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| 941.1 | Anti-sieze | KAHALA::SUTER | Never too Hot! | Wed Jan 22 1992 13:58 | 20 |
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Note 60.40 Can weeds clog outdrive/burn up impella? 40 of 59
SALEM::GILMAN 8 lines 9-JAN-1992 12:00
-< Anti-sieze >-
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When reassembling the pump housing and the various bolts which hold
the lower unit/assy together I assume that greasing or putting lithium
grease on the bolt threads will reduce the chances of finding siezed
corroded bolts the next time I want to take it apart to do a water
pump. What kind of anti-corrosive/anti-sieze should I put on the
bolt threads?
Tx. Jeff
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| 941.2 | answer..... | KAHALA::SUTER | Never too Hot! | Wed Jan 22 1992 13:59 | 15 |
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Note 60.41 Can weeds clog outdrive/burn up impella? 41 of 59
15838::BORZUMATO 4 lines 9-JAN-1992 12:07
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anti-sieze compound, you'll find it in a hardware store..
JIm.
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| 941.3 | use anti seeize for everything | KAHALA::SUTER | Never too Hot! | Wed Jan 22 1992 13:59 | 18 |
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Note 60.42 Can weeds clog outdrive/burn up impella? 42 of 59
16316::GORDON 6 lines 9-JAN-1992 12:11
-< use anti seeize for everything >-
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I agree, use anti seize compound on EVERYTHING. I once removed the
tracks on an old buldozer the bolts were rusted but had been coated
with anti-seize compound > 5yrs previous. Once the torque was broken
the bolts spun right off by hand - made a believer out of me.
Gordon
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| 941.4 | Get it at the auto parts store | KAHALA::SUTER | Never too Hot! | Wed Jan 22 1992 14:03 | 25 |
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Note 60.43 Can weeds clog outdrive/burn up impella? 43 of 59
GOLF::WILSON 13 lines 9-JAN-1992 12:14
-< Get it at the auto parts store >-
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I generally use white lithium grease on the threads, mainly because
I never think of buying the anti-sieze compound while I'm at the
auto parts store. Maybe after typing this reply, I'll remember next
time. If the motor will see salt, you should try to stick with true
"anti-sieze" compound, which is a silvery paste in a tube. Don't
know who makes it but your auto parts store will know.
I've also heard it recommended to use gasket sealer on the threads
instead, I guess the theory being if you seal water out the threads
won't corrode. I'd use a non-hardening sealer, or the bolts could
be almost as hard to remove as if they were corroded.
Rick
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| 941.5 | Pays for itself after 1 use | KAHALA::SUTER | Never too Hot! | Wed Jan 22 1992 14:03 | 18 |
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Note 60.44 Can weeds clog outdrive/burn up impella? 44 of 59
GOLF::WILSON 6 lines 10-JAN-1992 12:14
-< Pays for itself after 1 use >-
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This discussion of anti-sieze compound reminded me to finally
buy some last night. Made by Permatex, $2.59 at the local
hardware store.
Rick
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| 941.6 | Good idea | KAHALA::SUTER | Never too Hot! | Wed Jan 22 1992 14:04 | 19 |
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Note 60.45 Can weeds clog outdrive/burn up impella? 45 of 59
SALEM::GILMAN 7 lines 13-JAN-1992 12:04
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I have some assembly lube. Is that the same as anti-size compound?
When I was in the Navy we used to reassemble the impellers on huge
fans by using white lead on the shaft/hub joint. But I guess lead
compounds could be hard to get now adays. I will check for assy
lube at parts store. Thanks for the hints.
Jeff
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| 941.7 | "Anti-seize" should say anti-seize | KAHALA::SUTER | Never too Hot! | Wed Jan 22 1992 14:04 | 23 |
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Note 60.46 Can weeds clog outdrive/burn up impella? 46 of 59
SALEM::NORCROSS_W 11 lines 13-JAN-1992 15:13
-< "Anti-seize" should say anti-seize >-
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Jeff, anti-seize compound will say "anti-seize compound" clearly on the
tube/package. I don't know if it is the same as an assembly lube which
may just be to allow something to slide together easy but then may wash
away or deteriate with time. Anti-seize is meant to be used where
moisture is commonly present and where you may someday want to remove
the bolt/nut. Certainly not to be confused with thread lock compounds
which are meant to make sure that fasteneres which are subject to alot
of vibration don't work themselves loose (like flywheel bolts).
Anti-seize compound is probably also heat resistant for use on manifold
bolts where the high heat will accelerate the deteriation of the bolts.
Wayne
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| 941.8 | Use as directed - read instructions for usage directions, etc. | KAHALA::SUTER | Never too Hot! | Wed Jan 22 1992 14:05 | 54 |
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Note 60.47 Can weeds clog outdrive/burn up impella? 47 of 59
ULTRA::BURGESS "Mad Man across the water" 42 lines 14-JAN-1992 09:03
-< Use as directed - read instructions for usage directions, etc. >-
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re <<< Note 60.46 by SALEM::NORCROSS_W >>>
> -< "Anti-seize" should say anti-seize >-
> Jeff, anti-seize compound will say "anti-seize compound" clearly on the
> tube/package. I don't know if it is the same as an assembly lube which
> may just be to allow something to slide together easy but then may wash
I think of "assembly lube" as being any oil or grease that
is used a) to get things to slide together b) to provide
lubrication at start-up, i.e. until whatever normal oil flow gets
going, so yes, it would wash out/away.
> away or deteriate with time. Anti-seize is meant to be used where
> moisture is commonly present and where you may someday want to remove
errr, I don't think so.
> the bolt/nut. Certainly not to be confused with thread lock compounds
> which are meant to make sure that fasteneres which are subject to alot
> of vibration don't work themselves loose (like flywheel bolts).
t'was my understanding that thread lock compounds (loc-tite
in various colours) are as much to seal out corrosion as to prevent
losening due to vibration; the latter task being better achieved by
proper thread pitch and profile selection, lock washers, "ny-lok"
nuts, etc. {proper to the application}
> Anti-seize compound is probably also heat resistant for use on manifold
> bolts where the high heat will accelerate the deteriation of the bolts.
I think this was the original intent of the slimy grey stuff
that Permatex puts out, somewhere I read/heard that its a suspension
of aluminium particles in ??????_something polysyllabic and
unpronouncable (-: (-:
> Wayne
Reg
FWIW, etc.
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| 941.9 | used on brake calipers | KAHALA::SUTER | Never too Hot! | Wed Jan 22 1992 14:06 | 14 |
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Note 60.48 Can weeds clog outdrive/burn up impella? 48 of 59
SALEM::LAYTON 2 lines 14-JAN-1992 12:28
-< used on brake calipers >-
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Silver stuff used when you reassemble disc brakes on cars,
specifically the big allen head bolt that holds the caliper on.
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| 941.10 | Not quite... | KAHALA::SUTER | Never too Hot! | Wed Jan 22 1992 14:06 | 27 |
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Note 60.49 Can weeds clog outdrive/burn up impella? 49 of 59
PROXY::HART 15 lines 14-JAN-1992 13:06
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There is definitely a difference between thread lock compounds like
Locktite and anti sieze compounds like Never-Sieze. The thread lock
compounds will do some sealing but you don't need enough to create a
seal just to prevent loosening of an assy due to vibration. As far
as anti sieze compounds go, don't think of them as something developed
for exhaust manifold bolts or even internal combustion engines although
that's probably one of their largest applications today. They were
originally developed during the Age of Steam and their primary purpose
to this day is to grease steam fittings and fastening hardware used in
steam systems so as to prevent galling and seizing. They are truly a
sealing compound that protects joints, threads, etc. from the effects of
corrosion which is accelerated by hot, wet conditions.
Don
which is accelerated by hot, wet conditions.
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| 941.11 | How the stuff got its name (no BS!) | KAHALA::SUTER | Never too Hot! | Wed Jan 22 1992 14:07 | 21 |
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Note 60.50 Can weeds clog outdrive/burn up impella? 50 of 59
BROKE::TAYLOR "New IQ test: 4-Way Stop Signs!" 13 lines 16-JAN-1992 12:43
-< How the stuff got its name (no BS!) >-
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This should be in the bit-bucket, but I believe the TRUEST!!! intention
of anti-sieze compound is to dis-allow thread friction (caused by any
number of reasons from grime to just being new and dry metal) from
causing false torque readings. The threads are brushed with the
anti-sieze and assembled, and while torquing, the bolt will actually
keep turning long enough to allow the true torque value to be reached,
before the threads lock up due to friction. Friction would allow the
torque spec to be applied to the bolt, but the bolt really is not
stretched to its intended tension. So we use anti-sieze to reduce and
try to eliminate the friction. The whole thing with the treads locking
up early is called --are you ready for this?-- "siezing!"
Mike
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| 941.12 | Maybe - I'd rather ski than type though. | KAHALA::SUTER | Never too Hot! | Wed Jan 22 1992 14:08 | 41 |
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Note 60.51 Can weeds clog outdrive/burn up impella? 51 of 59
ULTRA::BURGESS "Mad Man across the water" 29 lines 16-JAN-1992 13:11
-< Maybe - I'd rather ski than type though. >-
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re <<< Note 60.50 by BROKE::TAYLOR "New IQ test: 4-Way Stop Signs!" >>>
> -< How the stuff got its name (no BS!) >-
> This should be in the bit-bucket, but I believe the TRUEST!!! intention
> of anti-sieze compound is to dis-allow thread friction (caused by any
> number of reasons from grime to just being new and dry metal) from
> causing false torque readings. The threads are brushed with the
I used to worry a lot about clean_thread/dirty_thread
effects on torque settings. I think I decided that it probably doesn't
make a whole heckuva lot of REAL difference, the bolt gets to
be adequately tensioned anyway and any friction working 'against' you
when tightening it is working 'for' you to hold it against vibration.
I still clean off bolt threads, but its more out of hygenic habit than
belief that its necessary.
Errr, why torque specs in the first place ? HELP !!!!!
hints/clues: they're usually independent of the bolt length
or the application.
they ARE dependent on the bolt and nut
material, diameter, thread pitch and thread
profile.
R {slightly puzzled}
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| 941.13 | tech talk, lets ski | KAHALA::SUTER | Never too Hot! | Wed Jan 22 1992 14:08 | 37 |
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Note 60.52 Can weeds clog outdrive/burn up impella? 52 of 59
CSLALL::JEGREEN "Cuz I luv that [icy] dirty water" 30 lines 16-JAN-1992 17:20
-< tech talk, lets ski >-
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> Errr, why torque specs in the first place ? HELP !!!!!
>
> hints/clues: they're usually independent of the bolt length
> or the application.
>
> they ARE dependent on the bolt and nut
> material, diameter, thread pitch and thread
> profile.
When a bolt is tightened it is subjected to a tensil stress or "preload".
According to my engineering handbook the bolt's preload is directly
related [proportional even] to its cross sectional area. My handbook
mentions that a torque wrench may be used to insure that similiar bolts
are torqued equally, not neccesarily to a particular "preload". Obviously
friction of the mating threads and abutting surface will effect the torque
reading.
To measure the preload one can use the formula
P= [AEe]/ L where P is preload, A is c-s area, E is modulus of
elasticity, e is elongation, and L is original length. SO, by keeping
the c-s area and modulus of elasticity the same [ a pair of bolts with
the same thread size & material hardness], the bolts preload tension is
not effected by length because the elongation(e) is directly proportional
to the length. Therefore length is not a factor of preload. Neat.
I seem to get more use out of my degree for hobby interests than for work
related issues. Having cleared that issue up, now when do we go skiing ?
~jeff
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| 941.14 | Tuesday was a good ski day | KAHALA::SUTER | Never too Hot! | Wed Jan 22 1992 14:09 | 56 |
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Note 60.53 Can weeds clog outdrive/burn up impella? 53 of 59
PROXY::HART 44 lines 16-JAN-1992 17:33
-< Tuesday was a good ski day... >-
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Any good engine assembly manual will tell you to use thread lube on
fasteners that have critical torque values. It DOES make a difference
that the threads are clean and lubed or else torque settings will be
falsified. Even if the bolt seizes before proper torque is reached,
and even if this works to keep the bolt in place, it is still
undertorqued and could cause a catastrophic failure if the torque
value is deficient(even if it reads ok on the wrench). ALWAYS clean
and lube fasteners IF REQUIRED as stated in the assy manual. BE
CAREFULL, some fasteners do not require lube and SHOULD NEVER be
lubed. This info is always stated in the manufacturers assy manual
under rebuild/assemble sections. This is critical stuff that could
mean the difference between a long engine life and a botched job
which is too often the case as many uneducated mechanics have no
idea of what damage they are doing due to their ignorance. The
way torgue values are determined depends entirely on the forces
perceived to do the job at hand. When a mechanical assembly(such
as an engine) is designed, the force required to hold it together
under normal(built in safety factor) conditions is automaticaly
designed in. Horsepower equates to metal, there is only so much
life in an engine due to the fact that as horsepower is made and
used, over the life of an engine, there is wear that causes a
reduction in the available power output. When these things are
calculated up front in the design stage, fasteners are specified
that will do the job of holding the various pieces and parts
together based on the power output and a whole host of other
things too numerous to mention here. The torque values specified
are actually a part of the fastening system and the fasteners
themselves are designed to a certain hardness and strength so
as to be able to be used with those torque values safely. So,
you can see that it's an intricate system which has been designed
as an integral part of the engine and one should never guess or
second guess the system. If you have a lot of experience, then
you can sometimes make an educated guess as to the type of
hardware needed and the torque required to do the job. One
should only take this route if one can not find the specs for
a particular engine and one does not have the engineering
expertise or data needed to spec out the hardware. Having
said that, I will be the first to admit to using 'shade tree
mechanic' techniques on numerous occasions without any really
adverse effects. Just be warned and be carefull. The engineers
have designed in a safety factor that let's us all make mistakes
and live to ski another day...
Don
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| 941.15 | | KAHALA::SUTER | Never too Hot! | Wed Jan 22 1992 14:10 | 38 |
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Note 60.54 Can weeds clog outdrive/burn up impella? 54 of 59
MSCSSE::BERENS "Alan Berens" 27 lines 16-JAN-1992 17:35
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re .50:
My understanding is that most torque specifications assume clean and dry
threads. Use of a lubricant will result in overtightening the fastener,
unless, of course, the specification specifically indicates that a
lubricant is to be used. The tightening should be done in a continuous
motion to avoid an erroneous torque wrench reading from the sticking
together of the threads.
re .51:
When you tighten a bolt, say a cylinder head bolt, the bolt actually
stretches a little. The result, in this case, is that the cylinder head
is held onto the cylinder block with a certain pressure or clamping
force. The combustion forces try to push the cylinder head off the
cylinder block. If the combustion forces are greater than the clamping
forces from the cylinder head bolts, you'll have a head gasket leak.
This scenario requires, by the way, that the cylinder head gasket be
slightly elastic to compensate for relative movement between the
cylinder head and the cylinder block caused by combustion forces,
temperature effects, etc.
If you overtighten a bolt, you risk either tensile or shear failure in
the bolt. As .52 points out, one of the reasons for using a torque
wrench is to equally tighten all the bolts, eg, the cylinder head bolts.
Another reason is to avoid overstressing the bolt (or screw) and causing
failure.
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| 941.16 | rat on... | KAHALA::SUTER | Never too Hot! | Wed Jan 22 1992 14:10 | 26 |
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Note 60.55 Can weeds clog outdrive/burn up impella? 55 of 59
BROKE::TAYLOR "New IQ test: 4-Way Stop Signs!" 14 lines 16-JAN-1992 22:35
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re: .53
Do you write campaign speeches on the side? That was one baffling
recitation!
Does anyone know what exactly makes the "pinging" noise in a
poor-running [gas] engine? The answer will surprise a few of you!
Also, can anyone recall ever having seen a bolt or nut that had a
lock-washer and it needed torquing?
Great tangent...
Mike
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| 941.17 | rat-hole continues.. | KAHALA::SUTER | Never too Hot! | Wed Jan 22 1992 14:11 | 34 |
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Note 60.56 Can weeds clog outdrive/burn up impella? 56 of 59
CSLALL::JEGREEN "Cuz I luv that [icy] dirty water" 22 lines 17-JAN-1992 08:19
-< rat-hole continues.. >-
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> Also, can anyone recall ever having seen a bolt or nut that had a
> lock-washer and it needed torquing?
Any 1964-69 Corvair with a manual transmission, the flywheel and
pressure plate are bolted together using 7/16 x 3/4 grade 5's with
lockwashers. 40-45 ft-lbs I think. :^) I could rattle off few more if
you need.
I think you find any good engine assembly manual will state a torque
value regardless of washer configuration.
Which raises another point. There is a preload-washer I've seen that is
good for estimating preload tensil stress to within 15% error of true.
It has a series of dimples around the perimeter that are crushed as the
bolt is tightened. Measuring the distance between the abutting surface
and the bottom of the washer (using a feeler gage) will give you an
approximate value for preload.
Do any of the mods want to move this ?
~jeff
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| 941.18 | Is this the right answer? | KAHALA::SUTER | Never too Hot! | Wed Jan 22 1992 14:12 | 61 |
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Note 60.57 Can weeds clog outdrive/burn up impella? 57 of 59
GOLF::WILSON 49 lines 17-JAN-1992 10:09
-< Is this the right answer? >-
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RE: Note 60.55
>> Does anyone know what exactly makes the "pinging" noise in a
>> poor-running [gas] engine? The answer will surprise a few of you!
set hand/raised
Yep, and most people think of it as nothing more than an annoyance. Little
do they know they might as well take a hammer and beat the hell out of the
tops of their pistons, because it has the same effect.
The pinging is caused by combustion taking place while the piston is still
on its way up the cylinder. The pinging noise you hear is the piston actually
rattling around in the cylinder, as it continues its travel upward and the
"explosion" tries to force it back down.
There are several causes of pinging/pre-ignition:
- Poor quality gas. Low octane gas burns uncontrollably or more quickly than
high octane. Since the spark plug is always fired before top dead center
(TDC) to allow time for combustion to get started, low octane gas will allow
the full force of the explosion to take place while the piston is still on
its upward travel.
- Timing set incorrectly. As mentioned above, the ignition is always set
advanced to allow time for combustion to get started, so that the full
explosion takes place around TDC. Setting the initial timing too far
advanced or a screwed up advance curve will cause pinging.
- Hot spots caused by carbon buildup. Glowing carbon deposits can actually
fire the fuel/air mixture before the spark plug gets a chance to.
- There are other causes such as too much compression, lean fuel mixture,
engine running too hot, and oil burning. Motor oil has a very low octane,
and engines that burn oil will often have pinging problems too. Which
accelerates piston and ring wear even further. Usually an engine that's
both a "pinger" and an oil burner is not long for this world.
And RE:
>> Also, can anyone recall ever having seen a bolt or nut that had a
>> lock-washer and it needed torquing?
Sure, bolts that have lock washers still need to be torqued correctly when
intially installed. And bolts have lock washers still sometimes need to be
retorqued. I've had plenty of 'em fall apart because I didn't catch 'em in
time. Lock washers are not the ultimate in preventing loose bolts. If you've
ever owned an old "single cylinder" SkiDoo you kow what I'm talking about.
That's why we have thread locking goop and safety wire.
Rick
P.S. This thread locking/anti-seize discussion will probably be moved to a
topic of its own.
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| 941.19 | ex | KAHALA::SUTER | Never too Hot! | Wed Jan 22 1992 14:13 | 35 |
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Note 60.58 Can weeds clog outdrive/burn up impella? 58 of 59
CARROL::YELINEK "WITHIN 10" 23 lines 17-JAN-1992 13:08
-< ex >-
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Torque: : Whats happening when I figure it's time
to torque the head bolts on one of the various internal combustion
engines I own,...and during the process I'm on a particular bolt...
torque wrench w/ needle steadly moving up in increasing torque...
(bolt not moving as bolt has more torque than I'm currently
applying...) Then (torque spec is say 80 ft./lbs.) I reach about
70 ft./lbs...., 75 ft./lbs.,...AND Holy !#$@%! The bolt turned
abruptly (Holy !#$@%!,....did I snap it off is my first fear)..but
now the bolt is now turning when the needle on the wrench is in the
area of 70 ft./lbs.
I always wonder if I really wanted to perform prevenitive maintenance
at this point. This happen to anyone else?
/MArk (who recently felt it was time to torque the head on his
1982 Toyota with 229,000 miles on it and not one bolt
moved !, thank God)
Also, can anyone recall ever having seen a bolt or nut that had a
lock-washer and it needed torquing?
Great tangent...
Mike
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