Conference vicki::boats

>>> The seal around the propeller leaks. I have an oil film around the boat...
    Q. Can I replace the seal easily or do I have to bring it into a shop?

I have the repair manual that covers your engine and took a glance at it last
night.  I have to warn you up front that I am NOT an outboard mechanic.  Fact is
I have never taken one apart, top or bottom, but I have done my fair share of
work on snowmobiles, gokarts/mini bikes, various lawn and garden equipment, and
cars.

Now, can you replace the seal easily?  That depends on your mechanical ability.
According to my manual it is not as easy as pulling the prop off and replacing
a seal.  It looks as if the whole lower unit has to be disassembled.  I'm sure
someone else in here can verify.  I also noticed that a couple of specialty
tools may be required.  A fly wheel puller, not to be used for the fly wheel
in your case, and some sort of spline socket.  Cant remember the exact name.
Maybe someone in this conference knows what it is and maybe possible work 
arounds if you don't have one.  

If you have mechanical ability and access to  some tools then yes, get a manual
and go to town.  If you don't have the ability or confidence then have a 
mechanic tackle it.

>>> The steering cables are very rusty and the plastic coating is worn. They
    should be replaced. Q. Should I replace them with plastic covered cable? 
    Nylon rope? I live in Littleton MA. Where would be the best place to get 
    the cables?


Once again, same disclaimer as above.  I bought my first boat last year.
Anyway it seems to me that if you were to use nylon rope it would have some
stretch to it.  I'm not so sure if would feel good while turning.  Kind of 
like using elastic bands.  I would stick to the cable.  I don't know a good
place near you to get the cables.  If your willing to travel to Leominster 
let me know and I will give you a place to try.

>>> The battery is an old Sears and will not hold a charge. It's not a marine
    battery.
    Q. What's the difference between a regular battery and a marine battery. 
    Which should I get?

Can't offer much help here.  I don't know what the difference is.  I had the
same problem last year as well.  I bought a diehard marine battery and all is
well.  Are you sure the problem is the battery?  Maybe it's not charging.

Hope this helps,

Wayne
    

    Marine batteries are deep-cycle (as all RV) and have higher ampere-hour
    ratings than conventional batteries.  If you plan to be out in the
    weather or in salt water, replace it with a marine battery.  Sears has
    occasional sales on marine batteries, one of which cost me $59 a couple
    of years ago.
    
    	Happy Sailing
    
    		-mike-

    
    If yoiu are not mechanically inclined, leave the lower unit seal to a
    pro. Reemeber, oil leaking out means water leaking in. 
    
     The plastic coated cable is available at most hardware stores. It is
    usually good for 3-4yrs in Salt water, 10-15 in Fresh water.
    
    The marine batteries are "deep cycle" that means they can be charged
    and then fully discharged for lots of cycles. For boiaters, this is
    good, because lots of boats rundn DC equipement like lights, radios,
    etc off a battery bank while at anchor or fisherman use trolling motors.
    
     With a small motor (it was 28 HP wasn't it?) I susp[ect you do not
    have a charging system, unbless it is a nwer motor. If you have a
    charging system- all you need is a small 12V auto battery. If yopu
    don't have a charging system, a marine (deep cycle) battery is the way
    to go for recreational boating. The starter motor on 28HP outboard is
    probbaly next to nothing.
    
     If the motor is an older 28HP OMC or a gale/Bucaneer- make sure it is
    12V and not 6V starter!
     
    12V on a 6V starter motor gets things spinning quickly as well as
    killing the starter quickly!
    
     Dick
    
    

    Thanks everyone. I got a Sears Marine battery and plastic cables at the
    Home Depot $.17 ft.
    
    Yes, I do lots of work on cars etc. but wasn't sure about the insides
    on the lower unit. I'll borrow a manual when get ready to do it.
    
    A friend of mine can out to look at it and said some of the oil film
    I see on the water is unburned fuel comming out the exhaust :^( 
    
    I think I'll try cleaning the jets and re-adjusting them... The motor
    runs OK, not great. I had 90 lbs compression each. I just replaced two
    coils and condencers. I didn't do the points because I couldn't see
    any timming marks...

    The oil film could very easily be unburned fuel/oil from the 2 stroke
    mix. The equivalent of the white smoke you see coming out of a chainsaw
    if you will. The best way to check is to change the lower unit lube.
    You should do it anyway. If what comes out has white in it or is white
    its been contaminated with water and the prop shaft seal or other lower
    unit gasket(s) are leaking. It should be brown or blue and smell a bit
    sulfurous. The drain plug is probably a large recessed screw just
    above the skeg. The filler plug is 1/2 to 2/3s of the way up the ring
    gear recess....I wouldn't be too terribly concerned about the
    compression as long as its running smoothly since high duty cycle
    2 strokes (like outboards) typically have lower compressions than
    4 strokes. I've owned 2 stroke bikes with stock compressions of 6.6G
    and yours is 5.5 Gauge. (90 psig) 

    Hi gang,
    
    Just a note on the "marine battery" I have read, and understand that
    the only difference between a marine battery and an auto battery is the
    handle they give you to carry it to the boat and a few wing nuts on the
    terminals.
    
    In order for a battery to be a deep cycle, it must say that (ie.
    Marine-Deep Cycle).  It is not a given that a Marine Battery is deep
    cycle and running down a standard type battery, marine or otherwise
    will cause alot more damage to it than a deep cycle model.
    
    
    enjoy the season,
    
    bruce
    
    sorry to be after the fact but I just found this conference

    This is kinda off the subject but it's a question about a battery so
    I'll throw it in here.  Will I do any harm to my Sears Diehard Marine
    battery (deep cycle, biggest size made) if I use it in my diesel
    tractor for awhile?   The other VERY cold day the tractor wouldn't
    start with the 3 year old Ford tractor battery that was in it.  I could
    put it on a charger and it would look like it charged but would die
    immediately (It takes alot of juice to turn over a diesel engine in
    sub-zero temps).  I finally decided to throw in the boat battery to see
    what would happen and it turned over like it was the middle of the
    summer!  I'm tempted to leave it in there for the winter because it has
    so much more cold cranking capacity than even the tractor battery but
    I would hate to ruin it by vibration or cold weather.  It was not cheap!
    I run the tractor each snow storm for at least an hour at a high rpm so
    I'm sure it will get fully recharged and I don't think the vibration
    can be any worse than sitting in the bottom of my flat-bottom wooden
    boat.  Should I be worried?
    Thanks, Wayne

    Wayne,
    	You're probably doing it more good than harm. I currently have one
    of my boat batteries in an old farm truck that doesn't get used too 
    often and it seems to be doing okay.
    	I also have a diesel tractor and have to charge the battery each
    time I want to use it. The battery looks to be a lot smaller than the
    boat battery so I didn't think I could use it but I think I'll look
    again. I still have one battery in the boat doing nothing for the
    remainder of the Winter.
    Regards,
    Paul 

    
      I'm sure the battery will be quite happy at the occasional recharge.
    There is no way the vibration or cold should hurt it, as long as the
    vibration is 'normal' and the battery is fairly charged. (Only very
    discharged batteries freeze)
    
    				Kenny

    More better.
    
    JIm

Re: last few

	My wife's car was in the garage for repairs and my car decided to
	go Koo Koo with it's alarm system over night.  The horn did not sound
	so nobody heard her going off but the headlights went flashing on/off 
	at various intervals all night long.

	Naturally in the am my car battery was deader then the preverbial
	door nail  I was ready to call upon neighbors/friends to help me
	jump start the car when the light bulb over my head went "on" :-)

	I wonder if I took the boat battery and used it to jump start the car?

	Anyway I did and it fired that baby up fine.
	I don't have a battery charger so I'll most likely need to get
	one to re-charge the boat battery for the sping start up.

	I knew It was a good idea to buy that boat ;-)

	-< Tuna Tail >-

    Thanks.  I think I'll leave it in for the winter.  I really like the
    idea of the added cranking time available when I'm trying to bleed
    my frozen injectors in the middle of a blizzard!  
    Wayne 

    re: previous comment on deep cycle batteries and vibration. i believe
    the construction of deep cycle batteries includes fiberglass as grid
    separaters to reduce cell distortion from constant power drain that
    they experience.  that would make the battery more resistant to
    vibration.

    
re:	-< Tuna Tail >-
    
>	I don't have a battery charger so I'll most likely need to get
>	one to re-charge the boat battery for the sping start up.
    
    	I always recharge in the spring to avoid the problem I enevitably
    see at the ramp early in the season. "Hey, can you give me a jump?"
    
    Rick 23_days_til_march!
    
    
    
    

    I will 'second' the opinion that putting the deep cycle in your tractor
    won't hurt it.  I run a deep cycle as a matter of routine in my
    diesel Isuzu Trooper II.  The real question regarding deep cycles
    in starting service is whether they can supply the instantaneous
    amps to start a cold engine.... and you obviously have answered this
    question with the quick start you experienced.
    
    A battery will only last so long... and IMO your far better off doubling
    up in service to get the maximum duty out of the battery.
    
    Jeff
    

re: Rick 23_days_til_march!

	Rick,
		Guess I'll have ta add 1-a-does to my want/need wish list.

	Now only if I can survive going to the fishing expo at the 
	Worcester Centrum tonight/tommorrow night or Sunday morning
	with enough $$$ left over for a battery charger ;-)

	-< Tuna Tail >-

    
    	I don't own a battery charger, but re-charging the battery is
    just part of my re-commissioning routine. First thing I do on
    recommissioning day is drop off the battery at the local garage,
    have them put a slow charge on it, while I perform all those
    other spring tasks.... Hmmmm let's see.... I know I can remember
    what those  things are! :-)
    
    Later,
    
    Rick

	All this talk of boat preperations is getting me anxious.
	Last year the "FishTeaser" got her first spashdown on 10-Apr
	Way Way Way too late for my taste but hope to make up the 
	difference this year.

	Just can't take a guess at what day in March she will find her way
	to saltwater?

	Oh well....it's countdown time!!!!
	-< Tuna Tail >-

    See note 1039 for spring '93 discussion!
    
    Rick (counting the days...)

    	With the temps well below zero this weekend the diesel's battery
    just didn't have what it took. I installed my boat battery in it and it
    works great. Now both boat batteries are earning their keep this
    winter.
    
    Paul

    My Kubota tractor has a compression release knob, does yours?  I have a
    dying battery in the tractor, but if I spin the engine with the
    compression released, then shove it back in, it starts no problem.  
    
    Now back to boating...
    
    Carl

    
    If you're using a deep cycle battery to crank a diesel engine,
    be sure you're protected.  Attempting to draw too much outta
    one of those jewels and they have a bad habit ot exploding.
    
    Fred

    Re .21>
    	My tractor (Yanmar) has a compression release also but the battery
    was really on its last legs. 
    
    BTW - I don't remember if I mentioned it in my previous reply but the
    boat betteries are jell cell. I think this is a good application for
    them because of the infrequent use. Maybe I'll leave them where they
    are and buy new ones for the boat. (If I can come up with the money of
    course.)
    
    Paul

    Deep cycles exploding:  What?  The only reasonable explanation for that
    would be the same as any other lead/acid battery, i.e.: A spark ex-
    ploding hydrogen in/near the top of  the battery.
    
    I have been using a deep cycle on my diesel auto for two years with
    NO problems.
    
    A deep cycle battery is mainly different from a starting battery in
    that the deep cycle has fewer THICKER plates. The starting battery
    has more plates which are thinner.  The chemistry is identical.
    
    (Ok so some mfgrs. have lead/calcium plates)  But my point stands,
    chemically the batteries are essentially identical.
    
    I don't believe the explosion theory has anything to do with deep cycle
    batteries rather than starting batteries.
    
    Jeff
    c

re                       <<< Note 997.24 by SALEM::GILMAN >>>
>                             -< Don't believe it. >-

	Well, try believing this...

    
>    A deep cycle battery is mainly different from a starting battery in
>    that the deep cycle has fewer THICKER plates. The starting battery
>    has more plates which are thinner.  The chemistry is identical.

	Yes, as you say, the  "chemistry"  is the same.  What is 
different is the geometry, as you also say, and I believe you.
From your description the current density at the plates' surface (amps 
per square inch) would be higher for a deep cycle battery delivering
the same current as a starter battery.  For the same reasons, its 
internal resistance is likely to be higher.  If I remember this stuff
right, the plates are therefore more likely to warp (partly due to the
fact that they are thicker) from overheating and short  erzatz  KaBOOM ! 
    
						Q.E.D.  ??

>    I don't believe the explosion theory has anything to do with deep cycle
>    batteries rather than starting batteries.

	b'leeve it now ?
    
>    Jeff
>    c


	Reg

    Any battery doing some heavy work and generating hydrogen gas
    can explode if a spark is present.  With a loose battery 
    cable and continued cranking, the conditions are perfect for
    an explosion.  Just because the battery happened to be a deep
    cycle, doesn't mean that deep cycles explode any easier. *ANY*
    battery could do the same thing.  

re .last two or three 

Hmmmmm, as I remember the chemistry of lead-acid batteries, hydrogen gas 
is only released during overcharging and not during discharge. A 
properly charged battery will not release dangerous amounts of hydrogen 
gas (but it is always best to have plenty of ventilation around the 
batteries just in case). 

A word of caution regarding gel batteries: they (at least Prevailers) 
will be damaged if charged at too high a voltage. The warranty on 
Prevailer gel batteries is void if charged at more than 14.1 volts. Most 
standard regulators are set to around 14.4 volts. 

I've used deep cycle batteries to start my boat's diesel engine for 13 
years with no problems. The cold cranking capacity of our 100 amp-hr 
Prevailer batteries is 700 amps, which is considerably more than than 
the starter motor draws. 

    
      Funny.
    
      I ONLY believe that there is always at least a little hydrogen gas
    around and within a lead/acid battery and that *anything* that causes a
    spark can make it blow up. I will not believe that a lead acid battery
    of any type will blow up without MASSIVE overdraw of current and/or
    some kind of defect inside the battery.
    
    Kenny_who_has_drawn_LOTS_of_current_from_batteries_and_blown_up_his_
      share_but_not_at_the_same_time.

    re .25  believing.
    
    What am I supposed to believe?  I believe your explanation makes sense
    about ASF (amp per sq foot), internal resistance going up and all.
    
    What I didn't believe was that deep cycles are more prone to explosion
    than a starting battery, and I still don't believe that they are more
    prone to explosion.
    
    I have tried beliving it and I still don't.  Now what?
    
    Jeff

    	It gets -real- confusing when you read the side of the Delco
    Voyager (In my opinion a very good deep cycle) and it says:
    
    			Starting/Deep Cycle
    
    	Delco is obviously not worried about someone with a boat or RV
    using their deep cycle battery for starting....
    
    					B.C.

re .25 &     <<< Note 997.29 by SALEM::GILMAN >>>
>                                  -< Belief >-
    
>    What am I supposed to believe?  I believe your explanation makes sense
>    about ASF (amp per sq foot), internal resistance going up and all.

	Well, I s'pose I should have added the usual stuff about
"degrees of differences".  In this conference we tend to take some of
ur specultions to absolutes and extremes sometimes.  I think I was
just trying to say that the differences in geometry lead to 
differences in internal resistance and current density.  To what
extent this may lead to plate buckling  - -  and to what extent that
might lead to internal shorts - -  and to what extent that might lead
in turn to fire or explosion I just  DON'T KNOW !   
    
>    I have tried beliving it and I still don't.  Now what?

	I hope the above helps at least a little, eventually you will 
believe what you will believe - thats OK (-:    I don't plan any field 
experiments to short out lots of batteries in order to accumulate 
empirical data,  a) I can't afford it in $s or risk  b) it wouldn't 
change my behavior anyway. 
    
>    Jeff

	Reg

    Reg.  I think we are all set now.  One thing the production manager
    of Surrette Battery Co. Tilton, N.H. told me is that: "regarding the
    typical over the counter deep cycle battery is no different than a
    starting battery, the manufacturer takes an automotive starting battery
    and slaps a deep cycle label on it and then charges a premium price for
    a deep cycle'.
    
    Sure wouldn't suprise me if the above is the case.
    
    Of course Surrette sells premium priced marine batteries and the over
    the counter 'deep cycle' is direct competition.  But he had no reason
    to lie to me that I could tell, I had already bought one of his
    batteries.
    
    One wonder what the stardards are regarding the design/construction of
    a battery to legally label it deep cycle?  Maybe there are no standards
    regarding that?
    
    It would take far more money and tests than I have the money and
    inclination to make to determine the plate warpage resistance of a deep
    cycle.
    
    I will say that when I worked for Anderson Power Products which
    specialized in commercial fork lift truck electrical parts we did alot
    of tests on deep cycle fork lift truck batteries.  In the two years I
    worked in the research lab I never saw a deep cycle battery fail due to
    plate warpage.  They (as batteries go) are RUGGEDLY made.
    
    Jeff
    

    
    If you happen to see them at the boat show, stop in and they
    will show you the difference.  The other manufacturer you may
    be interested in is Exide. They are less expensive.
    
    Here's the reason, the Surrettes are hand made, Exide has
    automated the process.
    
    In either case you will find a difference in their deep cycle 
    units..
    
    JIm.

    Which is better in your opinion?  Hand made, or automated?  I
    understand a properly cared for Surrette can easily last 10 plus
    years in a boat.  My Surrette is 4 years old and still going strong....
    its still a 'baby'.
    
    Jeff

    
    In my last boat, one of the Surrettes had celebrated a 12th
    birthday.   If an Exide cost 1/2 as much and lasted half as
    long its almost the same.... I have 2 that are 5 yrs. old.
    
    JIm 
    

    I seriously doubt that an Exide would only last half as long.
    
    I had a "no-name" "marine" battery in my sailboat that was subject to
    deep discharging and very infrequent charging (once or twice during the
    boating season and once or twice during the winter. It lasted 7 years
    before I lost a cell last spring. I replaced it with a Sears Die Hard
    true deep cycle, which I believe is made by Exide - I think - one of
    the biggies anyway. 
    
    If my no-name lasted 7 years, I would expect a well made deep cycle
    battery manufacured by one of the major battery companies to do 
    somewhat better.
    
    Bill
    

    
    I soppose I should've put the details down on the battery that 
    blew up on me.
    
    About 6 or 7 years ago, early december. The boat was put away for the 
    winter and the batteries taken out and placed on a rubber mat on top
    of a piece of plywood in the cellar.  Went to start the tractor to
    run the cordwood saw and the battery was dead.  Took one of the 
    105 amp GOULDs from the basement, put the jumpers on the gould first,
    then the positive to the dead one and the ground as your sopposed to 
    - to the frame away from the dead one. I hit the starter button and
    that gould went off like a grenade. The sides went all over the place,
    and the top being thick went up with the cables attached.  So it wasn't
    from a spark, it was putting too little resistance to it.  Probably
    close to a dead short.  Maybe there was a spark at the jumper when the
    current was asked to flow. I don't know, and I ain't about to try it
    again!  My ears were ringing for hours!   My son and I had acid srayed 
    on our legs and boots.  Fortunatly nothing hit us above the knees.
    The pants and socks went into the washing machine, the boots I washed
    off with a baking soda solution.  We were lucky, very lucky.
    
    Fred

    I dare say when you hit the starter you had a SPARK at one of the posts
    on the Gould... even though you did everything right by the book the
    risk of a spark, expecially with jumper cables is there.  The other
    possibility is a loose cell strap internally in the Gould, that could
    have detonated it too.
    
    I see nothing unique to a deep cycle regarding the incident.
     
    You were indeed fortunate you didn't get hit by a piece of the battery or
    get acid in the face/eyes!
    
    I have worked with lead/acid batteries since I was 12, NEVER had a
    battery blow up.  I am careful, but as your experience shows even doing
    it by the book doesn't guarantee things.
    
    Jeff