Conference vicki::boats

re .0:

Advice? Sure. I'd use only USCG approved cable. Jamestown Distributors 
(800-423-0030) has 2/0 cable in 25' and 50' lengths for less than $3 per
foot (1991 price). 

Use high quality terminals. I remember seeing some in the Ample Power 
catalog. These were screwed together compression fittings, not crimped 
fittings. Maybe $10 to $15 each. 

Consider using a fuse at the battery. Again Ample Power has them in 
ratings up to 500A or so. 

    I suggest you SOLDER the lugs to the battery cables.  Stranded cable
    will tend to wick moisture into it and cause corrosion and high
    resistance connections.  You can solder the connections using a propane
    torch and rosin core solder, OR you can crimp AND solder the
    connections.... that would be ideal, to do both.  If the boat is to
    be used on salt water soldering vs. crimping is especially important.
    Can't remember the name, but a marine wiring book I read recently gave
    the above advice.  Soldering is also preferable for ANY wiring you do
    on your boat.  The fuse is a good idea.

re .2:

High quality cable should be tinned, so moisture wicking is less of a 
problem. 

re soldering:

Yes, but ..... a LOT of heat is needed to get a very heavy wire hot
enough to melt solder. By the time it is hot enough, you probably have
melted the insulation. That's what happened the one time I tried it 
(on a smaller gauge cable).

    Regarding soldering>
    	How about a heatsink? Perhaps one could be fashioned out of
    flattened copper tubing. Drill hole for a snug fit on the tinned 
    wire. After soldering cut off the heatsink. I don't know if it would
    eliminate the insulation burn but it may reduce it considerably.
    
    			Heatsink
                            v
    			    - 
    			   | |
          Insulation       | |     Lug
               v           | |      v
    	   -------------   | |   -----
    	   \  	        |--| |--|     \
            \           |  | |  |      \
             \          |  | |  |       \
              \         |--| |--|        \
                --------   | | ^ ---------
                           | | |
                           | |  \___Wire
    			    -  
                                    

    I made up similar cables not long ago. I crimped the lug on and 
    used a blow torch to solder the lug on. You need to do both, this
    is not  optional. After soldering use "liquid lectric tape"
    on the exposed areas to seal it off.
    
    I believe Alan might be referring to a thermal breaker.
    Its a good idea.
    
    With the possibility of the cable lying in the bilge, i would suggest
    the use of tie wraps with screw eyes, you could screw the ties to 
    stringers and keep it out or the muck. Oil  etc.  will affect the
    insulation, and in time degrade the cable.
    
    
    JIm./

    Paul,  if you want I have different sizes of "shrink tape" which I
    could send you some of.  This stuff wraps around the cable like
    electrical tape but when you hit it with a heat gun, it seals upon
    itself and forms an impenetrable (sp?) mass that also acts as a strain
    relief.  Might be overkill versus liquid tape.  Btw, I made 20 foot
    long jumper cables out of welding cable.  They work great but I don't
    have to worry about bilge water with them.
    Wayne

    Thanks Jim, Wayne,
    	I have some liquid lecric tape and had planned on using it
    liberally on most of the connections. I was also considering shrink 
    tubing or tape to cover any burnt insulation. Wayne, if I can't get
    some while I'm ordering the cable I'll take you up on your offer.
    	Alan gave me the number for Ample power (I posted this in SAILING 
    as well) so I'll call them and get a description of the compression 
    lugs mentioned.
    	The cost is mounting.Prices quoted in the SAILING conference are:
    			Cable (50' roll?)  	$ 4.99/ft x 50 = $249.50
    			Compression lugs	$ 7.99 ea x 4  = $ 31.96
    			Fuse			$42.00           $ 42.00
    			Shipping etc		?                     ?
    								---------
    								    WOW

re -.1:

Ample Power sells cable by the foot, Jamestown only by the roll (or so 
say their catalogs).

The Ample Power compression fittings look very tidy and strong. I'd use
'em and not bother with the mess of soldering. Shrink tubing in various
diameters is available from Ample Power and many others. My battery to
starter motor cables are untinned with crimped-only terminals (Belden
truck cables from a local auto parts store) protected by shrink tubing.
They're in excellent condition after ten years. When/if they fail or I 
become a liveaboard boat person, I'll replace them with tinned cable and 
compression fittings.

    .3
    If the insulation melts near the terminal end as it will if you use
    enough heat then you place heat shrink over the damaged area of the
    insulation.  Obviously you must put the heat shrink on FIRST before
    soldering the terminal.
    
    Jeff

    I used high quality welding cable for my battery extension.  I paid
    about 1.10 per foot for # 2 cable with 'cold flex' insulation.  I
    don't know as its CG approved but the application is not THAT critical
    if carefully installed and secured.... especially if one uses a
    fuse at the batt.  Your price is a premium price for 'mil spec.'
    cable.  Isn't that overkill?
    
    Jeff

    Jeff, the beauty of shrink tape versus shrink tubing as that you put it
    on after all your connections are made and soldered.
    Wayne

    I would offer a  third  vote for soldering the lugs.  I
    have done this for #4 without problems.  Put the shrink on the wire
    first.  Crimp the terminal.  I used vise grips.  Solder it with a
    torch.  Hold the lug up and heat the side away from the wire.  Feed the
    solder to the wire lug junction.  Don't over do the solder and you can
    remove the torch before all the solder is applied.   Let cool. then
    slide the shrink tubing up and shrink it.  
    
    
    KC
    

    Make sure you keep the unheated heatshrink away from the hot cable as
    you solder the lugs, otherwise you will shrink the tubing in the wrong
    place.  The heat tape is a good idea.  It avoids the above problem of
    tubing shrinking in the wrong place.  This can happen in confined
    quarters where there is little room to push the shrink tubing back
    far enough on the cable before soldering lugs.
    
    Jeff

re last few:

The cable in question is #00 (2/0), which is significantly larger than 
either #2 or #4 (Jamestown lists the diameter of their #00 cable as
0.590 inch and the diameter of #4 as 0.375 inch). You're talking about a 
substantial amount of copper and heat. 

In some note or other, it was pointed out by a DEC reliability engineer
that a properly made crimp connection is more reliable than a soldered
connection. 

    Yes, perhaps that is true under lab conditions.  Can you make a
    'properly crimped connection'?  Maybe you can.  But even IF you
    can the crimp does not solve the salt water corrosion problem with
    corrosion creeping by capillary action up the stranded cable.
    A soldered connection physically blocks the wicking action.
    The DEC reliabilty eng. I will bet has little experience with
    connections subjected to marine use.
    
    Jeff

    and even when soldered  the dam crud creeps up the cable...
    
    JIm

    	Well I certainly appreciate all the input. I've contacted both
    Ample Power and Jamestown for catalogues. What I think I'll do is 
    put the batteries in the old location until I get the catalogues
    and make my final decision.
    Thanks Again,
    Paul

re .15:

Sorry, wrong. A soldered connection does NOT prevent wicking of moisture 
under the insulation. That is why tinned wire is recommended. Truly 
water and vaporproof connections are virtually impossible. I certainly
cannot make a properly crimped connection on battery cables. But I
suspect that Belden (and any other vendor of cables with
factory-installed crimped connectors) can. As I pointed out, my Belden
factory-made cables are in quite good condition after ten years. 

    As the previous notes says it is nearly inpossible to make a good crimp
    connection.  The main reason is the size.  The tool used by a cable mfg
    is a large hydraulic tool.  To properly make a crimp connection on
    large wire requires tonnes of pressure.  So when you make connection in
    your backyard the crimp just holds it together until you solder it.
    If you have the right tools a crimp connection works if not then solder
    it.
    
    
    KC
    
    

    Paul,  I have something else that I can also offer you.  I have a bunch
    of welding cable ground lugs that are secured to the end of the cable
    with a large bolt that really bites into the cable.  I then bought
    battery cable ends that I bolted to the ground lugs.  You can tin the
    wire ends real well prior to bolting on the ground lug and then cover
    it all with shrink tape.  I use this set-up on my tractor and I've not
    had any problems.
    Wayne

    I bet that the contention 'crimped connections are more reliable' is 
    based on statistical analysis of thousands of crimped vs soldered
    connections.  In the boaters case we are talking a half dozen or so
    hand soldered connections.  If you know how solder properly you 
    aren't going to wind up with a cold joint.  So statistical analysis
    in the individual case doesn't matter.
    Also... doing a 'proper' cable ending 'tape' job is essential to
    minimizing corrosion wicking. It also helps to keep the cables
    out of bilge water.
    
    Jeff

    re .21   Well, so much for your betting assumptions....
    remember, the smart money was on Goliath.
    
    	maybe you should research the subject before wandering off on
    projections from your unfounded assumptions - maybe not, doesn't matter.
    
    	Soldering is surface alloying     Crimping is cold welding
    Crunching a connector on with vice-grips is neither.   Nothing wicks
    up, past, or through a cable in a properly applied crimp, there is no
    space between the strands - there are no strands, they are one,,, Yawn.
    
    	OK, I don't have the tools either, but in the interests of the base
    noter I did drop in at my local friendly truck repair place today and
    gleaned the following;   2 gauge is $1.85 a foot,  2/0 gauge is $3.85 a
    foot, there doesn't seem to be a minimum length requirement. 
    Terminals(OK, "connectors") are "about a buck, it depends on exactly
    which ones you want".   Crimping with the incredibly huge, ugly,
    powerful tool is free;  unlike cold fusion it works well everywhere,
    every day.  Use heat shrink tubing or liquid lectric tape to seal out
    moisure above the crimp, etc., especially if you have stripped the 
    insulation back too far.
    
    	The base noter might be able to get a slightly better price at a
    NAPA outlet, though they are less likely to be able to do the crimping.
    
    	Reg
    
    PS	a well known failure mode of soldered connections is fractures in
    the wire, typically about one wire diameter from where the solder
    wicking stopped, i.e. about here
    			      |  v
    ==========================++++++++++++++++++++Connector
    stranded		      solder wicked
    			     >|  |<
    			one times bundle diameter
    
    
    I know, it can be avoided with proper strain relief.

    .22  Are you saying that the analysis of crimped vs. soldered
    connections is NOT based on the statistical analysis of many 
    connections of each type?  How else would an engineer tell which
    was more reliable.  Whats with the smart remark about my 'wandering
    off on unfounded assumptions'.  How do YOU know what my background is
    just as I don't know what yours is?  I used to work in an eng. lab
    which tested fork lift truck cable (various sizes/styles of cable)
    on soldered vs. crimped connections.  (Anderson Power Products) I
    do not claim to know everything... far from it... but my remarks 
    are hardly off the cuff and uninformed.
    I have no problem with the information you present, but you might
    try not being so aloof about it.
    
    That WAS news to me about the one wire dia. soldering failures.  I
    would ASSUME that would tend to be a problem with cable which was
    flexed alot... say in welding service.  Fixed in a boat I don't think
    the cable would move much... especially near a soldered or cimped lug.
    Although I suppose engine vibration could cause enough motion to
    fatigue the cable some.
    
    I do think that hairs are starting to get split on the subject here. 
    The base noter wanted an answer as to which is best.  It looks to me
    as if either a properly soldered or crimped connection will do the job
    for him.  
    
    Jeff
    

    What do you do to prevent corrosion at the battery terminals
    themselves.  grease, corrosion washers, ??.
    
    Gordon

    There are lots of ways... but I am not sure which works BEST.  I use
    thick grease.... it makes a mess but it works if you occasionally 
    renew the grease.  I havn't tried commercial corrosion preventers
    because the grease works.  Some of the commercial products are sprays.
    
    Jeff

    Vasoline works and is none staining should you ocassionally get it on
    something. You can use it in connectors to seal out moisture too.
    SkiDoo recommends this in their snowmobile owners manual for all the
    mate-n-lock connectors. I've started using it on my trailers to reduce
    corrosion with the light connections that just push in.
    
    Wayne

    Epoxy a penny to the battery top near the positive terminal.  When it 
    dissapears, it will cost you only one cent to replace(plus glue).
    
    Don

    Thanks again.
    
    	Re .20>
    		Wayne, I'll contact you off line about the connectors.
    
    	Re .22> 
    		Reg, I hadn't thought about a truck repair shop. I'll call a
    few around here and see what they can do.                  

re                    <<< Note 963.28 by DNEAST::OKERHOLM_PAU >>>
    
>    	Re .22> 
>    		Reg, I hadn't thought about a truck repair shop. I'll call a
>    few around here and see what they can do.                  

	Yes, if you happen to pass by the sort of places that sell 
chassis cabs its worth dropping in and picking their brains.  They'll
almost certainly be used to relocating batteries to almost anywhere 
that custom bodies require.  BTW, that price info was from Tucks in 
Hudson Mass., they put all kinds of custom trucks together.
(OK, this ain't the Tucks bashing note, they are reputed to be not the 
cheapest place around - I seem to have had good luck with them though)

	Here's the cable gauge recommmendations (as a function of 
length) from my PCM manual, FWIW;

	Up to 3' 6"	#4    Gauge
	3' 6" to  6'	#2    Gauge
	6' to 7' 6"	#1    Gauge
	7' 6" to 9' 6"	#0    Gauge
	9' 6" to 12'	#00   Gauge
	12' to 15'	#000  Gauge
	15' to 19'	#0000 Gauge x2


	My guesses and assumptions....   

	i)	#00 = 2/0,  #000 = 3/0, etc.

	ii)	These recommendations assume that both -'ve AND +'ve
		cables are run these distances, unlike a car or truck,
		you can't just run the live wire to the starter and a
		short ground to chassis ground. 

	BTW, this table applies to all engine sizes, 302, 305, 350, 
351, 454 & 460  - -  though they DO recomend larger batteries for the 
bigger blocks.


	Reg