Conference vicki::boats

    
    How much can you afford?
    
    Bruce

    I love to spend other people's money!  How much have you 
    got?   8^)
    
    This is a purchase you'll likely live with for a long time.
    I would suggest you read every magazine, brochure, and boat
    test you can get your hands on. Talk to every owner you can 
    find of boats in your range.  Also, attend the boat shows
    and start comparing.
    
    You may also want to post this in the WAHOO::FISHING-V2
    conference.
    
    Rick

    
    go to 32' if you want to contain all you mentioned.
    
    JIm.

    At this point cost is not a problem.  I am in the dream stage and am
    trying to capture everything one would want on such a machine.  The
    next step is to weed out the stuff one cannot afford.
    
    The reason for the size restriction is that I still want to get into
    stripers and they are usually close to shore.  Also right now and in
    the forseeable future this will be big enough for me.  Also I have to
    be able to afford the gas.  I have a friend that has a 32' lurrs and
    from Beverly to Jefferies is about $150 round trip.
    
    Now if money was no object a 50' Bertram would be nice with an 18'
    center console (dingy) for the inshore fishing.
    
    What I really was looking for was to get ideas/experiences of you guys.
    I know that there are others in this file who have much the same
    interests as I do.  Bruce Sweet is one that comes to mind.  I would
    like input from these guys on what they have for boats, what do they
    like/dislike about them, what would the want next, etc.
    
    Most of the folks in the fishing notes also read this note as well so I
    thought that in this note I could get the best of both worlds.
    
    Thanks Gordon
    

    You might consider a down-east style(lobster boat) since they offer
    many of the things you want. They are very sea-kindly, especially at
    trolling speeds, as well as at cruise. Most have a 3' or less draft and
    they have plenty of cockpit space for the serious fisherman. With a
    wheelhouse and a forward cabin(step-down), you could have safety and
    the creature comforts you desire. I would suggest you look at a single
    diesel which would mean running economy(you could make your friend's
    Luhr's trip at about 1/3 of the cost), safety, plenty of room for fuel
    etc.
    
    Any boatyard in Maine will have a variety of these boats for sale in
    sizes from 26-40+ feet. Depending on the size of your checkbook, you
    could have one custom built according to your specs. You might pick up
    a copy of the Maine Coastal News or Soundings Magazine both of which
    have an extensive classified section as well as ads for new stuff.
    
    Fred Smith
    

	I've had a boat in salt water going on my forth season now, and
I also think about what I would like or change for the next boat.  Your
initial "want list" struck me as having some conflicts like bracketed outboards
and a transom door, and offshore and 25-28 ft with 10 ft beam.  It seams to
me like the first thing you need to do is define and quantify your intended
usage in order to make trade offs (ie 80% inshore, 5% offshore, 15% cruising).
Some how I just can't visualize an off shore fisherman of 25-28 feet with no
fly bridge or tower for visibility and outboards on a bracket with a fighting
chair.  The fighting chair would have to be so high you might call it a
fighting bar stool, and with a 10 ft beam the side to side whip up that
high in rolling seas should be enough to break your neck if not give you a
bad whip lash.  I also can't see how to carry enough fuel in a 25 footer for
those gas hungry outboards, without eliminating all available space for
sleeping, eating, or just getting out of the weather.  How about needing
to work on one of those outboards in order to get back from the canyons ?
Seems to me a bit difficult to stand on that bracket, take the cover off,
keep the parts dry, keep from deep sixing the tools while rolling around
out there.  And how about docking this "machine" ?  From my experience
watching, or trying to "rope" in a 25 Grady with twin 250 Johnsons on a
bracket that they are not at all maneuverable at all.  Give me twin screw
inboards any day.
	I don't go out alone.  Usually its the family plus.  I have a 34 ft
fly bridge and like it.  As for the next boat, I'm dreaming at about a 42
or 43 sport fish, (Post, Viking, etc) definitely fly bridge and hopefully
half tower and hard top, radar which I don't have now and SSB.  Definitely
diesel for the safety and economy, (probably 671's for experience, reliability
etc.) and used so the diesel will be affordable and large fuel capacity.
To give you a perspective, gas was $1.57 a gal while diesel from the Coop
was $.72 (at Marinas $1.40) last season.  I burn 18-20 gph @ 16 knts and
have an effective reach of about 60 miles out.  One of the other fellows
in the marina had a 38 Chris with twin 3208 Cats naturally aspirated.  He
claimed 12 gph cruising @ 18-22 knts with a 300 gal capacity.  He said he
could easily make it to the canyons, fish a day or two, come back and still
have fuel for several local trips.

	Rick

    re: .6
    
    This is just the kind of reponse that I was looking for, what is wrong
    with my design and what you would like to see in such a machine.
    
    I have looked at and like very much the 25' Quest by Four Winds.  It
    has a 20 degree deadrise, 10' beam, twin outboards mounted on an
    integral bracket, a tuna door.  It is a real nice design, catch it at
    the boat show in Boston, there should be one there.
    
    It also carries 240 gals of fuel.
    
    I will probably do 50/50 offshore/inshore fishing.  The last few
    seasons I have done more inshore, but with my increased experience
    level and a more seaworthy vessel under me that will change.  I have
    had many sloppy rides back in my current boat.
    
    Thanks for the replys
    Gordon

    The Blackwatch 26 seems to fit your description. Its primarily a 
    fishing machine so comfort may not be what the family expects. It's 
    a true deep V is made of high tech composites for light weight and 
    has no flying bridge. It comes in either O/B or I/O. I think the beam
    is only 9'6" but I may be wrong. I'm told rigged out with twin 225's
    it'll do 54 knots with a tuna tower on it; the same setup supposedly
    uses 17 gal/hr at cruise (which is probable high 20's at 3000 - 3500
    rpm).
    
    The Grady 28' will fill the bill as well and it has a lot of creature
    comforts. Its a lot heavier and probably would not have the same
    performance/economy specs as the Blackwatch but it would be comfortable
    and its a beautifully designed and laid out boat from both a fishing
    and living point of view. 
    
    I'm sure I could go on a lot longer but I gotta go.
    
    Have fun,
    Paul

re .7
	At this point I think it gets down to definitions, opinions, and
preferences.  We apparently differ in crew size, and therefore boat size.
You apparently want the ability to single hand and are limiting yourself to
the 26 ft range, where I usually carry more people and require more space.
I don't have experience on a 26, (I went from 16 to 34)  but from what I have
seen in Buzzards Bay, Vineyard Sound if I were looking at a 26 I would want
a wider beam than 10 ft for stability.  We should probably also define what
"off shore" means, is it 10 miles out or is it 100 miles out to the canyons.
This to me is the jumping off place to start talking about what you need to
carry (ie, SSB, liferaft, food, sleeping space, spare parts, etc.) and the
size of boat it takes to do this "comfortably".
	We also seem to have differing opinions on power, reliability, and
economy.  I sense you lean toward outboard power, where I lean toward diesel.
However, this could just be a factor in the size of boat we are looking toward.
I am not a fan of outboards, and even though I have gas now I would like to
have diesel for the safety and economy aspect.  I understand it's almost
impossible to cost justify the diesel at this latitude, but there was some
element of "dream" involved in this perfect fishing machine.  I do believe
bracketed outboards vs inboards does require more discussion, or opinion,
from people who have had both (not me).  I would think that hanging the weight
of two big outboards off a bracket (back past the center of gravity at trolling
speed) would have a negative effect on ride and sea worthiness, as opposed
to that weight being amidship.  I have V-drives, and although easy to work on
right below the cockpit, I would want the the next boat to have straight
drives with the weight farther forward.  I really notice this when docking
in a stiff breeze (most afternoons Buzzards Bay is 15-25 from the SW) where
the wind gusts tend to play havoc with the bow and force me to come in faster
than I would like using the momentum of the boat and rudders for stability
instead of just "wiggling" it in the easy way with the clutches.
	We haven't addressed the roll of control and maneuverability in the
"fishing machine".  As I said previously, my experience has shown that
bracketed outboards are not maneuverable.  I have also been told that "pocket
drives" like Black Fin or Bluewater don't back down predictably or in a 
controllable manor.  So how important is the ability to back down on a fish
or dock easily ?  Visibility is also another issue for me.  I think a flybridge
is essential for visibility.  To me it seems unsafe to to put some forward
for visibility in shallows, mine fields (lobster pot areas), or in the
afternoon rollers in the fishtrap areas (like off Narragansett Bay).  I have
a "Convertible" as opposed to a "Sport fisherman".  It has been pointed out
to me that one of the differences between the two is that usually on the
sport fisherman the bow rails don't tend to offer as much protection, starting
farther forward.  Also the forward decks tend to be smooth gel coat for
ease of maintenance instead of non-skid as on the convertible.  This is
another aspect of the safety issues forward.  In my case the convertible is
another trade off for creature comfort for the rest of the family, but yields
a safety benefit also in this case.
	As for the transom door, that is something I think we both agree on.   
It sure would be nice.  I have a swim platform now, but I think if I were to
pick, I would look for the door and no platform for optimum fish benefit.
	Since you mention your trade off is 50/50 inshore/offshore and no
family cruising or gunk holing I would think a Black Watch, as mentioned by
Paul to be an excellent choice.  But as Jim indicates I would be in the 30's
instead of the 26.  The 33 seems to be an expanded 30.  I would also go for
the Cummins (sp ?) instead of the 318 or 360's which usually come in the 26's.
A friend has a 30 Black Watch with Cummins, tower, Furuno (sp?) radar, etc.
He uses it extensively for canyon runs, and seems very satisfied.  The only
negative aspect I am aware of is the in ability to run on just the port engine
(you can run on the starboard alone, but if you loose the starboard you just
seem to go in circles).
	Hope this helps.

	Rick

    
    Let me be a little more specific:
    
    IMHO the first thing to consider in buying any boat is the intended
    use. Note intended is used here because not of all the intentions
    materialize, or at the same rate.
    
    The other is usually money. I don't care how much you dream
    this is still the limitation.
    
    As Rick mentioned, the Blackwatch 30 (i know the boat he's referring
    to) would definitely make a nice boat for offshore use and would
    be accomodating. 
    There are 2 very nice features, the bridge is well layed out
    and it has a pair of diesels.
    The trade-offs come in the area of accomodations, the V-bunk
    the galley, the dinette, and the head are in one central
    area. Given its efficient it has some drawbacks.
    
    The cockpit is decent size, but the engine covers narrow the isle
    way leading into the cabin, room for one only.
    
    I've seen the boat underway, and it moves right along, from
    what the owner has told me, it handles the seas very well.
    A 6 foot sea isn't much of a problem for the hull, and
    the ride ain't bad.
    
    The beam must be 12', at least it looks it.
    
    This guy does offshore, like 120 miles out, and has always
    come back.
    
    I'd suggest you list the features you want, and place a value
    on each of them. Then go shopping.
    
    Rick and i have sisterships, and they're not offshore boats
    due to fuel capacity. I figure we have about 10 hrs of usable
    fuel @ 20 gals./hr. @ 16-17 knots. I'm figuring that 10%
    of the fuel can't be used in this guesstimate.
    Of course this also includes the seas are favorable, if not
    the speed goes down.
    
    I would not consider o/b's for offshore use, simply because
    of where they are mounted, and because they are difficult
    to work on as it is.
    
    I'm not pointing in any direction, but a purpose boat narrows
    down the choices.
    
    JIm.

    In reply .9, you say you cannot run on the port engine alone.
    
    Why not, I have twin inboards and you can run on either with about the
    same amount on control. Did the manufacturer blow it and not install
    counter-rotating screws? What gives?
     Which way do you go in circles?
    

    Gordon - while you're dreaming about/planning for that offshore
    boat, I'm interested on what you think about the 22'Angler after
    four years.  That's the size boat I'm contemplating - and with a
    use profile very like yours - bass, blues, sometimes cod, a bit
    of gunkholing/exploring, sometimes alone, sometimes with friends.
    
    So if you were at the point of deciding on the Angler with the
    knowledge of the last four years - what boat & motor would you
    buy?  Be interested to hear others' opinions too - Grady White,
    Aquasport, Wellcraft, Whaler, Angler, Sisu... Cuddy or Center console
    or walkthrough??
    
    Jack

    
    Re: .11  I'll let Rick answer the question,
    
    But i went with Rick as crew when we towed him in.
    
    Kinda blew my mind but the dam thing just won't do it.
    
    JIm.

    Here are a few things I would check:
    
    1. As mentioned in .11, check if both engines are same rotation, if
    true - unbelieveable!
    
    2. Check that rudders turn both ways just as far, maybe he can't
    compensate enough on that side only.
    
    I have never heard of that situation.
    

    Who the hell is Bruce Sweet.....You can't pass the buck :-), you
    gotta have a $$ figure in mind. A 25' foot grady will run about
    65-70K with twin o/b and  hradtop, the 28 will go just over 100k.
    I love my grady and know it can take alot more than I can. The guy
    I boat it from had bought a 34' silverton flybridge and said the
    grady was a better offshore boat. I use mine from fishing the
    danvers river for bass to 40 miles offshore for tuna, cod....
    
    The biggest problem with the grady is while is has the biggest cabin
    for a 25 I have seen, it still is not really a good overnight boat. The
    new cabin design may be better. For a day boat you can't beat it.
    I would look into one with the new diesel i/o as opposed the o/b
    and see what you think. I am not a fan of o/b on a bracket, with the
    grady on the transome you get a door that closes the transome and
    lose no cockpit space.
    
    If you wait till april you can go for a ride in mine if you want.
    
    Bruce                                                        

    
    To, who the hell is Bruce Sweet;;;;;;;
    
    the guy said the Grady was a better offshore boat than a 
    34 Silverton Flybridge.....
    
    A little specualtion here:
    
    the silverton was slower.
    it has more sail area.
    can't be handled singley, (read Bridge prisoner)
    its 9' longer, and 4.5' wider.
    there are tradeoffs with the silverton v.s. grady.
    grady is a purpose boat.
    
    
    why did he make this statement...  reasons please..
    
    not raising hell here, but i would tend to agree with him.
    
    JIm

    
    He said the Grady was better in the slop and was more solid.
    
    Me....the 29ft ocean sports with disiels at about $130K looks
    like its got all the creature comforts, fishablity and at a 30knot
    cruise.......opps wake up.
    
    
    Bruce

    re: .15
    
    I'm still trying to decide on the max price I'll can afford to spend
    
    I was quoted a price of $35k plus my boat/trailer/electronics for the
    four winds quest 25' that I was looking at.  The boat list for around
    50k.  The problem was that I felt, giving the economy, that the price
    was too high.  If he had said 30k I was ready.
    
    Bruce, I just may take you up on the offer of a ride in the spring,
    less than 3 months away.
    
    Thanks for all the input
    Gordon
    

    
    oh ok, 
    
    i believe the grady is a v hull, the silverton a modified v.
    
    I can't make a comparison of both, i've never owned a Grady,
    from what i understand, the grady's do much better with o/b's
    just what i've heard.
    
    As for my preference, i would tend to go with the blackwatch 30
    rather than the ocean, but thats why they make more than one kinda
    boat.
    
    JIm.

    	How about the Whaler 27. If memory serves me right it has a 
    10' beam and a deep vee. Its also available as a walkaround and you
    can get it with the "Whaler Drive" outboard bracket. I don't recall 
    what the interior has to offer but I'm sure its at least comparable 
    to the others in its size...and its such a bargain ha, ha, ha.
    
    Paul

    Hi Paul
    
    The interior on the 27 full cabin is rather small.   Low headroom (I
    felt cramped and I'm only 5'10"), marginal head etc.  The boat's real
    nice, stable, dry and of course safe.  Biggest problem I heard about
    them was they weren't very fuel efficient so you'll get limited range,
    and they tend to be nose heavy.  I think you made a good suggestion
    with the blackwatch 26 or gw 28.  Another nice boat to check out would
    be the topaz 29 with diesel.  Has canyon range, supports a tower, not
    bad, overnight accomadations, 1 can handle it, and it has a huge
    cockpit.  
    
    Oh, to hit megabucks and have this kind of dilemma...
    
    Joe 
                                             

    The rampage 28 is also also a nice fishing boat and can be bought
    for closer to 80-90K with 350 crusaders, not sure if you can get
    diesels. The Blackwatches are nice, the 26 is somewhat cramped
    and is not a family boat. Also it is very pricy. I put the
    plug in for the ocean since we are dreaming here, oceans are
    luxury sport fisherman. Since we are dreaming, don't forget the
    Blackfin, either combi's or flybridges. The 29 is a great
    offshore boat, it is around 110k with gas and add 20k for
    diesels. If I were buying today I would give a good look
    at some of the more comerical downeast boats like Sisu or
    a Fortier 26.
    
    I could go on but whats the use.....
    
    Bruce

    
    While were on Blackfin, i was under the impression they were
    a nice offshore fishing machine.
    
    One came into the marina last season. Off course twin diesels.
    
    He came to visit his friend who was several slips down from me.
    Turns out its not the boat we all think it is, he hates it,
    the head deck is sloped about 30 deg., the cockpit deck is always
    wet, and so on. Maybe we should take this one of the dream list.
    
    I saw on at the show last year, 247K a mere pitence...
    
    by the way this was stripped.....
    
    JIm

    Jim
    
    I heard the same thing about the blackfin.  Very much like the 31
    bertrams.  Wet, and not much in creature comfort. But on the otherhand, 
    they can make good time in not great conditions for those long offshore
    runs!

    
    the gunnel seems low to the water. wouldn't doubt they do 
    make good time.  even the bridge seems low as compared to 
    the others.
    
    but its still too expensive...
    
    JIm.

	Please move this as needed. I looked aroung for a few minutes
	but didn't a a

		I currently have a 

		1972 16.3' Silverline
		1990 70 HP Envirude
		I just use it for fishing, fishing and more fishing.

		I fish Winni in the spring and I switch over to
		Stripers and Blues early June. This boat does get 
		me out there on most days but I do have to be carefull.

		Also one trip a year on to Lake Ontario for some Kings.

		I get out about once a week and would like a little bigger
		boat. I have been working on my wife for a new boat for years. 
		Well just the other day she said, BUY IT !!


	I only have about 10 grand to spend.

	I have been think that I would like a 

		21 foot   (20 - 22 would be OK)

		Walkaround Cuddy

		Step up for fishing. Livewell, ... ect.

		Not sure about Outboard or IO. I would like something
		no more than 5 years old.

		I am planning on trailering this boat.

	Any suggestion would be appreciated.

	I have been buuing the WANT ADS for a couple of weeks and I know
	this is a good source. Any other good sources for used boats.

	Also what makes of boats do you like. I have called on these
	makes CITATION, RENKEN, BAYLINER. I know that GRADY WHITE are
	at the top but I think there out of my price range. Does any of
	info on Walkaround Cuddies and some raking of best to worst.

 
					Thanks
					 Jim

Hi Jim,
Yes, a 20' walkaround cuddy does sound just about right for what you 
want to do.  Lots of room, seaworthy, and pretty eaily trailerable.

The only tough part will be finding a good one that's 5 years old or less
for $10K.  I talked to at least a half dozen people this spring who want
that exact same boat and price, but they're hard to find.

A used Bayliner 2002 Trophy is a good bet, and occasionally are available
in your price range. Good ones go quickly though, so you'll have to watch
the market like a hawk, put your name in at a lot of dealers, etc.  New
ones start at about $17,400 delivered, with a Force 120 and a galv. trailer,
just for reference.

Rick

	From looking though the Want Ads this is doable.

	Any pointer to boat ratings or which boat makers make 
	Walk Around Cuddies.

				Thanks
				 Jim