Conference vicki::boats

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Note 944.13           Trailerable Salt Water Fishing Boats?             13 of 23
SNAX::NERKER                                          4 lines  31-JAN-1992 12:28
                     -< How about aluminum in this size? >-
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    These comments/opinions are very helpful in contemplating a
    jump to this size boat. I was wondering if any body had any comments
    on owning these same size boats in Aluminum? does this add any
    dimension to the towing , launching, and sea ride? Any comments?

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Note 944.14           Trailerable Salt Water Fishing Boats?             14 of 23
DNEAST::OKERHOLM_PAU                                 21 lines  31-JAN-1992 17:02
                            -< Not an Aluminum fan >-
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    Re .13>
    	Aluminum will save money in the purchase of the boat, the size of
    the motor, the tow vehicle requirements, trailer and operating cost of
    the boat. That's the good news.
    	On the negative side however, popular (non commercial) aluminum boats 
    seem to top off at about 18' at, least here on the east coast. I know 
    there are bigger boats made of aluminum but I'd say over 90% of the boats 
    in the 20' - 24' category are fiberglas.
    	I don't like aluminum for this application myself. I like the lines 
    and strength of fiberglas.  You can make a boat out of aluminum as strong 
    as with any material but the result is usually a piecemeal construction
    with wood decks screwed to aluminum struts etc and it just doesn't look
    like a single unit. 
    	I expect someone will counter my claims with some example of a top
    flight, welded aluminum boat that uses the metal in virtually everything. 
    These boats do exist but they are rare. Most aluminum boats are designed 
    for economy; after all that's their major appeal.   
    
    Just My Opinion
    
    Paul	 

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Note 944.15           Trailerable Salt Water Fishing Boats?             15 of 23
CSLALL::BORZUMATO                                    10 lines   3-FEB-1992 08:15
                               -< not that good >-
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    I know of 2 alum. boats both 20'. there are major headaches
    for the owners.  One has been returned to the factory for
    major reriveting, and there are still problems....
    
    Something to be avoided like the plague...
    
    (paul put it nicely)
    
    JIm.

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Note 944.16           Trailerable Salt Water Fishing Boats?             16 of 23
TOOK::SWIST "Jim Swist LKG2-2/T2 DTN 226-7102"        3 lines   3-FEB-1992 08:53
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    Yeah, at least in salt water...   Isn't salt water highly corrosive to
    aluminum?
    

    
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Note 944.17           Trailerable Salt Water Fishing Boats?             17 of 24
GOLF::WILSON                                         16 lines   3-FEB-1992 11:38
                         -< Welded aluminum is better >-
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    There is a WORLD of difference between riveted aluminum boats
    and welded aluminum boats.  Riveted boats are generally made of
    thin sheet aluminum with seams, rivets, and all the problems of
    leaks and corrosion that go along with them.
    
    Welded boats are made of much thicker stock, and have no seams
    or rivets to develop leaks.  They are also less succeptible to
    corrosion with their smooth surface.
    
    Welded aluminum does pose more of a corrosion problem than fiberglass,
    but it also has several advantages, like strength and light weight.
    One of the best luxury yachts in the world, Broward, uses welded
    aluminum.  They've apparently worked out solutions to the corrosion
    problems.
    
    Rick

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Note 944.18           Trailerable Salt Water Fishing Boats?             18 of 24
SMURF::AMATO "Joe Amato"                              6 lines   3-FEB-1992 11:55
                                   -< fwiw >-
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    I know a guy (here it comes Paul;) that has a wininghoff (sp?) welded
    aluminum that he loves.  Light, low maintenance, fast, and able to
    trailer with less of a truck than he'ld need for a comparable
    fiberglass.
    
    Joe

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Note 944.19           Trailerable Salt Water Fishing Boats?             19 of 24
MSCSSE::BERENS "Alan Berens"                         19 lines   3-FEB-1992 12:23
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I don't think that corrosion, per se, is necessarily a problem with aluminum 
boats. Some aluminum alloys are quite corrosion resistant and modern 
paint techonology is certainly adequate for painting aluminum. Rather, 
the problem is electolysis between the aluminum and almost any other 
metal, eg, bronze through-hulls or copper bottom paint. The electrolysis 
destroys the aluminum. Aluminum must be electrically isolated from other 
metals, which means, for example, that you either need an epoxy barrier 
coat between the bottom paint and the aluminum hull or you need to have 
a very large boat that is allowed to use tin-based anti-fouling paints. 
Aluminum can be used to build quite elegant and satisfactory boats. 

Another problem with aluminum, and any metal for that matter, is that 
metal plating isn't very stiff and needs considerable framing (which is 
labor instensive). This makes it very difficult to build a small, light
yacht, even if expense isn't an issue. 40' is about the smallest boat
practical to build from metal (other than small aluminum skiffs). 

Alan

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Note 944.20           Trailerable Salt Water Fishing Boats?             20 of 24
CARROL::YELINEK "WITHIN 10"                          13 lines   3-FEB-1992 13:49
                        -< The Tin paint will cost ya. >-
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    re: .18 by AMATO
    
    Winninghoff, I have found, is a very popular boat along the East coast.
    Jack Winninghoff is located in Rowley MA. and designs boats to fit
    the customers needs.  He built the Newbury MA. Harbormasters boat and
    was chosen because of what we (in Newbury) saw in the Danvers
    Harbormasters boat, Beverly's etc.  I've been through the factory and
    there seems to be a great deal of pride in what he builds. 
    Conversations with Jack, and the pictures on the walls in his factory
    indicate that his business reaches much further West than you'd
    imagine.
    
    /MArk

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Note 944.21           Trailerable Salt Water Fishing Boats?             21 of 24
PENUTS::GORDON                                        5 lines   5-FEB-1992 11:56
                                  -< where? >-
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    RE: .-1
    
    Where in Rowley?  I live in the town and would like to see the factory.
    
    Gordon

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Note 944.22           Trailerable Salt Water Fishing Boats?             22 of 24
CARROL::YELINEK "WITHIN 10"                           7 lines   5-FEB-1992 12:47
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    Gordon,  Winninghoff Boats is located on Warehouse Lane in Rowley.
    Heading North on Rt. 1A through the center of town, pass the Todd
    Farm.. I believe it's the next street on your right(or the 2nd).
    Go down Warehouse Lane for ~1/2 mile and you'll see a huge brown barn
    on your right. Parking is around back.
    
    /MArk

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Note 944.23           Trailerable Salt Water Fishing Boats?             23 of 24
SELECT::SPENCER                                      36 lines   5-FEB-1992 19:27
                         -< More on Winninghoff Boats >-
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I worked for Jack Winninghoff for a year or so (see SAILING notes for my 
account of how [not] to mold a 24' aluminum sloop hull in just two pieces).  
An honest as well as interesting man.  His boats speak for themselves.

To answer some of the implicit questions over the last bunch of replies:

-  Jack's approach is to use corrosion-resistant alloys (few owners of his
   boats paint the topsides; bottom paint is for growth resistance only.)  
   Appearance and integrity are really only challenged by improper 
   mounting of dissimilar metals (entirely avoided wherever possible) and by 
   electrolysis (which requires thoughtful design and careful grounding.)

-  The designs he uses intentionally torture the metal sheets into
   stressed shapes -- simple curves on the verge of becoming compound.  
   This provides remarkable stiffness, and when shaped to avoid large flat 
   surfaces likely to hit the water squarely, the ride is quite soft, too.  
   But don't expect the shapes one sees in fiberglass.

-  A typical 24' outboard-powered runabout from Jack will have the engine 
   mounted inboard from the transom a few feet, in a well open aft.  
   Advantages include engine protection, workability, improved weight 
   distribution, transom access, etc.

-  It is relatively light compared to a similar-sized f.g. boat. 

-  Smaller boats have hull and topside thickness of 1/8"; pipe and channel 
   used for reinforcement is about the same wall thickness.  All welded 
   structure; no rivets, screws or bolts.

-  Customization is easy and economical; no two boats are the same.  
   Add-ons like railings, etc, are welded on, and thus uncommonly solid.

Aluminum boats aren't for everyone, but for some they represent a uniquely 
effective and economical solution.

J.

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Note 944.24           Trailerable Salt Water Fishing Boats?             24 of 24
PENUTS::GORDON                                        6 lines   6-FEB-1992 11:28
                                  -< thanks >-
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    RE .22
    
    Thanks for the directions.  Will take a ride down there sometime and
    check it out.
    
    Gordon

    I have had both aluminum and WOODEN boats.  The Al boats are durable
    and very low on maintenance... BUT if you want to make any
    mofifications to the boat, forget it unless you own a metal shop.
    
    Wooden boats require care... not as much as I thought, but you can't
    leave them in the back yard full of leaves and water and expect to
    avoid rot for long... BUT you can do modifications to your hearts 
    content depending on your skills by using common tools. 
    
    Once there is a significant dent/rupture in an Al hull it takes a pro
    to get things looking factory again, if them.  My Al canoe got banged
    up and I pounded the dents out, it doesn't leak... but it sure looks
    like hell, and I know of no way short of replacing to canoe to get
    it looking unbanged up.  I suppose a wooden canoe would have been
    destroyed in the same conditions.. but with lesser damage it could have
    been fixed completely. 
    
    Fiberglass has the best of both worlds IMO.. Its relatively easily
    repairable and its durable too. 
    
    Jeff

    Oh yeah, one more thing on Al boats.  Al is subject to electrolyis. In
    salt water use Al can corrode rapidly.  One must pay attention to
    zincs.
    Also, stray electrical currents from neighbor boats can raise hell if
    your docked for extended periods in a marina.
    
    I know marine Al is much better than the older Al boats used to be but
    I am not sure how well it holds up in salt water use now.
    
    When I was a kid a neighbor had a MAGNESIUM skiff. I grew up adjacent
    to salt water, and I remember, at the end of ONE SUMMER that boat
    looked like moths had gotten at it... it was all but destroyed.  It
    wasn't even IN the water that much... it was stored above the high
    tide line... it still got eaten up. 
    
    Jeff

    
    One of the fellas at the marina is in the marine metal business.
    
    Towers, fuel tanks, bimini's etc. The preferred metal above the
    waterline, for a tower regardless of whether half or whatever
    is AL. First consideration is weight. the other is ease of welding
    as stainless joints have to be buffed out.
    
    Grady Whites with towers of AL seem to be holding up.
    
    Obvioulsy you need to take care of them...
    
    
    here's my little knowledge..
    
    JIm.

    Much of Al corrosion primarily occurs BELOW the waterline.  I have seen Al
    used around boats above the water line too and much of it seems to turn
    into a white power which crumbles upon being touched.
    Perhaps Marine Al has been improved.  Since Grady White is a class boat
    builder I assume they use the 'best' Marine Al around?
    
    Jeff

RE: -.1,

[this is from Winninghoff's spiel; see Jack for the complete version:]

>>>  BUT if you want to make any mofifications to the boat, forget it
>>>  unless you own a metal shop. 

Two reasonable options are:
1) To trail the boat back to the builder, if it's someone like Jack who's
   local; options are easier to add than with wood in many cases. 
2) Buy a low-end MIG welder and make them yourself.  One can learn to weld 
   aluminum well enough for many repairs and modifications by practicing on 
   $50 worth of scrap.  Buy/rent/borrow a nibble cutter if you want to do
   more than a little work (hacksawing is very tedious and tiring.)

>>>  Once there is a significant dent/rupture in an Al hull it takes a pro
>>>  to get things looking factory again, if them.  

An Aluminum canoe is closer to tinfoil than 1/8" plate.  First of all, AL 
has a higher *combination* of strength and elasticity per pound than any
other reasonably priced building material (including steel); this means it 
will be more resistant to catastrophic failure in a given accident.  Yes, 
it will bend a lot before breaking (and absorb prodigious amounts of 
energy in the process), but getting home in a watertight boat is more 
important than the eventual prospect of repair.  

Second, unlike the compound curves of most f.g. boats (designed that way 
for necessary stiffness), it can be a relatively simple procedure to set 
the boat up (or over); snip or torch any gussets, stringers, etc; ditto
the mangled plate out entirely; jig the frame into desired final shape if 
necessary (wise even if undistorted to prevent welding heat from racking 
it); weld in the new piece; reattach the old or new items; and from there
it's pretty much cosmetics and launch.  Painting is unnecessary.

Not a bad approach, really.

J.

    	Now that this topic is generic aluminum I can be more positive. 8^)
    I have a 14' aluminum boat which is fine for fresh water fishing. In
    this case I'm often either trailering long distances, or trailering on
    dirt roads (or worse)...I have put it in the back of my 4wd pickup and
    bushwacked into some pretty remote salmon ponds. For this kind of
    fishing you can't beat aluminum in my estimation. 
    	If the topic switches to canoes, I get negative again. I don't like
    the noise or the refected sun or the inherent ability of aluminum to
    attract and grab onto rocks.
    	Actually these drawbacks are present in the 14 footer as well but I
    can live with them when the alternative is a boat that's too heavy to
    bring to the water.

    	Now that a couple of years have gone by on this note, are there any
    significant changes in this market ? Are aluminum boats slightly larger
    that 18' more readily available ?
    
    	What I was looking for is if there was something around 20' in an
    welded aluminum that has a small cabin for getting out of the elements, 
    with a small head and galley ?
    
    	Ray

    Have you called wininghoff (sp) boats in rowley mass?  They specialize
    in custom built aluminum boats.  

	I believe that Starcraft still makes cuddy cabins up to 23 ft. in
aluminum.
					B.C.

    	Does Starcraft do welded hulls now ? If not, do theirs hold up well
    to the salt.
    
    	I did see the note about the custom aluminum boats and kind of
    equated "custom" with "$$$". I'd be looking primarily for a used boat as
    I'd be limited to something in the $5k and under range (if that's 
    feasible). I know it is with fiberglass anyway.
    
    	My guess is usage would be 65% Merrimack river, 15% Isle of
    Shoals (Bluefish/Mackeral/Flounder), 15% Cod trips, 5% freshwater 
    (Massabesic, Winni, etc.).
    
    	Just to put a few more parameters in regarding use, I'd want the
    following -
    
    	o Small enough to fish the Merrimack or big freshwater
    	o Light and easily towed/handled (relative to fiberglass)
    	o Economical on fuel
    	o Able to do trips to Isle of Shoals and 15-20 mile Cod trips on good
    	  days
    	o Relatively fast (i.e. top speed in the low 40's). 
    	o Ability to hose down the deck/seats (i.e. not too fancy)
    	o Full cabin with some sort of hard or soft top (hopefully room
    	  for 3 small kids to sleep during an overnighter)
    	o Small head and galley (i.e. icebox/sink/stove)
    
    	One of the things that I'm on the fence about is whether to go with
    a deep-V or a modified-V. From what I've read, it sounds like deep-V is
    the way to go for what I'm looking for. Then again, with my budget, I
    may have to just take what I can get when I get to that point.
    	
    	Ray

The boat in the slip next to me is a 22' starcraft.  It looks like a good setup
has a cabin and a place to sleep.  The owner likes it a lot and it's pretty
cheap to run.  I believe that he has a somewhere near 125 hp outboard on it.
HE says it will do in the forties and that it's seaworthy.  

Could be what you're looking for.

Gordon

    	Thanks for the info. It does sound about as close as I'll get to
    what I'm looking for. I'll have to take a trip to a Starcraft dealer
    and check them out.
    
    	It's always nice to get input from someone that actually has one.
    Dealers have a vested interest in telling you what ever they think you 
    want to hear. BTW - Do I detect a slight hint of sarcasm on the supposed 
    top speed or was the capital HE a Freudian slip of the fingers ;-)
    
    	Ray

Next time I see him, I'll ask how he likes it and how far out he would be
comfortable.  What kinds of seas and overall performance.

Gordon

    	BTW - Anyone have any approx. number on what something like this would
    weigh with gas, gear, etc. ? Part of the reason for going to aluminum
    would be to be able to use a smaller tow vehicle.
    
    	Ray

	There's an ad for a 22' Starcraft Weekender(?) Cuddy Cabin w/125 hp
on a trailer.  I think it's all '86 vintage.  Has some extras like loran, etc.
The asking price in the ad is $4500...

	The only problem I have with all of this is the fact that you are
looking for a boat that fits -every- need!  From my experience all boats are,
in one way or another, a compromise.  You're looking for a boat with lots of
room and sleeping quarters, but you want it to be small and light enough to
tow with a small vehicle...  That in itself is a tall order.  I do think that
you are looking at the right class of boat to come as close as possible to your
wants, however, I'd be real cautious about how small a vehicle I use on any
22ft. rig!
				B.C.

    	I guess I should make a couple clarifications. I consider anything
    short of an 8-cylinder 4x4 as a smallish tow vehicle. I currently own a
    3.0L Aerostar, which I consider to be on the small side. I also have a
    2.0L Corsica which I probably wouldn't even attempt on this size boat.
    
    	I also realize that any boat is a compromise. I'm just trying to
    minimize the things I need to compromise on. Having been on/seen a few
    boats in this size range, I have a good idea what to expect in the area
    of cabin size. If I could get one with V-berths and perhaps a table
    that folds down into a small bed (for the kids), this would be ideal.
    
    	I have seen similar configurations in similar sized fiberglass
    boats. I just didn't know if it was available in aluminum.
    
    	Thanks for the info.......Ray