baitmaster!) 
    Turns out E&B Marine carrys it.  It's suppose to be a supurb pump
    for livewell/waskdown applications.
    
    He said that a in-line filter with 50 mesh SS screen will save pump 
    headaches over time.  Otherwise all kinds of unwanted debris can enter 
    the pump causing premature failure.  Makes sense to me.  ~$11.00.
    This is going to be one cadillac(sp?) installation.
    
    /MArk

By the way, 3M5200 is a very strong adhesive, and should only be used 
for putting things together that you'll never want to take apart again. 
It also cures very slowly (like about a week for full cure). 3M
recommends 3M101 for thru-hulls and the like. I've used Sikaflex 231 with 
complete success. 

    re:-1
    Alan, Your point about wanting to disassemble the installation is well
    taken...I guess the compromise is whats the best material to use
    leaving the after-thought of "but what about repairs?"
    
    Do I ever want to remove the through-hull fitting?  I don't think so.(?)
    
    I figure I may want to remove the seacock from the through-hull for
    some type of maintenance...as in; if I break the handle off or if it
    gets real corroded and hard to turn.  I had planned to use teflon tape
    when I attach the seacock to the trough-hull.  The pump manufacturer
    warns against using any type of pipe dope which may eventually enter
    the pump inlet.
    
    Does 3M state that 3M101 and 3M 5200 are for two different applications?
    
    This weekend I came across the Anchor Marine Product Catalog.  It
    contained lots of different gauges of tinned wire in a number of
    configurations, duplex and triplex wire cable etc.  They offer heat
    shrink butt-connectors and ring terminals etc. The connectors have 
    an adhesive under the heat-shrink which melts during application of 
    the heat gun.  This forms a tight seal which is is suppose to resist 
    the elements and withstand vibration etc.
    
    E&B Marine carrys the Anchor wire and connectors.
    
    /MArk
    

    
>>    This weekend I came across the Anchor Marine Product Catalog.  It
>>    contained lots of different gauges of tinned wire in a number of
>>    configurations, duplex and triplex wire cable etc.  They offer heat
    
Mark,

Are the prices for the tinned wire any better than the BOAT US prices?

	Steve

    Steve, Boat U.S. had a very poor(minimal) selection of Ancor Wire
    compared to E&B Marine.  I was looking for a 25 ft. spool of duplex
    10 or 12 gauge.  E&B had the 10 gauge on a 100 ft. spool so you could
    choose your own length...$1.25/ft.  Both stores had a good supply of
    heat shrink connectors.
    
    The Baitmaster Shurflow pump draws 6 amps open flow and can draw up to
    12 amps before sensing 40 psi and shuting down.
    
    /MArk