Conference vicki::boats

    In a word,YES.
    Moving the pin on my outboard makes a difference.In the middle,best
    compromise,dropping it one hole for skiing does cause more plowing,
    but planing is easier.Setting it up one hole causes marked cavitation
    just like you noticed on yours.This will vary according to speed and
    the load in your boat and other things,but you probably found out the
    answer to your own question.
    
    
    Keith
    

It could also be a "spun prop." The blades of the prop are molded onto
the outside sheath; this sheath is rubber-mounted to the sleeve that is
actually driven by the propellor shaft. That rubber mounting occasionally
breaks loose. When that happens, your boat will operate well at slow
speed but as soon as you `hit it' the prop shaft spins inside the blade
assembly. The solution in this case is a new prop.

Hmmm, if it is just cavitation with no "spun prop", then I have a problem
because the boat plows like crazy with the motor in a more forward position.
Can't get much speed at all without getting soaked.

re: -1

> actually driven by the propellor shaft. That rubber mounting occasionally
> breaks loose. When that happens, your boat will operate well at slow
> speed but as soon as you `hit it' the prop shaft spins inside the blade
> assembly. The solution in this case is a new prop.

If it was a spun prop, then by your description the prop wouldn't be 
turning much, right ?  Would a spun prop cause a rather large cavity
around the lower unit when I try to pick up speed ?   And [sorry for all
the questions, but] what would I look for to determine if I have a spun
prop ?  Ie, if I removed the prop, what would I look for ?

I did hit soft bottom after launching at low tide if that's any clue...
Very minor, I think :-/

Ken

    
     Did this problem suddenly appear. or did it happen slowly. The
    "plowing could be caused by a hogged hull (this is a wooden boat) ,
    which is not all that uncommon. 
    
     I had a 1956 17' Thompson and noticed as the end of a boating season
    drew near that the boat tended to plow into the water mor and more.
    Tilting the motor back one notch helped, but I ended up getting
    cavitation after the second notch.
    
     I kept the boat in the water all year round, so I hauled it. It didn't
    take a rocket scientist to see the problem once I got it on the
    trailer. The center of the keel was about  1 1/2 " higher tha either
    end!  
    
     I ended up putting a clunker motor on it and selling it- the handling
    was a disaster once she got  up on plane.
    
     Look for the obvious first- check the prop (you should have a spare
    one for those eventual emergencies when you eat one on a rock)- also check
     for growth on the bottom- lke grass, barnacles etc.
    
     If taht doesn;t do it - check the keel for being true with a
    starightedge or a taught string. Your problem has to be one of those.
    
     I hated getting rid of taht boat- I had it all fixed up - striipped
    all the varnish and paint, sanded, filled, stained, varnished and
    painted. IT looked like a piece of furniture.
    
    
    Dick
    

    Isn't the rubber clutch on props I think you're referring to a relatively 
new feature on engines?  In the old days they had a shear-pin...

 

    Cavitation you can observe only from the noise of motor or
    from the behavior of your boat according your cruise speed.
    If you have a Out.Engine with hydraulic triming try diferrent
    positions of the motor,cavitation occurs more as the prop is
    near to surface of the water.
    But as already said best solution is after a certain time of 
    operation to buy a new prop.

Ken,
First, you should be sure you don't have a "mechanical" problem of some 
sort. They could be:

- Weeds around the prop
- nicks, gouges, or bent blades on the prop
- a spun hub (unlikely if you're digging a hole in the water)
- motor mounted too high (cavitation plate should be even with or just
  below the transom)

If all these things check out OK, you probably have on older style
"non-cupped" prop.  Cupping is when the last 3/8" or so of the trailing 
edge of each prop blade is curled over a bit.  Cupping effectively 
increases prop pitch by about 1 to 2 inches, reduces slip, and allows
much greater trim angles without cavitation.

You're probably running a non-cupped prop, and didn't experience the
symptoms until you trimmed the motor out.  Check your prop to see if it
is cupped.  If not, your options are to either trim the motor back in
and live with the plowing problem, buy a newer style cupped prop, or try 
to alleviate the plowing problem by shifting weight toward the rear 
of the boat, lightening the bow.

Rick

I first experienced a spun prop with a '58 Johnson, which had a shear
pin. It happens with or without a shear pin.

The symptoms are, you hit the throttle (or gradually roll it on), the
engine begins to rev faster, the boat accelerates, then suddenly the
acceleration drops off but the engine revs very high, almost like the
gearing is jumping into neutral. The prop doesn't come to a stop, but
spins at a rate much slower than the engine shaft is turning. 

In your car, if you take off gradually your tires are coupled directly to
the pavement and you accelerate. But, if you floor the gas pedal and dump
the clutch you break traction and smoke the tires; you *will* move
forward, but not at the rate you would have if you hadn't broken
traction. 

That's what happens inside the prop when it is suffering from "spun prop"
disease. One significant difference is that there can be less loading on
the prop in the initial phase of the rev-up (possibly because 2-cycle
engines just don't develop much horsepower at low revs), so there is
*some* acceleration. As the engine revs come up, the engine climbs
higher on its horsepower curve, starts to shove more torque to the prop,
and the rubber mounting breaks loose. It usually stays "broken" until you
come to a stop, go to neutral, then shift back to forward. 

Art

    re. "spun prop"
    
    Look at the end of the prop and you can see the rubber sheath.  You
    should be able to see if the rubber has broken away from the metal.  It
    was obvious on mine.

    
    IF you check teh service manuals, the newer motors have a "Drive Pin"
    that basically connects the propellor to the drive shaft instead of a shear
    pin. Any overload/shock is taken up by the rubber insert. This pin is a
    hardened pin. I have seen drive shfts crack/break before this pin
    fails.
    
     On small, low HP motors, they still use a shear pin as they do not 
    have the expensive rubber insert in the prop.
    

Thanks for all the replies.  I was out friday and couldn't reply till now.

Let's see...

First off, what's planing ?  It's referred to a lot and I want to know
what I'm reading...

What exactly is a "hogged keel" again ?  I don't get it...  BTW, I trailer
my boat the 75 miles to the ocean, and have only had it out about 5 times
since I got the towing vehicle.  Now growth at all anywhere.  Is the hogged
keel caused by water absorption/swelling ?  The keel has had a lot of work
done - fiberglass coated, some lead sheets, lots of history with this one.
I'll check it for straightness tonight.

No weeds around the prop at the time, but I do have a fairly good sized 
boat-rookie-induced nick in the prop blade.  Would a nick cause cavitation ?
Don't know if the blades are bent, but if they are, it's not much.  I will
look more closely at it though.

I get excellent accelleration at first and the motor really digs in.
The cavitation happens without a whole lot of speed.

The motor mounted is mounted as low as it can go; cavitation plate is 
even or just slightly below the transom/keel intersection, which seems right.

And yes, I do have an older non-cupped prop.  Someone else mentioned that 
installing one would help.  more $ for the $ hole, hopefully I can avoid it ;-)

re: Rick

> You're probably running a non-cupped prop, and didn't experience the
> symptoms until you trimmed the motor out.  Check your prop to see if it

Yes.  I plowed a lot and figured I'd try running with the motor trimmed back
a notch.  Then the cavitation problem occurred suddenly.

I spoke with the former owner of the boat, who used it for 20+ years on
the salt water.  The way he responded to the problem was that I should
put more weight in the rear of the boat, and see how it responds in the
motor's current or 1-notch-forward position.  It's just the way it is with 
this particular boat.   He suggested having someone hang out in back, or
placing some buckets of water there, anything to get more weight in the
rear.   I have a feeling that it's got to do with the weight distr and
the notched prop.  This boat isn't meant to fly.

re: Art

The symptoms you describe also sound like basic cavitation problem symptoms.
Am I right in assuming that there are no physical things to look for when
looking at the prop ?

I looked into the rear opening of the prop.   I didn't see anything unusual
or odd, like burnt rubber, or shavings, or uneven mountings.

Thanks!
Ken

Sounds to me like a bad prop.

Your right, boats are Money Pits and it is always something. Between new toys
and repairs I'm always buying somehing. Just ask my wife she'll tell you all 
about it.

I would replace the prop and maybe try a few different ones before buying a 
replacement. I also have a 16.5 ft boat with a 70 hp Evinrude on it. I use
a 17 pitch and it works great but had to try out a few before I found one I
liked. 

But if this prop has a "good size" nick then replace it. I believe that is
your problem, I would think this could also cause lower-end problems/repairs, 
do to the wobble from the bad prop. You can pay now or you can pay later. 
Save the prop with the nick as a spare or maybe even get it rebuilt.

What size engine due you have ?

Also what pitch/size prop are you using ?

						Jim

    "What is planing".   Thats when the boat rises up out of the water and
    skims along on the rear part of the hull with about 2/3rd of the boat
    essentially out of the water.
    
    "Put weight in the stern"  Bad fix IMO.  Thats like stepping on the gas
    and brakes at the same time..... what a waste especially if your
    loading weight that doesn't have to be there, like buckets of water.
    Its one thing if you move a gas can aft.
    
    Hogged keel, is when the keel is bent upward with the bow and stern 
    keel sections HIGHER than the hogged section.
    
    Jeff
    

re:                    <<< Note 1016.12 by POOL::JMCLAUGHLIN >>>

> But if this prop has a "good size" nick then replace it. I believe that is
> your problem, I would think this could also cause lower-end problems/repairs, 
> do to the wobble from the bad prop. You can pay now or you can pay later. 
> Save the prop with the nick as a spare or maybe even get it rebuilt.

Whoa!   A nicked prop can cause lower unit problems ?  I'll change it right
away using the extra prop I got with the boat.   The last thing I want is
problems in that area!   *Thanks a million* for pointing that out!  

BTW, the nick is about 1/4 inch deep, 5/8 inches wide.   Is this 
considered major ?

> What size engine due you have ?

It's a 65 hp Envinrude, 1978 (but was in storage for 8 years while the
former owner was recovering from some nasty operations).  It was stored 
properly and runs absolutely mint.

> Also what pitch/size prop are you using ?

I have no idea.  This stuff is all news to me...

re:  <<< Note 1016.13 by SALEM::GILMAN >>>

>    "What is planing".   Thats when the boat rises up out of the water and
>    skims along on the rear part of the hull with about 2/3rd of the boat
>    essentially out of the water.

The only time this boat does this is at the beginning of accelleration.
The keel at the bow lies low compared to the rest of the boat.
    
>    Hogged keel, is when the keel is bent upward with the bow and stern 
>    keel sections HIGHER than the hogged section.

Definitely not that on my boat, which has the opposite "bend", if any.
The keel in the bow area section dips down quite a bit - it's a really deep V 
bow.

Ken

Ken,
A gouge the size of the dimensions you listed in not a "nick".  And it
could certainly cause cavitation problems, by creating turbulence in the
water it is trying to move.  If the damaged prop is bad enough, it can 
throw the prop off balance which will put a lot of abnormal wear on the 
lower unit bearings and seals.  It will not, however, cause immediate
lower unit failure.

Since you say that the prop is *not* cupped, you really need to upgrade
anyway.  Take your existing prop, hammer and file the "nick" as best you 
can, then put it in a storage compartment for use as a spare.  I would 
shop around for a good deal on a new 13 1/4" x 17" or 13 1/4" x 15" 
aluminum prop with cupped blades.  The 15" pitch prop may work better 
for you, since the boat is slightly underpowered anyway, and good 
acceleration and low end power is probably more critical to your needs 
than absolute top end speed.  From the sound of it, you're in an area 
where you're likely to scrape bottom.  In which case, you only want an 
aluminum prop, not stainless steel which is more expensive to buy, repair, 
and will transfer more damage to the lower unit if you hit something.

If you're buying a new prop, the dealer or store will be able to look
up the part number for your 65hp motor.  If you're buying a used one,
keep in mind that the OMC (Johnson and Evinrude) 60, 65, 70, 75, 88, 90,
100, 110, and 115 hp motors all take the same dimension props. If you find
one with the correct measurements off any of these motors it should fit.
The prop dimensions are generally stamped on the "inside" of the hub, which
requires that the prop be removed to see it. Some also have it on the hub
or one of the blades.  The first measurement is the diameter of the prop,
you want 13" or 13 1/4".  The second measurement is the "pitch", or
theoretical distance the prop will travel forward with one rotation.
Again, my guesstimate is that you need either 15" or 17", which will allow
the engine to come up into the powerband faster than a 19" prop.

re: planing
> The only time this boat does this is at the beginning of accelleration.
> The keel at the bow lies low compared to the rest of the boat.

It would be very abnormal (read: impossible) for a boat to plane during 
acceleration and then come off plane at higher speeds. If the boat is
skimming along the water it is planing.  How much of the boat is actually
contacting the water is pretty much irrelevant.  One way to tell, is that 
when the boat comes up on plane, you can back off on the throttle and 
maintain the same speed.

Rick

	Well, thanks again for the advice and great info!  Amazing what 
	kind of info is on this network, for boats ;-)

	Ken

    Hogging.  I am wrong.... its the OPPOSITE.... that is the bow and stern
    sections of the keel are LOWER than the hogged section which is higher
    than the bow and stern.... that is with a side (profile) view of the
    boat.  
    
    Jeff

    
    
     Hogging is when the center of the keel pushes upwards. THis cause the
    boat to want to "DIVE". When the hull is bowed (stern and bow higher
    than center), the boat will want to porpoise when underway.
    BOW							 Stern
    \
     \							   |							
      \_____________________------------___________________|
    			Hogged keel
    
    
    \
     \                                                      |
      \__________________                  _________________|       
    			-------------------	
    			Bowed Keel
    
    
    
    
    
    Dick
    

Thanks for the clarification. While I haven't had a chance to check 
the keel really closely, it generally looks like this:

   \							   |
    \							   |
     \		         __________________________________|
      \_________________/
    
    
As I mentioned in a prior reply, it really noses down in the bow section.
It's always looked like that, by design I assume.  From what I can recal
doing some recent work on the trailer, I don't think the stern section
is higher or lower to a great degree than the middle section.

Ken

There is a very slight dip of the keel at the stern of the boat.  *slightly*
hogged perhaps.  The dip starts < 1 foot from the transcom, and is slight.
I don't think there's much I can do about it though, or if I'd need to.

Took off the damaged prop last night.  In the OMC box that it came in,
I found some documentation that says "this is a CUPPED prop".   Now that 
I've seen it and compared it with my uncupped spare (probably the original), 
the cupping is obvious and I see what the difference is with an uncupped one 
I also saw that I must have hit something rather badly to put the gouge in it.  
The gouge was not there before this caviation problem occurred, so it seems 
safe to assume that that's the source of the problem.  

The size of the cupped prop is 13 1/4 x 17.

Can anyone recommend a place to rebuild the cupped prop around the Worcester
area ?   Or near Marlboro ?    [If it's "spun" I'll find out too].

Thanks again,
Ken

    Ahhhh!  As Paul Harvery would say, now we know the rest of the story.
    The cavitation started after you put the gouge in the prop? I thought
    you originally said it started after you trimmed the motor out? Either
    event could cause cavitation, and if a bad gouge and extra trim are
    introduced at the same time it would almost guarantee cavitation.  
    
    I don't know off hand of a prop repair shop in your area.  But most
    marinas provide a pickup & delivery service with at least one prop
    shop.   Drop it off at the marina, and pick it up a week or two later.
    I don't think you pay anything extra for it, the marina's cut is paid 
    by the prop repair shop.
    
    Rick

    RE: .19,
    
    That's hogging.  If you could hold a long enough straightedge along the
    keel and have it touch at two points nearer the ends with any space
    showing in between, that's hogged.  The more space, the worse the
    hogging, and the worse its manners underway.  No conventional boat is 
    designed with hogging built in, as it produces horrendous handling in 
    certain conditions, in power or sail.  Hogging is commonly caused by 
    either defects in design or construction.  In the Age of Sail, when 
    large vessels typically had long straight keels, hogging was not 
    uncommon when the boat got "tired".  If hogged significantly, it usually 
    meant relegation to a final assignment such as the risky granite trade 
    (founder a little = sink *fast*), a navy barracks vessel, a fish or
    lobster pound (run it aground and drill holes through the hull) or 
    simply handing it over to the shipbreakers for salvage value.
    
    John. 

re:                      <<< Note 1016.21 by GOLF::WILSON >>>

>                              -< Problem solved? >-

Hopefully it will be soon...

>    The cavitation started after you put the gouge in the prop? I thought
>    you originally said it started after you trimmed the motor out? Either

Both at the same time. Actually, I trimmed it back on a saturday, and went
fishing.  Seemed OK.   On wed I was back out fishing, then got the gouge
(unknown to me at the time); the cavitation problem started happening
later that day.

Ken

I went to Hazard Marine in Webster where I've had some work done (seals, etc)
in the past to get my prop checked out.  According to the owner my prop is ok.
For one thing it's not spun.  And in his opinion, the nick/small gouge in it 
wouldn't cause my cavitation problem. He said I trimmed it back too much. ALso 
said he remembered my boat and the large hook in it (ie the hogged hull), and 
said that's my main problem.

I trimmed it back because I'd get soaked when speeding up.  He said it's an old
wooden boat, and they aren't designed for performance, and that getting wet is
the "way it is" with those old boats.  Recommended trimming forward.

He also said the motor is too much for this boat, and he's right.  I can never
really open up the motor and get it cranking much at all, which got me thinking.
I'd really like to be able to get to Quabbin Res in this boat, which has a max
of 20 HP.   Is there a market for a '78 65hp Evinrude in mint mechanical 
condition ?  Any idea what I could get for it ?   It was in storage for 8 years 
[properly stored] because the previous owner [a friend] had some health 
problems.  It doesn't have a whole lot of hours on it, and runs extremely well.  
If I could sell it and turn the $ around into a new 20, I'd be real psyched.
What does a new 20 go for ?

Thanks
Ken

    OH! you have a WOOD boat..... maybe you can get the hog OUT!  Here is
    how to try.... for the winter I suggest you support the keel in all
    areas EXCEPT where the hogged area is.  For a distance of at least
    a couple of feet beyond the hogged area give the keel NO SUPPORT.
    As the boat dries over the winter you may well find the hog gone by
    spring. My boat is wood too and I virtually eliminated a hog by not
    supporting that area when the boat is out of the water.
    
    Where does the spray come aboard? Over the stern? Or where?
    
    The worse that will happen if you try getting the hog out is that it
    won't come out... but I will bet you can reduce the hog.
    
    Jeff

re:                      <<< Note 1016.25 by SALEM::GILMAN >>>

>    OH! you have a WOOD boat..... maybe you can get the hog OUT!  Here is

	I was thinking the same thing.   My guess is that while the previous
	owner had his health problems with the motor stored away, the boat
	sat on the trailer.  Probably developed the hull problem then.

	Trying what you suggested should be pretty easy to do.  I can
	try it after installing the new floor, sanding and scraping and
	painting/varnishing the inside, etc.

>    Where does the spray come aboard? Over the stern? Or where?
    
	Over the bow on either side.  Wicked drenching spray which soaks
	you when you turn, or with a good gust of wind.

	Ken

    Spray:  You 'have to' get the bow up a bit of course.  Can you move
    weight aft, or, of course you can adjust the tilt as you have been
    doing.  Where do you have the boat? What State, Town?
    
    Hog:  You can even put some weight IN the boat over the hog to help
    'encourage' it to come out.  Remember, the hog went in... that means
    it can be gotten out. As long as you do it gradually over a period
    of time... weeks.... months, you won't hurt the boat.  Putting 
    several thousand pounds over the unsupported hog would of course
    get the hog out and ruin the boat too.  I had about a 2 inch
    hog in the keel of my boat which was about 2/3rds of the way aft.
    The boat had been stored improperly supported for years which is
    what put the hog in.  This summer I lowered the trailer keel block
    under the hog so that section of the keel is unsupported on the
    trailer and have gone about my boating business.  Now the hog is only
    about a half inch high.  I hope that after all winter storage and a full
    drying out with the hog unsupported that it will be gone by spring.
    I haven't noticed performance problems with the boat... not even
    when it was hogged a full 2 inches.  In fact, the wooden boat performs
    so well compared to my ex boat, a Mirrocraft 17 foot aluminum boat...
    that I sold the Mirrocraft.
    
    Wood moves and works normally... the hog is part of that motion.  Yes,
    it can cause problems such as the hog but the flip side is that the
    wood can be moved back too... so the hog is gone.
    
    Jeff

re:                      <<< Note 1016.27 by SALEM::GILMAN >>>

> Where do you have the boat? What State, Town?

	Charlton MA (which is next to Sturbridge MA).

	Come to think of it, the way the hull is supported on the EZ Loader
	is where the hook is.   

	Ken

    Ken, must be a big town for wooden boats.  That's where my "woody" came
    from, Echo Lake (??).  I learned to water ski on Charlton Reservoir.
    Which lake you on?  
    To get back to the subject of "hogs", there is a boat trailer place
    over on Rt. 12 in Oxford (almost into Webster) that sells trailer
    components retail.  (They also make complete trailers but don't sell
    them retail).  If your trailer is a roller type, they sell the
    carpeted bunk boards needed to convert it to bunk style.  I am going
    to rebuild my trailer before I take my wooden boat out for the season
    because my trailer was made with bunks for and aft that run side to
    side instead of along the lenght of the trailer.  This leaves the
    weight of the inboard engine totally unsupported so I'm sure I must
    have a "hog" on my hull.  I am going to place the new bunks 22 inches
    apart so they will be directly under the stringers.
    If I remember correctly, there was a prior note on wooden boats where
    someone else from either Charlton or one of the adjacent towns was
    heavy into wood boat restorations.   I remember cause I'm originally
    from Oxford and I was going to go see these people to get advise.
    You might want to do a directory on "wood" to see if you can locate
    them.
    Wayne

    Can you move the support under the hog down so that the hog can settle
    out?   Also, if you can move the support down take a measurement
    between the 'roller' and keel so you can measure it later and see if
    the hog is settling out.
    
    Jeff

    I'm no expert on wooden boat construction, but it seems to me
    that assuming that after the hull sags back into shape it will
    stay that way is a bit far-fetched.  If the original construction
    of the hull wasn't strong enough to prevent hogging, what's to
    prevent it from returning when the boat comes off the trailer
    and goes back in the water?
    
    You've probably got a combination of things that caused the hogging;
    lack of proper support on the trailer, improper design i.e. not
    enough or strong enough ribbing in that area, and deteriorating
    wood and fastenings.  IMO even if that hull does straighten out 
    over the winter, it's going to shape itself right back into a 
    "hogged" condition as soon as you get underway next spring.
    
    Why not rig up some bracing inside the hull this fall that will 
    help coerce the hull back into the proper shape as it dries over
    the winter?  Or possibly put some heavy weights inside the hull in
    the area you want to push out.  Then next spring, before launching,
    make the new shape more permanent by strengthening the ribbing or 
    making whatever repairs are necessary to keep the hog from returning.  
    
    Just MHO, of course...
    
    Rick

re:                    <<< Note 1016.29 by SALEM::NORCROSS_W >>>

>    Which lake you on?  

	I do more salt water than lakes, but I've been on Buffamville,
	Quabog, South Pond, etc.   If I can swing selling the 65 hp and	
	getting a 20, it will be Quabbin for sure.

	The trailer place you're referring to is Northeast Trailer.
	Great place!   I'd hate to give up on my rollers though on the
	EZ Loader.  When I launch all I need to do is push the boat and
	it glides right into the water.  THen again, if they're causing 
	a hogging problem, what good is it ?  It's probably more the
	way it's set up.  I've been planning on taking the boat+trailer 
	down there for an opinion to see what they can suggest.
	
	Like your boat, my motor is totally unsupported, well, not totally -
	I just made a motor bracket to support it somewhat on the trailer,
	but most of the weight is still on the transom.

>    You might want to do a directory on "wood" to see if you can locate
>    them.

	Good idea.  

	Ken

RE: .24
>> Is there a market for a '78 65hp Evinrude in mint mechanical condition?  
>> Any idea what I could get for it ?   It was in storage for 8 years 
>> properly stored] because the previous owner [a friend] had some health 
>> problems.  It doesn't have a whole lot of hours on it, and runs extremely 
>> well.  If I could sell it and turn the $ around into a new 20, I'd be real
>> psyched. What does a new 20 go for ?

Ken,
Not to burst your bubble, but your motor is probably worth $600-800 at best.  
Certainly not enough to turn it around and buy a new 20, unless you throw 
handfuls of your own cash into the deal.  I haven't priced new motors, but I 
believe a new 20 is going to run in the neighborhood of $2K or better.

What is it you're trying to accomplish with the 20?  I know that's the hp
limit on the Quabbin, but are you expecting the 20 to plane (there's that
word again!) the boat?  It's very doubtful that a 20 will plane a 17' boat
with 2 guys and all their fishing gear and coolers.  In which case, at 
displacement speed (non-planing), a decent 10hp will push the boat to within 
a few miles an hour of the speed of the 20hp, at about half the cost.

Also, putting a new 10 or 20 on a 1958 17' wooden boat is going to create
a *very* specialized boat, for which there will be practically no resale
market.  At best you'll have a hard time selling it, and at worst you'll
lose your shirt on the deal.  Putting a new $2000 motor on a $1500 boat does 
not make it a $3500 boat, unfortunately.  If you really want to use the boat 
at the Quabbin, I would suggest doing it as cheaply as possible by putting 
on a less expensive used motor.  You could keep the 65 and remount it when you
want to trade up, and use the 10 or 20 as a kicker for your next boat.  I'm 
sure you could even find someone who would trade you a good 10 or 20 straight 
up for your 65.  Or possibly even you could sell the whole rig as is, and 
invest in a package that's better suited for Quabbin fishing.  You've got
lots of options, but installing a brand new 20 is probably about the least
desirable and cost effective of all of them.

But again, that's just MHO!

Rick

    Good points Rick.  Essentially I agree with them except for one 
    thing.  Often the hogging is caused by years of improper support.
    Assuming that the hog comes out over the winter I agree that the
    hog certainly could be put right back in by improper support.  The
    key of course is that the hull remains properly supported from now
    on.  The catches are that the hull does remain properly supported
    and that the hull having been hogged once may be all to ready to 
    go right back into a hogged condition at the slightest provocation.
    
    I have noticed that the hog in my keel has remained out even though
    the boat has been in the water alot this summer.  When the boat is
    on the trailer which is most of the time the keel block under the
    ex hogged area is backed off so that that section of the keel has no
    support under it.
    
    Your idea of putting a weight over the keel when the boat is out of
    the water and your trying to get the hog out is a good one.  
    The bracing is a good idea too I think.  A 'strongback' type of 
    arrangement might help to keep the hog from coming back.
    
    Sounds like we are talking about pig farms in this string.
    
    Jeff

re:                      <<< Note 1016.33 by GOLF::WILSON >>>

>                 -< More free advice that's worth every cent >-

;-)

Thanks for the info.   I was hoping I could sell it in the neighborhood 
of about $1500, but that was a wild guestimate.   The previous owner told
me he was offered $1500 for the motor by a marina, and I have very good reason
to believe him.  I've known him for over 30 years.  I may call him to put it
to the test though, as in "do they still want it ?" ;-) He gave me a deal 
@ $800 for the whole setup, which is what he paid for the trailer alone in '84. 
With 1500, I figured on about $500 out of pocket for a new 20 (figuring $100 
per hp).   I *may* be able to convince my wife that it's the only way to go ;-)

> What is it you're trying to accomplish with the 20?  

Mostly to get onto Quabbin. Also, part of the reasoning is that I can't open
up the 65 hp at all, too much power with the hook in the hull, the spray, and
all that.  Hazard Marine in Webster felt I was way overpowered too.  So I have 
hp I'm not even using.   I figure I could get reasonable speed with the 20.  
For salt water, I don't plan on going very far out at all, and the 20 would be
ok.  Don't need to go far out or fast for bass and blues.  And I'll do my cod 
fishing on charter boats.

As far as a 10 hp vs a 20, that's good info.  

I intend to try to try and mount my old 6 hp Johnson alongside the 65 hp in a 
test run to see if I can get more than a crawl out of it.  if that works out 
I can do QUabbin.  If I can get at some lakers and salmon, I'd be happy and 
it won't cost me, which would be nice ;-)  

As far as resale, I'm not concerned.   If the boat doesn't fall apart by
the time I get another, and I don't expect it too, it's pretty solid, one
of my brothers would scoff it up in a second.   

IMO it's a perfect Quabbin boat.   Nice canopy and lots of room.  I won't
fly, but it beats the rentals.

re"                      <<< Note 1016.34 by SALEM::GILMAN >>>

> Often the hogging is caused by years of improper support.

That's what I believe occurred with this one, when it was not being used
when the former owner was sick.

>	The
>    key of course is that the hull remains properly supported from now
>    on.  

That would be key.   Northeast Trailer will be able to give me
some good advice I'm sure.  

Ken

    If you can get $1500 for a 1978 65hp;
    1) Go for it!
    2) Stop at the police station and turn yourself in for robbery.  8^)
    
    Just kidding, but $1500 is about twice the going price for that motor,
    especially considering it's a salt water motor.
    
    Keep in mind that either a 10 or a 20 is NOT going to plane that boat.
    You're probably talking about 10-12mph with a 10 horse, or 12-14mph
    with a 20 horse.  And to get that speed you will be running wide open
    throttle.  If you intend to still go out in the ocean, it will be a
    long slow trip, and the 20hp will burn more gas at WOT doing 12-14 mph
    than your old 65hp at 25mph.  This is why you see 2 motors on a lot
    of fishing boats, one for gettin' to the fish and fuel efficiency,
    and one for trolling.  If there's room on your transom for 2 motors,
    mount your old 6 off to the side.  Then you can use the boat in both  
    the ocean and the Quabbin.  I believe you can leave your big motor on 
    the boat at the Quabbin as long as you remove the prop.
    
    Rick

>   I believe you can leave your big motor on 
>   the boat at the Quabbin as long as you remove the prop.
    
	Yes, that's true.  The problem will be finding room to mount
	the other motor.   Then once it's mounted, connecting it to
	the steering linkage - should be doable to rig something up.
	Also would be nice to be able to use the throttle from up
	front.  I picture myself sitting in the back turning the
 	6 hp hand-throttle not being able to see where I'm going,
	and not too comfortable.

	Ken

    
      Ken, for trolling purposes, merely keeping the 6 hp motor pointed
    straight ahead will allow you to steer with the larger motor. My father
    and I did this for years in the ocean and it works great. You can't
    turn real sharp, but of course you don't want to when trolling.
    
    
    				Kenny

    Kenny's method will work, although possibly not too well if they 
    won't let you start the bigger motor for maneuvering around the 
    launch or if the weather kicks up while at the Quabbin.
    
    A company called Ez-Steer makes the steering linkage you need. It's
    nothing more than a couple of big hose clamps and a tierod with heim
    joints on the ends.  But it apparently works.
    
    Remote controls for the smaller motor would generally be mounted below
    the controls for the bigger one.  A set of used controls can be picked
    up cheap, Whitney's in Leominster has stacks of 'em.
    
    Rick

    
    Rick - around the launch the little motor could be steered manually and
    gives perfectly good steering that way. There really is little problem
    even in rather heavy weather. As I said, we did this for years in ocean
    trolling and it took a moderate wind before we could not get enough
    steering control from the large motor.
    
      I'm sure the EZ-Steer will work fine unless the motors had some
    strange layout that exceeded the EZ-Steer's adjustablity. (Not liklely)
    
    				Kenny