Conference vicki::boats

    The same thing used tO happen to me on my 83 115hp merc.  I sprayed the
    shaft with wd-40 to keep it free.  If I let the boat set in the slip
    (salt water) for a couple weeks it would get still.
    
    I now keep it all the way in to prevent the grease from getting
    weathered.
    
    The first time it happed to me, I had cast off the lines and was
    backing out of the slip and discovered I had no stearing.  Jammed it
    into forward and tied it back up quick.
    
    Gordon

    I used to have the stiff cable/steering tube arrangement on my
    68 Merc... but I got tired of forking over $ 100 + every few
    years for a new cable which seemed to love siezing in the cable
    sleeve.  There was no effective way to lube it.
    On my 'new' boat which also had siezed cable tube steering when
    I bought it I replaced the system with SS cable run over pullys
    and a capstan behind the steering wheel.  Everything is accessable
    and easy to get at to lube.  NO problems with the system with my
    third year on it.
    
    Jeff

Note 975.2   
>>  I replaced the system with SS cable run over pullys and a capstan
>>  behind the steering wheel.

Jeff,
The old "drum and pully" system that you installed will work fine with 
your 25hp outboard.  But it was never intended for anything more than about
40hp, and is now virtually obsolete in newer boats, even with smaller hp
motors.  This system can be very unsafe, a pulley or cable failure can leave
you with no steering when you least expect it.

I've also experienced a frozen steering cable with the single cable "Teleflex"
style steering on a previous boat, and it was b*tch to get apart.  Since then 
I lube the exposed part of the cable with OMC Triple Guard grease a few times
each sason.  I also try to leave the motor turned so the cable is inside the 
tube when parked so it is not exposed, and I haven't had a problem since.

In any case, I woud never recommend converting a boat with >40hp to the older
style steering system just to alleviate the frozen cable problems.

Rick

    i've had stiff steering ever since i got my boat.  i clean the exposed
    end of the teleflex every season, and try to keep the bar inside the
    tube when parked.  recently i saw an add for the nut that covers the
    end of the steering bar with a grease fitting.  this may be the
    solution to keep that end lubricated.

    RE: .4
    Joe,
    Does your steering system have a tension adjustment on the steering 
    head?  Mine does, it's a plastic nut just below the steering wheel,
    and can be adjusted so that the wheel spins freely or can barely be 
    turned at all.
    
    If everything else checks out OK, is lubed and not binding, you may
    want to check this...
    
    Rick

    re .1
    
    not that i recall.  i'll check it tonight.  part of my problem is that
    the o-ring that keeps water out of the rod end of the steering cable at
    the engine is ripped.  water and salt has probably worked its way up
    the cable.  i'm going to replace the cable this weekend and see how it
    feels then.
    
    thanks for the tip rick.  btw, i should be going in on monday.  if you
    want to come then and play around you're more than welcome to come
    along.  otherwise lets set up some time soon to get some cod for the
    freezer.

    Ok on the problems with the cable and pulley system Rick. I do remember
    a noter reporting a near miss when he backed out and found his steering
    was 'frozen'.  I agree that with a higher hp engine the cable method 
    might be risky because of the larger loads on the system.  With a
    smaller engine and a 'properly' installed steering system I think the
    risk is minimal.  The cable and pully part cannot slip because the SS
    cable is threated right thru the steering drum.  Cable breakage?  I
    can't imagine a load large enough on that steering cable to break it,
    it would 'stall' the steering wheel long before the cable broke if 
    something was rubbing.  Pulleys coming out?  It would still steer and
    the person installing the system would have had to have done a poor
    job of anchoring the pulleys.  With reasonable care, and a smaller 
    outboard < 40 hp I think the system is as safe as the push pull cable
    type, WITH alot less trouble.  You can SEE and get AT everything in
    the system... nothing is hidden.  
    
    Jeff

    Correct me if i'm wrong...
    
    but your talking about a system that has pulleys attached to a 
    bulkhead???
    
    I can speak from experience, i've had a pulley break out of a
    bulkhead, and its one hell of an experience. When it does
    it allows for slack in the cable, and the engine turns in the
    direction of the prop, if your on plane or getting up
    on plane it can literally throw you out of your seat.
    
    It is extremely dangerous..  the cable won't break, i doubt
    the cable will come off the drum, but pulleys are the weak link..
    
    40 hp or less, it might be ok, but no larger.
    
    JIm

RE: .7
>> The cable and pully part cannot slip because the SS cable is threated
>> right thru the steering drum.  Cable breakage?  I can't imagine a load
>> large enough on that steering cable to break it, it would 'stall' the 
>> steering wheel long before the cable broke if something was rubbing.
>> Pulleys coming out?  It would still steer and the person installing the 
>> system would have had to have done a poor job of anchoring the pulleys.

Jeff,
To use the word "cannot" when talking about this type of steering system
is going out on a limb.  Nothing can be made foolproof, because fools are 
so ingenious.  There is lots of stuff that CAN and will break or slip in a 
"cable and drum" steering system, more so than the single cable push/pull
system.  I've personally seen a cable break causing the boat to veer to 
one side. Fortunately there were no other boats around.  And a broken pulley 
*would* cause the boat to lose all steering when the cable goes slack.

I agree, this type of steering has its purpose, and is perfect for some
applications.  My 60 mph (18hp) hydroplane uses it.  But it is not as 
foolproof as you say, and isn't even an option for larger boats or motors. 

Rick

    Ok, your right the Titanic COULD sink.  Mechanical failures can
    occur.  Can't argue with that.  Don't some light aircraft use cable
    and pulley steering systems?  They used to anyway. Certainly
    ultralights do.  Yeah I know, look at their safety record.   If its 
    good enough for a plane where your LIFE in fact depends on reliable
    control why not a small boat?  
    
    I think the answer on whether its appropriate for a boat depends on the
    following conditions:
    
    1. Being used on a small HP engine... <  40 hp.
    
    2. Installed properly with marine components rather than with cobbled
    up parts and using clothesline or some dumb use of parts like that.
    
    3. Frequent inspection for wear, loose screws etc.
    
    In MY (laugh because of emphasis) boat I have used oversize SS cable,
    pulleys with closed faces so a slipping cable 'cannot' go over the face
    of the pulley and get jammed between the side of the pulley and the
    pulley casing.  The windlass drum is manufactured so that the cable
    'cannot' slip on it because the cable is an endless loop through the
    hub of the drum.  The two most likely failures would be an end point
    attachment coming loose or a pulley bracket coming loose from a bulk
    head complete with the pulley.  I have used oversize screws at the
    attachment points.  The attachment point at the engine is with a solid
    OMC made SS plate, complete with safety nuts. Also, I inspect the
    system frequently because it is all easily accessable.  Nothing is run
    under floorboards or in out of sight areas.  Thats part of the beauty
    of the system... its simple and accessable.  Its like anything else
    in life... yes, there is some risk. 
    
    For a large boat, operated by a non mechanical person with the cable
    run in hidden areas, I agree... the system is an accident waiting to
    happen... but under the conditions described in the prior paragraph
    I believe it is acceptably safe.
    
    Jeff 

    
    Dear kind Sir, the note i wrote, a few replies back. I was the
    victim of that surprise.
    
    I notice you talk about oversize screws, might i suggest 
    thru-bolts with a stainless backing plate for the pulley
    mounts (at least)
    
    
 JIm

    Ok with the thru bolts and backing plate.  Good idea I think, but in
    some cases unnecessary.
    
    Jeff

    re: aircraft cable
    
    In another life I was an aricraft mechanic on light planes.
    They all used cable and this was inspected at least once a year or
    every 100 hrs of operation.  Particular attention was paid to the areas
    around the pulleys.  Check with a rag and run the cable back and forth,
    any snags replace the cable.  Cable gets worn by the pulleys and is
    very difficult to see with the naked eye.
    
    Also the cable was attached to the "stick" via a chain and sproket
    arangement.  The tension was adjusted according to specification with a
    tensionometer and the turnbuckles safety wired to prevent loosening.
    
    The system also had bellcranks, counter weights, and other devices to
    add mechanical advantage moving the controls against the wind.
    
    In 6+ years of working on some very old (frabric) planes we only saw
    one broken cable, but replaced many worn ones.  Preventative
    maintenance is very important in this area.
    
    Gordon
    

    
    Just for the record,Rick,the push-pull cables do break.The teleflex
    on my boat quit well down the casing.
    
    Can you say 360's?
    
    Fortunately we were on the usual lake,and after shutting down we 
    restarted and I steered back while sitting on the transom and 
    turned the motor via the cover and my hands.Also fortunately
    it is only a 16 footer with 60hp.And it was early and calm.
    
    
    Keith
    

    ..getting back to the orginal note: Look to see if there's a white
    nylon bushing that fits between the inner and outer tubes of the
    teleflex rod that attaches to your outboard. If there is, apply heat (I
    actually used to use a propane torch) to the rod that moves in/out near
    the bushing. What this will do is soften the nylon bushing.  Have
    someone at the wheel and move the motor back and forth while the
    bushing and telescope is hot/soft (head has been removed). What this
    will do is ensure there's adequate clearance as the bushing cools and
    hardens again.
    
    I had a 1970 Envinrude that experienced the exact same symptoms. I
    tried everything including all the lubricants. Stumbled across this
    technique quite by accident while trying to take the telescope apart.
    After that, I repeated the heat/move ritual every spring.

    Forgot to mention that there's normally a black rubber collar where the
    telescoping part exits the outer tube. Don't apply heat to this. I used
    to slide mine off several inches.

    78 Merc 175 O/B V6
                                                                    
    Problem is a frozen steering rod at the engine.  Same as mentioned in
    the base note.  I disconnected the steering cable (aluminum nut that
    holds the cable to the rod housing on the right side).  I also
    disconnected the linkage rod that goes from the end of the frozen rod
    (on the left side) to the center of the engine.  What do I do next?
    The engine is free, and the steering cable will move, but the rod that
    does the steering is still stuck all the way in (retracted).
    
    The steering cable will only come out so far if I turn the wheel, but
    there is no clearance to have it come out all the way.  Should I remove
    the steering cable out of the housing (if I can find a way).  How do I
    get the frozen rod un-frozen?  Is this a D-I-Y job or should I bring it
    in for service?
    
    The Merc manual gives no information on the steering assenbly.
    
    Any help is greatly appreciated...  thanks, Mark 

	Mark,

 I just did this with a friend this weekend and you will need a lot of
 Penetrating oil (actually the best stuff you can buy), tools, wire brush,
 wire wheel, grease, patience ;-), etc......

	The place that my friend's froze, was right under the nut that holds
 the outer sheeting of the cable to the pivot shaft (shaft that the motor
 pivots on). Connect the L steering brk. (from end of cable to motor),
 undo the nut that hold the cable, spray wd40 (lots) under the nut, the end,
 etc. where ever you can, and use the motor to work the cable back an fort.

	Once you get the cable to loosen up a bit, use brush/wire wheel to
 clean the rust and repeat until free. Then remove the cable and grease so
 that it won't happen again.

	It took us approx 3 to 4 hrs, but in the end it worked like new.
 That was on a Merc 90 trim/tilt, on the boat in the water. Would have been
 easier on the trailer though ;-)......

	Norm

    Let me see if I understand...  Reconnect the linkage from the cable to
    the engine so I can use the engine weight to move the cable in/out?
    
    I have the nut off that connects the cable to the shaft.  I am trying
    to picture what this cable looks like inside the shaft.  I think there
    are two diameter rods in there, because when I turn the steering wheel
    a smaller diameter rod (part of the cable) works its way out of the
    housing pivot/shaft.  The other end (left side) which is thicker does
    not move.  I imagine that under normal operation the rod I see coming
    out must "push" to the left the steering rod (thicker one) out of the
    housing. But, is this all one piece connected to each other (the two
    rods) and part of the entire steering cable?   And if so, how does the
    entire cable with rods come out of the pivot shaft?  Does it just slide
    out the right side?  I tried taping the left side lightly with a small
    hammer but it was not going anywhere.  Also a big concern, If all of 
    this does come out of the pivot shaft, does this somehow hold the
    engine onto the pivot shaft and will the engine fall off if I pull this
    steering cable off (seems like a stupid question, but I'll feel  really
    stupid if I got it out and the engine fell off)!!!
    
    Thanks!  Mark

I had a simular problem las year.  The steering shaft on the engine (1" or 3/4 inch
was stuck.  I tried WD40 and moving the steering wheel (helm) and ended up breaking
a cable.  Fortunitly I was trading in the boat so I didn't have to deal with it.  

However, the mechanic that came down to check out the boat simply took his foot and
pushed on the lower unit and rocked back and forth.  The engine started to turn and
the frozen piston freed up.  He told me this usually works and in the future don't
store the engine hard over to one side.  leave it in the middle.

He put a lot of force on the lower unit -- much more that I would have dared to do 
but worked.

Gordon

    Well I wish I had left the aluminum nut that holds the cable in place
    alone.  This nut is now stripped and will not thread back on without
    getting all out of alignment.
    
    In order to replace the nut it appears that there is a thick c-clip
    crimped on there.  Looks like I would need to remove the clip and also
    remove the entire end of the cable (piston and all) out of there.
    
    I still have not figured out how the cable comes out of the pivot
    housing, and I would still like to be sure the engine will not fall
    off when I take it out..
    
    thanks, Mark

	Mark,

 Let's see if I can explain this over the tube. The pivot shaft holds the
 engine/transom bracket together with a 1" nut at the ends. Don't undo those.

	From what I could see/remember, the cable has the outside sheating
 (sp?), than the inner shaft, and than the end that slides inside the pivot
 shaft/connects to the engine. Where the rust had collected on my friend's
 cable was below the cable retaining nut that holds the cable to the pivot
 shaft (where the inner cable slides inside the outter sheating).

	You need to pour the wd-40/penetrating oil and brush the rust off
 where the inner cable goes in the outter sheating, use the engine's weight
 to sort a help in forcing the issue some. You'll probably have to disconnect
 the steering wheel (we did) too.

	Once you removed some rust, the cable will free some to give you
 more room to continue removing more rust until it's free. Then you'll have
 to remove the cable ass'y (not the pivot shaft) to polish and grease.

	It's a long and slow process but may end up saving you ~~ $150.00 for
 a new cable........

	Norm



	(Below crude picture ;-) )


		cable retaining nut
		----------------------
          outter sheating	  pivot shaft
	---------------	rust	--------------------
	-----------------------------		-----------------
	inner cable				 steering shaft to engine
	-----------------------------		-------------------
	---------------	rust	---------------------
		-----------------------

    I think we have two different problems.  It does not sound like you
    actually removed the steering cable all the way out of the shaft.
    
    I need to replace the entire cable or at least get the cable all the
    way out of the pivot shaft because of my stripped retaining nut which
    is integrated with the steering cable.
    
    When I look at the pictures of a new steering cable it all appears to
    be one piece.  The long cable from steering wheel to engine. At the
    engine end the cable is integrated with two shafts inside each other. 
    The larger shaft is the part that the steering linkage is connected
    too, and this is the part on the left side of the pivot shaft.  The
    inner shaft you do not see.  
    
    My stuck/rusted/frozed part is the larger outer shaft, and it is frozen 
    on the left side where it extracts/retracts in and out of the pivot
    shaft.  
    
    Currently everything is disconnected (linkage, stripped retaining nut).
    I think I need to keep oiling the left side outer shaft so that I can
    eventually hit it with a hammer or something and pull it completely out
    of the pivot shaft (again what is coming out is the entire steering
    cable assembly which includes the two shafts).  Problem is that there
    is not enough clearance to pull this out.  So the engine needs to be
    pulled back away from the boat.  So, I need to figure out how to
    disconnect the pivot shaft so I can pull the engine and shaft back
    about 6" to give me enough clearance to tap/pull the steering cable all
    the way out of the pivot shaft.  
    
    If I can do this myself (which I hope I can) I will save about $200.
    Since I can buy a new cable for around $115 at Boat U.S.  A mechanic
    will want about $180 for the part plus 2 to 3 hours labor.
    
    Please keep the input coming.  I probably will not try this until
    Saturday and I want to get all the feedback that I can...
    
    Thanks!  Mark

    After looking at the engine again last nite I realize that the only way
    to get the steering cable to slide out of the pivot tube is to un-bolt
    the engine from the transom and back the engine up 6" to provide
    clearance.  The steering cable will hit the side transom area panel
    unless the engine is backed away.  
    
    The owners manual shows nothing about removing the engine.  It appears
    that there a 4 bolts almost parallel to each other just below the pivot
    tube.  These 4 bolts go thru the transom and appear to be the only
    bolts holding the engine on.  I guess there is nothing securing the
    lower part of the engine to the transom.
    
    This engine is huge and heavy.  I am not sure if I am going to do this
    but here is an idea...  If I remove the 4 bolts the engine will fall
    off.  There is nothing holding the engine to the transom besides these
    bolts.  So I cannot slide the engine along the transom to the left as
    someone had suggested as a possible approach.
    
    The 4 bolts are about 6" long.  I was thinking of removing the 2 outer
    bolts and replace them with 12" long bolts, then remove the 2 inner
    bolts, and use the 12" outer bolts to slowly backoff the engine away
    from the transom until I have clearance to pound the cable out.
    I will place a block of wood at the bottom of the engine to help
    support the weight.  Does anyone think this might work or not.  I am
    concerned about stressing or warping the outer bolt holes.
    
    The alternative is to just bring it in and have the pros with the tools
    do the job.  This would cost about $300 vs about $125 if I do it.  But,
    if I screw something up it will not be worth it.  The Mrs. says to just
    bring it in and stop concerning myself with it.  Even though she thinks
    it is ridiculous to spend $300 for a repair on a boat we use for about
    6 hours a season...
    
    Geeeesh...  Thanks!  Mark
    
    
    
    
    

	Just thought of something, if you really need to take it off,
 you could rent a cherry picker (lift) for about $50.00 and use it to
 support the engine, or if you have a garage use a come-along (or what ever
 they're called??) hanging from the rafters.

	IMHO, I would'nt try to support the engine with longer bolts from
 the transom. It would probably damage one or the other or both.......

	$175.00 is still better than $300.00....

	Norm

    
    
            I say shop around. 
    
    You should be able to get the whole steering cable replaced (from the
    steering wheel to the motor) for UNDER $200. The cable itself should 
    cost between $75 and $125 depending on the length you need. This is a
    very EASY job for any marina.
    
    You could free it this year and then have to go through it again next
    year.

    I hope your right about the price.  The $300 was based on a discussion
    with JP at Mobile Marine in Boxboro.  He said cable is about $180 plus
    2 to 3 hours labor (@ $50/hour).
                                                                 
    Since I do not need a mobile service I have an appt on Monday with a local
    marina.  They charge $40/hour and hopefully it will be a fast job for
    them...
    
    Thanks for all the advice and help!  Mark