Conference vicki::boats

    This very topic was just discussed in note 942.  
    
    Since 942 was originally intended for diesels, I'll probably
    move the gasoline related replies over here when I get a chance.
    
    Rick

re                         <<< Note 946.0 by MSEE::YOUNG >>>
>                         -< WHY NOT FUEL INJECTION!! >-
    
>            Does anyone have any input on why you don't see many
>    I/O's that are fule injected. Is there a mechanical reason for
>    why boat I/O's and inboards don't go with fuel injection accross
>    the board??

	The standard excuse is that  "the marine market",  presumed to
be us, when faced with a choice between:

a)	something that breaks often but is easy to fix well enough to
	get back to port.

b)	something that is very unlikely to break in 3 or 4 times the 
	average useable life of the boat (or the owner, whichever
	comes first) but is either very difficult or very expensive to 
	fix.

	they (we) will favor a) above.  The scenario usually quoted is 
an extreme case, i.e. having to bring a 16ft. bow rider in from 100
miles off-shore in 25ft seas with winds of 70kts.  The fuel or ignition 
system quits and with only a couple of fish hooks and a pocket knife 
its easier to fix a carb, right ?  right !  Q.E.D. etc.

>            Lets get into this one boys!!
				    ^^^^^
				      |
		errrrrr, can the  "g*rls"  also discuss this topic ?    
    
    
>    					thanks,
>    						bob..

	Reg

    Moved by mod...
================================================================================
Note 942.8                    2 or 4 cycle Diesels?                      8 of 20
GOLF::WILSON "Wipe my lips, no more sushi"           36 lines  24-JAN-1992 12:18
                            -< Mercury has it now? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This month's issue (January) of BOATING magazine has an extensive
    article on a new fuel injected outboard that Mercury is working
    on.  The engine is still experimental and BOATING was not allowed
    to divulge a lot of the technical details. 
    
    One of the problems with conventional 2 stroke gas motors is that 
    for a period of time both the intake and exhaust ports are exposed.
    Therefore, some of the fresh fuel charge is forced right out the 
    exhaust port without ever being burned. This causes problems with 
    both fuel consumption and emissions.
    
    The fuel delivery system of Mercury's new outboard would work much 
    like a 2 stroke diesel.  The fuel mixture would no longer circulate 
    through the crankcase, only the air would.  Fuel would be injected 
    directly into the cylinders under extremely high pressure, at about 
    the same time the spark is applied. At this time, the intake and 
    exhaust ports would both be closed, preventing the loss of unburned 
    fuel out the exhaust port.
    
    One of the major problems to be overcome is how to lubricate the 
    crankcase, since the gas/oil mix that normally lubes the crank
    would be absent. I don't have the article here, but as I remember, 
    the details of the oiling system was one of the things Mercury is 
    not revealing.
    
    Mercury actually has running versions of this motor being tested,
    and BOATING said that they work just great.  Initially (and maybe 
    forever) this new fuel injection system will only be used in larger 
    "hp" and "$$$" applications, since the cost of the high pressure 
    fuel injection system and the oiling system would not be cost 
    effective for your small kicker.  Conventional 4 cycle motors may 
    take over the smaller engine market when emissions standards come 
    into being (and marine emissions standards apparently ARE in our 
    future).
    
    Rick

    moved by mod...
================================================================================
Note 942.9                    2 or 4 cycle Diesels?                      9 of 20
CSLALL::BORZUMATO                                    13 lines  24-JAN-1992 12:28
                                  -< why not >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    No to stray, but i've wondered why inboards (gas) have not been
    fuel injected?
    
    My chryslers have electronic ignition, (yes i carry a spare 
    module) but the headaches are much less. My other boat had
    a chrysler but with conv. ignition, and of course the same
    headaches as the others.
    
    If you've seen any notes from me downing Mercruiser, Crusaders
    there may have been a reason...
    
    JIm. 

    moved by mod...
================================================================================
Note 942.10                   2 or 4 cycle Diesels?                     10 of 20
GOLF::WILSON "Wipe my lips, no more sushi"           27 lines  24-JAN-1992 12:59
                        -< They'll be here eventually >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Jim,
    The two primary reasons why you don't see fuel injected
    inboards are simplicity and cost.  Mercruiser came out with
    one a few years ago, based on the Corvette motor.  It doesn't
    seem to have caught on yet.
    
    Most people can muck around with a carburetor to the point of
    getting the motor running to get back to shore.  Short of Mr.
    Goodwrench, not many people can tinker with an electronic fuel
    injection system when it goes on the fritz.  Fuel injection is
    also *generally* more sensitive to dirt, water, and corrosion
    in the fuel that you see in a marine environment than conventional 
    carbs.
    
    I think that eventually you will see fuel injected inboards come 
    into use, as people get used to the idea. Also, when the marine
    industry is hit with emissions standards, fuel injection (and
    electronic engine management) will be a good way to clean up 
    their act without getting bogged down with catalytic converters 
    etc.  It won't come free though - hardest hit will be your wallet
    and your ability to work on your own boat.  Reliabilty will 
    probably also take a hit, at least initially. Remember what pieces 
    of *crap* the mid-70's cars were, when they were first required to 
    meet emissions standards?  Hopefully the marine industry will take 
    a lesson and avoid the same mistakes.
    
    Rick

    moved by mod...
================================================================================
Note 942.11                   2 or 4 cycle Diesels?                     11 of 20
TOOK::SWIST "Jim Swist LKG2-2/T2 DTN 226-7102"       16 lines  24-JAN-1992 13:17
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    re: lubrication of fuel injected outboards.
    
    Most bigger outboards have oil injection technology now.  It would seem
    a simple matter to just inject the oil into the crankcase instead of
    into the fuel supply. 
    
    
    re: reliability of fuel injection etc.   
    
    We had the same argument about breakerless ignition some time back.
    Established (old) technology does not mean more reliable technology.  I
    would say that electronic ignition and fuel injection (where
    applicable) are two reasons why today's auto engines are more reliable
    than they used to be.   Yes if marine engine makers (rather,
    "marinizers") re-invent these wheels, we'll have a period of break-in
    blues, but all they have to do borrow from the auto industry.

    moved by mod...
================================================================================
Note 942.12                   2 or 4 cycle Diesels?                     12 of 20
GOLF::WILSON "Wipe my lips, no more sushi"           34 lines  24-JAN-1992 13:57
                           -< I love this stuff... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: >It would seem a simple matter to just inject the oil into the 
    >crankcase instead of into the fuel supply. 
    
Good theory, but I think Merc had a problem with it.  The problem
is that with a conventional 2 stroke, the oil is in suspension
with the fuel, and stays in a mist or semi-atomized form and is
then drawn into the cylinder.  If you were to inject oil alone 
into the crankcase, it would tend to cling to the surfaces and 
then run down and collect in the bottom of the crankcase. Mercury
*DOES* have a solution to it, they just weren't giving it away in
the article. I would suspect it might be a conventional oil pump
and reservoir, which would require oil changes.  Possibly a new,
extremely light viscosity oil would also do the trick.

RE: >Established (old) technology does not mean more reliable technology.  I
    >would say that electronic ignition and fuel injection (where
    >applicable) are two reasons why today's auto engines are more reliable
    >than they used to be.

Require less maintenance and run better absolutely. More reliable I'm not 
so sure.  The problem is, when fuel injection and electronic ignition
break, the average Joe is lost, which is a bad situation 20 miles offshore.
And nothing can be made 100% reliable.  I'm convinced that you'll see 
inboard fuel injection eventually, but it'll catch on slowly.  Heck, I 
don't know if they've switched yet, but just a couple years ago the OMC 
Cobra still had conventional points and condenser ignition.  They said
electronic ignition was too unreliable.  Then Yamaha came along and blew 
that theory to hell, introducing a distributor-less small block Chevy based 
I/O.  I guess it sums up the difference between being stuck with conventional
thinking, and being willing to try something new.  I think you'll see OMC
and Merc push fuel injected inboards in a big way, but probably not til
Yamaha comes out with one and proves it can work.

Rick

    moved by mod...
================================================================================
Note 942.13                   2 or 4 cycle Diesels?                     13 of 20
CSLALL::JEGREEN "Cuz I luv that [icy] dirty water"   12 lines  24-JAN-1992 16:35
                         -< F/I not a factory option >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Re -.2
    
    Mercruiser is the builder of the Corvette LT-5 fuel injected 350 engine.
    As a promotional gag they put an LT-5 in a Baja 21' and were able to run 
    it up to 80+ mph. Mercruiser used an LT-5 Corvette as tow vehicle as well.
    I don't beleive that the LT-5 was ever available as an option for a
    boat though. The option package for the Corvette [King of the Hill] was 
    $20K above the base sticker of $32K. Doesn't seem likely you'd find an 
    LT-5 option for boats. I think the magazine said as nice as it was they 
    preferred the 502 cid Magnum bigblock, which cost substantially less too.
                                  
    ~jeff_who_is_partial_towards_fiberglass_land_yatchs

    moved by mod...
================================================================================
Note 942.15                   2 or 4 cycle Diesels?                     15 of 20
CSLALL::BORZUMATO                                    17 lines  27-JAN-1992 08:17
                       -< its here whats the problem.. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    It seems strange, Diesels are fuel injected and have been for
    sometime. Whats the big deal with putting it on a gas block.
    
    Here's my suspicion, they crank them out, and like the cash cow,
    if they make changes they need to recover the costs of changing.
    They wait until Yamaha or someother offshore mfgr. blows their
    doors off and then they complain about unfair competition.
    
    I can't say if feel sorry for them, if you want to stay ahead
    then thats just what you do.
    
    There's tons of room for improvement in the marine engine
    enviornment, what are they waiting for...
    
    JIm.
    

    moved by mod...
================================================================================
Note 942.16                   2 or 4 cycle Diesels?                     16 of 20
MR4DEC::DCADMUS "happiness is a bigger boat"         35 lines  27-JAN-1992 13:44
                    -< Disels MUST use FI. optional on GAS >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    
     There is a BIG diffeence between the mechanical fuel injection systems
    used on Diesels and the EFI used on cars. The nature of the diesels is
    that they MUST inject the fuel into the cylinders, where it is ignited
    by Hight temp compressed air in the cy;inder. ON gasoline engines , you
    have a choice, and carbs are much cheaoer and simpler than EFI. 
    
    I still get real nervous about all the electronics in an engine
    room-worse yet in an I/O or Outboard.
    
     I have an I/O- I keep a carb repair kit, a spare fuel pump, and a set
    of points,plugs, condensor,and ignition coil.  I can usually get home
    in case of a failure. Having had an Outboard with "all electronics"-
    all I can say is that the preventative maintenance was less , but the
    corrective maintenance (read electronic failures) drove me nuts- and
    it was expensive.
    
     Changing points /plugs every season encourages me to look over the
    engine real well. I'm a great beliver in The K.I.S.S. principle around
    marine engines- the simpler, the better.
    
     I can just imagine the cost of a replacemnent powerpack for a marine
    Inboard-probably more than we would like to think about.
    
     I  digress- again the fuel injection on Diesels is there because there
    really isn't another choice- and the mechanical injection systems are
    pretty simple and trouble free, albeit expensive, particulalrly if the
    injection pump goes South.
    
     My 2 cents
     Dick
    
     
     

    moved by mod...
================================================================================
Note 942.18                   2 or 4 cycle Diesels?                     18 of 20
MR4DEC::DCADMUS "happiness is a bigger boat"         15 lines  27-JAN-1992 15:21
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
     The only comment I have about the previous note is that I don't
    believe the cost of marine elctronic components will be "inexpensive"-
    if OMC can get $400 plus (list price) for a "Marine" Rochester
    Quadrajet, think of how bad it will gety for a fuel injection "brain"
    or a throttle Body injector "Carburetor"
    
     I like it simple so I can repair it- the thought of having some of
    the "marine mechanics" working on a sophisticated EFI system scares me.
    They have enough trouble with a simple carburetted/points engine.
    
    
     Dick
    
    

    One might look toward motorcycle design as an indication of where
    outboard engines will draw their inspiration.  For example, Yamaha had
    a 400 cc 2 cycle water cooled engine a while back that would pass 49 state 
    emissions regulations (but not the stricter Cal regs.)  It made use of a 
    shutter that closed down the exhaust ports under certain conditions (High
    vacuum, maybe?) to keep unburned gases in the combustion chamber.  
    
    I'd say that electronic ignition will be a given in the next few years.  
    Fuel injection will be put off for quite a while longer.
    
    
Carl

    The technology is definitely there (or on the way) to clean up
    2 stroke emissions.  Ford and Chrysler are presently working
    on 2 stroke designs for automotive use, based on patents licensed
    by an Australian company if I remember right.
    
    Rick

Here's the scoop on a hot new top-secret outboard!

Following the lead of the automobile industry in building experimental 
models to explore new ideas, the __________ Corporation has built the 
R-120, a high performance outboard power unit which incorporates many 
new features.  The four-cylinder radial engine develops 125 horsepower 
from 90 cubic inches of displacement, but is smaller in every dimension 
than current outboards of half the power.  A turbo-supercharger improves 
fuel economy while increasing performance, and gives automatic altitude 
compensation and better sound control.  An oil lubricated crankcase 
eliminates fuel mixing and cuts oil consumption; the engine has direct 
cylinder fuel injection. All engine controls are remote and electric.  
The motor is hung from the transom on a mount that lets it tilt forward
behind the transom and keeps the powerhead out of the boat at all times.
Steering is done by moving the lower unit only; the powerhead does not 
turn. Tilt and trim of the motor are remotely controlled.  The propeller 
pitch is variable and reversible.  The experimental model is not intended 
for production and sale, but its features may eventually incorporated in 
__________ production motors.

Sound like someone is trying to outfox Mercury in bringing an injected
outboard to production first?



NOT!  This press release appeared in the December *1959* issue of Popular
Mechanics.  Fill in the blank with the name Scott McCulloch.  Obviously
the thought of outboards with fuel injection and pressure lubricated 
crankcases appeared long before Mercury decided to run with it.

A reprint of the press release appeared in an article about this motor
in the January 1992 issue of the Antique Outboard Motor Club's magazine.
The author of the article is asking for information from anyone who may 
know whether this outboard ever made it into a running prototype or even 
limited production.  Apparently there is no evidence that it ever did, 
but an outboard built today with the features described in 1959 would 
probably sell like hotcakes.

Rick

    Hey! Rick!
    
    You build it. I'll buy it.
    
    John H-C

    	This "new" fuel injected Merc must be more than just fuel
    injection because the 225 Merc/Mariner has been fuel injected since 
    at least 1987. When I bought my boat that year I considered the 
    175, 200 and 225 Mariner. They were all running the same block but 
    the 225 was fuel injected. I bought the 200 because the cost of the 
    fuel injected model was $1,300 more than the 200 while the 175 was only
    $300 less.  

    Paul,
    Do you happen to know whether the current version of the Merc
    outboard injection system is direct port injection, or a "throttle
    body" injection system?  Both systems are used in automobile 
    applications, but the direct port system is much more efficient.
    Throttle body injection is essentially nothing more than an 
    electronic carburetor.
    
    A true port injected system on a 2 stroke requires some type of 
    seperate oiling system for the crankcase, since the fuel/oil mix
    does not pass through the crankcase.  This is something that
    was just worked out by Merc, according to the article in Boating.
    Based on that, I would suspect the current Merc F.I. system is
    throttle body or something similar to it.  I'll have to go back
    and read the article in Boating again.
    
    Rick

    Rick,
    	I'd guess its a throttle body type because, at least in '87, most 
    of the parts on the injected vs carb versions were identical. I would
    think you would have to do a major redesign to provide for the
    lubrication system etc. if it were a port injected system. That's what
    prompted my reply. The new system must more than just "injection".
        If the new system does in fact result bringing the efficiency up and
    the air pollution down without sacrificing much weight it will be a
    terrific breakthrough for O/B lovers like myself. I can hardly wait to
    see what the cost of this baby will be.
    
    Paul
    
    P.S. Luv this technical stuff   :^)

    
    Folks,this is just an informational bit from the "Gas Engines"
    department of the August '92 issue of Motor Boating @ Sailing
    magazine.No prices or specifics are given beyond what I am
    entering here.
    
    	More good news out of Waukegan is the availability of a marine
    electronically fuel injected(EFI) engine.As we promised earlier this
    year,EFI stern drives are in production.
    	OMC recently unveiled two versions,both based on Ford small block
    V8' s.First is a 5.0 liter rated 225hp,followed by a 5.8 liter rated
    265hp.These new EFI engines boastall the attendant benefits of land
    based EFI engines:better performance,better fuel economy,and easier
    starting and troubleshooting.
    	OMC's EFI engines come equipped with the Spitfire engine-management
    system which monitors all vital signs to maximize performance and
    longevity.If a malfunction occurs,the system stores a trouble code in
    its memory so a service technician can quickly spot and repair a
    problem.
    	We ran the EFI engine on a couple of 19 foot sportboats.On the
    first turn of the key,the cold engine kicked off and ran smoothly.We
    didn't have to wait for the block to warm up,as with a cabureted
    engine.We idled away from the dock with nary a hint of hesitation.
    	Throttle response was crisp,and once on plane at half
    throttle(about 30 mph) we jammed the lever forward.Acceleration was
    very strong-a seat of the pants push not unlike goosing a Corvette
    on the open road.
    	The real eyebrow-raiser was the EFI's price tag:instead of having
    to pay a high premium as you might expect,OMC says its EFI stern drive
    packages cost nearly the same as an equivalent carbureted engine.
    
    Copied without permission.
    
    Keith
    

    The 225 HP engine sounds like they are "marinizing" the 5.0 Liter 
    Mustang engine.  They have loads of low end torque which would be 
    great for smaller boats used for water skiing. If anyone has driven
    one of the newer 5.0 Liter Mustangs, you'll know what I'm talking
    about.  
    
    Let's see now.  How do I convince my wife that it's a godd idea to
    store my original 26 year old 260 CI Ford engine and bolt in a 
    225HP 302 CI?  
    Wayne

	Much like Digital, the marine industry "has it today"....

	The latest issue of Waterski has an extensive article about
bolt-on fuel injection. The system fits most marine V8s. It appears
to be the equivalent of the automotive throttle body system. Waterski
raved about having "even" performance with this system installed on
a 1993 Malibu? across all temperature ranges. (both engine and outside).
It appeared to have more out of the hole performance, but suffered a
1 MPH loss on top end.

	A mere $1300 for this system and, more expensive multi-port
systems are also available. Guess I'll be keeping my Holley!

Rick

Dave, better get out your plastic!

Ooooh, it's sorta tempting.  I didn't go for the optional injection when I
bought.  It was the first year available , and the $1500 price tag seemed a
bit steep for something unproven.  I regret not having bitten the bullet.

My major complaints with the MC are due to carburation; hard cold starts, and
uneven acceleration out of the hole. I'd read a little about the 'throttle
body' add ons, but have yet to see any reviews.  I'll be watching for my copy of
WS mag.  

If a drop the top end a mph or two, Jeff will really drown while footin!

Hmmmm, is it too late to ask Santa for this season?

dave

    I wouldn't drown if I had *somebody* who knew how to either calibrate
    or read a speed-o! Someone of my gravitationally challenged caliber
    can't skim at those sub 40 mph wimpo speeds. 
    
    I suspect your motor can be made to start cold and run better just by
    having someone tune it. It's a bug, not a feature.
    
    ~jeff_with_cabin_fever

Somehow I don't think speedo calibration or watching is an issue here. I seem to
recall the instructions were the equivalent of 'floor it!' 8*)  Musta been a
headwind that day.

We'll have to see if the dealer was effective at addressing these issues when I
had them winterize and tune it last fall.  My own experience and others have
told me the cold hardstart is the nature of the beast, but I agree with you-
seems like a bug. 

The snow bank in front of the garage was only about 4 feet high this weekend.
I may be able to get the MC out before July!

dave

    <<< Note 946.23 by BIRDIE::JGREEN "Living beyond my emotional means" >>>
                                -< it's a bug >-

>    I wouldn't drown if I had *somebody* who knew how to either calibrate
>    or read a speed-o! Someone of my gravitationally challenged caliber
>    can't skim at those sub 40 mph wimpo speeds. 
>    
>    I suspect your motor can be made to start cold and run better just by
>    having someone tune it. It's a bug, not a feature.
>    
>    ~jeff_with_cabin_fever

	Jeff,
		You might not have this litle "problem" much longer
behind my boat! :-)

Rick
		TY